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Order Of Salvation

Please put this in the correct order biblically and give scripture: Baptism, Belief, and New birth (regeneration). Again, what is the proper order of events?

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 ---trey on 1/19/14
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Warwick, I truly respect your faith and faithfulness. I in no way would say because I don't agree with all your views that you have damaged or destroyed the very foundations of truth. That is a very arrogant statement to make, setting yourself up as God who assumes you know everything there is to know about everything, when in fact,I see many areas you are lacking, and proved that lack by not answering anything whatsoever I posted out of THE WORD OF GOD.

I know when we see each other in heaven you will apologize.

I love that DNS proves to the world we do not come from monkeys. Of coarse WE know that, but through science the unsaved world now has that truth.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/14

Warwick, by not discussing and addressing anything I posted, that IS sound doctrine of TRUTH, has shown you don't know scripture to begin with, and you just don't want anyone to know that you don't know/ understand these things. You've shown you don't understand how scripture teaches scripture, and that truth is witnessed by other scripture truth. You presented no real discussion at all on these verses. I believe when Lucifer walked in the Eden of GOD before he fell, not the Garden of Eden we know, that WAS the heavens that were of OLD,
We have no record in Genesis satan was created in Genesis 1-2 strutting around in diamonds ruby's gold etc. and instantly fell to then tempt Eve.

These verses SCARE you resulting in insults.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/14

Ezekiel 28:13-15. We see material objects of gems and metals, fire stone. We know for a fact angels were created before the foundation of the world as witnessing God laying the very foundation of the world. Job 38. If they were created after, no such verse would exist. Everything God creates is PERFECT, not some "process" of evolution" YOU insist on from bad to better to better than that.

Without form and void with darkness to perfect is evolution Warwick. God SPOKE and it appeared PERFECT instantly, then following ruin.

Your view Warwick is EVOLUTION, destroying the very foundation of the power of God. My new birth is also INSTANT, and not a process either.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/14

"... you will end up placing dependence upon the gospel for eternal salvation."
Trey 2/23/2014

"For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

Calvin on Romans


"But of Israel, etc. A reason is sub joined why God passed over to the Gentiles, it was because he saw that his favor was become a mockery to the Jews. But that readers may more fully understand that the blindness of the people is pointed out in the second clause, Paul expressly reminds us that the elect people were charged with their own wickedness."
---Nana on 2/24/14

Kath, previously I have been impressed with your strong Biblical stance, and have written so. However you have now changed because your previously concealed compromise is exposed. Such compromise which destroys the foundation of the gospel.

Annoyed you wrote about "personal assaults" which have never occurred, and now stoop to calling me ignorant. Sadly you are now becoming evasive as others do when their pet nonBiblical belief is exposed

What you have written, your attempts to avoid the real issue (the consequences of your compromise) demonstrates how people who fall into compromise with worldly thinking reject any Scriptures which contradict their nonBiblical views e.g. Romans 5:12 , 6:23, 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.
---Warwick on 2/23/14

Trey, we know Jesus on the cross is the finished work on the cross. Christ didn't die for temporal salvation. Christ died so we could have eternal life. I don't know about you but I will be in heaven for all eternity.
---shira4368 on 2/23/14

Hi Nana, First of all, none of us should state something we do not believe to be the truth.

Concerning Romans 10:13-15. Be careful how you rightly divide the word or you will end up placing dependence upon the gospel for eternal salvation.

It is my belief that Paul is speaking of temporal salvation/deliverance while here in this life. There is a deliverance for the child of God when he/she realizes that his/her eternal salvation is not dependent upon his/her keeping the law but on the finished work of Christ upon the cross.

