Was Paul Saved
In my Bible Paul says he is "less than the least of all the saints," in Ephesians 3:8. If he was less than "all" saints, does he mean he wasn't saved? I have gotten things about this, but I'd like to read how you have been blessed with this.
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---willie_c: on 8/30/12
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Warkwick, you said "He (the Holy Spirit) confirms God's word which is not available for personal revelation". I agree 100%. God's word is NOT available for personal revelation and yet you believe that Paul had a personal revelation on the road to Damascus. Did anyone else claim to see and hear the vision or revelation that Paul had? No, it was as you said, personal.
Didn't Jesus warn us that if anyone claimed to see Him in the desert or in the secret chambers not go there and not to believe it? Isn't the road to Damascus in the desert?
---barb on 9/23/12|
Barb, indeed it is the Holy Spirit who leads us unto truth, but not via our feelings, and not to 'truths' which are contrary to his word. He confirms God's word, which is not available for personal revelation. When it says the whole world was destroyed by the flood does it mean that or can we interpret, via our feelings, that is wasn't the whole world and not all perished except those on the ark? When it says Jesus died physically in time and space upon the cross can we interpret that away from revelation if our feelings lead us to do so?
The only way we can know if we are in reality listening to the Holy Spirit is if what He says confirms Scripture.
---Warwick on 9/23/12|
The Greatest is the least among the Bretheren is written. The 'last' in the set of sacrifices was the One goat. He who loves and practices evil will be called 'least' in The Kingdom of God, John the Baptist was called that there was none greater born from among women for Baptising the Camel which it is easier for the Camel and the Wise Man as Solomon was shown in the long line of Camels brought by Sheba The Queen of The South.
---yohannes_estoniesque on 9/22/12|
Warwick, it is the Holy Spirit who leads us to the truth, not the bible. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit, He did not promise us a book containing the truth and nothing but the truth.
In fact Jesus warned us about tares among the wheat. He sowed the wheat and Satan sowed the tares. You can read about it in Matt 13:36-43.
---barb on 9/22/12|
Barb, if Biblical Truth (objective) is defined by our feelings (subjective) then it cannot be Truth, none of it.
Why do certain Scriptures feel right to you? Maybe because they agree with what you feel, or like. Why do other Scriptures leave you cold? Maybe because that which they teach offends your feelings? I find many things in the OT and NT offensive to my feelings. How offensive that God's Son, who loved beyond human comprehension, was despized, tortured and brutally executed with criminals. How offensive that evil people who repent will inherit heaven but good people who have not sought forgiveness will inherit hell?
Barb the Bible is either all God's word or it is nonsense, just a story.
---Warwick on 9/22/12|
Barb, I want to thank you for having this discussion with me. I know you are very convince in your mind that only what Jesus said is true and what everyone else said about the gospel is not. I knew that already from answering you before. I suppose everyone is trying to help you open your heart to the whole counsel of God, His Word, but nothing will make you change, so I leave you peace and thank you for the discussion, peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 9/22/12|
Aka, no I am not the first to put Paul's words to the test nor I will be the last.
In my study I wrote down everything that Jesus said about salvation and beside it wrote everything that Paul said about salvation and then I compared them. I did the same with the ten commandments of God, sin, righteousness, repentence and forgiveness. I also compared what the disciples of Jesus wrote about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus with what Paul wrote.
---barb on 9/22/12|
//I have studied the writings of Paul and when I put the words of Paul to the test beside the words of Jesus I found a vast difference. // ---barb on 9/21/12
so, you are the first? i'd like to see your study.
in your study, did you study individual verses or was it paragraphs in context?
---aka on 9/21/12|
\\Barb,...you get your information on Paul, and Jesus, from the same book...Paul is wrong, why...Jesus is correct?\\
---Warwick on 9/21/12
I've posed this question before, in a different way...
If you can trust early believers that Matthew is correct, why can't you trust them that Paul is correct? If they were misled by Paul and Luke, don't trust them at all, right?
But it can be narrowed even closer than the book as a whole.
If Luke's writings are false, then why trust him when HE ALONE says that the early believers wre called Folowers of the Way ??
And why apprehend that moniker as your own, if he can't be trusted?
