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When Will The Rapture Occur

I was raised understanding that the rapture would be sometime AFTER the tribulation. According to the Left Behind books, the rapture happens first, then there is the rise of the anti-Christ. Matthew 24 still sounds to me that the rapture takes place AFTER the Tribulation. Any thoughts?

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Warwick, after reading a reference you gave I want to point out, this is one example of word misuse by NAS.
You examined a NAS Exhaustive Concordance.
This "reference" book only gave part of the meaning of the word.
Hope this helps
---Elder on 10/15/13

Shira, 'hacker' is not Scriptural, but it demonstrates how quickly meanings can change.

Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary shows 'replenish' meant "To fill, to stock with numbers or abundance" i.e. Genesis 1:28 "...fill the earth." The KJV OT was translated from Hebrew texts where male (fill) was correctly translated as replenish (fill). Therefore the Word of God has not changed as Hebrew 'male' still means fill. However in retaining 'replenish' the KJV is no longer true to Gods word as 'replenish' has come to mean 'refill' giving the opposite meaning of what Gods word in Hebrew meant.

I have explained the facts in detail, not my opinion, and will not be discussing it further with you as you offer only opinions.
---Warwick on 10/15/13

\\well, warwick, the word hacker did not come from God. God's Word never changes. hacker is not holy by any means.
---shira4368 on 10/15/13\\

shira, are you deliberately misunderstanding what Warwick is saying, or are you totally unable to understand him to start with?

Either way does not say well for you.

You said "the word hacker did not come from God." Do you think the KJV was dictated by God? If so, why was it revised FIVE TIMES before 1904? (I'm not counting the ERV and ASV in this.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/16/13

\\This is why the world has tens of thousands of different denominational churches in the world each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living, and interpreations of the bible.\\

And almost every one of them split off directly or indirectly from the Orthodox Church, the world's only PRE-denominational church.

And every one of them tried unsuccessfully to reinvent the wheel.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/16/13

Steven, what foolishness to post something not even in this blog. Now that is foolishness. "For the message of the cross to them that perish is foolisness, but to us, who are being saved, it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18).
---Mark_V. on 10/16/13

Well this blog has morphed into a KJV only discussion.

I enjoy and still read the KJV and understand it easily. Yet that is not true for everyone. I also like the NASB and NKV. The amplified makes a good study Bible. I have read all of these plus the NIV, RSV and the Jerusalem Bible.

I do not have a problem with good Bible translations but with Bibles that use Dynamic Translations and paraphrases I look on them more as Commentary Bibles. Such as Phillips and Good News. I like to compare the Phillips New Testament when I am studying on topics.

I am mostly glad when people actually read the Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/16/13

Mark_V.: a reply to his 9/22/13 post...

Again, what foolsihness.
---Steveng on 10/15/13

It is very difficult to understand the Word of God using worldly knowledge. One cannot understand spiritual knowledge using worldly knowledge. Today's christians are too educated to understand spiritual knowledge. This is why the world has tens of thousands of different denominational churches in the world each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living, and interpreations of the bible. This is why the world has a plethora of books each claiming they have the spiritual knowledge when in reality they interpret the bible using worldly knowledge - without genuine love.
---Steveng on 10/15/13

well, warwick, the word hacker did not come from God. God's Word never changes. hacker is not holy by any means.
---shira4368 on 10/15/13

Shira, over time word meanings change. The computer term 'hacker' no longer means what it originally meant. If we use 'hacker' in its original sense most people today would not understand what we mean. Why do that?

Consider Psalm 23:1,2 ESV
"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters"

Now read a 13th century version in English.
"Lauerd me steres, noght wante sal me:
In stede of fode are me louked he.
He fed me ouer watre ofe fode,"

What should we read, this version or the modern one?

The KJV was correct English when translated hundreds of years ago but is now heading the way of the 13th century version.
---Warwick on 10/15/13

\\ you have no spiritual insight\\

Why do you say that, shira?

Because he questions your axioms and assumed certainties?

