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Explain Romans 4:4

What did Paul mean in the following verse?
(Romans 4:4) Now to him that works, his reward is reckoned not according to grace, but according to debt.

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 ---David on 12/19/14
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"Prophet"- Marc (3)

"Jehovah's people today....are having a share in the fulfillment of the prophecy, 'your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy.' (Joel 2:28) Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration,...

...but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded
..." Ex. 7:1. - p. 32."

Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1971
---scott on 1/6/15

"Prophet"- Marc (2)

"We have not the gift of prophecy." - Watchtower, January 1883, page 425.

"[The fact that some have Jehovah's spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's Witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." WT May 15, 1947, page 157.

"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances..." WT, Aug. 15, 1950, page 263.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16)..."WT, Feb. 15, 1981, page 19.
---scott on 1/5/15

"Prophet"- Marc (1)

"The Greek pro-phe'tes literally means a speaker out [Gr., pro, before or in front of, and phemi', say] and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Tit 1:12.) Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is NOT that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.)"

PROPHET (Insight-2 pp. 694-698, Watchtower Online Library)

Additionally, the preface to every Watchtower magazine for the year 1972 (including the April 1st) says:

"The Watchtower is NO INSPIRED PROPHET, but it follows and explains a Book of prophecy...the Holy Scriptures..."
---scott on 1/5/15

Hey Warwick, what other pagan drug is that voice in your head telling you to take?

As I said before, we don't want your occult church associations. We have a worldwide Christian association clean of your demonic 'unchristian mysticism'. You've dispensed with the Bible because you have demonic voices in your head telling you what to believe.

Its these same occult church associations you belong to that brainwash its adherents to listen to "voices" and accept what the Nazis did. You've been sitting in this mess for so long you can't smell it anymore!

You say, 'What a joke, your source doesn't exist'. Nice try Warwick. I'm sure your goose stepping superindendents are anxious for you to find out.
---David8318 on 1/4/15

David, sour grapes! You cannot belong to Christian associations, because you are not Christian, then claim you wouldn't want to anyway. The point is you can't and the C & MA et al can. The JW are exposed as a dangerous cult in every book on the cults that I have read. The C & MA does not appear in any such book, for good reason.

You haven't told me the name of your source to protect them from the C & MA! What a joke, your source doesn't exist.

You have been taught to lie by the WTS, and they have taught you well.
---Warwick on 1/4/15

"Those who believe God uses The Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people or calling attention to his prophecies, should study The Watchtower." January 1, 1942, p. 5.
"Does Jehovah have a prophet to help [people]? Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses." WT, April 1, 1972, p. 197.
"Jehovah's organisation alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. To [this organisation] alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book." WT, July 1, 1973, p. 402.
"The Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind." WT, October 1, 1967, p. 587.

Hey, prophets Scott, David, got the latest date for Armageddon?
---Marc on 1/4/15

'multi-church associations'- Warwick.

Don't worry Warwick. Jehovah's Witnesses want nothing to do with your occult church associations. Your unscriptural mind bending techniques of 'journaling converstaions' with "God" have everything to do with demonism. Please keep to yourselves!

Adherents of 'journaling conversations with god' such as Neale Walsch promote the idea Adolf Hitler was commissioned by God... that Hitler was just another thread of the tapestry and was necessary to help us move forward- Neale Walsch,April 7,2000, interview on CNNs Larry King Live.

The voices in your head Warwick telling you to accept the pagan Mithra and trinity are the same voices that tell others to accept what Hitler did!
---David8318 on 12/27/14

Warwick, I haven't provided the name of the source of the comment to protect their identity from the occult C & MA. I don't want to be responsible for the demonic C & MA to pursue the individual in any way. However, anyone can search in the usual fashion to find the source of the comments.

You miss the point of the perverse C & MA expulsion tactics. They're not expelling people who "break the rules". The occult C & MA you belong to abuse their expulsion laws purely to seize funds & assets of unsuspecting C & MA groups who alegedly "break" C & MA creeds.

Your occult C & MA cult is set up simply to con and swindle people. Your false religion is truly a snare and a racket!
---David8318 on 12/27/14

(Romans 2:6-9)
God who will render to each one according to his deeds,.... eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil

You are reading it with Matthew Henry as your guide. Read it again without Matthew's doctrinally biased commentaries.

Now if you still don't believe what it says, show me the "Grace without Works" teaching you believe Paul taught, in the Gospels of Jesus Christ. If it's true, Jesus must have taught it.
---Dav_id on 12/27/14

'the WTS does claim to speak of God'- Warwick.

But according to Warwick, God is now speaking to him through his occult C & MA mystic contemplative practices!

