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Calvinists Or Arminians

Calvinists say that God could save everyone but doesn't want to, and Arminians say that God wants to save everyone but can't. Who's right?

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 ---Love.wins on 5/28/13
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Warwick, repentance does not cause one "to avoid perishing in hell". If it did then all the Muslims and Jews will be going to heaven without faith in Christ. They too say they "repent".

Only the Christian will be in heaven and that's because of their "faith in Jesus Christ". Repentance comes together with the special "gift of God" that is "faith", which enables the sinner to "call and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" for the salvation of his soul.

As such, the sinner will indeed repent toward God for the sins he has committed against the Almighty and Holy God. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him".
---christan on 6/4/13

Samuel, if Jesus takes away the sins of the whole world, that meaning every single person, then Jesus paid the debt, and all are saved. But there is no Universal salvation for we know many are condemned already, who do not have Christ. They will be waiting for the sentencing at the Great White Throne of Judgment.
"He who believe in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
---Mark_V. on 6/4/13

Mark I quoted Peter to illustrate that repentance is not a tool to get a better life on earth but to avoid perishing in hell. We are sinners and God is just, therefore our just deserts are to perish in hell. But Jesus has paid the price and if we repent we are forgiven. This being so God's justice demands we go to heaven.

I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:19 to show that "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." Multitudes of Christians live lives of abject poverty and live under daily threat of violence and death. They may have peace but who would describe this as a better life? They look forward, beyond the daily horror, to eternity with Jesus in heaven.
---Warwick on 6/3/13

I belong to the "elect Church," as only the Church was Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, that is, Christ in you. I stated before, I was not already IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, because I did not exist before the foundation of the world. However God KNEW there would be an elect CHURCH.

Earthly Israel, and OT Saints yes are saved, but not IN CHRIST, as members of His Body/ bride. That which was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but kept SECRET, was ONE NEW MAN, made out of both Jew and Gentile, a NEW CREATURE, called today, the Elect CHURCH.

Anyone during the Church age who receives Christ become one of the ELECT IN CHRIST. We are called the Church of the first born.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/13

You might want to rethink about your "life on earth will be happier" attitude.

---christan on 6/3/13

christan, YOU just may want to rethink your attitude here on CN towards others, and maybe towards others altogether. You sound so harsh and legalistic, a sounding KLONG without love. Or is it a DONG without Love.

If things aren't EXACTLY as you SAY they should be or one should think, then you accuse that person as a heretic, pix or maybe it's swine.. and who knows what else children of Satan.

See, if you know more than your 15 memorized verses, YOU TOO would have found and KNOWN those scriptures I just posted.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/13

Kathr, though you reject the election of God, it is still in the Bible. God elected certain individuals to be the object of His love before the foundation of the world. He knew who they were and how many they were. He knew when He was going to make it possible to bring them alive together with Christ and convict them of sin and when they would ask for forgiveness by faith. Only those who were chosen by God (His elect) will be with him in heaven. You are either one of them, or you are left behind, continuing to reject the Word of God to your own destruction. I don't know to which group you belong to, the way you talk right now, you are on the none elect group. But things could change, if God changes your heart. I don't know that part either.
---Mark_V. on 6/3/13

Scott, fair enough...
---Love.wins on 6/3/13

Nothing wrong with using "Happy" in tribulations.

James 5:11
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled,

1 Peter 4:14
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye, for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/13

"Jesus saves us from sin so our life on earth will be happier." Love.wins

Agree partially, Instead of using happier may I suggest you use the word "joyful." Happiness is based on happings and can lead us to find activities both sinless and sinful to fulfill that happiness. However, joy is based not on happings but in the growing relationship with Christ. This is the never ending process that fullfills our joy even in troubles.
---Scott1 on 6/3/13

Luke 13:34""Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Or: "but YOU would not".

Here it appears that to receive Jesus takes the willingness of the person.

Or are you saying God is schizophrenic?

To convict the WORLD of sin. Does "WORLD" now also mean elect? How many words now mean elect in scripture? Only those that would dispute Calvinism?

