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Jehovah Witness History

What is the history of Jehovah Witnesses sect? I believe they have a wrong foundation not on Jesus Christ that they do not check themselves.

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If 'judges' or anything else were a reasonable translation..."- Marc

Translation? Did Jesus not say: "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?" John 10:34-36, Ps 82:6

"A "god" when you are with your people but you must...deny it in public." Marc

I think even you know that this is desperate, special-pleading, jibberish.


Saying it in all caps doesn't improve your argument.
---scott on 5/20/13

"As I knew...Scott never actually read Wilson's book [ 'Religious Sects']..." Marc

Sigh. Let's just file this one under "Fail".

My citation is from Brian Wilson's "Apostates and new Religious Movements".

Feel free to Google it.
---scott on 5/20/13


If 'judges' or anything else were a reasonable translation, why does the NW[mis]T have 'and the word was a god' for 'theou' at John 1:1.

Regardless of your irrelevant sidestep, the JWs must obey and follow ANOTHER, second god. Your dishonesty makes Jesus to be a "god" when you are with your people but you must try to deny it in public. No matter, JWs ARE POLYTHEISTS.
---Marc on 5/20/13

"The JW people hardly go after unbelievers but target weak/baby Christians to confuse & convert..." Adetunji

So they've never come to your home?

=^ )

Jehovah's Witnesses, all over the world, and in response to Jesus' command to "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations", do just that, everywhere and to everyone.

There is no way of knowing who we'll find. Certainly no attention is given to particular individuals. Oh, we might make a special notation of a crazy person chasing us down the street with a dictionary, but besides that... =^ )

"This good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world...and then the end will come." Mt 24:14
---scott on 5/20/13

The earthly sanctuary serves as a model of the heavenly. called a shadow

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle:

When someone sinned, they would kill an animal, and have the blood sprinkled on the veil. That sin was not washed away on the day the animal died, but rather stayed as a record of his repentance until the day of atonement, when the sanctuary was cleaned

The heavenly sanctuary then can be no different. The record of our repentence remains in the heavenly sanctuary until it is cleaned

Like the earthly, the day of the death of the lamb ( LAMB OF GOD PASSOVER) was not the same day as the day of atonement
---francis on 5/20/13

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
---micha9344 on 5/20/13

accepted by faith, and acceptable by faith

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Since Jesus had not yet shed his blood for remissions of sins, it was acceptable to accept it by faith based on Genesis 3:15

we accept his forgiveness by faith

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord,

peter places this in the future, based on the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary before he returns
---francis on 5/20/13

"Grabbed my Oxford Dictionary, went outside..." Marc (1)

1. Next time consider grabbing your bible instead.

2. Did you also have them read under the heading "God" in your Oxford Dictionary that the word God can also mean: (3) "An adored, admired, or influential person"?

And of course, "dictionary definitions aren't "opinions". Right?

This has been addressed repeatedly with not so much as a whisper from Warmarc.

Jehovah's Witnesses base their definition of "God" on biblical Hebrew and Greek. (Again), Strong's Biblical Concordance defines and applies the word Elohim (God) to "rulers, judges, divine ones...angels...the true God [etc.]"
---scott on 5/20/13

"Grabbed my Oxford Dictionary..." Marc (2)


Jesus repeated, and reaffirmed, what the monotheistic Jews believed for centuries before his arrival. Citing Deut. 6:4 he said: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:29)

Jehovah's Witnesses, of course, agree and believe that, while the term "God" rightly applies to others for representing HIM in one way or another,* there is only one Almighty God Jehovah.

Repeatedly Jesus referred to another as His God.

*"He will speak to the people for you. He will be your spokesman, and you [Moses] will serve as God to him." Ex 4:16, Holman
---scott on 5/20/13

"Grabbed my Oxford Dictionary..." Marc (3)


1. If JWs are polytheists than so was Jesus for referring to the Judges as gods at John 10:34.

2. Not only does the bible identify powerful/responsible individuals as "god(s)" for various reasons, secular writings like (some) Dead Sea Scrolls support this early Christian/Judean understanding of the word as well.