If you want to join Warwick and his occult C & MA crowd who practice weirdo "journalling conversations" with "God", and other demonic practices, you get told by voices in your head that you should now "Take from Mithraism". Warwick thinks his demonic mysticism is now the mouthpiece of God!

Perhaps those "samll voices" in Warwick's head are telling him the pagan trinity is the truth in the same way those voices tell him "Taking from pagan Mithraism" rather than Christ is the truth.
---David8318 on 12/26/14

"Graham made a personal prediction "I sincerely believe..." Warwick

"Two years and it will all be over." Billy Graham (1950)

1952 came and went with his prophetic prediction being unfulfilled. According to you (12/23/14) he should have been "put to death."

Your C & MA brethren above the judgment of God?
---scott on 12/26/14

If I am wrong, tell me why Paul taught a Salvation by works in (Romans 2).
---David on 12/26/14

Paul did not teach such a thing. You have taken Romans 2:6-7 out of context.

Who is the subject of Romans 2:6-7? The context tells us whom Paul is talking about:

Rom 2:3 "And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?"

Paul is telling those who judge conduct but do the same thing that God is storing up wrath for them but to those who CONTINUE to do the things that God's love in them enables them to do, they receive eternal life. This patient continuation of good works is started by God (Eph. 2:10) in a person.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/26/14

Scott, you still have no point. Graham made a personal prediction "I sincerely believe..." never claiming he is speaking for God.

The point is that the WTS does claim to speak of God, in fact that it is the only organization which does!

See Watchtower

June 15, 1964, page 365,

April 1, 1972, pages 197, 200,

The Watchtower July 1, 1973, page 402, said that the Society is the only organization on earth that understands the deep things of God.

How can this be reconciled with the WTS stream of false predictions?
---Warwick on 12/26/14

Warwick, your occult C & MA practices have given you delusions of grandeur! It's not God that's talking to you. It's Satan.

God would not instruct a true Christian to "Take from Mithraism" as you claim 12/10/14. The holy spirit has already inspired 2Cor.6:14-18. Your 'Mithra-pagan' belief stems from your drug induced mystic practices as member of the occult C & MA. God never instructed his prophets in the verses you cite to adopt paganism. And those prophets were not worshippers of the false pagan trinity doctrine.

Your false and fallacious application of Heb.1:1,2 completes your apostate antichrist rehetoric. God has spoken to us "by means of his Son"... not you Warwick or your occult C & MA cult.
---David8318 on 12/26/14

The person who tries to work toward righteousness ends up with a debt. --Mark_Eaton

In (Romans 2:6-7) Paul teaches the reward for those who do Good works, is Eternal Life.
And in (Romans 2:13) he says "not the hearers of the Law, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Then in (Romans 4) he seemingly teaches against what he taught in (Romans 2).
You can not teach (Romans 2), because it does not support your Salvation doctrine. You teach what Paul taught in (Romans 4) because it seems to support your belief.

If I am wrong, tell me why Paul taught a Salvation by works in (Romans 2). Tell me why the Protestant church doesn't even attempt to reconcile these teachings.
---David on 12/26/14

"References...non-existent." Warwick

Hitting the holiday grog a little heavy?

References (once again): McLoughlin, William G., 1978 Revivals, Awakenings and Reform. University of Chicago Press. Chicago. pp.185. See also US News and World Report, December 19, 1994
---scott on 12/26/14

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Scott, as you have provided no proof I do not know whether Billy Graham actually said what you claim. But that is not the point as you have him giving no more than a personal opinion. He does not claim to be God's only voice on earth, or even speaking on God's behalf, does he? But the WTS does!

You say you have included the references but they are like your credibility-non-existent.

The WTS had Jesus returning in 1874 (see the booklet Our Lord's Return). But that did not happen and the WTS then prophesied Jesus would return in 1914 but He didn't however the WTS continued saying Jesus had returned for 15 years after that date!
---Warwick on 12/25/14

David...I've never been against you. -Trav

I know, and I greatly appreciated your friendship. I thought with your comment you were helping me get this blog back on the subjective question.

I really hate to see people fighting on these blogs, and with my comments, I was hoping to redirect their ire towards each other.
---David on 12/25/14

"I can only imagine Billy Graham may have said that or may have said something different." Warwick

Ahhh my friend, but I have saved you the trouble of your imagination. I have included the references and citations for you to look up.

You're welcome.
---scott on 12/23/14

So wrote a C & MA member! Please excuse me if I am underwhelmed by what this unknown person is said to have said.