One more thing, the word faith has a broad meaning and there are a multitude of aspects to faith. In Romans 10:17 Paul means faith as in the truth.
---trey on 2/23/14

trey, you just showed how we obtain eternal life. I'm surprised you can't see that seeing you gave the very scripture that says we go from death to life. That IS salvation. if you don't have eternal life you better be seeking God.
---shira4368 on 2/23/14

---Warwick on 2/23/14

"Kath, this is a public forum where we can express our beliefs and we can be challenged upon these beliefs. In fact Joseph never answered my questions. "

If I may interrupt, since the World Flooded blog was closed joseph opened another blog,and answered. It is the

Finish It Here Feb 2014 blog
---chria9396 on 2/23/14

Romans 10:13_15 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

"I am simply explaining the true meaning of scripture."
trey on 2/23/14

How did you get so knowledgeable?
---Nana on 2/23/14

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God, every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth, and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

When was this time? Lucifer fell before the creation of man, yet was in the garden of Eden in all his glory before his fall.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

Elder, let us examine the verse you quoted:
John5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

The Apostle John states that he that heareth Christ and believes has eternal life.

What Christ is that the believer has an assurance of eternal salvation. He is not stating that belief is a prerequisite to obtaining eternal salvation. (Read the verse for what it says not what you want it to say.)

Call my doctrine what you want. I am simply explaining the true meaning of scripture.

Your doctrine is called Arminianism. It was constructed by Jacob Arminius (1560-1609).
---trey on 2/23/14

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth and made it, he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none else.

Warwick , this disproves your other post . Formless and vain are the same Hebrew words. Therefore it was not create originally " formless" as You say.

God is light, and in Him is NO darkness. Did the angels clap with joy IN DARKNESS when the foundations of the earth were laid. I think not.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

Jeremiah 4:22-29... Fabulous read. There are only TWO places "without form" is used in scripture. Genesis 1: 2 and Jeremiah 4:22-29. The "without form" in Jeremiah 4 is a result of rebellion and sin and judgement.

Yet we also see God said, and yet, I will not make an end to it, possibly meaning the 1000 years will follow, before all the elements are totally burned up with fire, and a NEW heaven and earth come to life in reality.

Warwick, I do not close a blind eye to ALL these verses as you have, showing yourself no different than a Calvinist who also refuses to pray upon the ENTIRE WORD OF GOD, and let God show you the height, depth, length and width of all His marvelous truths.

God bless. Bye now.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

Micha . The beasts of the files were created before man. Satan was present when God told Adam not to eat of the tree. Unless you can prove Adam had a discussion personally with the serpent before Genesis 3. Genesis 2 is a summarization of Genesis 1 Micha unless you are with those who believe Genesis 2 is yet another creation.

Warwick again you accuse me of something I never said. Why, because YOU believe only one version of a gap Theory through brainwashing, and have FAILED to read there are many, who DO NOT believe in any life before Adam/ Eve.

Genesis 3:15 is what you overlook Warwick, and what the FINALLY of that moment is about.

You argue against your own ignorance.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

Kath, this is a public forum where we can express our beliefs and we can be challenged upon these beliefs.
---Warwick on 2/23/14

Really Warwick? I never accused you in this discussion, but YOU pulled a Markv temper tantrum in the middle, you call EXPRESSING? Micha's ignorance continually shows his own ineptness of truth he should know. Neither of you want to DISCUSS. I also have challenged you without the cursing. Challenging is one thing, pulling a Markv is quite another.

Your young earth creationists are who have brainwashed you against the gap principle! making all sorts of FALSE accusations they have no premise for. GT do not believe in evolution, and came long before Darwin or Darwinism.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

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Warwick, without knowing what you believe at the end of the age, the great tribulation, the 1000 years while satan is bound, and then let loose again, that Great War in heaven as well as on earth, the beast, etc, and it may be you simply do not believe that at all would IN FACT alter your understanding of Satan, WHEN he fell, and why their interference with man right from the beginning, would in fact be the GAP of truth you don't possess to understand the Gap principle at all.

I was rather SHOCKED at your comment it has NOTHING to do with Satan.

That comment explains a lot. And for that GAP in your understanding, I forgive your ignorance on this subject.

You simply don't understand the DEPTH OF GENESIS 3:15.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/14

Kath, this is a public forum where we can express our beliefs and we can be challenged upon these beliefs. In fact Joseph never answered my questions.

No matter what you say the Gap Theory or the so called Soft Gap Theory place death (both of animal and human) before sin whereas Scripture says death came into the world because of, and obviously after Adam's sin. The various Gap Theories are not from Scripture and undermine the gospel. I have tried to get you to address this reality but you will not.
---Warwick on 2/23/14

Kath I take Genesis ch.1 as written-God created the heavens, and the earth (a Hebrew mereism for 'the all' Hebrew does not contain 'universe.'

