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Origin Of Cross Symbol

What is the origin of the "cross" symbol used in some denominations? The Greek word Stavros, translated "cross" does not mean cross!

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 ---1st_cliff on 2/15/14
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You feel you haven't left Jehovah, but is it possible Jehovah has left you?

How can you claim to worship Jehovah when you apparently agree to 'Military service' and 'saluting the flag'? In USA they used the Bellamy salute up until Hitler started using it in his Nazi party during the 1930/40's. Do you continue with the Bellamy/Nazi salute when 'saluting' your flag? How is this NOT idolatry?

Jehovah has always organised his people. Why should it be any different today during the last days? Park the WTBTS for a moment, if Jehoavh is using a group of people today to carry out Jesus' commission (Mt.24:14), wouldn't God be using the same 1st century pattern? Which worldwide group of people fit the bill? Js.1:17.
---David8318 on 2/21/14

'Your own faith shows how confused you are'- Elder.

The confusion is all yours. We're still waiting for you to show us where "Bible" originates from pagan orgins... come on, show us. Were waiting. I never said the word "Bible" is a Bible word.

What makes you think you and shira are saved? I had to laugh at that one. You think the false pagan trinity is going to save you!? The 144,000 are not trinitarians. No where in Rev.14 does it say they believe 'God is three persons'. In fact it doesn't say that anywhere in scripture- not even in your trinitarian Bible. Only in the unscriptural writings of the Catholic catechism.

I'd rather be a janitor on earth than a dead pagan trinitarian for all eternity.
---David8318 on 2/21/14

David, FYI I served for 22 years in every position in the congregation.Gave many hour lectures,been shot at, bitten by dogs,fired from my employment,there were none more "dedicated" than I.
I was disfellowshipped for resigning, The only scripture they could cite was "They were not of our sort"! (WBTS sort)
I did not leave Jehovah, just the "Organization"
None of the questions I posed are against bible "principles"
Just WBTS rules!
---1st_cliff on 2/21/14

'M has always been the symbol of a thousand! Hello !'

Who's being bombastic now?

If you meant "M", then why didn't you use "M" and not "m"! You say you went back into the world, didn't realise you went back to using roman numerals aswell. You really have gone backwards!! In my area, K is the abbreviation for 1000. I thought you meant 7m, as in 7million, not 70m. And your posts are so short it wouldn't have been much for you to have said 70,000. See, I can do it properly. Notice you haven't named this "town of 70m".

Anyway, JW's are not out to convert the world. Jesus said that his disciples would 'preach the Good news of the Kingdom' (Mt.24:14), not 'convert'.
---David8318 on 2/21/14

Shira...Two jws knocked on my door...they are always in two. My ground rule was that I only discussed with one person at a time. It was their choice. Of course they chose the tall charismatic man and not the Ross perot looking side kick.

Several weeks went by and every time the little one spoke, I would tell them to come back next week. After several attempts, they got it right.

A few more weeks passed as I discussed things with the tall one. Mean while...I was watching the little guy brewing. I knew he would eventually blow and he did.

The jws quit coming. They take records of where to go and not to go.
---aka on 2/21/14

David you need a good laugh. Jw knock on my door and when I opened the door, the woman. Had a tray of donuts uncovered. She said "I brought you a donut" what she brought was a cult and when she ask a question, I turned the table and ask her" do you believe Jesus died on the cross for you?" I ask her more questions until she turned and walked away. People from the jw cult walk the neighborhoods spreading their lies. some people even let them in the door. Nuff said.
---shira4368 on 2/21/14

Since when was it un-Christian to be bombastic? David8318

Definition: Bombastic(of a person, their language or writing) showy in speech and given to using flowery or elaborate terms, grandiloquent, pompous
High-sounding but with little meaning.

It has always been unchristian to be Bombastic. You did not answer my questions or Points David.

