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Dinosaurs Tearing Teeth

If there was no killing/death before the fall, were the carnivores born with teeth suitable for holding prey and tearing flesh? What about stinging/biting insects?

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 ---Press_On on 3/23/15
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Katr: "Jerry Jesus DID fulfill the Law when HE died for our sin."

I know that you don't know what He meant by the word "fulfill". You think that He meant that He came to destroy the Law, but in so doing, you call Him a liar. He told you that He didn't, so why don't you believe Him?

The "Law" that Jesus spoke of in Mat 5:17-19 was indeed the Ten Commandment Law as can be shown in in the context of subsequent verses. The fulfillment of that Law was the payment of the penalty for its transgression, namely, "the wages of sin is death".

Just where do you get the impression that the wages of sin is the destruction of the Law, and thus license to sin?

---jerry6593 on 4/25/15

Jerry, I also believe Matthew was written to JEWS and we see in it Kingdom Law. The Jot and tittle thT won't pass away until all has been fulfilled also includes the Kingdom restored to Israel, that was promised under the Law. The 1000 year reign. But that is for later, not now. Thy Kingdom come , thy will be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, will be done during the 1000 year reign, described in Isaiah 60-66 and Zechariah 12-14. Kingdom Law will be ruled with a Rod of Iron. There will be smittings, droughts, etc, for those who don't obey these Kingdom Laws. So strict that if you feel your eyes will offend, pluck them out....of you have a hand that steals...CUT IT OFF. No such teaching under Grace, or the Law of Moses.
---kathr4453 on 4/24/15

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Here Jerry is TODAY, completely opposite to Kingdom Law in Matthew.

If the body is dead under grace, there is no need to pluck out eyes and cut off hands. Kingdom Law will not be a time UNDER GRACE. But this time WILL be fulfilled, just as 1 Corinthians 15 says it will.
---kathr4453 on 4/24/15

Jerry Jesus DID fulfill the Law when HE died for our sin. What did you think Jesus meant? Yes Hebrews ,just as 2 Corin 3 state. Yet we see in 2 Corinthians 3 Paul Again explains that those who walk in the Spirit, (just as Galatians states as well ..against such there is no law) are being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord. Something keeping the LAW could never do. Jerry the LAW cannot conform you to the image of Jesus Christ? So you see, there is a higher law going on here. We are not being conformed to the 10 commandments. We are being conformed to His death, resulting in His resurrection life. Again something keeping the 10 could never do. This is what GRACE is all about. HARDER than keeping the 10 commandments.
---kathr4453 on 4/23/15

Kathr: Question? So do Whatever You Are's omit the books of Matthew, Romans & Hebrews?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the LAW, till all be fulfilled.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts:

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the LAW is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the LAW? God forbid!

---jerry6593 on 4/23/15

Galatians 3:17

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

My apologies Jerry, it was 430 years after.

Question? So SDA's omit the book of Galatians? Just wondering. It appears none of you have read it or even understand what it's about. Whatever Abraham obeyed, it wasn't the Law of Moses. Maybe it was the law of faith. Those who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham! And THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH..Get it now? I didn't think so.
---kathr4453 on 4/22/15

John 1:17

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And Jerry, why don't you believe what Jesus said here too. Clearly stating the LAW was given by Moses. And here clearly makes a distinction between Grace and Law. And between Jesus and Moses, AND that the Law WAS ADDED that sin may abound. Romans 5. Did God REALLY add the LAW in the Garden so SIN WOULD ABOUND?
---kathr4453 on 4/22/15

Kathr: Your claim that God's Law came 400 years after Abraham is disputed by Scripture.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Perhaps you should think less about how to get around God's Law and more about how to obey it.

---jerry6593 on 4/22/15

Jerry, Firstly, Romans 4 concerning Abraham states that the promises given to Abraham came 400 years before the Law given to Israel, and the Law never annulled these promises. The Law is not of FAITH. Abraham's is about faith.