There was no light upon the earth-God had yet to say-"let there be light."

The earth was created formless, covered in water, its shape revealed later.

The earth was created empty, because no plant or creature yet made.

This is the traditional conservative view held for millennia. The Gap Theory was invented in answer to the growing idea in geology that the earth was billions of years old. This belief replaced Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) with Scriptura sub scientia (Scripture subservient to science).

"Personal assaults" where?
---Warwick on 2/23/14

The serpent, the devil was in the garden before Adam and Eve were created.-kathr4453 on 2/22/14
Genesis 2:7-8 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
-The Bible says man was created before the garden was.
More inconsistencies from kathr. May you choose not to believe her lies.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
---micha9344 on 2/22/14

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The reason Jesus died and rose again includes the final overthrow of satan as well.

The serpent, the devil was in the garden before Adam and Eve were created.

He must reign until ALL enemies...that includes satan as well.

Created and MADE are both uses in Genesis. Jesus was MADE flesh, not created flesh. He was made flesh from that which already existed, taking on the seed of Abraham.

When I Make a cake, I use ingredients already in existence.

EVERYTHING is dealt with at the end of the age, including satan......not JUST man's sin.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/14

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Fact, at the time of Noah's flood only the earth was destroyed and made new......nothing about the heavens also. There is no scripture backing the heavens were also destroyed and made new at the time of the flood.

So how old is old?
---kathr4453 on 2/22/14

Warwick, I have shown you the Gap Principle does not undermine "the gospel". We simply have a different understanding.

You believe Genesis 1:1-2 actually should read: " On the first day God created the earth without form and void with darkness upon it." I however do not read it that way at all.

Let me reiterate: creation took place before the 6 days. Angels, created beings, were in fact created before the world, before the foundation of the world took place. Angels are spirit beings who cannot die. Only 1/3 of the angels fell, each created individually, using free will, rebelled against God. The falling of the angels did not bring DEATH anywhere, but chaos they did.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/14

Warwick I will not be chased down from blog to blog either. Josef refused to continue answering you, and now I see why.

Many scientists, archeologists, geologists have proved scriptures over and over through carbon dating.

And I also believe those who believe in the Big Bang theory are actually seeing that time of chaos! not a big band. They see something, and we do them all a disservice by calling what they see a lie, rather than explain the gap principle.

Don't chase me down anymore Warwick. Conversation over. I had answered you kindly, but we see through you and Micha, that when anyone challenges closed minds, personal assaults take place.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/14

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Kath I will not be deflected by your shotgun blast of speculations. What the angels did or did not do is not relevant to the issue.

I have shown you, from Scripture,that the Gap Theory undermines the gospel. As Scripture proclaims death is an intruder into God's perfect creation, the consequence of Adam's sin. The reason Jesus came to die and rise again was to overthrow the universal effects of Adam's sin. Your view places death before Adam's sin therefore, judged by the Scriptures I have given and many others, you stand contradicted. It is a serious sin to contradict God's word, especially to stand against the gospel.

You know what Scripture says but reject it, preferring the nonBiblical speculations of sinful man.
---Warwick on 2/21/14

Trey, what you are pushing is limigted attonement. That is to say that the blood and sacrifice of Christ can only save a few. Sad your god is so limited and my Jesus is God Almighty. That is with all power.

Jesus offers salvation in John 5:24. How could you miss that unless you wanted to,

Then Jesus speaks of the dead hearing His voice. He even lets us know they are in the grave v-28.

The only way you miss these things is Calvinism has blinded you.

By now you should also know about Elder.
---Elder on 2/21/14

Elder, what you are proclaiming in Universal Atonement. That Christ paid for everyone and that salvation is offered up to the sinner. That it is the sinner's obligation to save himself.

Since you are an elder this should be easy for you: Please show me chapter and verse where Christ offers salvation.

While you're looking, here is a verse for you:
Joh5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
This verse is not speaking of the resurrection.