---James_L on 9/21/12|
Warwick, I know that some of what is written of Jesus in the bible is correct because it agrees with the law and the prophets. Also, for me the book of John is Holy Spirit inspired as is the gospel of Matthew and the book of Revelation. I cannot read those books without feeling surrounded by the Spriit of Truth.
Jesus promised His disciples that they would bear witness of Him because they had been with Him from the beginning, (John 15:27) and I see and hear the Truth in their testimony. I do not hear Jesus in the words of Paul.
You will not agree with me but that is as honest an answer as I can give you.
---barb on 9/21/12|
Barb, if you are correct then half of the NT (that which Paul wrote) is wrong. But, and it's a big BUT you get your information on Paul, and Jesus, from the same book. If that which it says about Paul is wrong, why do you assume that which the same book says about Jesus is correct?
---Warwick on 9/21/12|
I have studied the writings of Paul and when I put the words of Paul to the test beside the words of Jesus I found a vast difference.
We will be judged on the Words of Jesus not the words of Paul (John 12:47-50) so would it not make sense to make sure that the words we are believing measure up to the Truth spoken by the Son of God?
---barb on 9/21/12|
Poor, poor Paul - 1900 years and still suffering persecution. The word used here, elachistoteros, is peculiar because it is both comparitive and superlative. Paul is saying that he is, without comparison, the least of the Saints. The Apostle believed this because he had persecuted the Church. His humility was consistent with two things: the Christian faith, and his confidence in Jesus Christ, rather than self righteous.
p.s. He wrote half the books in the New Testament, read them and make your own conclusion.
Acts 8:3, 2Corinthians 12:11, 1Timothy 1:15 / 2Timothy 1:12
---Glenn on 9/20/12|
Mark V, I believe that when Jesus told the young man to follow Him, he meant to drop everything in order to hear, see and learn from Him. The young fellow may not have been able to run a business at the same time because he would not have the time or energy for both.
We both agree that the young man did not want to give up his possessions to gain eternal life. So, that is a good thing.
---barb on 9/20/12|
barb, I really do not know for the life of me why you disagree. Are you not a person who believes in Jesus and what He says? You keep telling everyone you only believe in Jesus and what He says and no one else.
Here you mention nothing on why Jesus said to him to sell everything. Why did Jesus tell him to sell everything and follow Him? What would be the point if Jesus said nothing? Where is Jesus in your answers? Why even ask him to sell all and follow Him?
---Mark_V. on 9/20/12|
Mark, you said "What Jesus did was to show him that he was not able to keep God's commandments as he had said. Jesus exposed his lie by giving him a commandment to sell everything." I totally disagree.
You are focusing on the man's riches and I am focusing on his refusal to follow Jesus. The only way this young man could learn of Jesus' testimony was to follow Him. At that time there was no written Words that he could read and study to learn the Truth. That is why the disciples left everything to follow Him.
I do not hear Jesus exposing a lie, I hear Him saying that in order for the man to complete (perfect) what he had started he would have to take His yoke upon him and learn of Him.
---barb on 9/19/12|
barb, I do not know what you are reading but you are not reading what I say very well, and maybe that is what is wrong with your interpretation of Scripture, you are not reading it very well. You now said,
"Mark V, am I understanding you correctly that you think the rich young man could disobey Jesus and still have eternal life?"
Where did I say he could disobey Jesus? Nowhere. He wanted eternal life, but was not willing to give up his earthly possessions. His possessions were more important to him that eternal life. What Jesus did was to show him that he was not able to keep God's commandments as he had said. Jesus exposed his lie by giving him a commandment to sell everything.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/12|
Trey, yes I am a sinner and I repent when the Holy Spriit reveals sin in me.
---barb on 9/18/12|
barb, do you believe yourself to be a sinner?
---trey on 9/17/12|
Mark V, am I understanding you correctly that you think the rich young man could disobey Jesus and still have eternal life? If so then what do you think Jesus meant in Matt 16:24-28?
---barb on 9/17/12|
barb, you said what I said, how can you disagree?
"Mark V, I disagree. What I see is the rich young ruler refusing to take up his cross and follow Jesus."