I pointed out one error the KJV made in calling bats birds. Another is in Daniel 3 when the translators put in musical instruments that didn't exist in ancient Babylon.

You never replied to this. Why?

One thing the Bible makes clear in ANY translation in ANY language is that mere mortals have never done ANYTHING for God and gotten it 100% right. Why should the KJV be any different?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/15/13

\\Do you honestly believe God would speak His Word that would be outdated.\\

Are you saying that you believe that God spoke the KJV, shira?

If so, WHY do you believe this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/15/13

Warwick...The problem with current language is that many words used today would be considered filth a few years ago.
---KarenD on 10/15/13

warwick, just because man has changed the Word of God, that does not mean my kjv is outdated. Do you honestly believe God would speak His Word that would be outdated. you may be educated but you have no spiritual insight. God is the same always, always
---shira5468 on 10/15/13

Christan, when the KJV was translated it was a good version but since then the meaning of words has changed leaving the KJV in error for this reason. All of it man's problem, and no fault of the Holy Spirit. I trust you comprehend the difference. This is what I have previously written. This problem could be fixed by replacing the now incorrect archaic words with the correct modern words. However this is very unlikely to be done as some people are as entranced by the archaic words of the KJV as some Roman Catholics are entranced by the mass in Latin.
---Warwick on 10/14/13

Bro. Christan, you are perfectly correct. I was only speaking for the word mansion. Why it is used in Scripture differently in some revisions. Jesus did speak figuratively almost all the time. We really have no clue what it's going to be like when we get there, with our brains we can only guess.
The same holds true for those going to hell. Jesus spoke so much of hell, and the discriptions given are graphic images and symbols. If the images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.
---Mark_V. on 10/15/13

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Sandy it should not make a lot of difference but it has. Pretrib followers have attacked post trib as not true Christians. People in China and other countries have lost faith because they underwent persecution that they had been taught would not happen.

Up until Darby and Scoffield Protestants generally taught the Pope and the RCC was the last day antichrist and it's system. But by adopting futurism which was a RCC theology that teaching ended for many.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/15/13

Good point, Sandy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/13

I only recently found out that the Bible does not mention that Joseph and Mary rode a donkey!
---Warwick on 10/14/13

Brother MarkV, with the love that's found in Christ Jesus, the descriptions given by our Savior are meant to be figurative. We are just mere finite beings with no idea of His spiritual kingdom that's eternal.

John 14:2 is to paint us a picture of how wonderful God's Kingdom is and does not by any means tell us that there will be physical mansions made of bricks. It's only use to describe the majesty and grandeur of His Kingdom.

Warwick - to say that there are errors in the KJV (which happens to be the first English translation from it's original source) is to say we've been lied to by the Holy Spirit, who happens to be the inspiration behind the Word of God. Do re-consider your stance.
---christan on 10/14/13

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So can I ask you this question, what difference does it make? If you are about the Father's business when it happens it happens. Keep your mind focused on Christ and your service to Him and he will take care of you no matter what.
---Sandy on 10/14/13

shira, you DID say that they were not rich.

What other meaning can these words of yours have?

**since they were not rich **

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/14/13

Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mark E and kathr. This verse does not show the Church escaped the Tribulation but it came out of or through the Great Tribulation. Also both have stated the Dispenstionalist argument tha the Church and Isreal are two different entitites. Where as I agree with the Covenant Theologians that the Church is the New Israel which allows the 144,000 to be part of the Church.

Dear Wivv I believe the Church goes through the Tribulation. But our salvation is not based on being correct here. It just helps us to prepare.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/14/13

Shira, you are right when
"You said they probably were why were they riding on a donkey?"
Because they were poor. Even today carpenters have a hard time. In antiquity possessing one donkey was not rich. Comparing Joseph to Abraham, with his flocks, Joseph was definitely poor.
---michael_e on 10/14/13

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Elder, you accused me of misusing John 14:2 insisting "house" 'oikia' means 'the whole estate. ie: In my Father's "whole estate" are many mansions...' it now seems you would just like it to have this meaning. "Whole estate" does not appear in any reference book I have, nor those online. Please show where you found this or I will know you made it up.