It is speaking of the effectual call of God. Note: "is coming and now is" It is not an offer. It is sovereign.
---trey on 2/21/14

Micha, The new heaven and earth where old thing have passed away including and up to and through the end of all the ages, that have preceded. Christ is the head of the new creation. Never again will there be rebellion, sin or death. No sun or moon will be necessary. Beyond our comprehension.
Sons of God, children I believe He always wanted even before angels were created. Joint heirs with Christ! never offer to Adam and Eve or angels. The NEW CREATURE, " in Christ" would never be possible apart from sin and death, or God being made flesh, to bring earthly man to an even higher place than they originally had was no after thought.....and when CHRIST who IS OUR LIFE shall appear, we shall appear with Him "IN GLORY".
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

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Kathr, I will leave your posts to stand on their own merit.
Anyone can look back and see the inconsistencies in your posts.
Standing for what you believe in is admiral, but being tossed to and fro by every whim of doctrine and denying what is obviously posted is not.
I have done no different than you have done to others. If you were wrong in doing so, than I must be as well.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
---micha9344 on 2/21/14

Micha, again you are being contentious stating I said something I did not. Only 1/3 of the angels fell. Therefore Satan's rebellion DID NOT bring all angels into condemnation.

The FACT that man will have a place ABOVE all angels as the very children of God, in no way was stating that that plan was because of Satan's rebellion. It may very well be because of that fact satan hates man. Christ was foreordained BEFORE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO BRING SONS INTO GLORY.

Micha, I see your quest here is to attack me and be obnoxious in every way towards everything I say, going back years now, also showing your own ignorance of truth along the way. You have no understanding of the MYSTERY of Christ in the first place.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

Hebrews 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Adam and Eve were earthly, and would always remain earthly even if they never sinned. Christ was never IN Adam and Eve in the beginning. Angels are not , were ever , nor will ever be begotten sons through Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

"One angels sin did not bring ALL angels into condemnation."-kathr4453 on 2/21/14
-That is not what you posted on another blog.
"This doctrine is of the belief that this verse points to a time when satan rebelled...and WHY in the end the church will one day have a place in heaven ABOVE the angels."-kathr4453 on 2/18/14
"Yes even the unfallen ones."-kathr4453 on 2/19/14
Jam 1:8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.
---micha9344 on 2/21/14

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Trey no one has said that God doesn't call people to salvation. The salvation of God has appeared to all men.

What I have said, and the Bible teaches, is that God doesn't pick some to be saved and other to perish.

Salvation is available to all but not all will accept.
You need to realize that people are not God's people until they are Born Again/Saved.

Salvation is available to all the exact same way. It is not that some are condemned and others are specially chosen.
---Elder on 2/21/14

Genesis 2: 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,.

Warwick, you have not addressed my very first comment, as well,as others I have made.

Days are NOT generations.
Angels don't die, decay or get disease.

That verse in Romans is stating in Adam all die. His sin was passed down to all man.
Yet, not so with angels. One angels sin did not bring ALL angels into condemnation.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

Warwick, I do not believe in a preadamic existence prior to Adam and Eve. I also know "in the beginning" was not just 6000 years ago. Scripture states "in the beginning" many times and not all verses using "in the beginning " mean 6000 years ago. If that were so, God and The Word and the Holy Spirit are only 6000 years old.

Angels we see clearly in Job 38 were created before the earth, and witnessed the very foundations of the earth being laid. Hell was NOT made for man, so it was not made during or after the 6 days, but before...for angels who rebelled BEFORE man. Yet we see man will one day share in that hell.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

Warwick, why would the angels clap for joy when God laid the very foundations of the earth? It's possible earth was at one time their own play ground having dominion over it . Satan said, I will set my throne ABOVE the clouds and the stars. So it appears his throne may have been here below the clouds at one time, below meaning earth. Rebellion took place, the universe in chaos. Many angles bound in chains, yet not all.

The next generation of the earth God gave Man dominion over, leading to total jealousy over man to destroy man right from the beginning to this very day. MOTIVE.