"Expulsion" as you colourfully put it is normal in a legal entity if an office holder breaks the organizations stated rules. In Australia if a member of parliament lies in parliament they can be removed from office. Our right to drive a motor vehicle can be rescinded if we break the rules. Why should a pastor be held to a lesser code of conduct?

As an Elder of a C & MA congregation I know of no C & MA "creed." But I do know the C & MA is a welcome member of multi-church associations, such as would not consider accepting a JW pastor as a member.
---Warwick on 12/23/14

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David, your mastery of nonsense is overwhelming. You appear to saying that God does not speak to us. See 1 Kings 19:11-14 NWT. See 1 Samuel 3:6 NWT who did Samuel hear? Who did Job hear Job 4:16 NWT? Who did Zechariah hear, Zechariah 4:6?

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." Hebrews 1:1,2. When you reject the personhood of the Holy Spirit and denigrate the Son, calling Him a creature, it is no surprise that God does not speak to you in His "still small voice."
---Warwick on 12/23/14

Graham is not a prophet as his words failed as others throughout time. Graham is a false teacher.
---aka on 12/24/14

Paul's reasoning in Romans chapter 4 is to teach the child of God that we are justified not by works but by grace. In 4:4 he is stating that if you want to say you are justified by your works then by that logic you a not a debtor unto Christ but unto the law and your own ability to uphold the law perfectly in order to obtain salvation which is impossible.

Please refer to Eph 2:8-9
---trey on 12/24/14

If Noah had not done what God told him to do, build the Ark, do you believe God would have saved Noah and his family?
So it was Noah's faith, that saved him.
---David on 12/23/14

David...I've never been against you. Only posted the previous scripture saying what i think you were saying.
Just occurred to me that Noah was also perfect in his generations, or he wouldn't have had this opportunity...appears his faith/wisdom was pre-existant and boat ranch tested, yet further.
Your humble testimony and attitude are clear and you work at your research. Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10.
Blessings on you and yours and everyone here...searching for and embracing Truth.
---Trav on 12/24/14

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David you have not answered my question or showed where the original quote that you harp on is from.

Many times I read and heard people misquoted and had others say the Bible says this but it was not in the bible.

So again.

Are you Born Again?

John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/24/14

Scott, knowing what deceivers JW's are I can only imagine Billy Graham may have said that or may have said something different. Nonetheless he was (as you have quoted him) only passing a personal opinion "I sincerely believe." He does not claim to be God's only mouthpiece in the world.

I have a list (20 pages) of prophecies the WTS has made, all of which never happened. And the WTS does claim to be God's only mouthpiece.

Coises says Scott, foiled again!
---Warwick on 12/23/14

David no matter how you squirm and lie Morenz (though an infamous Bible-trasher) says "we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament," Being Biblical in substance they cannot be Egyptian in substance!

I have heard about Mithraism but what is Mitharism? Certainly God has not adopted Mithraism or even Mitharism, neither has Warwick.

Yes JW's have always been interested in prophecies but continually get them wrong.

You truly are in full manic fight more, frothing at the mouth because you are being exposed here. I couldn't have staged-managed it better.
---Warwick on 12/23/14

"False prophets are to be put to death"- Warwick

Good thing your former C & MA brother Billy Graham is already gone who told a rally in Los Angeles, 1950 that:

"I sincerely believe that the Lord draweth nigh. We may have another year, maybe two years, to work for Jesus Christ, and, Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe it is all going to be over ... two years and its all going to be over." - McLoughlin, William G., 1978 Revivals, Awakenings and Reform. University of Chicago Press. Chicago. pp.185. See also US News and World Report, December 19, 1994

Did we miss it?
---scott on 12/23/14

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'I have shown exactly where they have misquoted'- Warwick.

You've done nothing of the sort! The WTS correctly quotes Morenz to show where your trinity comes from- having direct links with pagan Egypt.

Jehovah's Witnesses have always been interested in Bible prophecy regarding the "last days" spoken of by Jesus- Matt.24:3. Even the disciples had wrong expectations about the establishment of God's kingdom- Acts 1:6. 1925 and 1975? That's nothing compared to your occult C & MA practices.

You state, "now God has... taken from Mitharism" (12/10/14 & 12/22/14). What does Deut.18:20 state about speaking falsely in God's name? False prophets are to be put to death.
---David8318 on 12/23/14

'God has taken it (25th December) from these long dead false Gods'- Warwick.

Rubbish! You've been told through your indoctrination into the occult C & MA cult practice of 'Christian mysticism' that God has taken Dec 25 from false gods. Did God tell you this in one of your occult 'journaling conversations' with God, or a 'mental picture' perhaps? You've probably been sucking angel dust for breakfast and having your morning occult C & MA session.