So john 3:16, REALLY MEANS:

for God so loved the Elect that He gave His Only begotten Son, that the Elect believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/13

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 6:65 NASB

True and we free willers agree with this. The point is that the HOLY SPIRIT convicts and calls all.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

JESUS also paid the price for everyone. Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Calvanism denies the last two verses as being true.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/3/13

W - no objections to what you just wrote there. :)
---Love.wins on 6/2/13

"Jesus saves us from sin so our life on earth will be happier." Love.wins

Where from in the Holy Bible did you get this idea? This is what Christ told us, "In the world ye shall have tribulation...".

The apostle John then declared, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

You might want to rethink about your "life on earth will be happier" attitude.
---christan on 6/3/13

Christian, rather than posting condescending remarks talking to the rest in your condescending way, YOU answer the questions and scriptures posed to YOU.
First, WHEN did God change the meaning of" whosoever", or "whoever " to mean something other than "whoever."

If you were at an outside event and the Host said whoever wants to come inside please come now before I lock the doors for the night, do you believe:

1) Only certain people can hear and respond, because the Host is playing a joke on the rest?

2) all can hear and respond, but not all will respond by coming in.

Answer the questions Christan if you insist you are right.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/13

Warwich, you gave (2 Peter 3:9) and left it wide open. Peter is talking to (the beloved) about the elect, the 'us" those who came to Christ and those who will come to Christ, the promise is for them. God's promises are for believers only.
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward "us", not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance"
He can't be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destory the world and the ungodly, (v.3:7) "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
---Mark_V. on 6/3/13

Love.wins what does the following mean to you "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" 1 Corinthians 15:19. This speaks to the lives of vast numbers of Christians living in Islamic or atheistic countries worldwide who do not have better lives at all as they become targets for violence, imprisonment and execution if their faith is exposed. They suffer daily in ways we can but imagine, but carry on knowing they are saved from hell, heaven bound.
---Warwick on 6/2/13

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Jesus saves us from sin so our life on earth will be happier. A life of sin is contrary to a life of love. Jesus wants us to love God and our neighbor. We can't do that when we are mired in sin. Avoiding hell is very secondary to that. If our primary purpose is to avoid hell, then our Christian life is based simply on selfishness and fear.
---Love.wins on 6/2/13

Bro.MarkV, the people professing to be Christians and at the same time say they were the one who chose to believe in Jesus out of their free-will are only deluding themselves. Till today, these foolish souls of the free-will basket cannot explain the one simple declaration Christ made that completely call out their free-will to be a lie from the pits of hell. For if free-will was true, Christ would't have declared explicitly,

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

How does free-will fit into this declaration by Christ?
---christan on 6/2/13

Love.wins, you originally wrote "Jesus didn't come to save us from hell. He came to save us from our sins...." Now you agree Jesus saves us from our sins which saves us from hell. So what did you mean by the above?
---Warwick on 6/2/13

John 1, 12 - But as many received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name,
John 1:13 - Which were Born , not of blood nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, But of God,

Ephesians 2,8 - For by grace are ye saved thought faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God,
---RICHARDC on 6/2/13

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When God through Joshua spoke those words it was under the old Covenent. Under that covenant a covenant of flesh, God made sure ALL including Israel fell short of the Glory of God so that He cound, one day pronounce the WHOLE WORLD SINNERS, both Jew and Gentile. Now God can say ALL HAVE SINNED, placing Israel on the same level as Gentiles and offer salvation to ALL.

The Old Covenant was not the NEW, where God said, I will put my Spirit IN YOU and cause you to walk in my statutes. And FORGIVE sin, once and or all.

Calvinists are really STUPID if you ask me. They are not grounded whatsoever in scripture and truth.

No one could obey under the Old Covenant.

God only told them what God already knew was so obvious....
---kathr4453 on 6/2/13

W - during this eon that seems to be the case, although no one is in hell yet.
---Love.wins on 6/2/13

The Calvinist god loves to be unforgiving and inflict eternal pain on his human creation. He's more like Nero or Herod than like Jesus.
---Love.wins on 6/1/13

Love.wins, do you accept that Jesus, by saving us from our sins, thereby saves us from hell?
---Warwick on 6/2/13

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Christian, why is it when trying to make some point you always bring up OT scripture where God is speaking to HIS ELECT PEOPLE. The NATION.