And you quoted scripture correct that the Law given to ISRAEL will be to them as a perpetual covenant throughout their generation. ISRAEL here is the NATION Israel. Those in the Church are not the NATION OF ISRAEL. Scripture says, those who are OF FAITH ( not LAW) are Abraham's seed and heirs according TO PROMISE.

Cursed are those who hang on a tree, that the BLESSING OF ABRAHAM might come on the Gentiles through JESUS CHRIST, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 4/20/15

Kathr: You are so intent on being right that you have no room for God's opinion.

Perhaps you would like the word "perpetual" rather than "eternal".

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Why not stick to the blog question?

---jerry6593 on 4/20/15

Zachariah 12-14 and Isaiah 60 to the end is about the Kingdom restored to Israel, or the 1000 year reign...when the KING sits on the throne. Yes Kingdom LAW will apply, as we see in Zechariah 14....where we see the heathens round about coming to worship the King. Jerry, this is not Heaven. There will be no, one full moon to the next, as we see in Isaiah and Zechariah, in Heaven. No one will be smited / meaning KILLED IN heaven for not obeying. The SHADOW of things to come in Colossians 2, re sabbath etc, is referring to the 1000 year reign of Christ.

It is YOU who has misinterpreted Isaiah and say the sabbath is something eternal that will also be carried over into the NEW Creation, where there is no sun or moon or even DAYS.
---kathr4453 on 4/19/15

The 7th day Sabbath was observed from Creation, is still observed by many faithful today, and will be observed in eternity, as it is as eternal as its Creator. It is you who are out of step.
---jerry6593 on 4/14/15

Yes you did Jerry. If the sabbath is as eternal as it's Creator, then you are saying that there was a 7th day even before the creation week. That's what ETERNAL means Jerry. So did the angels obey this law before man? Any scripture to prove this? And you claim YOU know we are going to count days and weeks in the New heaven and earth? HOW? since there will be NO SUN OR MOON. Do you also believe Heaven will have indoor plumbing too?
---kathr453 on 4/19/15

And Jerry, just to reiterate, ETERNAL is defined as having no beginning or end. Only God is eternal.
Again you said:

The 7th day Sabbath was observed from Creation, is still observed by many faithful today, and will be observed in eternity, as it is as eternal as its Creator. It is you who are out of step.
---jerry6593 on 4/14/15

Nope Jerry, like Warwick, you apply words without understanding its meaning, and teach a dogma not founded in scripture. No scripture says there will be 24 hour days in Heaven........unless...woops wait....a day is like 1000 years. Maybe the creation week then wasn't 24 hour days after all, according to your ETERNAL THEORY.
---kath4453 on 4/19/15

Kathr: How considerate of you to solicit help on my behalf. I would, however, appreciate it if you would stop assigning false quotes to me. I did not say that there would be a curse or sin in heaven. You derived that on your own from your misunderstanding of Zech 14.

You elevate sin and lawlessness to a virtue, and degrade obedience to a sin. Paul speaks of you:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now, how about sticking to the blog topic. Perhaps Warwick can educate you there as well.

---jerry6593 on 4/19/15

Warwick, it would be nice to lend a hand to Jerry over in the, "Was Paul a Jew" thread. He seems to be saying there will still be "a curse" in Heaven. I believe because there is no more curse in Heaven is because there are no more LAWS one must obey , where disobedience of the Law brings a curse. I also believe scripture uses CURSE in another way. God gave Israel the Law....obeyed brings blessings, and to disobey brings cursings, clearly taught in the OT. So possibly " no more CURSE in Rev 22, means NO MORE LAW. Just like no more sun and moon, where by there is no more Sabbath LAW.

Go help Jerry out there, unless you too are confused about WHERE Isaiah and Zechariah take place.
---kathr4453 on 4/16/15

Warwick, I also recommend taking a strongs concordance and looking up the various definitions of the word curse and cursed. Now read those definitions, and all scripture associated with those words. Now we come to the word "curse" in Revelation. Used only once in scripture, what is the definition of this particular word? Where else is it used to verify the meaning?