You said he refused eternal life, and he didn't. He refused to do what Jesus told him to do and follow Him. Up to the time, the rich ruler had claimed he had kept the commandments. So Jesus gave him another commandment, sell everything, give it to the poor and follow Him, he was not willing to sell all he had.
---Mark_V. on 9/17/12|
Mark V, I disagree. What I see is the rich young ruler refusing to take up his cross and follow Jesus.
---barb on 9/16/12|
Willie, why would Paul have to make himself all things to all men? To the Jew, he was a Jew, to them under the law as one with law and to them not under the law as one not under the law...he was lying about who he was.
Jesus told the woman at the well that "God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Would you say that someone pretending to be someone else is of the truth?
---barb on 9/16/12|
barb, again you say "if men" God then saves them, and God nowhere said if men obeyed then God would save Him. No one lost obeys God, they do not believe in God, that is why it is impossible for men. You are missing the point.
Second, you said, the rich man refuse eternal life. He did not refuse eternal life, he even said he kept the Ten Commandments. What he fail to do was to give everything away, and follow Him. The issue was not the commandments for he kept them all from his youth, the issue was to determine whether he would submit to the Lordship of Christ no matter what He asked of him. And he couldn't submit, but very much wanted eternal life, he never refused that.
---Mark_V on 9/16/12|
Mark V, yes it is impossible for man to save himself but with God it is possible for man to be saved if he follows God's plan of salvation and not someone elses.
Jesus had just told the rich young ruler how to gain eternal life, keep the commandments of God and follow Him. The young man refused the Way to eternal Life. It was possible for God to save him but he refused. Notice it does not say the young man did not understand, he understood perfectly because he was full of sorrow when he rejected the Way. There is no salvation by faith and no grace in this event.
---barb on 9/15/12|
Hi, Barb (c: You said, "Why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write things hard to be understood? Doesn't the Holy Spirit know how to reach even the ignorant and unstable?"
The Holy Spirit didn't inspire Paul to write only hard things. The hard things are meant to bring us to more than we already have. You do not want a baby to hear only baby talk, right? The baby needs to hear what he or she can grow into, too.
Paul says he made himself "all things to all men", we see through 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So, Paul did start by reaching people at their own level, like Jesus started with that lady at the well, but then did tell her things she didn't understand . . . but she could with God (c:
---willie_c: on 9/15/12|
barb, I understand the word "if" very well. What you do not understand that I was showing you is, ""with men this is impossible"
and you are saying "if" we obey it is possible, talking about men, when Jesus had just said, with men this is impossible, and there is no "if" in that statement.
"But with God all things are possible" no "if" in that statement either.
---Mark_V. on 9/15/12|
Mark V, yes all things are possible with God but does possible mean it will happen?
Jesus used the word "if" a lot. For instance "IF the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" John 8:36 and John 8:31 "IF you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed" and John 15:7 IF you abide in me and my Words abide in you, you shall ask what you will and it shall be done unto you."
When we learn to obey the Word then it is possible for God to work with us and sanctify us in truth IF we continue in the Word.
---barb on 9/13/12|
Trey, Thankyou for a civil discussion done without name calling or hostility. I really appreciate that. God bless.
---barb on 9/13/12|
Barb, you contradict yourself, you gave (Matt. 19:26) when you said,
"To me Matt 19:26 means that the Words of God can take root in our hearts and minds "if we let them" sanctify us in the Truth."
How did you come out with that? Jesus answered the question,
"When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying "Who then can be saved?" "But Jesus looked at them and said to them "with men this is impossible," but with God all things are possible"
Talking about salvation. Jesus said, salvation is impossible with men, but with God, it's possible, because with God all things are possible. You say His Word can work "if we let it"
---Mark_V. on 9/13/12|
Barb, I believe that we can agree to disagree. I understand your point. You are correct, I do not agree. I am very much a Old Line Primitive Baptist with fundamental beliefs.
Lord bless you in your studies and understanding. You provided me with the encouragement to study. I pray the Lord blesses you greatly all the days of your life.
---trey on 9/12/12|
barb, i see. a type of replacement theology.
yes, a few got it and some continue to get it. some don't.
---aka on 9/12/12|
Trey, I never said that God was a God of chance. I said that He gave Israel a second chance when He sent His Son to them in the flesh. Matt 15:24. God went after His lost sheep and unfortunately they rejected Him a second and final time.