So you add to the Bible. The Bible does not say either way on many activities. Like driving a car. So the Chosen who run the Watchtower decide for you. What are you going to do when they are all dead and there are no more Born again people to lead?
---Samuelbb7 on 2/21/14

David again I just went by what you said.

Your smoke and mirrors isnt working.

How come Shira uses a word not in the Bible and you say she is a pagan. You do the same thing and you think you are no pagan.

Your own faith shows how confused you are.

Of course your NWT doesn't teach anything about the Trinity. It doesn't teach you how to get to heaven/get saved either.

Since Shira and myself are Saved that only leaves 143, 998 according to you so what ever you do you had better hurry unless you want to be a janitor in eternity....
---Elder on 2/20/14

Expressly forbidden by Jehovah!'

Where does scripture say we can do those things? Same answer to your question- No where!

JW's allow Bible principles to guide their decision making when the Bible is silent on any issue. Satanic religious wars are the exception, the Bible is specific regarding warfare eg. Is.2:2-4, 2 Tim.2:24.

The priniple: 'Flee from idolatry' (1 Cor.10:14) covers at least 5 in your list- can you spot them?

The principle: 'not to take them out of the world (but)... they are no part of the world' (Jo.17:15,16) covers about 10 on your list- spot them?

Its typical of an individual as yourself who always wants to go by a stated law rather than being guided by principle. I doubt you were ever a JW!
---David8318 on 2/21/14

David, "bible" is not the issue but you question the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost is the trinity and yes it is biblical or at least it's in my bible... Well not the actual word but biblical just the same. Bro elder and sis Jareldeen and I are in one accord. If you listen to him you will learn the truth. It matters not what the word cross means, Jesus did die on the cross and that is what salvation is all about. Oh what kind of bible do you have?
---shira4368 on 2/20/14

is happy being a polytheistic

Dav...well any jw

You believe in one main god and many little gods.
---aka on 2/20/14


Candles were/are also used in pagan religions, but that ifself doesn't make them wrong, especially since they are used in scripture.

"Somebody bad does X. Therefore X is bad" is a fallacious argument.

Barak Obama is also three persons - he's a husband/father, he's President of the United States, and he's the Commander in Chief of the United States military. Each of these has different powers and responsibilities, and are not interchangeable - yet it's quite possible, and even quite common.

But why is this Cross blog being hijacked into arguments about trinitarianism?
---StrongAxe on 2/20/14

Hello, brothers & sisters, all respect to each one.May I ask a question to Bro.David..

I use to work in an office with JW and we got along pleasant my only real question - How come every other persons ( formaly must go if draft selection time) my family members fought for this country! And some died.

Why is it your religion is EXCEMPT from all military draft ot selective service? They may not have the selective service or official draft anymore..has your policy changed in recent years?

Love of Jesus! Lidia4796
---Lidia4796 on 2/20/14

Elder- who is Shirl?

You ask, 'how can you say what she believes'? (assuming its shira you're referring to) Simple answer because thats what shira said on 2/19/14- "God is three persons". How do you know what she believes? Its possible shira is happy being a polytheist, she certainly says she believes "God is three persons".

I've never said the word "Bible" was in the Bible. It's a generally accepted word used to described... the Bible. I'm asking you to tell us where is the evidence the word "Bible" comes from pagan religions. We're waiting!

I can't in this post, but I'm happy to show where "hell" and "God is three persons" were/are used in pagan religions.
---David8318 on 2/20/14

David, You're playing games.
"M" has always been the symbol of a thousand! Hello !
The fruits of the spirit are love,joy,peace,long suffering kindness, goodness, self control,faith....does any of this sound "bombastic"??
You are an angry fellow and it's not "righteous indignation".
What does it mean to "heap coals of fire on their heads"?
---1st_cliff on 2/20/14

David's JW heresy unwinds from the darkness to dull our understanding, once again.