God told Baalam not to CURSE Israel, because they were BLESSED.

---kathr453 on 4/16/15

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Warwick, I do not claim such things. I do claim however you have issues processing what others say, and reinterpret them in your own confusion. It appears to be either a game with you, intentional, or you just have comprehension issues, or you're just a one trick pony.

I said the REASON there is no curse in Rev 22, is EXPLAINED in Rev 21. REV 21 comes before REV 22. rev 22 simply says there will be no more curse. Rev 21, not using the word CURSE goes into a detailed reason why.

I also showed Romans 8 does not use the word curse, but bondage.
---kathr4453 on 4/15/15

Kath, you write the strangest things. You claimed I had said the curse brought death when I had said Adam' sin was the cause. Sin is the cause, the curse (inc. death)is its result.

You had claimed the curse was unbiblical. I showed you it is not but as usual you acknowledge nothing, simply move to your next point. Not one of your ideas has proven to be true by Scripture.

Then, despite proving my case by Scripture you have the temerity to say: ".you are free to believe as you will, according to your own understanding" as though the many Scriptures I have given are constructs of my imagination! Jesus says He is coming to be with man. Is He, yes or no?
---Warwick on 4/14/15

Warwick, you are free to believe as you will, according to your own understanding. I imagine that is true for every one. That's why we have so many religions, denominations, and religious cults. One sees things from the top of the mountain, giving a much greater view, and another sees only from one side of the mountain, a limited view, and one is looking up from the base of the mountain, who has an even more limited view. All three can be sincere in what they see, but it isn't until you see the whole, that is, far above the mountain, that you really see anything.

Keep climbing Warwick. You haven't seen the whole yet, nor has anyone but God. Ephesians 3:14-21.
---kathr4453 on 4/14/15

What Fall are you talking about?
---learner2 on 4/13/15

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Kath, regarding "When Jesus returns to be with man" read Revelation ch.21:3 "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and God himself will be with them as their God." And 22:12 Jesus says "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

Regarding the curse on the 13th I wrote to you saying in the OT the word used for the 'curse', the result of Adam's sin not Satan's, is 'arar.' See Genesis 3:14,17, 4:11, 5:29, and 9:25. This curse brought death, disease and suffering into the world and affected the whole of creation as Romans 8:22 shows. That is sin brought the curse which was death, disease etc.
---Warwick on 4/13/15

///When Jesus returns to be with man there will be no more curse, therefore no more death, disease and suffering. See Rev 21:4, and 22:3.////

RETURNS WHERE? When Jesus returns to be with man, would not be the New Heaven and earth, as man now a new Creature will be with God^ up there! not down here. Now during the time Jesus does "return" to be WITH "MAN", would be the 1000 year reign. But we see at that end, satan will again be released, and death will certainly follow. During this time there will be a sun and moon as described in Zechariah 14. But the NEW heaven and earth will have no sun or moon! for the Lamb shall be the Light of it. It appears you have not discerned the difference between the two.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/15

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

I don't see the CURSE bringing death. I see SIN brought death. Also the above verse says Jesus destroyed him that had the power of death. Not the power of THE CURSE. The curse not in the New heaven and earth, is because the power of death, that is the devil has been destroyed through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This part seems to be omitted from your posts Warwick. But is the absolute heart of the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/15

Kath in the OT the word used for the 'curse', the result of Adam's (note Adam's sin not Satan's as he is not the sinner but the tempter) is 'arar.' See Genesis 3:14,17, 4:11, 5:29, and 9:25. This curse brought death, disease and suffering into the world and affected the whole of creation as Romans 8:22 shows. When Jesus returns to be with man there will be no more curse, therefore no more death, disease and suffering. See Revelation 21:4, and 22:3.

Therefore contrary to what you say 'curse' is the correct Biblical word.