God gives everyone time to study and learn the truth. The time we spend unknowningly believing lies (to me) is grace. I believe that grace ends when we reject the Truth just as it did for Israel.
I don't expect you to agree with me, I just want you to be clear about what I meant.
---barb on 9/11/12|
Aka, the twelve tribes never did get it. A few individuals got it but Jesus took the Kingdom away from Israel and gave it to another nation. Matt 21:43. Those who are left of the 12 tribes today are still waiting for their Messiah. John 19:14-15.
Anyway, according to Luke the writer of Acts, Paul agreed to go the Gentiles....?
---barb on 9/11/12|
Barb, let me say that I do not believe our God is a God of chance, but an omnipotent God of certainty.
Proof Text #1: (Our God speaking)
Isa46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Proof Text #2:
Da4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Proof text #3
Isa14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
---trey on 9/10/12|
//Where does He promise them a "chosen vessel"?//
i would show you, but you have already invalidated that part of scripture. and, there is no sense crossing that barbed wire again.
//Why would they need anyone other than the Holy Spirit?//
i already said. the twelve tribes just did not get it. that was written to in isaiah. do you deny that too? or do you just not get it still? or do you just not want to get it?
---aka on 9/10/12|
Trey, I believe that grace is the second chance that God gives us, just as He gave Israel a second chance by sending His Son (His Word) in the flesh to them. We can take His grace and obey His Word or reject it and believe the words of someone else.
Jesus never said that grace would save us.
To me Matt 19:26 means that the Words of God can take root in our hearts and minds if we let them sanctify us in the Truth. That is the work of God to sanctify us in truth. John 17:17.
---barb on 9/10/12|
Barb, if salvation is not by the grace of God, I will spend eternity in hell!!!
Salvation by the Grace of God:
John1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The account of the rich young ruler teaches of God's grace:
Mt19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mt19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
---trey on 9/10/12|
Barb, In looking at Rev 123:17, it is my guess that you are focussing on the words, "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Keeping the commandments of God - Did Paul not teach this?
Ro6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
---trey on 9/10/12|
Aka, Jesus taught them while He was on earth and promised to send them the Holy Spirit afterwards. Where does He promise them a "chosen vessel"? Why would they need anyone other than the Holy Spirit?
John 14:26 "And the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you ALL things, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATSOEVER THAT I HAVE SAID TO YOU".
And Matt 28:18-20, Jesus sends His disciples to ALL nations, baptizing and teaching them to observe ALL things that He had COMMANDED THEM. They were NOT told to wait for further information from anyone.
They received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22-23 and could forgive sins. Paul never had that Power.
---barb on 9/10/12|
//Aka, you quoted Matt 15:16-17 but left out the next verses where He teaches them the meaning. My point is that Jesus always explained His Words to the twelve// barb
Barb, thank you for making my point!!!!!!
Jesus had to explain things to them after he said, "don't you get it?" Because they never got it on their own.
without help of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or a chosen vessel, no man from the twelve tribes would have got it!!!!
---aka on 9/9/12|
Aka, you quoted Matt 15:16-17 but left out the next verses where He teaches them the meaning. My point is that Jesus always explained His Words to the twelve. He did not leave them in the dark, ever.
In Matt 16:11 you leave out verse 12 where it tells us that they did understand. Mark 8:21 is the same story as Matt 16:11 and as already seen they did understand in verse 12.
I agree 100% with you that it is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth. As can be seen in John 16:13 and John 14:17 and the verse that says it all, John 14:26. Also see John 20:22-23 where Jesus breathed on His disciples.
---barb on 9/9/12|
Trey, my greatest opposition to Paul is that he preaches salvation thru grace and faith. That is not what Jesus taught John 3:3-8, Matt 19:16-21, Rev. 12:17. Paul preaches adoption. Jesus taught that we must be born into the kingdom.
For me, Paul does not measure up to the standard that Jesus set for His followers nor do his words agree with The Word of God.
We must measure every Word that Jesus spoke with the words of others to make sure that they meet His standards. John 8:34-36, John 14:23-24, and John 5:43-44.