This whole thing is an example of how many people, sadly, worship the KJV, despite its many errors. In reality this "mansions" furphy is just another example of the many errors in the KJV.

As regards your 65,000 words if you could point me to such list you would. I think you have made this up in your passionate reverence for the KJV.
---Warwick on 10/14/13

Warwick, I find your answer to John 14:2 correct. The word 'mansion" can also mean a resting place or room. The wording has change to make it more correct and easier to understand. Mansion sounds like a huge place oppose to a house.
---Mark_V. on 10/14/13

Now boys, why argue what type of accommodations Jesus will provide? They'll be great whatever they are! A more pointed question is why any house is needed at all IF you believe that the trip to heaven occurs at death and you go there as a disembodied spirit.

---jerry6593 on 10/14/13

Warwick, I answered your question quite plainly. You want 5+ years of study condensed into 125 words. Study yourself and see what you find.
The word "house" is used 2,030 times in the KJV, with 8 different meanings.
The word "oikia" can be used as spiritual bodies, a residence, an abode, home, household and others.
The context of John 14 demands the word means "the whole estate."
I am not looking for a little shack out back or a room in a giant hotel.
A room doesnt coincide with the power and ability of God.
On this earth I have a home with many rooms. Why should I have less when I get to heaven with gold streets, gates of pearl and jewels of all kinds?
---Elder on 10/14/13

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no cluny I can't prove that and I didn't say they were but I said they probably were. why were they riding on a donkey? cluny, you just pick and probe anything and everything and you do it to everyone.
---shira4368 on 10/14/13

\\ since they were not rich they could have probably pd for a room in the inn but no room was available. \\

And can you prove from the Bible that St. Joseph and the Theotokos were not rich?

Please give BCV, shira.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/13/13

Elder, ironic. I asked about your 65,000 words missing statistics-you have not answered. I have answered you twice but it was only posted once-below.

A little more research:

Englishman's Concordance
John 14:2 N-DFS
BIB: & #7952, & #8135, & #7984, & #8115, & #8166,
NAS: In My Father's house are many
KJV: my Father's house are many
INT: In the house of the father

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from oikos
a house, dwelling
NASB Translation
home (6), house (75), household (5), households (1), houses (7).
---Warwick on 10/14/13

Warwick, why have you evaded my question?

Why do you reject the Greek word for house in John 14:2 in the KJV? It is "oikia" and means "the whole estate."
ie: In my Father's "whole estate" are many mansions...

I answered you. Won't you answer me?
---Elder on 10/13/13

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There are three views concerning the rapture, and all three views are held by theologians of conservative views. 1. Pre-trib This is what is presented in the "Left Behind" books. (Keep in mind, these are books of fiction.) This view states Christ will be return before the tribulation. 2. Mid-trib, this view is Christ will return at the mid point of the tribulation. Reason? Satan controls the first days of the tribulation, and the Christian has always been persecuted, so why should they escape. 3. Post-trib, which means Christ will return at the end of the tribulation to rapture the Christian. Who's correct? .
---wivv on 10/13/13

Elder I have researched 'oikia' in a number of Biblical sources (Bullinger, Strongs, Greek Biblical Dictionary, ) and they all say it means 'house,home.' You say the meaning is "the whole estate." Where do you get that from?

The common meaning of 'mansion' today means a large house but when the KJV was translated it meant "an apartment in a large house." Interestingly in the "Rumpole of the Bailey" TV series Rumpole and his wife, "she who must be obeyed", lived in Froxbury Mansions. That name referring to the whole house, in which they had an unheated apartment. In my Fathers house there are many mansions i.e. 'rooms. The Rumpole writer was using the old meaning in 'mansion' as the KJV used.
---Warwick on 10/13/13

Critics can't find a single legitimate mistake in the Bible (yes, that was a challenge), yet many seem to be focused on creating them by peppering the scripture with better renderings.
It would be better if instead of spending our time confusing congregations with third grade Greek that we teach them the word of God in English!
Shouldnt we first learn why Christ was baptized twice rather than learning that the Greek word for baptism is baptizo?
Isnt it more important to know that there is more than one gospel in the scripture than to know that the Greek word for gospel sounds like evangelist?
---michael_e on 10/13/13

Shira, I am not a linguist though I have a working knowledge of quite a few language. However we all have access to experts in the field, and I have friends/acquaintances who are well trained in this field. As they say It is not what you know but who you know. I am therefore confident that what I write is true.