Scripture doesn't say God adopts Mithra-pagan practices. God has never used paganism- 'what harmony is there between Christ and Belial' (or Mithra)?- 2Cor.6:14-18. There is no harmony. You've "Taken from Mithraism", not God.
---David8318 on 12/23/14

David, you say "The WTS has never misquoted or claimed to make prophecies." But I have shown exactly where they have misquoted on a number of occasions e.g. Morenz and Barclay.

Prophecies? "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"(1920) said "We may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old." They were to return and live in an estate in San Diego called Beth-Sarim.

Did this ever happen David? Deuteronomy 18:20 says false prophets are to be put to death doesnt it?

The WTS also said human history was to end in 1975. Did miss it?
---Warwick on 12/23/14

I still have not found where the Monrenz is from. Why?

Ezekiel 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This is referring to being Born Again. Which JESUS stated is necessary to be forgiven of sin.

So all JW's. Since you state you have been forgiven by grace you must also be able to state you have been Born Again.

So please say it.

What matters is what is written in the Word of GOD.

The belief in the Trinity is based on the Bible alone.

It is the name singular of Father, Son and Holy Ghost a trinity that we are to be baptized in.

---Samuelbb7 on 12/23/14

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I worship only Jesus Christ our Saviour and Redeemer-Him alone, He who created the very materials from which your pagan deities were fashioned.

Openly, deceitfully, you claim I said I have "Taken from Mithraism' instead of Christ." When I said "God has taken it (25th December) from these long dead false Gods and given it to Jesus."

Delusion: you (mis)quoted Morenz in the first place!

An example of the WTS changing its mind? Hiley H. Ward Free Press Religion Writer interviewed Milton G Henschel (presiding officer of the nations then 350,000 Jehovah's Witnesses) who said transplants of hearts and other organs are a form of cannibalism."

Are organ transplants still forbidden?
---Warwick on 12/23/14

The C & MA created by A.Simpson is rooted in occult 'Christian mysticism' and 'contemplative Christianity'. Simpson wrote:

'There is, in the deepest centre of the soul, a chamber of peace where God dwells, and where, if we will only enter in and hush every other sound, we can hear His still, small voice'- The Holy Spirit, Or, Power From On High.

David Smith,a C & MA pastor: 'God can and does speak to us in multi-level methods as we open up all the vents of our soul to listen'-Listening Prayer. Smith lists 30 ways God "speaks" to believers, including mental pictures, imagination, visions, and even journaling conversations with God!

Maybe God has "told" mystic Warwick to embrace Mithra!
---David8318 on 12/23/14

Luke 6:46
And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?

If Noah had not done what God told him to do, build the Ark, do you believe God would have saved Noah and his family?

Noah believed God, and he built the Ark. If he did not believe, Noah wouldn't have built the Ark, and he would have drowned.
So it was Noah's faith, that saved him.

So we can see in this example, Faith without works would have been Worthless to save Noah, just as James taught in (James 2:21-22).

---David on 12/23/14

Why does Paul call it a Reward if it's not merited?
---David on 12/19/14

You should consider what is merited by works not faith. Is it righteousness or debt? The continuation of the verse tell us:

Rom 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

Only faith is counted as righteousness to God. The person who tries to work toward righteousness ends up with a debt that cannot be paid by themselves. As we learned in the prior chapter, only Jesus can pay that debt.

Rom 3:23-24 " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/23/14

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When Abraham believed God, God could say, "As far as I'm concerned you have never sinned. You're justified." All Abraham had done was believe, and the result of believing was obedience. But believing put him in right standing with God.
Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh (tries to merit favor, we're talking about salvation, not Christian experience and works) is the reward (salvation) not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
God doesn't owe us, but we try, "I've done this and that and you owe me Heaven. The only remedy for sins is The Gospel, Christ died, was buried, shed His Blood, and rose from the dead, and when we believe it for salvation. Just like God saw Abraham believe, then God imputes to us His righteousness.
---michael_e on 12/23/14

In (Genesis 12:1-3) God made Abram a promise, and Abram did what God told him to do.
Since Abram did what God told him to do, wasn't God obligated to keep that promise?
---David on 12/21/14

Heb_6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
---Trav on 12/22/14

Poor Marc-

I'm genuinely beginning to feel sorry for Marc. His approach to these matters is obvious. He makes an accusation (this time on 12/19 and 12/20), shouting in all caps no less, "JWS MUST WORK FOR SALVATION."

But note that as his claim is refuted and the JW position is explained through scripture, illustration (miner not minor) through the very words of JWs in print and online, he introduces new topics like prophecy and faith and then says: "You never addressed these topics!"