---barb on 9/9/12|
//Jesus tells us in Matthew that they did understand. Matt 13:10-11//barb
no, not exactly:
Mat 15:16-17 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand,...
Mat_16:11 How is it that ye do not understand...
Mar_8:21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
Paul quotes scripture pointing out the lack of understanding that was to come. Acts 28:25b-36 Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias ...
Do you understand that this hard-headedness/heartedness was written long ago that they would just not get it? jesus said it was given to them and some would understand and some would not. but, it took the Holy Spirit to bring them understanding, and today it still persists.
---aka on 9/8/12|
Barb, my question for you is this: What is your reasoning behind your opposition to Paul? I'll ask it this way as well, what is it that Paul taught that you oppose?
---trey on 9/8/12|
Aka, I am sorry. I totally misread your post.
You asked why the disciples of Jesus did not understand Him. Jesus tells us in Matthew that they did understand. Matt 13:10-11. "And the disciples came to Him and asked why do you speak to them in parables? Jesus answered. Because it IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them IT NOT GIVEN." And in Matt 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears because they hear." Also see Matt 13:51.
The reason why Jesus spoke in parable can be found in Matt 13:13-16.
---barb on 9/8/12|
//hard to be understood (confusing)// barb
i muddied the waters?
i did not say anything about paul on pentecost. i said that the apostles that spent three years with jesus did not understand.
//Why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write things hard to be understood? //
Why did Jesus speak in parables? why wasn't he straightforward? why didn't the apostles understand jesus?
it was a truth that was hard to take in because of their mindset. the truth is not what makes it hard to understand. mindset is.
---aka on 9/8/12|
barb (part 2),
My concern is for others who might happen by and read your drivel. I'm protecting the flock, not tring to convince you.
\\I know that Paul was NOT there on the day of pentecost\\
---barb on 9/7/12
How do you know that? Oh, that's right. You got that from Luke. You know, the one we can't trust. Did you learn it anywhere else? Or have you embraced truth from a scource who can't be trusted?
You're internally conflicted.
Paul deceived the church, who approved of Luke. Therefore you reject Luke - well, somewhat
Good job sowing confusion
---James_L on 9/7/12|
James, I am done defending myself. Carry on if you must but if you cannot let it go then maybe it is not I who is the fool. Matt 5:22.
---barb on 9/7/12|
barb (part 1),
You oppose Paul and Luke as deceivers, yet borrow from them.
A few months ago, you expressed remorse for choosing this particular moniker.
That tells me that you weren't even aware that you had inadvertently embraced at least one aspect of their teaching. You hadn't even considered that no other writer of scripture calls anyone a Follower of the Way, and that you have nodded at Luke while spitting on him.
It simply shows that you cannot be trusted.
But I only bring it up for the benefit of others who might not have caught it.
That one little, tiny issue destroys any and all credibility for you.
If you would study, rather than looking for a conspiracy, you could avoid looking like a fool
---James_L on 9/7/12|
Aka, I may very well be ignorant and unstable but even I know that Paul was NOT there on the day of pentecost nor were any of his scriptures written at that time. Heck, he hadn't even been knocked off his horse yet.
You muddied the waters but did not answer my question. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write things hard to be understood? Doesn't the Holy Spirit know how to reach even the ignorant and unstable?
---barb on 9/7/12|
James, why does it bother you so much what I call myself? I am a follower of the Way, the Truth and the Life and I am following the Way to the Truth which will leads to eternal Life.
Did you attack me because you cannot answer the question or because you do not believe Jesus is the Way?
---barb on 9/7/12|
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// So let's be honest with ourselves and figure this out. Why would the Holy Spirit write hard to understand and confusing words thru Paul?//
very simple and easy to understand
2Cor. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
---mlchael_e on 9/7/12|
So let's be honest with ourselves and figure this out.
---barb on 9/6/12
Peter did not say Paul's words were confusing. He said they are hard to understand. there is a difference. to a fifth grader, a calculus teacher may be hard to understand but they would not be confusing. uou fit the next part of the verse quite well..."which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."
he does write things that they did not understand in the first three gospels. it wasn't until the day of pentecost that they got it, and do you think that was because of themselves?
so, now that we figured it out, we are honest with ourselves. when will you be?