Thank you for your friendly reply. You are humble and that is a wonderful thing. If we are not humble I think we cannot learn, and we all need to.
---Warwick on 10/13/13

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when joseph and mary were looking for a place to birth Jesus, the inn had no room. are you suggesting the inn was a mansion? since they were not rich they could have probably pd for a room in the inn but no room was available. it suggest the inn was not for the wealthy but a simple room.
---shira4368 on 10/12/13

warwick, you have shown me some articles from someone's book. you may even be right. I do not know greek or Hebrew. are you educated in Hebrew and greek? I do believe you because Im not an authority on either. I read my bible and I see what is says. I am not being a smarty I honestly believe you.
---shira4368 on 10/12/13

God promised to preserve His words (Psa. 12:6-7, Mat. 24:35). There has to be a preserved copy of God's words somewhere. If it isn't the KJV, then what is it? Remembering that the Holy Spirit is the greatest Teacher (John 16:12-15, I John 2:27), who taught you that the KJV was not infallible, the Holy Spirit or man?
Since you do believe in the degeneration of man and in the degeneration of the world system in general, why is it that you believe education has somehow "evolved" and that men are more qualified to translate God's word today than in 1611?
---michael_e on 10/12/13

Warwick I have not "evaded" your question. If you want to know the answer to the 65,000 word question you can study the books like I did. You can also find good books on the subject that will show you.

Now tell me why you reject the Greek word for house in John 14:2 in the KJV? It is "oikia" and means "the whole estate."
ie: In my Father's "whole estate" are many mansions...

Then how about you listing some of the KJVs "archaic language" you speak of.
Being that archaic means, "an earlier or more primitive time," it would appear to me to learn todays language would be much harder.

---Elder on 10/12/13

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Shira,believe whatever you want.

However as I showed 'mansion' is not the correct translation of the underlying Greek. The Oxford Dictionary defines mansion as "A place of abode, an abiding-place, Now arch. ME...A separate dwelling-place or apartment in a large house or enclosure-1697. 3. A house, tent, etc. -1781..." Therefore, as the meaning of 'mansion' has changed over the centuries it no longer gives the correct meaning of the underlying Greek 'mone.'

As I have said the main fault of the KJV is that it's archaic words give false meanings. That you imagine a mansion (a large palatial home) awaits you in heaven leaves you in error. At best a room awaits us. But what a room in an unimaginably wonderful place.
---Warwick on 10/12/13

Rose: The Left Behind books, like the Secret Rapture Theory, are works of fiction. The only rapture mentioned in the Bible is concurrent with the second coming of Jesus. No one but the Father knows when that will occur, but it will be anything but secret. The Bible says that every eye will see it, it will be as lightning shining from east to west, it will be loud as a trumpet blast and the shout of the archangel will wake the dead. How can such events be thought "secret"?

---jerry6593 on 10/12/13

Lets get something clear, there is only one Church, the body of Christ. There is no two churches, or three. All believers make up the Church of Christ, the body of Christ. The Church will not be taken and then another church will come to be. Once the Church is taken it is all over. It will be like the days of Noah, some will be saved, and the rest lost. There is also only One Second Coming, not two and not three. Only one. There is not one silent one, and one nosey one. And, there only one way into heaven through Christ Jesus whether Jew or Gentiles, both are one in the side of God.
---Mark_V. on 10/12/13

Elder, you evaded my question "where do you get your 65,000 missing words statistics?"

I have a Australian GM product,(HSV Clubsport), and a Toyota. One is a real car, the other is a shopping trolley.