This way he attempts to divert attention away from the original accusation that was flatly rendered false.

It's almost as if he's a professor of Psychology with fancy credentials and all. Wink, wink.
---scott on 12/22/14

'Swindlers, slanderers, traitors, and plunderers can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but they can become and remain District Superintendents in the Christian and Missionary Alliance'- so wrote a member of the C & MA cult.

If anyone deviates from the C & MA 'Statement of Faith', will suffer expulsion:

'Expulsion: Where the accused minister has been found guilty of teaching doctrines contrary to the Statement of Faith'- C & MA 'Manual'.

They've perversely extended this to C & MA congregations who after "alegedly" deviating from C & MA creeds have had their corrupt leaders lock their church doors and seize all their monetary funds.

C & MA church leaders are indeed conmen and swindlers.
---David8318 on 12/22/14

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Again Scott avoids anything demonstrating his organisation's writings teach faith's insufficient. His benevolent man promising an expensive gift analogy is disanalogous. The JW has no guarantee the gift is theirs now. They must work (Scott's "follow his instructions" i.e. must do this, do that) and must be a member of God's only appointed prophetic organisation to, MAYBE, obtain that gift.

Yesterday, I approached 3 JWs. Even on the man's pad, the WT's own words right there, he tried to avoid the WT states that all JWs are God's appointed prophets. First it was Russell, then the governing body, then all JWs, are God's prophets. How many times does God's prophets get it wrong before they are right?

Pathetic, not prophetic!
---Marc on 12/22/14

'substitutionary death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour'- Warwick.

No Warwick, your belief is substituting Mithraism for Christ. You have told us already you have 'Taken from Mithraism' instead of Christ. You insidiously and deceitfully claim God has done this without any scriptural authority to do so! But this is one of your C & MA apostate lies.

Show me where the WTS has done any of the wild claims you make? The WTS has never misquoted or claimed to make prophecies. Reversals of law? You've really lost the plot!

And it is you Warwick and your C & MA cult who hide behind Morenz, the promoters of the pagan trinity dogma as Biblical, as you do when you try to link Mithraism with Christ.
---David8318 on 12/22/14

Are Jehovahs Witnesses [earning] Salvation by Their...Ministry?
JW official website (Jay double you dought orgh NOT CALM...sorry)

(2) Continued:

"Likewise, Jehovah's Witnesses believe God's promise of everlasting life for all who obey him. (Romans 6:23) We endeavor to share our faith with others, hoping that they will benefit from God's promises. But we don't believe that we earn our salvation by engaging in our ministry. (Romans 1:17, 3:28) Really, no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing from God. He saved us because of his mercy, and not because of any good things that we have done. -Titus 3:5, Contemporary English Version."
---scott on 12/22/14

Are Jehovahs Witnesses [earning] Salvation by Their...Ministry? JW official website (Jay double you dought calm) (1)

"No. We engage regularly in our door-to-door ministry, but we dont believe that we earn our salvation by doing such work. (Eph 2:8)

Why not? Think of this comparison: Imagine that a benevolent man promised an expensive gift to everyone who showed up at a certain location on a given date. If you really believed the mans promise, would you follow his instructions? No doubt! Likely, you would also tell your friends and family about the opportunity, so that they too could benefit from it. Even so, you wouldnt earn the gift by following the mans instructions. The gift is still a gift."

---scott on 12/22/14

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David, you couldn't lie straight in bed! Using WTS literature your have been bombarded in information which proves your deceitful misquoting, reversals of 'law', and failed prophecies. But you are 'waterproof' as all this truth runs off your back. The sign of a conman.

Now using C & MA literature show me, with quotes, where the C & MA has done any of the above.

As you know, but prefer your natural state (deceit), I believe that salvation is only possible through the substitutionary death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. John 8:44 speaks of you!

Morenz your misquoted bed-fellow in crime says the Trinity is a Biblical reality.
---Warwick on 12/22/14

David, you write 'Warwick believes salvation comes through beliving God has "Taken from Mithraism (paganism)" ' However I actually wrote "That Christian's choose to remember God sent our Saviour on 25th December has nothing to do with paganism. Actually I think it ironic that we should use this day to honour the coming of the Saviour. It had been used to honour pagan deities (as had countless other days) now God has taken it from these long dead false Gods and given it to those who follow Jesus. Taken from Mithraism, given to Christ, the living God."

But you also wrote "And according to Warwick, salvation comes through the un-Biblical pagan trinity" You are confused and there is no light in you.
---Warwick on 12/22/14


Since only JWs can possibly be saved, maybe you should not waste your time here defending, then attacking, Morenz. Wouldn't it be better to take satisfaction in the fact that you belong to God's only appointed organisation for salvation.