David, as we all know, JWs believe their works will POSSIBLY, MAYBE, NOT QUITE SURE, bring eternal life. That's why they MUST knock on doors, MUST not have blood transfusions, MUST not celebrate birthdays, MUST believe only the Watchtower is God's only true mouthpiece on Earth, etc etc. It's to prove THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS, presented as THEIR WORKS, before God. Romans 4:5 says the opposite: "But to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness".
---Marc on 2/20/14

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David I just went by what you said.

You said it was pagan because Shirl used a word not in the Bible.

You did the exact same thing.
So if Shirl's is pagan why is yours not?

So in your vast intelligence, which none of us seem to have, how come your statement is not pagan also?

Com'on now tell us. We're just sitting here looking out the window waiting on your super knowledge to butcher this.

Can you prove the word Shirl used is pagan? No you can't.

It appears that you think you can say what you want and you allow no one else to do the same.
---Elder on 2/20/14

"The trinitarian Shira is a polytheist because she believes "God is three person"."

You don't even know Shira so how can you say what she believes? Trinity is not more than one God. It is one God in three persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Of course you can't see that in the perverted New World Translation.

Neither will Russell's miracle wheat grow more than any other.

So if you want to look for falsehoods look into your own beliefs. Correct them first.
---Elder on 2/20/14

\\'I moved to this town pop70m'

Really? A town with a population of 70m (million)?\\

While K is more usually used now as an abbreviation for thousand, I remember when M (from the Latin mille) was used.

So it could mean 70,000 as well.

Lighten up, David.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/14

'I moved to this town pop70m'

Really? A town with a population of 70m (million)? I have to call your bluff and say you're talking rubbish unless you can name this "town" or city 'pop 70m'.

2010 census has New York with a population of 19m, Wash.DC 5.7m, London UK 8m.

Each of those cities have over 500 congregations in 300 languages in their Metropolitan areas alone, and growing.

Which out-in-the-bush "town" of "70m" do you live in with only 1 kingdom hall!? You must be living in Tehran, Iran! I dare you to name this "town pop 70m".

Since when was it un-Christian to be bombastic!? You need to man up!
---David8318 on 2/20/14

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David,Can you point out to me where any of the following is forbidden in scripture?
New Years Day
Mothers day
Fathers day
Labor day
Flag salute
Aiding in a national disaster (not just those of your religion)
4th of July (or any National day observance)
Voting in municipal elections
Military service
Competitive sports
Boy/Girl Scouts
Expressly named and forbidden by Jehovah!
---1st_cliff on 2/20/14

David you do not teach the lake of fire. You do teach that the world will be covered with the dead and you have to go aroung and bury them. I was not exact and for that I apoligize.

Yes a lot of Revelation is Symbolic. How symbolic is the fire being an actually lake. Not sure. For Revelation also refers to it as raining down on the wicked. Rev 20:9 We get the hell part from Matthew 10:28 But in general Seventh day Adventist and JW hold a similar view on the dead. JW switched a part some time ago. You teach the 144,000 who are dying off go to heaven at death. In spite of the fact that is not the regular truth you used to teach. That all the dead are asleep.

What will happen to the JW's when all the 144,000 are dead?
---Samuelbb7 on 2/20/14

David, I have challenged you to name ONE distinctly Roman Catholic doctrine I hold.

You have not given one. All you have given are those held by Pre-Reformation Churches, which is not the same thing.

Original Sin is a distinctly RC doctrine.

So is Papal Infallibility.

So is Immaculate Conception.

There are other distinctly RC doctrines--and you obviously do not know what they are.

None of them I hold.

Obviously, you do not know what you're talking about, but that's not news.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/14

'How can you be so pagan'- Elder.

Arguing "Bible" is not a Bible word is fallicious equivalence. If Elder can provide evidence the word "Bible" originates from pagan religions then lets hear it.

The trinitarian Shira is a polytheist because she believes "God is three person". I simply point out that this is not a Bible teaching because the Bible teaches mono-theism, and has done since the year dot.