Members of my family came from Indonesia and while struggling to learn English their pastor insisted they use only the KJV. Its archaic language was impenetrable to them, a stumbling-block. They now use modern translations and are growing in faith and knowledge.

Please don't let me stop you using the KJV (as I often do) but it has its faults like all versions.

I find the KJV only band unpleasant legalists. From my long experience they are also legalistic in other areas-again a stumbling-block.
---Warwick on 10/11/13

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Bro Elder is an expert on the book of revelation. He will be glad to answer any questions you have. I don't understand parts of revelation either. I heard a preacher say the 144000 are jewish male virgins. now I don't know if that is true or not. the bible does not say who they are.
---shira4368 on 10/11/13

Shirl, I know what you believe. I was not correcting you.

The Greek word for house in John 14:2 in the KJV, is "oikia" and means "the whole estate."
ie: In my Father's "whole estate" are many mansions...
I'm not just getting a room. What would we call a "house" with that many rooms anyway?
---Elder on 10/11/13

warwick, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His Word is for all time. God put in His Word what He wanted. I think I will just stick with the ol stuff. house, room, and mansion are completely different.
---shira4368 on 10/11/13

Shira, my name is Warwick.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions..." In modern English a house is smaller than a mansion so no house can have mansions within it. A Greek Biblical dictionary will show you that house, in Greek ("mone") means "house, home," and can in context mean "family.' "Mansions" (KJV, "rooms" ESV) comes from the Greek ("oikia") meaning room, dwelling place, abode." Therefore the ESV and others are the more accurate translation. Possibly 'mansions' had a different meaning c 4 hundred years ago.

It is not that the ESV et al are incorrect but that you have been brought up with the stilted archaic English of the KJV, and prefer it.
---Warwick on 10/11/13

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elder, warrick, I was not speaking of chaotic words, I was referring how the new versions does have Christ is not deity. it reduces him to just a man. also, hell is left out, mansion has been changed to rooms. when I get to heaven, I will have a mansion. my pastor has no problem with words in the bible. he researches greek and Hebrew. I'll stick with the old stuff.
---shira4368 on 10/11/13

"Matthew 24 still sounds to me that the rapture takes place AFTER the Tribulation"
Matt 24 spoken by the Lord to the 12 representatives of ISRAEl Matt. 24 is all tribulation of Israel.
The Church, the boC doesn't have twelve tribes.
1 Thess refers to the rapture of the Church in each chapter (1:10, 2:19, 3:13, 4:15-17, 5:23)
2 Thess focuses on the second coming, with one of the Bible's most detailed descriptions of the anti-Christ in chapter 2
---michael_e on 10/11/13

"My comments were regarding your acceptance of the KJV including its incorrect/misleading words."

Those ("reference") copies take away the deity of Christ, the fact that Mary was a virgin, claim that Jesus is the only son of God (when He also "borns" us into son ship) and hosts of other major doctrine.
Many words in KJV had no translation and had to be "slurred" into the english language.
Remember my point of view is that the KJV is the best for the english speaking people.
Post some of those incorrect and/or misleading words and let's talk about those.
If you are learning from those other versions so-be-it. They are just not the best. Sorta like a Chevy Vega v/s a Toyota...
---Elder on 10/11/13

Elder where do you get your 65,000 missing words statistics?

In my parallel KJV NIV NT I see the KJV generally uses more words to say essentially the same thing. I cannot see it all adding up to thousands of words more or any significant words/meanings missing.

I do use KJV, ESV, NIV as each has its strengths, and weaknesses.

The KJV has c750 archaic words whose meaning has changed, 'replenish' being one, with serious consequences. If the KJV's archaic words replaced by correct modern equivalent then the problem disappears. However I cannot see that happening as the 'KJV only' brigade seem to worship it as is.

My comments were regarding your acceptance of the KJV including its incorrect/misleading words.
---Warwick on 10/11/13

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Also did you not read verse...We need to take all verse on a topic to truly understand it.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13

As Kathr has given to you, Rev 7:4-8 describes the sealing of the 144 thousand bond-servants from the 12 Tribes of Israel. They will be on Earth during the Tribulation but the church (BOC) will not.

