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Is The Trinity Real

Since the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and since the Son of God (Jesus Christ) is eternally begotten of the Father, how can any of you who say Filioquism is not true also say the Trinity is not true?

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 ---Scott_R._Harrington on 11/11/16
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Why do you ignore this Scripture... MarkEaton.

Yes why do you ignore Acts 4:12 MarkEaton?

"...for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved".

Jesus [or "Yehsua", meaning YHWH is Salvation], is the only one on earth ["under heaven"], who has given a perfect sacrifice for our sins and offer his sacrifice to God- Hebrews 9:13.

Everything Christ does including his sacrificial death is "all to the glory of God the Father"- Phil.2:11.

You deny the death of Jesus because your trinity dogma tells you Jesus is eternal, and didn't die.

There is no salvation on the trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 11/24/16


//The thief did not say "Jehovah" (Lu.23:42)// aservant.

The thief did not say "trinity" either.

The thief said "Jesus" because that is who he was talking to.

On that day Jesus died, which is something Trinitarians deny. You deny the death of Christ because you teach Jesus is God, who cannot die.

Your trinity dogma is thus antichrist because it denies the death of Jesus- the fundamental basis for salvation- 1 Cor.15:3.

There is no salvation in the unscriptural trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 11/23/16


//they usually pronounced it Adonai - i.e. Lord, and equivalent of Kyrios// Strongaxe.

Yes, kyrios is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Adonai. But trinitarians, like the superstitious Jewish Pharisees, erroneously refuse to use YHWH and incorrectly use 'LORD' or 'GOD'. Those errant Jews only used Adonai when speaking YHWH. But the Jews were faithful in keeping YHWH in the original Hebrew MSS text. You trinitarians are far more reprehensible because you remove all trace of YHWH altogether. You view changing and twisting scripture to be a virtue!

//[YHWH] WAS... NOT in the NT//- Strongaxe.

Again I say... PROVE IT!!

Of course YHWH was in the NT. Why would it not be?
---David8318 on 11/23/16


Is john9346 the best trinitarians can offer?
---David8318 on 11/23/16

Why do you ignore this Scripture, have you removed it from your NWT?

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved".

YHWH will not save you. Jehovah will not save you. Jesus alone can save you.

But only if you do not deny Jesus before men.

But you DO deny Jesus before men, specifically the deity of Jesus.

So how do you expect to get to the Father when you deny Jesus before men?

By obeying the Law? By being Jewish? By showing hate to all other seekers of God? By some special selection of Jehovah?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/23/16


//Several early Greek writers of the Christian church testify that the name was pronounced "YAHWEH"//- as quoted by john9346 from the Encyl.Judaica.

Excellent piece of information! Listen up Strongaxe! Note what john9346 has quoted: "Early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced "YAHWEH".

God was not called 'Jesus' or 'Lord' by "early Greek writers of the Christian Church". Proof from john9346 that the pagan trinity was not taught by the Christian church of the 1st century.

Proof again that YHWH [Yahweh] was being used by Greek writers of the early church.
---David8318 on 11/23/16




"Sir, I'd ask you to seriously think on these words of the Lord Jesus, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8:24"---john9346 on 11/22/16
John what does that verse have to do with the doctrine of the trinity?
---josef on 11/23/16


Acts 2:21 (quoting from Joel 2:32 where YHWH appears), 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved'.
. . . start using it john9346! ---David8318 on 11/23/16


Lying ---David8318 implies one has to say a name "correctly" to be saved, that he will be saved BECAUSE he used the "right" word.

Again He promotes the Author is lying in Acts 2:21, though Lk 23 proves Acts 2..

Lk 23:42 . . . Jesus, Lord, remember me . . .
Lk 23:43 And Jesus said . . . shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief did not say "Jehovah".

True Christians know nothing they do determines their salvation - Eph 2:8-9.
---aservant on 11/23/16


David8318:

You wrote: Kyrios is the Greek word for 'Lord'. YHWH is the Hebrew name for God and is not the equivalent of kyrios.

Yet when the Jews considered YHWH to be too holy to pronounce daily, they usually pronounced it Adonai - i.e. Lord, and equivalent of Kyrios (except when in the combination "Lord YHVH" when they pronounced it Elohim - i.e. God.