God never breathed LIFE into animals nostrils becoming living souls. Nor are plants and animals going to be resurrected. Romans 5 deals with man.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/14

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"This is also called the effectual call of God. It is effective. It gets the job done."
trey on 2/20/14

Does God also have an ineffectual call too? I ask because Jesus said, "Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Those not chosen, did they receive an ineffectual call from God?
Were the prophets and men God send to Jerusalem which were killed and stoned ineffectual messengers sent by God for that very purpose, to be killed? (Matthew 23:37).
Did God ineffectually teach His children which thereafter rebelled against him? (Isaiah 1:2)
---Nana on 2/20/14

Kathr and Elder
The Lord draws His people to Him. This is also called the effectual call of God. It is effective. It gets the job done. Note the words of Christ:
John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

In other words, the Father has a people that he gave to the Son. All that are given to the Son will come to Him. They may not hear the voice of a preacher, but they will hear the voice of the Son of God.

Another example of God's call:
John10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Christ clearly states that His sheep hear his voice and follow.

Call it what you want. I call that biblical doctrine.
---trey on 2/20/14

Kath, what you will not address is that the Gap Theory places death disease and suffering before Adams sin while Scripture says it is a consequence of his sin- e.g. For example Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin." The Good News (Gospel) is that Jesus came to die (and rise again) that we may have eternal life Romans 6:23. Scripture calls death the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26) But how can death be an enemy if, as you believe it was there for eons? See also Revelation 21:4.

Any belief which destroys the Gospel is to be rejected.
---Warwick on 2/20/14

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Those whom the Father drew to Jesus before going to the Cross were already God's Elect from His Elect Israel...JEWS. We se no Gentile was Drawn to Jesus to become one of the Apostles.

When we see in John 12:32 Jesus saying, when I be "lifted up", this is referring to AFTER His death and resurrection, and ALL MEN mean both Jew and Gentile.

Therefore ALL MEN ARE DRAWN, yet even with that drawing that happens when the CROSS is preached still does not guarantee ALL MEN will be saved. So we see drawing in no way guarantees salvation.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/14

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Furthermore, AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it is the Holy Spirit that does the DRAWING, not the FATHER. NO ONE can even come to the Father except through His Son, therefore The FATHER does not come to unregenerate sinners first. The Holy Spirit draws you to Jesus of which scripture tells us the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ, who then after coming to Christ, it is Christ who brings you to the Father...into the HOLY OF HOLIES. You must be totally washed of your sin before even coming into the presence of the Father.

THIS pattern of truth is clearly set out in Leviticus and Hebrews.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/14

all that the Father draws comes to Christ and those that come to Christ are saved.

No, that is not so. All that got saved were drawn by the Father/Holy Spirit, but not all that are drawn get saved.
Agrippa is such a case.

To say that all who are drawn by God gets saved is to indicate that He doesn't draw all mankind.

That is contrary to Scripture and sounds Calvinistic. Is it? Is this what you are saying?
Do you think that God only draws those who get Saved or does He draw all men?
---Elder on 2/20/14

Warwick I said sin entered the universe through Satan's fall. Angels don't die Warwick. So no death was mentioned. The serpent who tempted Eve already had rebellion it it's heart against God. No such thing will EVER be allowed in the New heaven and earth.

Warwick, let me ask you, why was Adam and Eve confined to the Garden of Eden with it's boundaries clearly defined in Genesis as a very small piece of real estate compared to the whole earth until sin entered and came to fruition resulting in it's being sealed off? Wasn't God concerned that the tree of life if eaten would have given them eternal life in a sinful body FOREVER. So now define "death" if that had happened.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/14

I think Kathy was referring to satan who was already in the world when Adam was created. We can see how satan was ready to attack the moment Adam and Eve were created. he still hasn't stopped but we know what the end God has planned for him and his minions.
---shira4368 on 2/20/14

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Kath, by saying sin was in the world before Adam you contradict the NT e.g. Romans 5:12 "therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin..." So how can you say sin and death existed before Adam? Your view destroys the gospel.

The Gap Theory was invented when the idea that the fossil record (a record of death, disease and suffering of man and animals) was a record of billions of years became popular. To accept this view places such death disease and suffering long before Adam and has God (at the completion of creation) saying this "was very good." What sort of a monster would say this misery was "very good."

That the creation is relatively young is as old as the Bible.
---Warwick on 2/19/14

Nana and Kathr, what you fail to realize is that except our Heavenly Father draws us unto him none of us would repent, none of us would seek his face, and none of us would love him. What you fail to realize is that man is totally depraved. If it were not for the grace of God we would all burn in hell.