3. On the other hand, the trinity doctrine states that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. The incomprehensible caveat that follows (yet there are not three but one) is for them to explain. If the Father, the Son and the HS are each fully God...

...that's polytheism.
---scott on 5/20/13

\Also a record of all sin is kept\-francis on 5/20/13
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
--This is past tense
---micha9344 on 5/20/13

---Cluny on 5/20/13
Daniel 7:10 thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--, and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Just as in the earthly sanctuary, a record of everyone who has asked for forgiveness is kept

Also a record of all sin is kept
---francis on 5/20/13

\\When Christ by virtue of His own blood removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary\\

Since nothing defiled can enter heaven, how can there be sin there?

This is just one of the many heresies of Ellen Gould White, whose name adds up to 666.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/20/13

---Adetunji on 5/20/13
JW have no idea who is in the house when they come

---aka on 5/19/13
Christ paid the penalty for our sin on the cross, but it is in the sanctuary that sins are blotted out

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 9:12 by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these,...For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
---francis on 5/20/13

francis://.., they are aggressive in going door to door teaching all ..// In my country, I have observed that the JW people hardly go after unbelievers but target weak/baby Christians to confuse & convert to JW.
---Adetunji on 5/20/13

EGW: 'Great Controversy' P. 481 (1927 ed.) "When Christ by virtue of His own blood removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who in execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty."

bible: 1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again, when he suffered, he threatened not, but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
---aka on 5/19/13

---1st_cliff on 5/19/13
He had the holy spirit but when we talk about the ministry of Jesus, the ministry of the messiah it does not start until his baptism

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times

This points not to his birth, but to his baptism

Luke 7:19 Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?... tell John what things ye have seen and heard, how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
---francis on 5/20/13

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francis, it's truly amusing how you quote verses and speak with certain conviction of what you quote and say from the Bible. That's because, if I was not to know you through your doctrines and your blogs here, I would have been impressed and would have "converted" to Adventist.

As for why I say it's truly amusing is because when push come to shove and when you're being asked of your "faith", is Jesus Christ God - you can't even give a straight answer with a yes or no.

Yet you speak with "so much knowledge" (but honestly, only "head knowledge"). Even then, many of them are erroneous and unbiblical.
---christan on 5/20/13

Christian, Did you not read that Jesus "emptied" himself of His heavenly nature before coming to earth as a human?
As the "Son of man" He had no more power than any other person. He recieved Holy Spirit at His baptism enabling Him to perform miracles.
'till then He was a carpenter's apprentice!
He was not born as a human god! If you read it properly you will see that He was God's Son!
You don't seem to understand "Father and Son"!
---1st_cliff on 5/20/13

aka on 5/19/13
"The kingdom of grace... (Great Controversy, p.347).

and so everyone who had faith in God, that he would send his son to die for their sin, looked forward to Genesis 3:15

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham ( righteousness by faith) existed long before Jesus walked the earth

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law ( sacrificial system)was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So then the plan of redemption is not carried out until the death of Jesus, but those before the cross accepted it by faith
---francis on 5/19/13

"Why do I say this? Jesus did no miracles for the first 33 years of His earthly life because he didn't receive holy Spirit 'till His baptism,right?" 1stCliff

Really? Where does it say so in the Holy Bible what you have just said? Maybe you're saying this is because you never believed Jesus is God before He became flesh. It's John who testified to us,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

Rather simple testimony that Jesus Christ is God before He became flesh, don't you think?
---christan on 5/19/13

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---aka on 5/19/13
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So yes, immediately after sin right n Eden, the plan of redemption, the grace of God was revealed
---francis on 5/19/13

Cliff as I have been taught literature is to be taken at 'face value' unless there is some compelling reason not to do so. When Genesis 1:3 says "And God said" and John 11:43 has Jesus saying "Lazarus, come out." there is no reason to suggest these words were not actually said and no reason to assume they are not the power by which the events described happened. Hebrews 1:3 Jesus "upholds the universe by the word of his power." Word is a translation of the Greek 'rhema' which means :that which is spoken, utterance, "that which is or has been uttered by the living voice" Strong's Number G4487- in other words, the spoken word of God. God speaks and it happens!
---Warwick on 5/19/13

francis //I started a blog with the purpose of examining Ellen G white's writing.//

ooh...i missed that one...