Did God ever say that to Job? Noah maybe, or Abraham? How about Lot, did God say these words to Lot?

Did every single individual in Israel fulfill those words, or did the NATION as a whole fulfill those words.

Ans: the NATION as a whole. PERIOD...yet you use that continually to condemn each and every soul ever born, when we see every soul in Israel did not depart or turn away from God.

Please learn to rightly divide the Word of truth Christan.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/13

Christian, Talk about taking a verse totally out of context. To just plop down one verse out of a whole speech, is worse than a crooked journalist or politician. Are you saying only Israel's sins are not forgiven christen? Or are you saying that verse applies to all man everywhere? Is so, it also includes YOU. God will NEVER forgive YOUR SINS Christan....why, because nowhere in Joshua's speech to Israel is there any exceptions to include only certain people....INCLUDING YOU.

But we know Jesus died to take upon Him the sin of the world....yes, even their sin Christan. And all those sacrifices year after year, daily was only a farce?. When did God change His mind and actually forgive sin?

May want to read Isaiah 14:1
---kathr4453 on 6/2/13

Christan, and great passage you gave in Joshua, "you cannot serve the Lord" is pretty simple. They, the lost, do not have the ability to serve the Lord. It is impossible for them to serve the Lord. It does not say, 'You don't want to serve the Lord.' The very reason God said, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
---Mark_V. on 6/2/13

It's true God commands the man to repent and believe in His Son. But can a man who's born dead in sin and trespasses obey the Holy command from the Holy God? Let Joshua help you understand,

"And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for He is an holy God, He is a jealous God, He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins." Joshua 24:19

What the fallen man has failed to recognise and acknowledge is they are sinners, which is a contrary to the true nature of God, that He's Holy. Difference is God is life and the fallen man is dead to Him. Can the dead man choose to be alive to the Word of God (which is spiritual), let alone raising them-selves to life when they die in the flesh?
---christan on 6/1/13

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We don't follow each other's reasoning because our premises vary a lot. But that's okay...
---Love.wins on 6/1/13

Love.wins, I do not follow your reasoning. Hell is for those who will not accept Jesus' free gift of salvation. Therefore those who accept His offer and confess our sins, and follow Him, will be lead to heaven, and not see hell. Therefore Jesus saves us both from our sins and from hell.
---Warwick on 6/1/13

Jesus didn't come to save us from hell. He came to save us from our sins. Matt.1:21. There is indeed a hell. but it's not permanent. 1.Cor.15:28
---Love.wins on 6/1/13

Of coarse ther is no condemnation to those IN CHRIST. However MarkV, YOU were not IN CHRIST until you believed and received FIRST. Then those who are saved are IN CHRIST.

You always use verses addressed to those already saved. Those verses are not to any unregenerate person, including YOU. You seem to believe you were already IN CHRIST before you even existed. THAT is false doctrine, bordering on Mormonism. Mormons believe they pre existed before ever being born. Jospeh Smith took the false teachings of Calvinism and built his false doctrine on yours.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/13

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To be quite frank Christan, if there was no free will or free choice then the word "whosoever " used 183 times in 164 verses would not be used in the first place. Please read all 164 verses with the word "whosoever", and compare EACH AND EVERY VERSE using this word, (as this is what a good little bible study person does showing himself approved rightly dividing the word of truth) and actually what any normal person does when learning the definition of any word that is so unfamiliar to them. They use it in several sentences to get that understanding.

I simply cannot see this word "whosoever," whether in the Bible or every day use to mean only a select pre chosen people who have no free will.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/13

See in a sentence
Whosoever is defined as whoever.
An example of whosoever used in the sentence, "Whosoever wants to have dessert needs to finish dinner immediately," which means that anyone who wants dessert has to finish dinner immediately.

Here you can find thousands of examples in every dictionary/thesaurus all over the world. They are ALL consistent, including the STRONGS.

Whosoever will think for himself and not be brainwashed, will end up more blessed in the end.


But it appears even your choice to think is in bondage to some lie that you have no free will/choice to do so. That dear one is not from God.