Let me also add that all that the Father draws comes to Christ and those that come to Christ are saved.

If you would like me to provide scripture I will.
---trey on 2/19/14

With kathr4453 on 2/19/14 I totally agree.

God made man with the capacity to learn and the ability to change. That capacity I see clearly in Isaiah 1 when God's wayward children were addressed He said, "Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes, cease to do evil, Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."

Their answer to that is to create straw men. One kind God made able to learn and to change and the other He made as wood for the furnance from birth!
I personally see their views as sick and untrue.
---Nana on 2/19/14

With regard to resisting God, we read, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you" (cts 7:51.

This language is abrasive to Calvinists, it runs against the grain of their theology, because they have historically labeled a major plank of their position, "irresistible grace." This is/was a big mistake because it fossilized in Calvinist vocabulary a rejection of the most simple way to express an important Biblical theme, the fact that we must not resist the motions of the Holy Spirit, as the Jews addressed in Acts 7 did.

So, is the will of God stronger than God Himself? Is the Holy Spirit not God?
---kathr4453 on 2/19/14

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Cowboy, you speak of our free will, what about God's will:

Rom9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
---trey on 2/18/14

It's not God's will that any should perish, but He gave us free will. If we perish it is by our own will, not His. We have to believe and accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour AND we have to repent (turn away from) our sin. If we're not willing to this simple thing then God is under no obligation to save our eternal souls. God is not only merciful in that He made salvation easy for us, He is just in that He made it clear about what we have to do to gain our salvation.
---Cowboy_Preacher on 2/18/14

Peace and grace to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Bible uses the term salvation not only in many senses, but in many tenses. The Bible makes clear in each text in what tense the word save is used. There is a sense in which we were saved from the foundation of the world: we were being saved by the work of God in history: we are being saved by being in a justified state: we are being saved by being sanctified or being made holy: and we will be saved by experiencing the consummation of our redemption in heaven. Salvation is a Divine work, it is accomplished and applied by God. It is of the Lord, it is the Lord who saves us from the wrath of the Lord on the Day of the Lord.
---Bob_M on 2/18/14

Steven G, Christ said:
John6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Also: (Read this verse for what it truly says)
2Peter3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The ALL there are the ones spoken of by Christ:
John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

God is not weak and he is not a man like you and me. All his elect are kept unto salvation!
---trey on 2/17/14

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If God wants everybody to be saved but is unable to do that, then he is not much of a God, and I suppose he will be unhappy through all eternity because of his inability.
---Love.wins on 2/17/14

Salvation is a done deal for the whole human race. Some people will believe sooner, and some people later. But in the end, everyone will.
Rom.5:18, 1.Tim.4:10
---Love.wins on 2/17/14

"We do not believe in order to be saved."-Bob_M on 2/17/14
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
---micha9344 on 2/17/14

"We believe because we are saved. We do not believe in order to be saved."

That's not the order the Bible gives.

Faith comes by hearing the Word. Then because of having faith we call on Jesus to save us. Thats the concept of Rom 10, John 3 John 4 amd other passages.

We do not get saved then call. What would be the purpose?

Your concept sounds just like the Calvinist doctrine of confusion. Is that what you intend?

Folks beware of a relisted MarkV using another name and thinking no one knows.
---Elder on 2/17/14

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1. New Spiritual birth
2. belief through faith
3. water baptism is commanded to all those who believe after receiving faith.
We believe because we are saved. We do not believe in order to be saved. The unregenerate do not have faith.
We are saved by Grace first, through faith.
---Bob_M on 2/17/14

God does not get anything he wants. He does not want anyone to persish, he wants love from those who volunteer their love. Sure, God can force man to love him, but is that true love? God does not force love to make man love him. Man must love God on his own.
---Steveng on 2/16/14

God does not want anyone to perish, but he wants man to come to him first.
---Steveng on 2/15/14

If God doesn't want anyone to perish, no one will perish, because God always gets what he wants.
---Love.wins on 2/15/14

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God does not want anyone to perish so he sent his son to earth to choose 12 descilples to train them to go out into the world to preach the gospel - the kingdom of God - and how to get there.