In Rev 7:9-17 we see a multitude of people suddenly coming out of the Tribulation who were not there before, looking very much like the church (BOC). All nations and peoples are represented, worshipping Jesus in white robes made clean by the blood of Jesus.

By suddenly appearing and being removed from the Tribulation, the multitude misses the removal of the final seal which signals the start of God's wrath.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/10/13

Samuel, the 144,000 are those God has sealed to be the witnesses on earth at that time. They come from the 12 tribes of Israel. we know the CHURCH has no such tribes, not even symbolically.
---kathr4453 on 10/10/13

The verse mentioned the rest of men. From what group is this rest?

Also did you not read verse
Rev 9:4

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Humans with the Seal of GOD in their Forehead will be on earth during the falling of the plagues. We need to take all verse on a topic to truly understand it.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13

During the Tribulation we are going to trust GOD just as the church has done through the ages.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13

I don't see that opinion in Scripture. Actually, I see the opposite, people will not trust God during the Tribulation.

Rev 9:20 "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands..."

Rev 16:8 "Men were scorched with fierce heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/10/13

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kathr4453 You right, Enoch was translated out, taken up. SO it can be done, because it has been done. Good word.
---Bryan on 10/10/13

"You appear to be happy with the KJV giving a false meaning leading to God's word being perverted introducing a totally bogus Gap Theory." Warwick on 10/9/13

Warwick, I believe you have missed a gear. There is no way you could come up with your post from what I wrote.
Other things you need to know, there is not a "gap" between Gen 1:1 & 2.
Next, since there are 65,000 words missing in the NIV and the NIV, NASV, NKJV, TNIV, ASV and the TLB come from the same writings as the Jehovah's Witness' New World Translation, I find the KJV very reliable and much better than any of the others.
I also don't think people study to find out why it is.
---Elder on 10/10/13

Yes Karen good point. Keith Green wrote that he was going to prepare for post but pray for pre.

During the Tribulation we are going to trust GOD just as the church has done through the ages. Just like people today in many countries who are being murdered, robbed and persecuted for being Christians. It is all nice and easy here in the U.S. to say we will not face tribulation. But all over the world Christians are dying daily. Many Christian in China lost their faith because they did not escape persecution like they had been taught by followers of the Scoffield Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/10/13

Instead of arguing about when the rapture is going to occur, how about getting ready for Jesus return no matter when it occurs?
---KarenD on 10/9/13

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2 Thess 2:1,2 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
At the second Coming Christ won't be gathering people unto Himself. He's coming! But here Paul is referring to an act of Christ where He's going to gather His own unto himself, and that's the Rapture. The day of Christ is that time when Christ will call the Body of Christ unto himself.
---michael_e on 10/9/13

Sense you want to go through the tribulation have you stored up 7 years of food and supplies? It's not going to be a pleasant place to be. The bible says your heart will fail you, not that your going to have a heart attack your going to be scared to death all the time. To the point you will not be able to sleep at all.
---Bryan on 10/9/13

Elder you have totally missed the truth of what I wrote.

The Hebrew Scriptures from which the KJV OT was translated said man should be fruitful and multiply and 'fill' (Hebrew 'male') the earth. This was translated in archaic English as 'replenish' which THEN meant 'fill' but 'replenish' now means 'refill' giving a totally false meaning. You appear to be happy with the KJV giving a false meaning leading to God's word being perverted introducing a totally bogus Gap Theory.
---Warwick on 10/9/13

But the problem is Scripture clearly tells us we will meet Jesus in the clouds. So we are going UP! and will be forever with the Lord.

When Jesus comes to earth called the second coming, He is coming DOWN and all the Saints will be coming with Him. He will touch down on the mount of Olives. Zechariah 12-14.

we already see Enoch was translated out, taken up. SO it can be done, because it has been done.
---kathr4453 on 10/9/13

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Willie is correct the church can be protected during the wrath like the Children of Israel were during the plagues which is an exact parallel to the Second coming.