---kathr4453 on 6/1/13

Samuel, the whole world will be convicted of sin. The whole world is accountable for their sins. No one escapes that rebellion against God. But to those in Christ there is no condemnation. Christ atoned for their sins. But God, because of His great love for us, the elect, made us alive together with Christ, for by grace we were saved. If He had that great love for everyone, He would have made everyone alive together with Christ. But He doesn't. Can you not see this Truth?
---Mark_V. on 6/1/13

Love, God does not create many humans beings for the sole purpose of burning them in hell. He creates them, God does not make them sin. God does not put a gun to their heads and makes them sin, they sin because they love to sin. God could show them mercy as He did to us, but doesn't. Why do you think we need to be saved? Because there is a hell. If there was no hell we would not need salvation, we would not need Christ, we would not need the Holy Spirit, God could not show He Love for us, or His wrath in judgment. Every single person who is going to be saved, they are written already in the book of life. Everything and everyone has a purpose in the plan of God.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/13

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"Love one another as I have loved you."
---Love.wins on 5/31/13

Such is the state of the fallen man that he expresses himself in darkness and foolishness. Kicking and screaming "whosoever" equates that the man has a free-will is fool-hardy. For if they were right than God be wrong (which is unthinkable). God explicitly declared,

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Even the birds are in His control, what more when He declared the man? This verse alone (and there are many others) debunks free-will and declares it a lie, that many will walk through the broad gate via this lie.
---christan on 5/31/13

Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Exodus 12:15
Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread, even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Really? Chriatan here are just a couple examples. Can you show us a verse that God CHANGED the meaning of whosoever to elect.

That Whosoever takes the mark of the beast....means only the elect will take it?
---kathr4453 on 5/31/13

Samuelbb7, "whosoever" does not imply choice. "Whosoever" according to Scriptures points to a particular people God has chosen, the elect.

Christ declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Does this sound like Christ was referring to anybody and everybody in the history of mankind? NO! Explicitly Christ said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me". That's the "whosoever", not your Tom, Dick and Harry. Your free-will theology is called a lie by Christ declaration.
---christan on 5/31/13

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To be "Born Again" is being Born of God. Those Born of God are "Begotten Sons" THROUGH JESUS CHRIST..

The Last man Adam IS that life Giving Spirit. There is no NEW BIRTH without Jesus Christ. HE IS our Life. That happens when we identify with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. ONLY that New Life is Born of God through Christ.

No longer I but Christ in me.

The MYSTERY kept secret but now revealed is CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of GLORY.

This MYSTERY was not revealed until Jesus Rose from the dead.

If perhaps you have ANOTHER Spirit, it is not the one according to Scripture.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/13

\\MarkV, the Wind isn't blowing where it may in the Presence of the Holy Spirit just zapping this or that and born againing them for no reason.\\

"Born again" is not a verb.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/13

MarkV, the Wind isn't blowing where it may in the Presence of the Holy Spirit just zapping this or that and born againing them for no reason. What you are openly admitting is YOU were not Born of the Spirit of the Life of Christ.

You leave out Jesus Christ all together. Your bogus gospel doesn't need Jesus whatsoever. You cannot be crucified with the Holy Spirit and baptized into the His death and raised up a New Creature resulting in being Born Again. ONLY that new Creature who is crucified WITH CHRIST is Born of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not die for you, or shed blood for you. YOU totally separate The Holy Spirit from Jesus in every way, making the Holy Spirit your savior. I totally disagree with your false doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/13

talk is all you freewillers do. Show us from Scriptures that explicitly says you "have been given a "choice" to accept or refuse salvation." That salvation is the "choice" of man is calling Jesus a liar when He declared: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Where's thy free-will?


It is interesting in you condemnation and point you ignore what scripture says. All the World will be convicted of sin. John 16:8 You ignore the passages that say whosoever come. Yes we have to be drawn and convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT. Christian we disagree on limited atonement, and irrestiable grace. You condemn us falsely.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/31/13

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Kathr, here is what you said,
"You make it sound Markv, like the Holy Spirit just appears out of nowhere to save people. WRONG"
What you are saying is that Jesus was lying about the Spirit.
"Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again. "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it come from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit"
No one knows when the Spirit is going to come to a sinner or where He is going to go. You insist you know. Jesus said:
"Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" In fact you say Jesus is lying, you do know.
---Mark_V. on 5/31/13