This is odd, however, considering that the JWs are God's self-proclaimed prophets and as we know YHWH's prophets can't err when prophesying (cf Deut 18). But what are YHWH's mouthpiece's prophetic record? Does 1878, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975 etc etc, trigger a memory?
---Marc on 12/22/14

'Bible trasher'- Warwick.

Warwick trashes the Bible in the same way Morenz does... they both link paganism with the Bible.

Morenz who blasphemously believes Christendoms trinity, which has direct links with pagan Egypt, is Biblical!

And Warwick trashes the Bible by believing 'Taking from Mithraism' and giving to Christ is perfectly acceptable (Warwick on 12/10/14), despite the Bible no where saying God has done this. Instead, the Bible states: 'What harmony is there between Christ and Belial' (or Mithraism) 2 Cor.6:14-18. None of course! But when has Warwick ever believed what the Bible teaches!?

Matt.28:19? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are mentioned alongside on another at Acts 3:13. Are they a trinity?
---David8318 on 12/22/14

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(Revelation 22:14)
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Marc, Scott, Warwick & the other David.
According to the Lords own words, Who are Blessed?
What Right do they have because of that blessing?
And what did they DO to recieve the "Right" to eat from the Tree of Life?
And what happens when someone eats from the Tree of Life?
---David on 12/22/14


The thief on the cross was not a JW.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

These came down from Heaven and are not JW.
---aservant on 12/22/14

Warwick believes salvation comes through beliving God has "Taken from Mithraism (paganism)"- Warwick 12/10/14.

And according to Warwick, salvation comes through the un-Biblical pagan trinity which has "direct links" (as per Professor Morenz) to ancient pagan Egyptian trinities.

Do I believe God is using a pagan free organisation on earth today dispensing Biblical truth which unites millions of people of all nationalities and backgrounds who live in peace and love, calling eachother brother and sister wherever they are? Yes I do!

But whatever I believe, don't for one minute think Warwick's C & MA pagan induced religious cult is the way to salvation.
---David8318 on 12/21/14

David, Morenz whom you regularly quote is a Bible Trasher and as the saying goes birds of a feather stick together.

Please quote where I have trashed the Bible.

Interesting your modernist/Bible-trasher Morenz also says the term "crown of life" is pagan but it is in the JW New World Translation of James 1:12 "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because upon becoming approved he will receive,the crown of life..." Does not this pagan term make the NWT also pagan?

The three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned alongside one another in Matthew 28:19.
---Warwick on 12/21/14

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'seek assistance from Morenz'- Warwick.

I seek assistance from both you and Morenz because you both falsely link what is pagan to Christ and the Bible. You and Morenz are what you call "Bible trashers".

'the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology... The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament'- Morenz. Where are they mentioned alongside one another?

God has 'taken from Mithraism, given to Christ'- Warwick (12/10/14). Where does the Bible say God 'takes from paganism'?

Both you and Morenz link paganism with the Bible. Two Bible trashers at work.
---David8318 on 12/21/14

David, Morenz does not substantiate that the Christian Trinity has links with Egyptian belief in the sense you claim. As usual with your ilk you either misquote or selectively quote which is deceit. Morenz continues "In order to avoid any gross misunderstanding, we must at once emphasize that the substance of the Christian Trinity is of course Biblical: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The three are mentioned alongside one another in the New Testament,

You claim the Trinity is not Biblical but then amazingly seek assistance from Morenz who contradicts you! What a joke!

I also note you do not deny that the WTS, in its antiChristian arrogance claims that salvation is available only through membership of the JW cult.
---Warwick on 12/21/14

I can't remember where I said "once saved, always saved". Can you show everyone the place I said that?

BTW, nice, but TYPICAL, diversion tactic, you and your mate Robin here.

To the point - but of course you won't answer because JWs are actually taught to divert and lie when caught in a corner - JWs believe that you must work for your salvation, as your own quote states.

Additionally, to be [possibly] saved, you must belong to God's only appointed channel i.e. The JWs.

Imagine that everyone, Scott and David believe that no one else is saved or can possibly be saved if they aren't a JW. Let me repeat this fact:


Show me I'm wrong, Scott.
---Marc on 12/21/14

Sorry..."Miner" not "Minor."
---scott on 12/21/14

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I do not believe once saved always saved. Nor do I believe that a person who loves GOD and loves others will live in sin.

To summarize some of what John Wesley said. When we are born again into the family of GOD we will follow our older brother. If we do not follow our older brother then we are not born again into the family.