God had a temper tantrum after Adam sinned!!! Never heard of that!
---Warwick on 4/13/15

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For God so Loved the world.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/15

"By one man's sin death entered into the world"
---Jed on 4/12/15

Revelation 21:27

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Warwick, if you want to use the word curse, fine. Jesus was made a curse for us, but I see no scripture he was also made a curse for the earth. Sin certainly has affected the earth, as well as disease in animals as well. But Jesus wasn't made a curse for those diseased animals either, or diseased plants.

YEC believe God had a temper tantrum after Adam sinned, trashing His own creation and hurled astroids at the moon, cursing it as well. Sorry, but I just can't buy that.
---kathr4453 on 4/12/15

Romans8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Warwick, the word CURSE is not even used here. And verse 23 compares our groaning with the groanings of all creation, yet at the same time, we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit are not under a curse of death.
---kathr453 on 4/12/15

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Warwick, concerning Romans 8, I would like to point out the word BONDAGE. When Israel was in BONDAGE to Egypt, it was not because God cursed them, or put them in bondage because of any CURSE. The also GROANED to be DELIVERED, and God heard their groans and cries. The same with us and all of creation waiting to be delivered out of these earthly bodies. Egypt was not delivered, but was in fact cursed by God. " I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you."

Please learn to rightly divide the word of truth or else I WILL IGNORE YOU.
---kath453 on 4/12/15

Kath the curse was instituted by God, because of Adam's sin. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death," Death is the payment for Adam's sin -Romans 5:12, 17. When Jesus returns-no more curse Revelation 22:3: no more death, mourning, crying or pain 21:4. Yet you claim there was no curse upon man! Do you say death was not part of the curse!

Scripture says Satan was the tempter, but the sin was Adam's.

As anyone can see I respond to those who contradict Scripture. Stop contradicting Scripture and I will ignore you!

I believe that what you call the YEC position is that which best fits with Scripture. However where have I said those who disagree are not saved?
---Warwick on 4/12/15

Warwick, I never said there was no curse, something again you took and twisted. Many say God cursed Adam and Eve, yet no scripture says such a thing. God cursed the serpent and the ground, but never man. Then with Noah removed the curse from the ground after the flood. So those who do say this are using the term flippantly and out of context. Is it possible the reason there is no curse in Heaven is because there is no sin In Heaven. Sin first entered the universe through Satan a
1/3 of the Angels who fell. Possibly at the time they witnessed God laying the foundation of the earth, before man was created, as Job 28 state. We really don't know how that affected creation at the time of one of those Generations of the heaven and earth.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/15

Warwick, to say all views except YEC are secular, who manipulate scripture is one of the most obnoxious arrogant statements one can make.

With that statement, I believe my conversations with you are done here. Your not here to learn, or even believe anyone but YEC are saved in the first place, showing you are here only to recruit. What is so humorous about this statement is YEC do more manipulation of scripture than they even realize. LOL!
---kathr453 on 4/11/15

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Kath, plants were food for man and animals from the beginning so they must die.

There are many views but others (not YEC) require the massaging or rejection of Scripture to make it fit with ever-changing secular views.

How do you know what has caused the damage upon the moon?

I never said animals were under the curse of the law. I just said that Scripture says that the consequences of Adam's sin has had severe consequences for all Creation-Romans 8:22. Consider how the world was destroyed and all creatures (except those on the ark) because of man's sin.

How do I use 'curse' flippantly? Remember when you said there was no curse? You had apparently never read Revelation 22:3.
---Warwick on 4/10/15

Marc, are you claiming that insects could have survived outside the ark on "floating mats of vegetation". Insects are fairly good survivors, but very, very few species are ocean going and would be unlikely to survive for a year on the waves. And no mention of all of them in the Ark. That verse is not saying everything else lived. Try this: put an insect in a plastic Baggie and press out all the air, without hurting the insect, and see how long it lives. Or put a spider in a bowl of water, and see how long it lives. Now take a rose bush and put it in a trash can, fill to the top with water, covering all leaves and branches and see how long it lives. DEATH will occur whether they have nostrils or not.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/15