Trinitarian polytheism is taught in pagan, anti-christ religions that can historically be traced back to Ancient pagan Egypt. Shira has been told by someone that the Bible teaches 'God is three persons'. She hasn't found that for herself.
---David8318 on 2/20/14

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'the saved will spend a century or two cleaning up the mess on earth left behind by Hell burning itself out'.

Samuelbb7- this is not a JW teaching. JW's do not believe the false pagan/Islamic teaching of hellfire. You're obviously a confused individual, unless you can provide any reference where JW's have taught this riduculous notion.

What is bizarre is you and others believe the 'Lake of Fire' is literal. You must also therefore believe the '10 horned 7 headed wild beast' is also literal! Have you seen it in a zoo somewhere!? (Rev.19:20, 20:10)

The Lake of Fire is simply symbolic of the fact that the 'wild beast', 'the false prophet' and 'hades' (symbols themselves) will be completely destroyed forever.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

There is a big difference between "organized" and an "organization."
As to the blog:
The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.-Irenaeus [a.d. 120-202]
Our Lord Jesus Christ was nailed to a cross, crucified, on a form that pre-dates Constantine and the Royal Catholic Church.
This is why it's form is prevalent even in the oldest of churches throughout the Old World.
Coptic, Syriac, Etc. Cluny could give further details.
JW's get their fantasies from the 19th century and then try to find unrelated facts to support them from history.
---micha9344 on 2/19/14

'you cannot give a single distinctly Roman Catholic doctrine I hold'

Another oportunity to tell Cluny he is a Catholic without a pope. As I quoted from "Orthodox" sources how he uses Catholic beliefs, I'm happy to continue to do so and rub it in Cluny's nose.

Same beliefs include, "the sacraments, Mary as Ever Virgin and Theotokos, Jesus is God, immortal soul..." (orthodox resource com) Both also use the cross.

Cluny's un-Orthodox sect was in fact part of the RCC up until 1054AD when Cluny's crowd split from the RCC.They are a sect of the RCC carrying the same teachings.

Satan rules the corrupt RCC/Eastern un-Orthodox partnership through division.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

Samuel because someone says the earth is billions of years old is but a statement, not even evidence, let alone proof. Do you notice that those here who believe in the billions of years cannot provide proof? It is therefore a view held by faith therefore we Christians do not need to believe it. Should we not trust our Perfect God who was there rather than the changing opinions of fallible sinful men who were not there? If there was proof (one way or the other) available the argument would be over. Is there an argument over gravity or the boiling point of water?

Who is your ultimate authority Samuel: God or man?
---Warwick on 2/19/14

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David, Your bombastic attitude is unbecoming a Christian!
Perhaps you remember the "Photo drama" Shown in the '50s and a picture of a church with a for sale sign. Saying people are leaving the churches and flocking to the Kingdom.
I moved to this town pop70m attending a Kingdom Hall. There's still only one,while 3 Pentecostal,2 Bretheren,2 United,1 Orthodox,1 United Pentecostal,2 Associated Gospel and 1 Mosque were built since 1977.(Christian Science disappeared)
Very successful you say? They also believe in "Organizations " too!
---1st_cliff on 2/19/14

"I fail to see how the pagan trinity can be Biblical when "trinity" does not even appear in the Bible"

How can you be so pagan as to use the word Bible that doesn't even appear in Scripture. So the word Bible must not be scriptual huh?

At least you were honest enough to state up front that you are a JW. What ever that's worth....
---Elder on 2/19/14

Concerning hell:
Christ said this:
Matt23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Christ was speaking to a group of Pharisees and Scribes. He called them hypocrites meanining actors.

Now let us reason together, if he was condemning them how much of a threat would it be to say "how shall you escape the grave?" All men die. The grave is no threat. On the other hand, if Christ meant damnation of hell and not the grave, now that is a threat! Does that make sense?

In other words, hell is a real place. If you don't believe in hell you don't know what Christ work upon the cross was all about.
---trey on 2/19/14

David, my bible is the pure word of God. Maybe you got the wrong one.
---shira4368 on 2/19/14

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'hell is literal and hot, God is three persons'

Shira- where do you get these views from? Your Bible mistranslates original Bible words such as 'gehenna' and 'hades' for the word hell. No where in the Bible does it say 'God is three persons' as you erroneously claim.