So are you Born Again by grace alone into the family of GOD?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/21/14

Genesis 12:1-3)
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get out of thy country, and from thy kindred and from thy fathers house, unto a land I will show thee.
2And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing.
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee, and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken unto him, and Lot went with him, and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

In (Genesis 12:1-3) God made Abram a promise, and Abram did what God told him to do.
Since Abram did what God told him to do, wasn't God obligated to keep that promise?
---David on 12/21/14

"Salvation" Marc

Marc promotes the unscriptural notion of "once saved always saved."

To use the "minor" analogy below- Is the man "saved" that has been snatched from the dark hole in the ground? Yes, by the free, undeserved kindness of the "Savior". No amount of scratching and clawing his way out on his own would prove successful.

But if he later chooses to deliberately, purposely and unrepentantly dive back into the hole, turning his back on the "Savior" and live there without food and he still saved?

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life, But he who does not obey (apeithon) the Son shall not see life" - John 3:36, NASB.
---scott on 12/21/14

"A third requirement (for salvation)is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization"- wt83 2/15 p12.

Of course you could always join pagan Warwick who substitutes Christ for Mithra when he says he has "taken from Mithraism"- Warwick 12/12/14.

Or perhaps the way to salvation is by adopting Warwick's un-Biblical pagan trinity dogma which Professor of Egyptology Morenz states has "direct links" with pagan Egyptian trinities. Both Warwick amd Morenz "trash" the Bible by ascribing what is pagan to the Bible.

'Work out your own salvation'-Phil.2:12. Remember though, God has always used an organisation, but has never used paganism. The choice is yours.
---David8318 on 12/21/14

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The controlling body of all Jehovah's Witnesses the WTS says "A third requirement (for salvation)is that we be associated with God's channel, his organization" i.e., the Watchtower Society (Watchtower, February 15, 1983, p. 12, In fact, it is "essential" that people become Jehovah's Witnesses in order to be saved (Our Kingdom Ministry, November, 1990, p. 1). The Watchtower teaches that people must belong to the Society because, "By means of his organization, including the elders, [God] provides us with direction and protection" (Watchtower, January 15, 1995, p. 28).
---Warwick on 12/21/14


"To get ones name written in that book of life will depend upon ones works, whether they are in fulfillment of Gods will and approved by his Judge and King." Thanks for proving my case, Scott.

How come you also don't mention that to be [possibly] saved The Watchtower governing body claims you must belong to God's only appointed channel, namely the JW organisation?

I don't expect an answer now because you never bothered before but, Scott, do you know now if you will live forever on earth after you die?

And Scott, how many works, plus your faith, are enough to get you saved?
---Marc on 12/20/14

Perhaps this comparison of versions will clear this question for some people. Works do NOT = grace. Thus, no form of works will cause one to be saved.

Rom 4:4
(LEB) Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited according to grace, but according to his due.

(LITV) Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.

(Webster) Now to him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved (not by works, or for debt): it is the gift of God:

If a man were paid when he DID NOT work, that would be (a gift of) grace.
---aservant on 12/21/14

"Salvation" Marc

Marc conveniently overlooks context:

"The book of life"...symbolizes Gods unerasable records of those judged worthy of life eternal...No records will be preserved of those who are destroyed: "the memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot." (Prov. 10:7) To get ones name written in that book of life will depend upon ones works, whether they are in fulfillment of Gods will and approved by his Judge and King." w7/1/47 204

"We cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do." RFTS, 1989, Watchtower

"The one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matt 24:13
---scott on 12/20/14

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"God's written Word reveals that more than profession of belief in Jesus is required for salvation. When a person, on the basis of the Scriptural knowledge he has gained, has belief in Christ as the Savior whom God provided and shows that faith by his works, he can consider himself as being ON THE WAY to salvation." (WT, 3/1/60, pp. 134-135)

"To get one's name written in that Book of Life will DEPEND UPON one's works" (WT 4/1/47, p. 204)

Scott, should we believe your words or the Watchtower's?

---Marc on 12/20/14

Lots of good points David, Aka, and Scott. I agree works show our relationship with GOD. Love works. Romans 13:8-10.

Scott posted:
But we cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do. Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ, not payment for our works. - Eph. 2:8, 9." Reasoning from the Scriptures, pg 132, Watchtower

On this point I agree with the Watchtower.

Where I disagree is that we must be Born Again to be saved. When we are Born Again the Holy Spirit gives a new life to do works out of love.

The Watchtower has that only 144,000 are born again and they are dying of old age.