EGW "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race." (Great Controversy, p.347).

Bible: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers, But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Pet 1:18-20).
---aka on 5/19/13

Charles T. Russell, once wrote a book called "Studies in the Scriptures" he said about his book,
"Not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself, but we see also that if anyone lays the Scriptures studies (he wrote) aside even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years- if he lays them aside and ingnores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into Darkness."
I suppose all the Jehovah Witnesse are in darkness since those books are not available. The witnesses have removed them.
---Mark_V. on 5/19/13

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instead of placing other peoples denomination in question i would like to see more people place their own denomination of the blogs.

A year or so ago, after hearing many accusation from so many people against Ellen G White, I started a blog with the purpose of examining Ellen G white's writing.

funny thing happened: The critics of Ellen g white had nothing to say when invited to be a critic

So lets start putting our own denomination on the blogs

I am 100% sure that the JW, Catholics, SDA, and Eastern Orthodox would not mind starting a blog about themselves, since they have nothing to hid

I doubt many others will do the same
---francis on 5/19/13

Warwick, Jesus was not in the tomb laying hands on Lazarus but some mechanism was there healing and awakening him. We know from scripture that both Father and Son command Holy Spirit power!
Why do I say this? Jesus did no miracles for the first 33 years of His earthly life because he didn't receive holy Spirit 'till His baptism,right?
After that He walked on water and healed many!
Holy Spirit power was also displayed at Penecost!
---1st_cliff on 5/19/13

Cliff thank you for your answer however I do not believe it answers the question.

We do not know the mechanism of God's power but we do know He says it and it happens. John 11:43 Jesus said "Lazarus, come out." Likewise in Genesis ch. 1:3 "and God said let there be light." "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness..." 2 Corinthians 4:6. I have no reason to doubt God brought light into existence by His spoken command just as He spoke the dead and rotten Lazarus into life again. This of course was not a healing but an instance of Jesus' power in recreation.
---Warwick on 5/18/13

Today I spotted 2 JWs. I grabbed my Oxford Dictionary, went outside and asked them to read from its 'polytheism' entry. The woman read aloud: "Belief in more than 1 god." I reminded them their bible says "and the Word was a god" (John 1:1) and "through and by [Jesus] all things were created". Thus, there is a Father god and a son god, a Father creator and a son creator, making 2 gods and 2 creators. Therefore JWs are POLYTHEISTS, BY DICTIONARY DEFINITION.

Just as Scott and David have remained silent, so today's visiting JWs. The only response I got was "That's your opinion." I patiently pointed out dictionary definitions aren't "opinions". Alas, the lass refused to grasp the logic.
---Marc on 5/18/13

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Warwick, Speaking things into existence was not literal, like "horse" and a horse appears etc, was Hebrew the language God used to "speak" things to be?
Scripture shows that both Father and Son use Holy Spirit (power) to accomplish tasks.
So speaking things into existence was in a "corporate" sense God through Jesus (who did His Father's bidding) using Holy Spirit power to bring it about! At least that's how I see it!
---1st_cliff on 5/18/13

Why would any good group want to hide anything about its past & current activities?
---Adetunji on 5/17/13

The JW organization is not a secret organization

Thier literature is freely available to all who wishes to have it

They do not attempt to hide thier teaching from anyone, if anything they are aggressive in going door to door teaching all who will listen what they believe

They have websites, and all are welcomed at any and everytime to enter Kingdom Hall

So i donot know what secrets you want to uncover, because JW are an open societty

All I want is for the gossip, and false accusation, wrong and fase information to cease
---francis on 5/18/13