Shira you teach a false gospel.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

\\This is a peculiar teaching of the SDA. Apparently the saved will spend a century or two cleaning up the mess on earth left behind by Hell burning itself out.

Sorry Cluny that is a JW teaching not SDA.\\

I heard this in the mid-80's during the REVELATION SEMINARS given at an SDA church.

I saw then what a tissue of contradictions and inconsistency the SDA church is.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/19/14

'Nowhere in scripture does it advocate the setting up of an organization'.

So the 1st century Christians were not organised into congregations, neither did they have a body of older men in Jerusalem giving direction to those congregations? (Acts 15:1,24, Rev.1:4 plus many more refs.) JW's follow the same 1st century pattern.

Jesus organised 70 of his disciples for a preaching activity- Luke 10:1. Jesus also prophesied a worldwide preaching activity that would obviously continue after his death- Mt.24:14. This would require immense organisation of more than 70 disciples!

True Christians have always been and continue to be organised and ARE successful as a result- as JW's experience today.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

This is a peculiar teaching of the SDA. Apparently the saved will spend a century or two cleaning up the mess on earth left behind by Hell burning itself out.

Sorry Cluny that is a JW teaching not SDA. Malachi does refer to the wicked being turned to ash. But then GOD will make the earth new like the Garden of Eden. We just get to live in New Jerusalem and watch.

Now Angels having bodies I do not understand. I know the Bible says we will have Bodies in Heaven. So how angels bodies work I do not know and really do not care. My job is to follow JESUS on what I know and follow the Bible.

By the way we SDA also teach that you have to be Born Again to be saved. Which is done by the HOLY SPIRIT.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/14

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The burning bush was all-consuming but left no ashes.

Gehenna hath no fury like the Jehovah scorned.

Jeremiah 17:10 KJV

I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
---aka on 2/19/14

'We want people to love and follow JESUS... the Lake of Fire is hot enough to burn up the wicked'- Samuelbb7.

Well thats not very loving is it!? Eternal damnation in "hell" for being a sinner for 70/80 years? Thats not the justice of Jehovah the God of the Bible- Ro.6:7. You sound more in tune with the unloving Islamic teaching of hellfire... also a false doctrine. (Jer.7:31)

I fail to see how the pagan trinity can be Biblical when "trinity" does not even appear in the Bible! The pagan trinity is easily traceable through Babylons triads to Ancient pagan Egyptian trinities.

JW's have been and continue to be tremendously successful in helping people to abandon the false trinity doctrine.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

To Samuelbb7, all respect to you.
Like your post " all we want is for people to love and want Jesus"

Agree whole heartedly, the other is Not significant, to warrant worry over. Thankyou, Brother.

Love of Jesus!
---Lidia4796 on 2/19/14

David, You say the Israelites made mistakes, but it was not mistakes but rebellion,and copying the pagans.
Jesus did not set up an "organization" did He!
Christians" are Jehovah's people not an organized sect!
Nowhere in scripture does it advocate the setting up of an organization.
Jesus said the "paraclete" (HS) would be the "Instructor"
Is this not true??
---1st_cliff on 2/19/14

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\\Samuel, the lake of fire won't leave ashes, \\

This is a peculiar teaching of the SDA. Apparently the saved will spend a century or two cleaning up the mess on earth left behind by Hell burning itself out.

Yes, the SDA teaches that Hell is on earth, and all the lost will be burned to ashes, including Satan and his demons.

I have YET to receive an explanation from SDA how a purely incorporeal being, such as a fallen angel, can be burned to PHYSICAL ash.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/19/14

Cliff thank you for discussing things.