Some young earth creationists claim that plants don't die, but just "wither" or "fade."5 However, the Bible does actually say that plants die. For example, Ezekiel 31:2-18 compares Pharaoh king of Egypt to the cedars of Lebanon, including, in part, "No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height, they are all destined for death..."6 Deuteronomy 20:19 says that trees can be destroyed7 and Isaiah 15:6 says that the grass "died out":

Here we go, scripture again Warwick will rebuke, because it doesn't fit into his YEC theories.
---kathr453 on 4/10/15

Warwick, your's is the view of YEC. However there are other views out there. We see the moon has somehow been affected by some sort of chaotic whatever you want to call it. But Adams sin in no way was the cause of this.

Also continue to read what God said to Noah about no longer cursing the ground. Animals were never under the curse of the LAW. I believe you use the word CURSE flippantly here. Also angels who sinned never die, however will be judged. They too are part of the creation, however Adam NEVER had dominion over angels, not was Adams sin their downfall. There was rebellion of angels long before Adam's sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/15

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In Genesis 7:22 Moses writes that the Flood destroyed all the earth creatures that had nostrils in which there was the breath of life.

Question: Do insects have nostrils?
---Marc on 4/10/15

Romans 8:22 'For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." Adam's sin brought the curse upon everything in creation.

Because of man's sin "He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark" Genesis 7:23.

"the wages of sin is death,..." Romans 6:23 and this death includes man and all other things created.

Death of man and all things created is the result of man's sin. And this death obviously did not occur before sin.
---Warwick on 4/10/15

I agree Cluny. In Adam all die. For plants and animals to be IN Adam, then Adam would have to first be created and the rest of creation pulled out of Adams left nostril. We know that Eve was in fact IN Adam as she was created from Adam. Eve is the mother of all living, yet not the mother of animals. We also know insects, like mosquitoes have BLOOD. Plants do not. If the life is in the blood, then insects live and die.

I believe for Adam and Eve to even understand...YE shall die", that some example of death had to be evident.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/15

My understanding is that the death that came into the world as a result of Adam's fall refers to human beings, not lower species.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/9/15

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Genesis describes humans and animals as Hebrew "nepesh chayyah" indicating creatures with feelings, also being air breathing. This is translated as "living creatures" in Genesis 1:20,21,and 24 referring to animals and man. This does not include insects. That God provided plants for animals and man, for food, is testimony to there being no death of nepesh chayyah creatures before sin.
---Warwick on 4/10/15

Press, the Mayfly, created at the time of creation only has a life span of 24 hours. There are insects that die after mating and stinging. So there was death before the fall....unless one is promoting evolution of the sorts.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/15

Samuel, the "SEED" is Christ. Jesus who is God in the flesh, could and did SUFFER IN THE FLESH, of the reasons He also was made flesh, who also died in the flesh, yet GOD even in the flesh was incapable of sin. Christ was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to take away sin. The Everlasting Covenant ENSURED, between Father Son and Holy Spirit an unbreakable covenant.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/15

StrongAxe, good observation. I have heard it said that if only Eve had sinned then only women would be cursed and if only Adam had sinned then only men would have been cursed. Neither is true. Adam was the appointed head of all man kind and all the earth actually. His sin brought about the curse on all the earth, not Eve's. Had only Eve sinned and not Adam, then only Eve would have been cursed. Had only Adam sinned, everything still would be cursed. The same applies to families. As a husband, I am the head of my family. If my wife or children sin, I also bear responsibility. But if I sin, they do not.
---Jed on 4/8/15

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This is an old discussion. Was Jesus only pretending to be tempted when in fact He could not be tempted. Which is what impeccable means. So this is making Jesus more GOD than man.

But while we can agree he was not peccable or had no natural tendency to sin. I believe the scripture which says he was tempted. That Adam and Eve were tempted and fell even though sin did not exist before then.