From my copy of Bryan Wilson's 'Religious Sects': "Like Jehovah's Witnesses, members of Soka Gakkai are kept busy disseminating propaganda the main activity of adherents." (p. 11), "Witness theology had to undergo some CHANGE after 1914 if the confident predictions for that year were to be EXPLAINED AWAY." (p. 112), "The Watchtower movement has produced a translation of the Bible which favours its own exegesis. Complete obedience to God's will, and belief in his word, are conditions for immortality, and in effect this means OBEDIENCE TO THE MOVEMENT." (p. 114)

As I knew, and as he admits, Scott never actually read Wilson's book but likes to lazily surf the WWW for his "arguments".
---Marc on 5/18/13

Scott, hasn't it occurred to you that I have nothing but contempt for the evil organization you serve. I know it well, how it operates and how it destroys lives. For example we could ask Cliff to list the many ways it has negatively affected his family.

I am not obliged to defend my beliefs or blogs to you. That clear?

Now as to answering questions. I will be happy to do so when you give what I consider a satisfactory answer to the two questions I have repeatedly put to you. Those which you continue to evade.

I am waiting.
---Warwick on 5/18/13

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"[He] regurgitates pre-prepared quotes the WTS supplies." Warwick

Two words- Prove it.

Prove that any of the information (quotes) that I have provided on this thread appear in any WT material or were somehow 'supplied'.

If you're unable to do so you will, once again, be exposed for irresponsibly spreading misinformation.

How difficult do you think it is to find information on Christian Zionists or the sociological behavior of "apostates." Can you say Google?

Do you honestly believe that everything that runs contrary to, or challenges, your particular theology is hatched in the evil WT laboratory?

Take your time. We eagerly await proof of your accusation.
---scott on 5/17/13

Marc, you took the words from my mouth!

Many here give reasoned argument while Scott-the cut and paste kid-just regurgitates pre-prepared quotes the WTS supplies. I have also noticed that on occasion his answers have been complete quotes from others, without acknowledgement!
---Warwick on 5/17/13

Scott, you have never attempted an answer to my questions. The WTS hasn't given you answers yet?

Genesis ch. 1 shows God spoke Creation into existence-"And God said...." But Colossians 1:16 says Jesus is Creator, so there is a serious contradiction for the JW here. In JW terms who is Creator, God or Jesus? This is no problem for the Trinitarian as they are 1 and the same God. However JW's claim God spoke Creation into existence through Jesus. But Scott says it was Jesus speaking, (And Jesus said) just as a prophet speaks the words of God for Him. But this leaves you with both God directly speaking Creation into existence and Jesus likewise speaking Creation into existence.

Who dunnit, who spoke the words, God or Jesus?
---Warwick on 5/17/13

Having been a baptized dedicated witness for more than 20 years I can speak from personal knowledge about the "Society"
They deal in "idealism" which at first appealed to me but, Idealism, like Communism, doesn't work!
Example= They say that gifts and presents should be given from the heart and not from the calendar! (Idealistic) problem is, when there's no "occasion" there's no reason.
My brother never gave mom so much as a candy bar in more than 40 years!
After leaving I sent mom flowers on Mothers day and my brother said "Quit herassing mom!"
---1st_cliff on 5/17/13

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"The tenets of Christian Zionism neither reflect the intention of the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, nor promote peace..." Scott

And Jesus came to "promote peace"? Really?

Matthew 10:34 - "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

In the words of Christ to you, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."
---christan on 5/17/13

scott: Your last comment quoting John Hagee looks like a diversionary trick? It may not work.
---Adetunji on 5/17/13

"Original Thought"- Christian Zionist Marc

John Hagee- "The US must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill Gods plan...a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran..."

The Presbyterian Church, 2004, National General Assembly:

"Christian Zionism promotes a theology that justifies grievous violations of basic rights of people who are also made in the image of God, and is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ."

United Church of Christ, July 2003:

"The tenets of Christian Zionism neither reflect the intention of the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, nor promote peace..."