Wood in the area was a scarcity. They would leave the upright poles to use again. Usually the cruelty determined the type of cross or stake and what else they would use.
---aka on 2/19/14

\\Cluny is a Catholic without a Pope! "Orthodoxy" is a cover for the disunity and split (schism) in the self styled "Holy Church".\\

In other words, you cannot give a single distinctly Roman Catholic doctrine I hold, David.

You might find it interesting that all of these doctrines are held by ALL the pre-reformation churches, including those that were never in communion with Rome.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/19/14

Samuel, the lake of fire won't leave ashes, it is eternal torment where the worn dieth not. A place of darkness for satan and his followers.
---shira4368 on 2/19/14

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Dear David

I have spoken and studied with Many JW. A few have joined the Seventh day Adventist church. We went through the controversy about Pagan symbols and the Trinity. After years of study we realized the Bible doctrine of the Trinity is correct. We also stopped being so concerned about what symbols used to mean.

Instead we concentrated on what the heart of people is in relationship to following JESUS. Instead of concentrating on unimportant errata. We want people to love and follow JESUS.

Yes Shira the Lake of Fire is hot enough to burn up the wicked, and leave nothing but ashes. Malachi 4:3
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/14

David, you need to start studying your bible because hell is literal and hot, God is three persons and ye must be born again to enter heaven.
where do you get your views from?
---shira4368 on 2/19/14

'mistakes and they have made many serious ones!'

Christendom's wholesale acceptance of false pagan doctrines of trinity, hell and immortal soul are serious doctrinal mistakes, none of which JW's accept. JW's speak Biblical truth.

Jehovah organised the Israelites, yet they made mistakes. 1st century Christians were led by holy spirit, yet they also made mistakes. God didn't reject them neither did it mean God made those mistakes.

If it was perfection you were after, then please stay away.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

'ONE specifically Roman Catholic doctrine I hold'

Interestingly, "The Orthodox Church... is also called Catholic since it is destined to become the church of the whole world... the word Catholic is identical with the word Orthodox."- orthodox research institute org.

Same beliefs include, "the sacraments, Mary as Ever Virgin and Theotokos, Jesus is God, immortal soul..." (orthodox resource com) the list goes on and on!

Cluny is a Catholic without a Pope! "Orthodoxy" is a cover for the disunity and split (schism) in the self styled "Holy Church".

'A house divided against itself will not stand'.
---David8318 on 2/19/14

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aka, Re,Nails, Never noticed it before but because "two" hands are the subject here plural of nail could have been used also I think the feet were also nailed (don't know for sure)
If hands were nailed overhead two could also have been used. I don't know if this proves anything or not!
I know wood was not plentiful
which also is a factor!
Was it not also tradition to bury the stake too?
---1st_cliff on 2/19/14


1. There are historians around that time that say various types of crucifix were used at the time...tau,crossbar,torture stake...etc.

But if on what jesus was or wasn't crucified is so important to you (pl)...then why won't you or anyone with your similar beliefs address the nails plural in scripture of every version that I read?

2. If you can say that the crucifix resembles an Egyptian ankh, I can say that a torture stake resembles an asherah pole which is phallic.

But to assign meaning of satanic origin onto a basic shape might be erroneous and a little misleading.
---aka on 2/18/14

Cluny, Without hurling insults, I see little difference in Roman Catholic and Orthodox!
IE: Both celebrate Mass
Both practice infant baptism
Both practice confession (to priests)
Both Pray to Saints as intercessors !
Do I have this right?
---1st_cliff on 2/18/14

\\Un-orthodox Cluny is simply a Catholic without a Pope.\\

OK, David.

I challenge you to give ONE specifically Roman Catholic doctrine I hold.

If you cannot, withdraw your statement.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/18/14

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'it's a snare and a racket'.

Cluny must be thinking of his un-Orthodox cult extorting money by means of 'Absolution Certificates' or as his RCC cohorts call them 'indulgences'.