To disagree on this does not make either side unchristian or immoral. It is just a problem that as humans we do not understand how Jesus can be GOD and Man.

The way of the Cross leads home.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/8/15

Here is why I disagree with you Warwick.

The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccableJesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

This is not the first time your comments allude to your belief that Jesus was not God.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/15

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now Warwick, THIS verse concerns us today! those who are Born Again, and IN Christ. Totally opposite of Adam and Eve. AND if this verse says that "we" cannot sin, being less than God, how much more Jesus who IS God, whether in flesh or in spirit.
---kathr453 on 4/8/15

Kath, the word variously translated 'restore, restoration, restitution' is 'apokatastases' (Acts 3:21). It has a number of meanings i.e. 'complete restoration, reestablishment, restitution' Bullinger p.643.

Acts 1:6 uses a different word 'apokathistaneis' which Bullinger says means 'restore again.' Different word meaning. Acts 3:21 refers to when the curse will no longer rule-no more death, disease or suffering. Acts 1:6 concerns the Jewish hope that Jesus would restore the earthly Kingdom, defeat the Romans and make them so physically powerful that other nations would again be subservient to them.

Adam and Eve were created perfect, but with free will, not sin proof. Jesus was perfect, could sin, but didnt.
---Warwick on 4/7/15

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Acts 3:21 uses the word restitution of all things, not restore. Now acts 1:6-7 uses the word restore as in restore the kingdom to Israel, which is correctly used as restore G600 something back to it's origins that once existed before it was destroyed. G608 in Acts 3:21 is only used one time in scripture.

The original creation, beginning in Genesis God allowed sin to enter in, knowing MAN created out of the dust of the earth, created in weakness would sin. The NEW creature will not be created out of the dust of the earth, or in weakness. The NEW creature is created in righteousness and holiness, unlike Adam 1. Adam and Eve were not created PERFECT. If they were they would have been incapable of sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/7/15

Kath, I think you are willingly confused. I will try again

God's original Creation was perfect when finished. This creation was seriously marred by the curse God brought upon the whole of creation (which as Romans 8:22 says "groans" under this bondage) because of Adam's sin. Its original perfection now destroyed.

However as Revelation 22:3 says when Christ returns the curse will be no more. There will be no more death, disease or suffering (Revelation 21:4) Things will be restored (Acts 3:21) to the perfection of the pre-sin Eden.

You seem to be imagining I believe Eden will be dug up, scrubbed up, and we will live there!
---Warwick on 4/6/15


bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation), reinstate.
synonyms: reinstate, bring back, reinstitute, reimpose, reinstall, reestablish
"the aim to restore democracy"
antonyms: abolish
return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position.
repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition.
"the building has been lovingly restored"
synonyms: repair, fix, mend, refurbish, recondition, rehabilitate, rebuild, reconstruct, remodel, overhaul, redevelop, renovate,
---kathr4453 on 4/7/15

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Here is a most interesting verse. Study it carefully, and meditate on it carefully. Firstly GENERATIONS does not mean a 24 hour day or even 7 24 hour days. But WITH this sentence says IN THE DAY that The Lord made the earth and the heavens. Not in the DAYS.

I assure you Warwick will spew this or that again here at me, but Warwick wants to believe GENERATIONS here actually means "7 24 hour days".

When you are dealing with someone so closed minded and refuse to listen to others, it's evident they are not here to debate, but to brainwash.
---kathr4453 on 4/7/15

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Whatever way you look at it, it means whatever God does it is perfect. God's perfect creation was corrupted by Adam's sin but will be restored to perfection in heaven.
---Warwick on 4/6/15

Warwick, you said RESTORED right here, ...and now you deny saying it. Maybe you are the reason many here have a problem with debate. You are just so very dishonest, or maybe you use words you are not aware you are using, and have some sort of blindness to your own posts. you JUST made the there is no excuse. If you didn't mean "restored", why use the word.