It is indeed a strange god who, as Calvinists believe, creates certain human beings for the sole purpose of burning them in hell, as if that would accrue to his glory..
---Love.wins on 5/31/13

You make it sound Markv, like the Holy Spirit just appears out of nowhere to save people. WRONG . "Jesus saves". The Holy Spirit ALWAYS points to Jesus Christ and HisWorks on the cross. HOW? Through visions? NO, through the POWER OF THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL. That power you talk about is the Power of the Gospel preached leading to salvation. Paul Preached in that power. That is where the POWER lies according to those scriptures. if you go back to Acts when Paul went to Thesselonicia, and Corinth, and every place, you will have the BASIS of what Paul meant. Not only Paul, but all the Apostles. The beginning of the Church Age Gospel began with signs and wonders....with the preaching of the Gospel confirming it was from God.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

Here is Paul's own words.

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

You are not saved by Power, or the Holy Spirit. You are saved BY GRACE, that is Christ Crucified and risen...this is what Grace means, through FAITH. You are saved when you believe God and are IMPUTED Righteous based on YOUR FAITH in Jesus Christ and what HE DID at the Cross to secure your eternal life IN HIM.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

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Gordon, talk is all you freewillers do. Show us from Scriptures that explicitly says you "have been given a "choice" to accept or refuse salvation." That salvation is the "choice" of man is calling Jesus a liar when He declared: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Where's thy free-will?

Now you know why Christ rebuked the Jews saying: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
---christan on 5/30/13

Yes Mark without the Holy Spirit we all remains lost.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The HOLY SPIRIT convicts everyone. Those who do not listen will be lost.

But if only some are saved how for sure can you know you are one? I mean after all you could just be fooling yourself. In Matthew 25 many will think they were saved but are not. Unless all can be saved no one can be absolutly sure they are saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/30/13

Kathr, you should read the passage again. It doesn't speak of signs and wonders. Not one word. What it does say, is that all who are beloved brethren Paul is writing to, all who are saved, should know of their election by God. And He gives the way they were saved, (the elect) because the Word of God came to them in power and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance. It did not come to them in word only, indicating that it does come to other in Word only and with no power.
"Knowing beloved brethren your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance.." (1 Thess. 4,5).
---Mark_V. on 5/30/13

Calvinist and Arminian theorys are correct

The problem is that Calvinist view faith as a work, and Arminians view God as an unloving team captain picking winners and losers (damned)

John 3:16 For God so LOVEd the world (this is His creation) ... that whoever (that is everybody) believes (free will) in him will not perish. Free will is not saying we come to God but that we surrender our attempts to self-righteousness for salvation by the LOVE of God
For Kath
Eph 1:4,5 In LOVE, (that word again) he predestined (choose) us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ. Paul speaking to believers that Christ LOVEs them like a son and daughter.

As Moody said, a calvinist, "God save the elect and elect some MORE."
---Scott1 on 5/30/13

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"For our gospel did not come to you in Word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance.." (1 Thess. 1:4,5). Without the Holy Spirit you remain lost in your free will.

---Mark_V. on 5/30/13

Absolutely. It was with signs and wonders and miracles that were first shown from Pentecost. You know, you see all this in Acts. BUT WHY was signs wonders and miracles necessary at that time? Are they necessary today? The Gospel of election was NEVER accompanied by miracles and signs and wonders in the first place. God didn't need to waste His time on such nonsense to those who have no choice or free will. That's why the Gospel of election is NOT the true Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

1 Corinthians 2:4
And my speech and my preaching (was) not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

OK here Paul explains exactly what I just stated. That POWER of God was working THROUH PAUL...

So our Calvinist people here really need to read, study scripture and stop twisting scripture. The POWER of God worked THROUGH PAUL, but ask yourself ...did that power saved every single person Paul came in contact with? NO! Even with that POWER many rejected the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

Christan, the thing with that Verse you quote alot to defend your view, ROMANS 9:21-22, is that, that same truth applies to all who would've been given a "choice" to accept or refuse Salvation. A person could be offered Salvation from GOD, and could reject that Salvation, and afterwards, GOD could then use that Salvation-rejecting person as a vessel of HIS Wrath. So, ROMANS 9:21-22 does not, without question, back-up the belief that GOD deliberately created some people solely for the purpose of damning their souls for Eternity.
---Gordon on 5/30/13

and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

---christan on 5/30/13

This is in addition to the first part of the sentence.