After a person hears the gospel, he then believes, repents of his sins, gets baptized by water (which is symbolic of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrestion), the laying of the hands to receive the Holy Spirit, then goes out into the world to perform miracles greater than Jesus.

Most christians, unfortunately, stop at water baptism.
---Steveng on 2/15/14

"a brotha from anotha motha!" Aka joseph, fo sho brotha:o), seeing we have the same Father.
---Josef on 1/26/14

Amen Aka. That is definitely the order.---Josef on 1/20/14

a brotha from anotha motha!

aka joseph
---aka on 1/24/14

Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Turn, lost and reconcile, these point to a broken relationship and state of being in need of mend, a going back- not a new thing.
---Nana on 1/22/14

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I would like to comment on the word regeneration.

In the Biblical sense, regeneration is defined as born again, again genesis, or origin again. We understand this in many Scriptures including Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3.

However, the current definition of regeneration is a process of regeneration, a state of being regenerated, spiritual revival, or regrowth of lost limbs.

The new definition hints at the idea that whatever was old can be reformed or regrown into something new.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Christians are new creatures, newly born and not remade old souls.

We should avoid using the word regeneration.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/22/14

Though you had to hear the word first. The word that Jesus died on the cross for you. John 3:16
---BRYAN on 1/21/14

New birth and regeneration are not the same according to the Bible.
New birth (being born again) comes from the Word of God, just as faith (belief).
Regeneration is more in tune with baptism.
Since there are really only 2, belief(new birth) is first, then baptism (regeneration) of the Holy Ghost.
1Pe 1:23 Being born the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Titus 3:5 ...he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13 ...after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
---micha9344 on 1/21/14

{1] New birth [regeneration] [2] belief [3] Baptism.
---catherine on 1/21/14

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Other faith scriptures along with Rom.10 v 9, Mark 16 v 16, Mat. 28 v 19 points to --> Acts 2 v 38. Acts 2 v 38 Fulfills Mat. 28 v 19.
---Lawrence on 1/20/14

"1. Belief-Zygote (gr. to yoke or join)
2. Baptism - Birthing process (approx. 9 mo.) formation...There are three embryonic washings in that time. Baptism is not a one time event.
3. Birth (corporal) - new birth (spiritual)

Parallel - you must be born again says the lord. Who do you think delivers? Many still-borns...a few alive in christ.
---aka on 1/19/14"
DEEP!:o) Amen Aka. That is definitely the order.
---Josef on 1/20/14

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29,30

1. God must first love you
2. He then predestines you to be conform to the image of His Son
3. He brings you into this world dead in sin and trespass
4. In His predestined time He will call you (to be ben of the Spirit)
5. He justifies you by the faith He gives you through repentance
6. He will sanctify you
7. He will glorify you

ALL 100% the work of God, aka the definition of His grace!
---christan on 1/19/14

Hebrews 1:3 in the RSV says "When he had made purification for sins,..." and Hebrews 9:13 repeats that He made "PURIFICATION FOR SINS".....verse 14 says that the eternal [Holy} Spirit purifies THE CONSCIENCE (this is the age of eternity)....neither "age of eternity" or 2 part salvation has ever been taught (even though Hebrews 7:25 says that "He is able to save COMPLETELY), so it is up to you to always be aware of this because complete salvation is not automatic, you must LIVE THE DIVINE SPIRIT in your life.
---faithforfaith on 1/19/14

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1. Belief-Zygote (gr. to yoke or join)
2. Baptism - Birthing process (approx. 9 mo.) formation...There are three embryonic washings in that time. Baptism is not a one time event.
3. Birth (corporal) - new birth (spiritual)

Parallel - you must be born again says the lord. Who do you think delivers? Many still-borns...a few alive in christ.
---aka on 1/19/14

YOu don't think that God is this big of a legalist, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/19/14

First hearing the word. Then you have the opportunity (a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something) of salvation, next is you do things as a follower of Jesus, Water baptism, Spiritual baptism, Getting to know his will, then doing it. That has away of turning you into a mother or sister or even a brother of Jesus. Matthew 12:50
---BRYAN on 1/19/14

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