I will reiterate....the NEW heaven and earth is not a RESTORED heaven and earth, anymore than the NEW creature is a restored man.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/15

Kath, it may seen a small difference but the serpent was the tempter but sin entered the world because of Adams sin-"For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

Who said the new heaven and earth are "a RESTORED TO PERFECTION old creation"? I didn't. What I said was that Genesis 1:31 says God called His finished creation "very good" i.e. perfect as Deuteronomy 32:4 testifies. And that things will be restored to that perfection when Christ returns, see Acts 3:21. What Jesus has said in Revelation 21:4 confirms this.
---Warwick on 4/6/15

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We know in the original creation SIN did enter in, via the serpent. And again the NEW heaven and earth is NOT a RESTORED TO PERFECTION, old creation, anymore than the NEW creature In Christ is a restored MAN. You believe is a restoration theology that has skewed your understanding in so many ways failing to see deeper truths.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/15

Kath, when God finished creation He said it was "very good", that of a perfect God. Deuteronomy 32:4 says all Gods works are perfect.

The Hebrew for Deuteronomy 32:4 'works/ways' is 'poal', defined this way:
Strong's concordance: doing, deed, work.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance: doing, deed, work.
Brown-Driver-Briggs: doing, deed, work.

Whatever way you look at it, it means whatever God does it is perfect. God's perfect creation was corrupted by Adam's sin but will be restored to perfection in heaven.

Corruption in heaven? No! For one example see Revelation 22:4 death, disease, misery and suffering are the result of sin, and God says they shall be no more!
---Warwick on 4/6/15

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God's perfect creation was corrupted by Adam's sin but will be restored to perfection in heaven. Or do you imagine there will be death, disease, suffering etc in heaven?
---Warwick on 3/29/15

If you equate "this " creation with the NEW Creation, and equate perfection to each, what guarantee then is there that the NEW Creation will not also fall into corruption one day? Adam and Eve were not created PERFECT as those today IN Christ are "perfect". Why? Because Adam and Eve were not IN Christ in the first place. 1st Corinthians 15 explain that the "first" Adam was earthly. Only the Last Adam, who,is Jesus Christ is perfect, and only those IN Christ are perfect.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/15

Cluny, you are just attempting to evade the truth.

The Hebrew for Deuteronomy 32:4 'works/ways' is 'poal' which is defined this way:

Strong's concordance: doing, deed, work.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance: doing, deed, work.

Brown-Driver-Briggs: doing, deed, work.

Whatever way you look at it, it means whatever God does it is perfect. God's perfect creation was corrupted by Adam's sin but will be restored to perfection in heaven. Or do you imagine there will be death, disease, suffering etc in heaven?
---Warwick on 3/29/15

\\Deuteronomy says all God's works are perfect\\

Deut. in the KJV says that.

Most translations render this passage, "All God's WAYS are perfect," or other ways that do not include the word "works."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/15

Cluny, your lack of logic is astounding. Just as astounding as your distrust of any Scripture which contradicts your worldly bonBiblical ideas. Where Scripture agrees with you, you defend it strongly. But elsewhere...

Deuteronomy says all God's works are perfect. Therefore you are saying creation was not one of God's works. Whose work was it?
---Warwick on 3/27/15

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\\ He said the result of His work was THEN "very good" which is qualified by Deuteronomy 32:4 which says all His works are "perfect." Is Scripture wrong? \\

No, but your interpretation of it is.

These two passages have no intrinsic connection.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/15

Cluny, we are discussing the situation which existed when He finished His 6-day creation. He said the result of His work was THEN "very good" which is qualified by Deuteronomy 32:4 which says all His works are "perfect." Is Scripture wrong? Are those things God makes not made perfect? They are questions by the way. But you try to evade the point by applying this to the present fallen world, marred increasingly by Adam's sin.