These "Orthodox" criminals use the false teaching of immortal soul and hellfire to carry out their apostate 'indulgence' racket against common folk. And while the Greeks languish in financial ruin, the Greek Orthodox Church do nothing to help! These criminal racketeers within Cluny's un-Orthodox cult and the RCC, who extort money from the common people must rank high in crimes against humanity. They must and will be brought to book! Rev.18:2,3.

Mankind has never profited from Cluny's un-orthodox practices- they are a snare and a racket.
---David8318 on 2/18/14

Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses, but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionally defeated, and he who prevailed prevailed by the cross. For it was not because Moses so prayed that the people were stronger, but because, while one who bore the name of Jesus (Joshua) was in the forefront of the battle, he himself made the sign of the cross.-Justin Martyr [a.d. 110-165]
Heresy of Arius + Millerite Adventism = JW
---micha9344 on 2/18/14

\\Cluny is a prophet of Satanic lies and myths.\\

Please don't confuse me with the JfW's, David.

The Vetus Italica (old Latin versions of the Bible) render STAVROS as CRUX (cross).

The tomb of St. Gaudentius was found in the 19h century. His stone revealed that he was the architect of the Colesseum in Rome, which means he lived during the first century. On his stone was a palm (symbol of martyrdom) and a cross.

Now what?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/18/14

aka, The closeness of the Ankh and Christian use of the cross are more than coincidental.IMHO
I have not associated with WBTS in over 30 yrs. and don't intend to!
They are in a time warp marching to the same tune now as they were in their hayday!
I have 2 brothers and a daughter who still shun me!
Their contention that Jehovah is leading their "Organization" is false because He does not make mistakes and they have made many serious ones!
What disturbs me most is their total mind control! You're just a "cog" in a wheel, "Keep self out of sight" they sing!
---1st_cliff on 2/18/14

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cliff, you asked the original question. david says this blog is about mythology. you asked about the cross and greek words. do you have an ulterior motive?

maybe you can answer my question about the use of nails in scripture. it even says the in the nwt. maybe you can do a better job than david. he doesn't seem to do well on his own. he used to have scott at least. but, davids use of cut and paste answers from the wt society are boring. you are at least witty.
---aka on 2/17/14

'March of 1972, in WATCHTOWER'- Cluny.

Unsurprising that the un-Orthodox Cluny does not know the meaning of 'prophet', obviously because he is not and never will be a 'messenger' of God. Cluny is a prophet of Satanic lies and myths.

There is no contradiction between the Watchtower of March 1972 and Reasoning on the Scriptures publication regarding 'prophet'.

Un-orthodox Cluny is simply a Catholic without a Pope. Leading many into the apostate Roman mythological Mithra celebration on the Julian Calendar date Dec.25 (Jan.7 on the Gregorian).

The filioque controversy- who is lying and deceiving mankind into the apostate trinity dogma? Catholics or their un-Orthodox lap dogs?
---David8318 on 2/18/14

Cluny, So what it boils down to is that Coptics adopted the mythological Ankh symbol and changed it's meaning to fit their worship of Christ!
A classic example of the subtlety of mythology creeping in the back door of Christianity..Right?
---1st_cliff on 2/17/14

Aka your rantings are a joke and laughable. Open another thread if you want to discuss the Greek at John 20.

Stop hijacking threads to spout your lies and ignorance. Your lies are designed purely to hide the reality of the cross mythology.
---David8318 on 2/17/14

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\\Your knee jerk reaction to being caught out citing the lies Mr Penton has made about the WTS\\

Jehovah's False Witnesses tell enough lies about themselves without having other people help them.

In March of 1972, in WATCHTOWER, the JWs claimed to be prophets.

In 1986 in their book REASONING TOGETHER FROM THE SCRIPTURES, it says that JWs are NOT prophets.

Question: When did the Watchtower Organization lie?

Of course, it cannot help but lie as it's a snare and a racket and has done NOTHING for mankind.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/17/14 are telling me to stick to the ignore Hebrew and other supporting arguments. David...did you read the question that makes a claim about greek?

Now...If you want to address the point and not rely on watchtower half quotes. Many eye witnesses including josephus has written about crux simplex and other types of the crucifix.