Do those who believe in the pre trib rapture know the 70 week prophecy of Daniel?
---Samuelbb7 on 10/9/13

Please provide one verse that says the rapture happens before the tribulation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/9/13

Yes, the Bible does say, "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9) So, anyone who is a Christian during the Great Tribulation will not be hurt by God's wrath plagues.

Because our Father is not out of control in His wrath, like how an alcoholic abuser who can hit his well-behaved kids along with the naughty ones. Our Father has exact and perfect control of how His judgments will work.

We have support for this, from how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were right in the midst of the wrath of that fiery furnace, yet not even the smell of smoke got on their clothing . . . while that same fire killed the men who threw them in there.
---willie_c: on 10/9/13

The Second coming is not secret and it is the rapture or catching away of the church.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/9/13

I agree and disagree.

The Parable of the 10 Virgins in Matt 25, immediately following the Olivet Discourse is ended by Jesus:

Matt 25:13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour"

Jesus was reiterating that we will NOT know the day or the hour of the bridegrooms return.

The Second Coming is the rapture.

Jesus states in Matt 24:29-31 that He will appear in the clouds with visible signs to the world and His Angels will gather His elect.

A parallel passage is Rev 6:12-7:17. The same events occur at the sixth seal, before God's wrath is poured out.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/9/13

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It happens before the WRATH of God, for scripture has told us WE are saved from the WRATH to come.

There is no reason for the church! His Body to go through God's WRATH upon the wicked. However if you WANT to be here at that time, ask yourselves, what are, and why are you saved.

Just as Lot was taken out before God's wrath hit, and just as Enoch was TRANSLATED out before the flood.
---kathr4453 on 10/9/13

Rapture is the Second Coming. The idea it is not was started by John Darby in the 1830's. Helped along by the Schoffield Bible and the inventions of Dispensationalism. The Secret Rapture theory is based on this as well as Futurism and the 70 weeks not being over. Dispensationalist teach that Israel and the Church are two different entities.

I have found very few who follow this to know it's basis and what scriptures they use to support it.

The Second coming is not secret and it is the rapture or catching away of the church.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/9/13

But it happens AFTER the Tribulation, shira.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/13

\\He sent plagues to Egypt, but he always told his people how to escape the plagues. Same thing about the tribulation. Rapture is to escape that time. \\

Wrong again, Bryan.

The Hebrews were NOT raptured out of Egypt before the plagues hit, but were protected DURING them.

The same way, Noah and those in the Ark were NOT raptured off the planet, but were preserved DURING the flood.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says the Rapture happens BEFORE the Tribulation.

Bryan, you come across as a baby Christian who knows only about a dozen verses and a hundred half-baked concepts you've heard from others--but have NEVER made a study of these matters for yourself to see if they be so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/8/13

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cluny get real. the bible teaches the rapture ( I know the word is not in the bible) but the catching away. when Jesus returns for His bride...which are the saved. the rapture has been in God's Word for hundreds of years and even before that.
---shira4368 on 10/8/13

There are those who think that Jesus speaking to the disciples representing the nation of Israel(Matt 24)is the same as Paul speaking to the Church the boC (1Cor 15, 1 Thess 4)are the same. Matt 24 is all Israel's tribulation.
The Bible describes a two-fold plan and purpose that God has for the universe. The difference between these dual programs inside Gods purpose resides in the information that was spoken by the mouth of the prophets since the world began and that which was kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21, Romans 16:25). Mark the difference between the two programs by calling one the subject of prophecy(Israel) while the other is the subject of the mystery(boC) revealed to Paul (Eph 3:1-5).
---michael_e on 10/8/13

When God said it would. Look at the story of Moses and the children of God. He sent plagues to Egypt, but he always told his people how to escape the plagues. Same thing about the tribulation. Rapture is to escape that time. That Is why we should always be ready. Go at the start go at the middle or go at the end. Just make sure you hear him call your name.
---Bryan on 10/8/13

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