Whoops. No original thought there either.
---scott on 5/17/13

Scott your cut and paste politicking totally ignores the fact that many of us have had intimate experience of the WTS, its strange beliefs, and its pervasive constant mind-control. When a person leaves the WTS what they say agrees with what we know.
---Warwick on 5/17/13

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Ever had an original thought, free of any cut-and-paste idea from someone else?
---Marc on 5/17/13

francis://This question thus far has only let to gossip, false and information.// Do you want something covered about the JW sect? Remember some people in the sect may not have some information that shall be revealed here. Why would any good group want to hide anything about its past & current activities?
---Adetunji on 5/17/13

"Apostates- Kliever (2)


"...Even the accounts of voluntary defectors with no grudges to bear must be used with caution since they interpret their past religious experience in the light of present efforts to re-establish their own self-identity and self-esteem. In short, on the face of things, apostates from new religions do not meet the standards of personal objectivity, professional competence, and informed understanding required of expert witnesses."

Lonnie D. Kliever, Ph.D., Professor of Religious Studies, Southern Methodist University
---scott on 5/16/13

Apostates- Kliever (1)

"There is no denying that these dedicated and diehard opponents of the new religions present a distorted view of the new religions to the public, the academy, and the courts by virtue of their ready availability and eagerness to testify against their former religious associations and activities. Such apostates always act out of a scenario that vindicates themselves by shifting responsibility for their actions to the religious group...Such apostates can hardly be regarded as reliable informants by responsible journalists, scholars, or jurists...

---scott on 5/16/13

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Scott, "Others may ask, if the group is as transparently evil as he now contends, why did he espouse its cause in the first place?" Does Bromley imagine cults roam the streets openly displaying their dangerous beliefs? Of course not people are wooed and it is not until they are hooked/indoctrinated that the evil is revealed. Bromley lacks experience. Understandably some exJW's angrily rail against the organization. However that which I have read and those I have spoken to reveal scarred people, some of whom have never recovered. That their accounts of the evil they were subjected to substantially agree is testimony to the truth of their claims.

The tangled maze of evasive verbiage produced by the WTS proves nothing.
---Warwick on 5/16/13

---KarenD on 5/16/13
You may not accept thier answer as to who Jesus is, but I am sure they will answer.

Is it not far better to discuss doctrine than denominations?

It would be far better to ask " Who is Jeses?" and then let everyone post who they think Jesus is, than to frame it is a such a question, which as you can see has already stated that JW have a wrong foundation.
---francis on 5/16/13

"Many of them cannot answer our simple questions about who Jesus really is?" KarenD

Ask away if you like Karen.
---scott on 5/16/13

francis....Like most major denominations, JW have a website which can be thoroughly researched. Why do we need to talk to a JW when many of them cannot answer our simple questions about who Jesus really is? Their website explains their false doctrine quite well.
---KarenD on 5/16/13

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this question helps to equip in that direction.
---Adetunji on 5/16/13
i don't think do at all. It doe snot help, it fosters lies and inaccurate information
It is much better to ask anyone from any denomination questions, than to pretent to know about it. You want to know about JW, ask a direct question to a JW, and none else but a JW, how did it come about, when and why.

This question thus far has only let to gossip, false and information.
---francis on 5/16/13

It was C.T. Russell's father, Joseph Lytel Russell, who was so heavily influenced by the Millerite movement, being 27 when the Great Disappointment happened in 1840.
It was he and his 18 year old son, Charles, who started a bible study in 1870 using many books published by ex-Millerite leaders.
Regarding the break-up of the Millerites, one of their sprouts happened to be E.G. White (SDA). Go Figure.
Many disillusioned Millerites were easily led astray by these two, and other, human-reasoning branches. The Second Age of Enlightenment was in it's glory.
---micha9344 on 5/16/13

francis: I quite agree with your admonition that it is good to know the Original very well to be able to quickly know the counterfeit. I do not agree with your last comment grouping Catholic, Baptist & JW together. I know the Lord in the Baptist Church. The great commission includes witnessing to the "counterfeits" as well, & this question helps to equip in that direction.
---Adetunji on 5/16/13


In "The Politics of Religious Apostasy: The Role of Apostates in the Transformation of Religious Movement", Professor D. Bromley, Dept. of Sociology/Anthropology, Virginia Commonwealth University, explains that individuals who leave a chosen faith must then become critical of their religion in order to justify their departure. "Others may ask, if the group is as transparently evil as he now contends, why did he espouse its cause in the first place? In the process of trying to explain his own seduction and to confirm the worst fears about the group, the apostate is likely to paint a caricature of the group that is shaped more by his current role as apostate than by his actual experience in the group."
---scott on 5/15/13

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Charles Taze Russell, himself, was also a part the Millerite movement. This explains why the SDA and JWs have some common doctrines.