Who will lead the Watchtower when all these leaders are dead and asleep in the grave?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/14

To further the mine analogy, remember the little girl, Jessica, who fell in the well.

Was she saved when she called out?

or was it when she was found?

or was it when the rescuers came?

or was it that in response to the rescuers that came to actually pull her out, SHE had to make minor adjustments and effort for them to save her?

In perfect execution, we can use the law to save us. For me, I will continue to make adjustments (major and minor) in my life to respond to his simple instruction.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
---aka on 12/20/14

So its clear that salvation depends upon faith. But the Bible also shows that this faith must not be a dead faith but one that is alive, proved by works. Paul stresses faith but he also shows how to perfect that faith so that it will lead to salvation:

'if you confess with your mouth... you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved'- Rom. 10:9, 10 (NIV).

To have true faith, then, requires that the mind, heart and mouth work together. Its not just a matter of believing. If one does not make public declaration of what is in his heart, then his faith is dead, like a body without breath.
---David8318 on 12/20/14

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A few years back, I read about a Cave-in at a mine, where over 100 men were trapped. The mining company, hired another company to rescue these men. Also at the mine, helping in the rescue, were many of the people in the village where the miners lived. They all worked side by side.
Some worked for wages and others, out of their love for the trapped miners.

3 days later, all the miners were rescued. The mine owner was so pleased with the work of the volunteer's from the village, he gave them all a monetary reward.

All the workers received money, but the reward was not given to the volunteers, as a wage. If the volunteers had not worked, would they have received a reward? Paul wrote about our reward in (Romans 2:6-7).
---David on 12/20/14

"Routinely to a man skirt around Paul's verses here." Marc (1)

Uhh what?

Marc is at odds with the truth. Witnesses do not "Work for salvation."

Re. Abraham:

"Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. Nevertheless, a certain one will say: You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works. Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected. Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Jas. 2:17, 18, 21, 22, 26
---scott on 12/19/14

Paul is saying that the worker is rewarded for his work.

The notion of reward cannot be applied to salvation. No amount of human struggle or determination gains salvation. Salvation (the gift) is not a reward, not an incentive for human effort. The thief on the cross was not rewarded or given incentives for his work in service to God. As a thief, his service was to Satan. For his faith in Jesus as King, Jesus made a Command decision to take him to Paradise with Him. All saints get to Heaven by Command decision. John 6:44, 65

Eph 1:4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ . . . (GNB)

God chose His saints before He created the world. See Jer 1:5
---aservant on 12/19/14

Romans 4:4 shows that it is impossible to be declared righteous by works of the Law, for it demanded perfect obedience. If a man could perfectly keep the Law, he would be entitled to righteousness. A worker is entitled to what he has worked for, his 'wages' (NIV) are not a gift. To pay a man who has perfectly fulfilled the terms of a contract is not a matter of undeserved kindness (or grace).

So if a man could be declared righteous by his works under the law of Moses, then it would be a matter due him. But since no man could keep the law of Moses perfectly, no man could gain righteousness by works alone. The only way to gain righteousness, then, would be by God's "grace" through Christ-Gal.2:16.
---David8318 on 12/19/14

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"Routinely to a man skirt..." Marc (2)

"Let us not give up in doing what is fine, for in due season we shall reap if we do not tire out...let us work what is good toward all..." Gal 6:7-10

"The one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matt 24:13

"Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling..." Phil 2:12

"Works are a means of demonstrating the genuineness of our faith and our love...(1 John 5:3, 4) But we cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do. Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ, not payment for our works. - Eph. 2:8, 9." Reasoning from the Scriptures, pg 132, Watchtower
---scott on 12/19/14

Well David you are not an SDA but as an SDA I agree with your point and understanding.

We do not earn salvation it is a gift of GOD. But he does give rewards to those who serve him. A little like a soldier getting a medal for being a good soldier.

Or a son who a dad praises.

What GOD does first is leads us to be Born Again. If a person is to be Born Again. If a person is not Born Again by the power of GOD they are not saved.

---Samuelbb7 on 12/19/14

(Romans 4:4) Now to him that works, his reward is reckoned not according to grace, but according to debt.

Why does Paul call it a Reward if it's not merited? That's precisely what a reward is, an award is something given for ones services. If you don't believe me,... look it up in the dictionary.

A reward is not a wage, something God owes us. A reward is more like a gift, a gift given to those who have been Gods servants.
How can you be a servant if you don't serve God?
And how can you serve God without works?

I'm not a JW, SDA, Catholic or of any Protestant persuasion. I am merely a teacher who can teach Paul's Gospels, without undermining the foundational Gospel of Christ.

---David on 12/19/14

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