God chose Jacob over Esau, a promise given to Abraham and Abrahams PHYSICAL descendants to carry on those promises given to Abraham. The promises could not be given to both sons. Jacob was chosen to SERVE GOD and fulfill those promises God gave Abraham concerning bringing in the Messiah.

When God saved Israel out of Egypt, it was because they were ALREADY God's Elect Nation, and again fulfilled the promise to Abraham, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." Pharaoh cursed Israel and God reversed that curse to come on Egypt.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

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Isaiah 14
14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

This has not been fulfilled yet, since the time Israel was dispersed. THIS is what Romans 9-11 is all about...prophecy yet to be fulfilled. WHEN did Jews start to come back to the Land? Not until recently. Now on one hand the Calvinists want to say God is in control of EVERYTHING, and on the other, say that THIS is a coincidence and has nothing to do with anything. WRONG.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

Kathr, your correct, you are still brainwashed, you still belief man has power over God, then say,
" Even racism is brainwashing, until The Holy Spirit begins to transform your mind through the Word."
Yes, your correct, until the Holy Spirit begins to transform your mind through the Word"
The Holy Spirit does not come to everyone. He chooses whom He will come to. You can read the word of God and it could come to you in word only.
"Knowing beloved brethren your election by God. "For our gospel did not come to you in Word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance.." (1 Thess. 1:4,5). Without the Holy Spirit you remain lost in your free will.
---Mark_V. on 5/30/13

"Did God really choose some men to be damned before he created them?"

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

"Was Christ's death only intended for those who would finally be saved? "

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
---christan on 5/30/13

ALL of us at one time or another have been brainwashed to believe certain things. Even racism is brainwashing, until The Holy Spirit begins to transform your mind through the Word. . WHEN you are saved, and filled with the Holy Spirit, ALL those lies, and beliefs and racist attitudes come under extreme examination by God and are exposed, and now comes in REAL ACTIVE FAITH. Question, WHO are you going to believe/obey? You will NEVER be an overcomer.

The REASON you won't step out is because fear and suffering is involved. So you stick to those things man told you because YOU ARE AFRAID. You are afraid to stand alone. To separate yourself from ALL these things "to be made a vessel of Honor..
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

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#2. Remember the faith of Abraham? Abraham left, not knowing where he was going. Abraham believed and trusted God with EVERYTHING. Obeyed with Isaac. Do you have the faith of Abraham? THAT'S is the kind of FAITH, that is "saving FAITH", Where God IMPUTED righteousness to Abraham. There was NO special gift of faith given to Abraham, just OBEDIENCE to what God asked. And that OBEDIENCE was active in Abraham's total willingness and personal involvement and was GREATLY REWARDED, and he was made a Vessel of Honor, fit for the Master's use. God tells us EXACTLY what kind of faith is saving faith. He says it's the FAITH OF ABRAHAM, and it is not a supernatural, faith. his first failure in bringing in Ishmael PROVES THAT POINT.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/13

Love, you got the first part right. But the second part is wrong. I will tell you why, You said,
"Arminians say that God wants to save everyone but can't. Who's right?"
The God of the Bible can do anything He so desires and does what He so desires. After all He is God. There are things God cannot do.
He cannot go against His own Word.
He cannot lie
He never changes
He cannot go against His own nature, character or attributes.
He cannot sin because He is the Law.
Sinful man cannot stop God from doing what He wants to do. All sinful man deserve hell. The miracle is that God saves some, for if He wanted, He could save none.
---Mark_V. on 5/30/13

Calvanism says that GOD hates most people he created and he wants to torture them for all eternity. That he only loves a few. But the Bible says.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/30/13

Acts 13:48

For the word ordained is used here. Check your strongs and compare verses using that exact Hebrew word 5021, compared to other verses using ordained with different Hebrew words meaning different things.

This we can be does not say FOREordained...meaning then predestined.