---aka on 9/6/12|
why not call yourself a Follower of the Life ??
Why not a Follower of the Truth?
For that matter, why not simply call yourself a Follower of Christ, or a Follower of Jesus, or a Disciple of Jesus, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera
Why is it that of all the descriptors you could choose from, you happened to choose one that is only used by those whos writings you abhor?
Why not just call yourself a Branch Davidian?
How did you even come up with your desscriptor, if not from the writings of Luke?
---James_L on 9/6/12|
Trey, I am not advocating that any book, letter or person be thrown out of the bible. Everything is there so that we can tell the difference between the wheat and the tares but that is another story.
Let's say that Peter really did write the epistle that bears his name, even though many scholars say he was dead at the time it was written. Now, if we are believing that it is Peter speaking to us then we will have to believe that Paul's words are hard to be understood (confusing). So let's be honest with ourselves and figure this out. Why would the Holy Spirit write hard to understand and confusing words thru Paul? And why doesn't He write confusing words thru Matthew, John or Mark?
---barb on 9/6/12|
James, yes siree, I call myself a follower of the Way. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Someday soon I hope that you will see and understand so that you too can follow the Truth who leads us into the Kingdom of God wherein is eternal Life.
---barb on 9/6/12|
James_L, in thinking on Barb's position, it's the same thing Paul faced while here on earth. His Apostleship was constantly under attack. He compares himself to his enemies in 2nd Corinthians 11:21-33. The Lord told the truth when he stated:
Acts9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Paul fought a good fight for the name of Jesus Christ and he kept the faith once delivered to the saints. Thank God for the Apostle Paul! Most of all, thank God for Jesus Christ!!!
---trey on 9/6/12|
\\Barb, WOW, what a revelation! You're right!!! Let's throw the Apostle Paul out! And who needs Luke...Amen Barb!!! You go girl!!! \\
---trey on 9/5/12
It gets even better, trey.
Barb advocates throwing out Paul and Luke, but get this.....
She has over and over again called herself a "Follower of the Way"
Funny thing is, we can only find this descriptor in the book of Acts.
Luke used it once himself, then quoted Paul as using it once.
---James_L on 9/5/12|
Barb, WOW, what a revelation! You're right!!! Let's throw the Apostle Paul out! And who needs Luke, all he wrote was the gospel of Luke and Acts. Let's throw that out too! And what's with Peter calling Paul a beloved brother in 2nd Peter 3:15. He's obviously a heretic! His writings will also have to be thrown out! Since Peter oversaw the writing of the gospels of Matthew and Mark we should probably throw them out as well. What the "hay" let's throw John out too. He hung out way too much with Peter. Looks to me like the Old Testament conceals what the New Testament reveals so we'll need to throw that out too!!!
Amen Barb!!! You go girl!!!
---trey on 9/5/12|
John 5:31, Jesus says "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is NOT true." Then He goes on to list in the next verses His witnesses, John the Baptist, His works, His Father and last of all the law and the prophets (scipture). If Jesus Christ says He needs a witness, shouldn't we look for a witness of Paul's?
Who is Paul's witness that he is a saint albeit a lowly one? What scripture speaks of Paul other then the ones written by himself and maybe one written by Peter who does not call him a saint or even a disciple of Jesus? Luke? Luke gives two and sometimes three versions of the same story. Is Luke a reliable witness? Was Luke a disciple and a follower of Jesus or of Paul?
---barb on 9/5/12|
Well, there you go...if we say we are saved saints than by george we are. So everyone all together now..."we are less than all the saints". We are now saved and we are all saints...ain't we the lucky ones.
---barb on 9/5/12|
how many stop to think what a direct opposite that is of the twelve. the twelve always debated "Whos going to be the greatest. Whos going to sit next to the Lord. Paul says "Im the least." Paul never claimed to be the greatest except by inspiration in I Cor, when he had to prove to those people that his apostleship had become the most superior of the apostles. That he was not one step behind Peter and the others, but now he was a step ahead by virtue of his revelations. But as an egotist he had none. He had no pride in himself other than the fact he was the apostle to the Gentiles.
---michael_e on 9/3/12|
Response to: Was Paul saved?