How about sticking to the point?
---Warwick on 3/26/15

I believe that God's creation is pretty close to perfect.
Not all defense characteristics are immediately apparent on some creatures IE
I was talking to a home owner who's property was beside a small sheep farm.In among the sheep was a llama.
The homeowner had a large German shepherd who sneaked under the fence and charged the llama,within seconds the dog was rolled under llama's feet ,came limping back. I was amazed at the protection the llama provided,this very docile and peaceful creature. Shep won't try that again anytime soon !

---1stcliff on 3/26/15

If all else fails, look at yourself.

Are you perfect yet?

I know I'm not.

But I also know that God has all the time in the world to make me perfect if I let Him.

What God Himself does is perfect.

What the world is presently is FAR from perfect, and really never was.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/15

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Cluny, if all else fails read Scripture!

Genesis 1:31 "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he."

His work applies to other than Creation but nonetheless this verse says that which God does is perfect.

Do you suggest that the earth, and all therein were originally made imperfect by God?

see also 2 Samuel 22:31 and Psalms 18:30.
---Warwick on 3/25/15

I showed Warwick "scripture" but he doesn't believe it !
IE 2Pet.2.12 for one !
---1stcliff on 3/25/15

Warwick, "very, good" is not the same thing as "perfect".

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/15

StrongAxe, stick to Scripture!

In Genesis 1:31 God declared His creation "very good" which as per Deuteronomy 32:4 means "perfect." Do you claim that death, disease and sin were considered "perfect" by God?

And you incorrectly think this was after Adam's sin, and the curse already in operation! God killed creatures to make coverings for Adam and Eve, but this also was, as Scripture shows, after Adam's sin, and a consequence of it.

Where had Satan lied at this point in time?

Where does Scripture say angels had mates?

I think you should ponder God's word more and spend less time in your own imaginings.

If you say I am wrong show me so with Scripture.
---Warwick on 3/25/15

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Warwick, **Our loving saving God would not consider His Creation perfect if animals were already ripping others apart**
First thing God did was rip apart two animals to clothe Adam and Eve...go figure !
---1stcliff on 3/25/15


You said: Our loving saving God would not consider His Creation perfect if animals were already ripping others apart.

But even though it was perfect, it contained a lying, manipulative, seductive serpent.

(Which brings up an interesting point. Since all creatures except Adam had mates, there must have been a Mrs. Serpent, but there is no mention of her - yet she also fell under Mr. Serpent's curse, even though she did nothing wrong. Something to ponder!)
---StrongAxe on 3/25/15

Press On, when God finished Creation He said it was "very good" i.e. perfect-Deuteronomy 32:4.

Our loving saving God would not consider His Creation perfect if animals were already ripping others apart.

Adam rebelled against God's direct order, bringing the curse upon Creation. Read ch.3 where God spells out some details of the curse, brought by sin. Even the ground was cursed vs.17.

Roman's 8:22 says all Creation then, and now, groans under the curse. Fortunately a time will come when all will be restored (because of Jesus sacrifice) to Eden's perfection (Acts 3:21) and there will be no more curse Revelation 22:3 or "death, crying or pain-21:4.
---Warwick on 3/24/15

Thank you for your comments.
---Press_On on 3/24/15

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No Warwick, I don't pull stunts like that.
I said ask you to see your "scriptural" answer.!
Nimrod is reputed to have been shredded by a wild boar.
These creatures have razor sharp tuscs on both sides of their mouth, not used for chewing grass !
Tooth size proves very little, Ant eaters have no teeth !
---1stcliff on 3/23/15

Is this press_on Cliff perhaps?

This question has been answered over and over. It is based upon untestable assumptions, not upon Scripture.

An animal's teeth do not prove what that their diet is. Research (for one example) panda bears who use their teeth to shred bamboo. See the massive canine teeth of the fruit bat, larger than those of a lion on a size to size basis, which are used to eat fruit.

The massive claws of the coconut crab could just as easy rip flesh but are used to tear coconuts apart.

Gorillas are almost 100% herbivore-look at the teeth.
---Warwick on 3/23/15

Ask Warwick to explain this to you !
---1stcliff on 3/23/15

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