Dear Cluny While the first paragraph of your post was correct and I agree and thank you for that. This part is incorrect. Russel was born in 1852. Which is after the Advent movement fell apart into many different groups.

Beginning in July 1879 he began publishing a monthly religious journal, Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. The journal is now published by Jehovah's Witnesses under the name, The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom. In 1881 he co-founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society and in 1884 the corporation was registered, with Russell as president.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/16/13

Mark Russell rejected most of the teachings of the Seventh day Adventist church which is based on the Bible not the writings of E.G.White.

We teach the trinity, that you must be born again, that salvation is by Grace alone through faith alone. But like our Methodist ancestors we teach that GOD gave the Ten Commandments and we are supposed to follow them. We inherited the doctrine of Conditionalism from those brave men and women who held this truth against the falsehoods around them. Seventh day Baptists are the ones who showed us the Sabbath.

I understand you disagree with me. But falsehoods is not the way to prove your point. In fact I believe that is one Commandment you believe should be kept do you not?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/16/13

Mark_V: Thank you, I shall copy/store the facts in your comments below.
---Adetunji on 5/16/13

Scott, I prefer the Oxford Dictionary as it is the leading dictionary of English. I cannot see anywhere that it says 'apostasy' must involve an apostate in "ranting against it" i.e. their previous belief.

I would not seek out a sociologists opinion of what 'apostate' means, preferring the more authoritative Oxford, or even a Bible Dictionary such as Holman. Nonetheless your quote "in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation" does not agree with your idea that an apostate will necessarily take part in "ranting against it" i.e his previous belief.
---Warwick on 5/15/13

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---Adetunji on 5/15/13
No not at all.

The US treasury does not advise that it's adherents learn to recognize counterfeit bills. The requirement is that they become familiar with the legitimate bills, and so when the counterfeit passes by them, they can spot it easily.

There are too many counterfeit in the world

When it comes to the gospel, be familiar with the legitimate church:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Rev 14:12 the saints: are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now in this truth, Catholic, Baptist, and JW are the same: Counterfeits
---francis on 5/15/13

\\SDAs - 1860s - William Miller\\

Not quite accurate.

While there was an apocalyptic movement started by William Miller, a big part of it under the influence of Ellen G. White and others formed the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Miller himself never became part of it.

Another part is known as the Christian Adventist Church, which worships on Sunday.

Charles Taze Russell, himself, was also a part the Millerite movement. This explains why the SDA and JWs have some common doctrines.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/15/13

Mormons - 1820s - Joseph Smith

JWs - 1870s - Charles Russell

SDAs - 1860s - William Miller


Who will you believe? Jesus or man????
---KarenD on 5/15/13


"Greek apostasia, 'a defection or revolt', from [apo], away, apart, [stasis], 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation." Online Dictionary
---scott on 5/15/13

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Scott the word 'Apostasy' refers to the "Abandonment or renunciation of one's religious faith or moral allegiance." And that "without legal dispensation." It does not hold the meaning of " anyone who has left their former faith and begins teaching or ranting against it."