(1 Corinthians 15:9) Paul speaks how he persecuted the church before he was saved on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:5). Paul was humbled that he was given the meaning of the New Covenant (Galatians 1:12) Yes Paul was saved and wrote most of the New Testament letters.
---Patricia on 9/3/12|
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Willie, I didn't understand the question,
"In my Bible Paul says he is "less than the least of all the saints," in Ephesians 3:8."
If he was a saint already as Scripture declares, how can he not be saved? because you asked,
" If he was less than "all" saints, does he mean he wasn't saved?"
Here is what I get, In light of God's perfect righteousness, Paul assessment of himself was not false humility but simple honesty. He knew his unworthiness (1 Tim. 1:12,13) Gideon felt the same of himself in (Judges 6:15) " ...and I am the least in my father's house"
And in (Is. 6:1-9) in (v. 5) he speaks of himself also.
"Woe is me, for I am undone!"
---Mark_V. on 9/3/12|
aka (c: you said it means "I am over at least one... :~)"
I just got this > In Hebrews 7:7 it says "the less is blessed by the better". So Paul, among other things, could mean every saint is more than he is, therefore able to bless him in the Holy Spirit.
In Galatians 2:6, he says he knew certain people were not real because, he says, "they added nothing to me." He knew that any child of God could be used by God to do him good to minister for him to be more like Jesus and with God and loving all people like Jesus wants. So, saying he is "the least" could mean all Christians can be good for him .
Thank you, aka (c: lololol
---willie_c: on 9/2/12|
//Hi, aka (c: You ask what I mean > I mean not only how do you explain it, but how has God blessed you with what Paul is saying?// willie
it has blessed me by knowing that i am over at least one... :~)
---aka on 9/1/12|
But, Cluny, Peter does say, "'To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.'" (Acts 3:26)
So, Jesus has come to bless us . . . in turning us away from our iniquities, not the kind of blessing we might selfishly seek without God's correction. I understand that when God blesses us through His word, this includes correction. His correction is a very important blessing.
But what you might mean is we are not here to get "blessed" by getting what is only for ourselves and what we may ask God for.
---willie_c: on 9/1/12|
willie_c:, the Christian life is not about being "blessed".
Jesus did not say, "Be blessed." He said, "Take up your cross and follow Me."
And what does the Cross say? "Come and die."
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/1/12|
Hi, aka (c: You ask what I mean > I mean not only how do you explain it, but how has God blessed you with what Paul is saying?
I easily see he was saved, as shown by Galatians 2:20 where Paul says "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (in Galatians 2:20).
But I keep discovering how others get blessed with meanings that I did not get. So, I'm asking others to share (Colossians 3:16).
For me, in Paul's case, I can see being "less" can mean lower > more "lowly" like Jesus (Matthew 11:29) (c: Paul says he is "servant to all" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23), as our example (1 Corinthians 11:1) of being humble. A servant can be less than all (c:
---willie_c: on 9/1/12|
Willie_C, I believe the Apostle Paul was expressing his feelings of unworthiness, his feelings of being a totally depraved sinner. When one of God's children feels himself/herself to be a sinner in need of the Saviour and truly unworthy to receive God's grace then that little lamb (God's child)is able then to realize the magnitude of the God's grace!
---trey on 8/31/12|
One of our friends sent me this > "I definitely don't take it to mean he is not saved. I think he is just demonstrating humility, as we all should. Each of us is aware of our own shortcomings (sins) , more so than the sins of others. Our focus should be on self -examination, not judgment of others. With that perspective, we will see ourselves as "the least" among the saints."
---willie_c: on 8/31/12|
if i am the less than the least of all jugglers, i am still a juggler.
it is an expression of extreme humility.
"I have gotten things about this, but I'd like to read how you have been blessed with this."
what does this mean?
---aka on 8/31/12|
The best way to be a leader is the best servant. Paul being the "less than the least of all the saints" means he was chief undeserving (GRACE) servant (or saint) of God. Paul also said in Romans 9:13 (paraphase) "If I could die (spiritually and physically) so that more would be saved, I would do it"
---Scott1 on 8/31/12|
If you read the Bible elsewhere, you will see that at the end of his life, St. Paul said, "I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness....."
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/31/12|