Now...what about English included in the nwt that says nails plural?
---aka on 2/17/14

Aka- please stick to the issue at hand. Your knee jerk reaction to being caught out citing the lies Mr Penton has made about the WTS is causing you to go off on all sorts of lying allegations.

This thread is discussing the cross mythology not Hebrew or Greek languages.
---David8318 on 2/17/14

\\Cluny, If you have access to a museum, go to the Egyptian section where centuries BC most priests have a symbolic "cross"\\

You're talking about the Ankh symbol, which is the ancient Egyptian word for "life."

It also resembles the Chi-Rho symbol (first two letters of XPICTOC), which is the Greek word for Christ.

To Copts, an ankh means, "In the Cross of Christ is Life."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/17/14

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Cluny, If you have access to a museum, go to the Egyptian section where centuries BC most priests have a symbolic "cross"
in their hand.
What's this about?
---1st_cliff on 2/17/14

David...about might want to tell them at witchtower that franz who studied greek for only two years and was self taught in Hebrew forgot to change this...

NWT John 24But Thomas,+one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.25So the other disciples were telling him: We have seen the Lord! But he said to them: Unless I see in his hands the print*of the
nails [PLURAL]
and stick my finger into the print of the
nails [PLURAL]
and stick my hand into his side,+I will never believe it.
---aka on 2/17/14

\\The cross was in mythology long before Christ was *crucified!\\

Please give an example, and NOT from the apostate Watchtower literature.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/16/14

'Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way'- aka.

The Watchtower of 1960 Feb.15 p.126 states: "Lipsius and other writers speak of the single upright stake to which criminals were bound as a cross..."

Thus contrary to Penton's lying, hysterical and dogmatic rant, the Watchtower does in fact acknowledge Lipsius' belief in the cross. So much for Penton's scholarly insight!

However, what Lipsius believed is irrelevant and not the reason why the Watchtower cites him. What is interesting is why would a 16th.cent. Catholic want to illustrate Jesus dying on an upright stake or pale if it were clearly not the truth?
---David8318 on 2/16/14

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Words change over years ,IE
In Britain all vacuum cleaners are called "Hoovers" regardless of make! There are numerous examples !
Stavros is called a cross even though it isn't Why? This is an example of how mythology creeps in! The cross was in mythology long before Christ was *crucified!(*this word came from the word cross)and is well implanted in evangelical Christianity!
---1st_cliff on 2/16/14

\\BTW there is no word for "cross" in Koine Greek!\\

Koine Greek is not the only kind there is.

Or did you think it was?

Any any case, STAVROS is the word in Greek for what we call a cross in English.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/16/14

In Egyptian pictographs the device carried by the priests are a hand held cross of questionable origin!
I have tried to explain this but it does not get posted.
---1st_cliff on 2/16/14

If there was no Greek word for Cross, then I suppose they had to use the word Stauros, because that was the only word available
---Love.wins on 2/15/14

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James Penton, who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness but was expelled from the religion on grounds of apostasy in 1981, has claimed that the use of the single illustration by theWatch Tower Society"demonstrates so clearly how much their scholarship is affected by dogmatism". "Watch Tower scholars falsely leave the impression that Lipsius thought that Jesus was put to death in that way", he wrote. "In fact, Lipsius gives sixteen illustrations of impalement, thirteen of which show stakes with some sort of cross member
---aka on 2/15/14

Cluny , the definition of stavros in Greek is "upright stake" Your claim is that Orthodoxy goes back to the 1st century Christians who used the symbol shaped like a fish, not a "cross", which is "venerated" in Orthodoxy!
This is but another way biased translators "fixed" their beliefs by changing stavros to cross.
BTW there is no word for "cross" in Koine Greek!
---1st_cliff on 2/15/14

"The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (the mystic Tau)... By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches... and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ."

An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words-
W. E. Vine, p. 256. (London 1962)
---David8318 on 2/15/14

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