It could be argued that if you left the Baptist church without gaining the church's approval then you are an apostate.
---Warwick on 5/14/13

Adetunji, Charles T. Russell started the J. Witnesses. He was born of Presbyterian parents on Feb. 16, 1852. He was troubled by the doctrines and became by his own admission a skeptic. He followed the teachings of E.G. White, founder of the SDA. In 1870 he organized a group of six members. Later joined another SDA leader, N.H. Barbour, who believe Jesus return would be a spiritual return. So Barbour and Russell broke their ties in 1879 and Russell then predicted Jesus return in the flesh would be 1914. Nothing happened. Russell married in 1879 and in 1913 Mrs. Russell sued for divorce on the gounds of "his conceit, egotism, domination and improper conduct in relations to other women." He died in 1916. They are a cult.
---Mark_V. on 5/15/13

francis://..It is not practical to check them all and examine their foundation.// It is an advantage to know the background of who you are likely to share the gospel with. Christians' knowledge of Islam has really helped in ministering Jesus to them. The intent of this question is not "holy-than-thou".
---Adetunji on 5/15/13

That which overrides Wilson's opinion is the amazing correspondence of the testimonies of ExJW's. Their testimony is different on minor points, which in itself is a hallmark of reliable testimony. Wilson's view is a generalization but what outsiders know of the workings of the WTS shows the truth of the situation as regards the JW's.

Further support is given to exJW's testimonies by the fact that we know what the WTS believes and does, from their own documentation. This concurs with exJW testimony.

We also have the answers of JW's on these pages. We have seen their dishonest use of quotes, and selective quoting. Further we have the questions they evade answering.
---Warwick on 5/14/13

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"Does this mean that the words of former Roman Catholics about the [RCC] are not credible, either?" Cluny

I would say that when it comes to "words" or the vitriolic attack on ones former religious affiliation (any affiliation), absolutely yes. Professor Wilson was not commenting on Jehovah's Witnesses, and he wasn't speaking of someone who has simply left their faith, but rather, his comments focused on anyone who has left their former faith and begins teaching or ranting against it. (Apostasy). Take that with the proverbial grain of salt.

This is why I rarely comment here on my former life as a Baptist and what I personally experienced. And I experienced a lot.
---scott on 5/14/13

I have many family members who are Jehovah Witnesses, Uncles, Aunts and Cousins.

According to them, I don't know if it true, they have told me that Jesus isn't God.

He is an Angel (St. Michael) or Favorite Son
---Nikki on 5/14/13

\\I am spiritually led by a Holy God. things in God's Word are spiritually decerned.
---shira4368 on 5/13/13\\

And if you don't believe her, ask shira for yourself, and she will assure you that she's God-lead.

That should put your doubts to rest.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/14/13

What I have about the Jehovah's Witnesses is the founder was independent Baptist . . . fundy . . . and he got ideas the others did not accept. So, he started Jehovah's Witnesses. And he predicted when Jesus would come back, but Jesus did not appear. So, they decided His return was spiritual, only. And they have, at times, made what they consider to be corrections, but they claim only they have the authority to correct themselves, because no one outside Jehovah's Witnesses is a Christian.

But there are ones on their way out. So, I would say let each one speak for oneself! (c: And I know David Reed personally. He seems to have better things to do than be disgruntled about his past.
---willie_c: on 5/14/13

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**Disgruntled x-Witnesses credible?

"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. **

Does this mean that the words of former Roman Catholics about the Roman Catholic church are not credible, either?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/14/13

Lawrence, if you will read God's Word, the trinity is from genesis to revelation. how can you miss it? believe me I am not mislead, I am spiritually led by a Holy God. things in God's Word are spiritually decerned.
---shira4368 on 5/13/13

There are many denominations in the world. It is not practical to check them all and examine their foundation.

It may be best to look at what the bible has to say on how to determine which denomination is teaching the truth

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to Jehovah Witnesses, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
---francis on 5/13/13


Actually ever read Wilson's book?
---Marc on 5/13/13

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Scott, a logical extension of Wilson's argument is that we should take little heed of what the Apostle Paul, an apostate, has written. That which Peter calls "Scripture." After all Paul only wrote about half the NT!

And aren't you an apostate Scott?
---Warwick on 5/14/13

Thanks Warwick, I will try and search online for those books.
---Adetunji on 5/14/13

Disgruntled x-Witnesses credible?

"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. [His] personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations...he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader...he is likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances..."

Bryan Wilson, Ph.D., Emeritus Professor, Sociology at the University of Oxford, wrote extensively about New Religious Movements and apostates.
---scott on 5/13/13

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