If GOD wanted to make salvation a FOREORDAINED event, GOD would clearly have used the correct word associated with predestination.

JESUS was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world to die for the sin of man. We certainly have no problem understanding this. Also hat God used the correct word.

Only "FORE" .means beforehand. Ordained does not mean beforehand.
---kathr4453 on 5/29/13

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A few facts:

James Arminius was uneasy with some of the teachings that had come to be identified with Calvinism. Did God really choose some men to be damned before he created them? Was Christ's death only intended for those who would finally be saved? Does God exercise his sovereignty so fully that man has no choice in his own salvation? As the professor of theology at Leyden, Arminius laid out Scripture readings in such a way as to cast doubt on Calvin's theology (which was heavily indebted to Augustine of Hippo).
He modified his theology to say that man can respond to the gospel and has real choice in his ultimate destiny.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/29/13

Francis, yes, only a SINNER can repent of SIN.

Using Romans 9 as a basis that a sinner does not have the ability to repent is using Romans 9 in a way God did not intend.

In Timothy, it is US who chose to depart and separate yourself from what? and THEN God will make YOU a vessel of Honor. That is conditional as well.

Romans 9 is strictly talking to JEWS about JEWS. God chose THAT NATION , that lump of CLAY...remember clay has to do with earthly man, as Adam was made out of Clay.

GOD FORMED "the Nation "of Israel.

This does not apply to individual humans as only ADAM and ISRAEL were formed.

God also crushed that clay and will form it again, that is , "the NATION "ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 5/29/13

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant: I have formed thee, thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

God will NEVER forget Israel. And if you care to continue reading Romans 11 ...the conclusion of Romans 9, you will see God will NEVER forget His Promises to Israel the NATION.

TODAY is the age of Grace where all individual men, both Jew and Gentile may equally repent, receiving Christ, becoming a member of the CHURCH, His Body, a NEW CREATURE, who is not the NATION Israel. We have DIFFERENT promises and purpose.,
---kathr4453 on 5/29/13

There's hardly anything to debate according to the Word of God. Salvation is particular to only those whom God has chosen/elected. It's been explicitly explained.

What is written in the Holy Bible is of actions that demonstrates what faith does and what faithlessness is. It's clear and explicit that the "faith" that saves the sinner is a "gift from God" and no one can demand from Him that gift. Hence, salvation by grace.

Salvation is only for the elect of God, because one particular verse in Acts 13:48 says so, "...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Yes, that is, those who believe in Christ were ordained to believe, not because they chose but God chose them.
---christan on 5/29/13

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---Love.wins on 5/28/13
Both are wrong

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
---francis on 5/29/13

---Love.wins on 5/28/13
Both are wrong

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

All could be saved, if they didnot harden thier hearts

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
---francis on 5/29/13

If it is true that Calvinist believe God does not want to save everyone, they are wrong.
If it is true that Arminians believe that God can't save everyone, they are wrong.
It is my belief that God gave humans the ability to choose, part of us being created in His image. That ability has been so corrupted by sin, the culmination of our thoughts and actions against a Holy Creator, that it is impossible to come to him without divine intervention.
This divine intervention comes to us from His Word being sent through His people by the Holy Spirit.
God already knows who are His while we wait and find out who accepts the Message of Salvation, Jesus Christ.
---micha9344 on 5/29/13

Love wins. Love is ready for anyone, but not all are won to love. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

Sin loses. Ones with the nature of sin do not have the nature to choose God. "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) If all are equal, why don't all sinners make the same equal choice, about Jesus, when they know of their choice?
---willie_c: on 5/29/13

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Neither is correct. And we need to be clear that it is not an either or.

I believe the Arminians believe one can lose their salvation. WRONG. So both these doctrines go deeper than just the blog question here.

God has done EVERYTHING for the salvation of man. And God is able to save to the utmost those who put their faith in Him. Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. And Jesus is the ONLY way of Sanctification, and Glorification. All else are's efforts. In Christ we are a Perfect 777. When you understand Jesus is the SURETY of the New Covenant, you will have that assurance of salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/29/13

---Leon on 5/28/13


They are both forms of Western Christianity, therefore are based on false assumptions and make the wrong approaches, to say nothing about morbidly infected with Filioquism.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/28/13

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