You still didn't answer where WTS pulls Jehovah from in NT Greek which doesn't use it. The fact that it WAS in the LXX but NOT in the NT means they COULD have used it if they needed to - but they didn't, which speaks volumes - those same bible writers considered the two terms equivalent.
---StrongAxe on 11/23/16


//"Kyrios is the Greek word for 'Lord'. But it is not the equivalent of YHWH."

Are you able to proove this without Watchtower Material??// john9346.

Seriously! Is john9346 for real. Let me say it slowly for you.

Kyrios is the Greek word for 'Lord'.

YHWH is the Hebrew name for God and is not the equivalent of kyrios.

John9346 bizarrely asks to "prove" this wihout WTS material?

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that YHWH is Hebrew and kyrios is Greek! So how can kyrios be a substitute for a Hebrew name?

Is john9346 the best trinitarians can offer in defence of their dogma?
---David8318 on 11/23/16


//mistranslations of others// strongax.

Strongaxe thus agrees the KJV is a "mistranslation" by erroneously omitting YHWH in the 6281 times YHWH appears in the OT.

//[YHWH] doesn't occur in the Greek//- strongax.

Yes it was in the Greek!

Scholar George Howard says: 'Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint- LXX] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the NT writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text'.

"The oldest LXX MSS now available to us have the tetragram written in Hebrew characters [YHWH] in the Greek text" (ref. previously provided).
---David8318 on 11/23/16




"Jehovah: A mispronunciation of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible,:" The Jewish Encyclopedia

"JEHOVAH -"an erroneous pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, or four-lettered name of God made up of the Hebrew letters Yod He Vav He. The word "Jehovah" therefore, is a misreading for which there is no warrant and which makes no sense in Hebrew." THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPAEDIA



If y
---john9346 on 11/23/16


//ssalvation is depended upon the Name Pronunciation of Jehovah// john9346.

john9346 is wrong again. It has nothing to do with pronunciation.

The WT article (as quoted by j-9346) states 'Have you been taught to use God's name, Jehovah?'

The point being made is, Do you use God's name? Pronunciation is not the issue. Yes 'Yahweh' is more correct, but 'Jehovah' is more recognisable. But "are you using God's name"? Trinitarian John9346 emphatically says "NO" and unsurprisingly misses the point completely.

Acts 2:21 (quoting from Joel 2:32 where YHWH appears), 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved'.

Better start using it john9346!
---David8318 on 11/23/16


"THE TRUE PRONUNCIATION OF THE NAME YHWH WAS NEVER LOST. Several early Greek writers of the Christian church testify that the name was pronounced "YAHWEH". This is confirmed, at least for the vowel of the first syllable of the name, by the shorter form yah,"

"The personal name of God of Israel is written in the Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH and is referred to as the "Tetragrammaton." At least until the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. this name was regularly pronounced with its proper vowels, as is clear from the Lachish Letters, written shortly before that date." ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA pg 680 Vol 7
---john9346 on 11/23/16


This idea that you have to pronounce the name correctly or that GOD will not save you. is false.

We are saved by Grace alone.

But many JW's ignore that Jesus said to be saved you must be Born Again. John 3. If you are not born again you cannot see the Kingdom of GOD. So why ignore this passage to set up a name pronunciation as more important then the words Jesus commanded us?

We speak here in English. Germans in German etc. We don't pronounce all words the same in the entire world.

But we can all love GOD and love our neighbor. Which is a lot harder and what we are commanded to do.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/23/16


david8318 ask, "So again, why do you use "Jesus" ['Yeshua' Heb., and 'Iesous' Gr.]?"

And again, I answered your question and to emphasize again as a JW, your ssalvation is depended upon the Name Pronunciation of Jehovah. As Christians, Name Pronunciation is irrelevant.


"Have you been taught to use God's name, Jehovah? If not, your salvation is in jeopardy, for "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved"! -- Acts 2:21, compare Joel 2:32."

Watchtower August 15, 1997 pg6
---john9346 on 11/22/16


david8318 states, "Kyrios is the Greek word for 'Lord'. But it is not the equivalent of YHWH."

Are you able to proove this without Watchtower Material??

David, the OT Language was Hebrew not Greek and the NT is Greek. The Greek Word for Lord is "Kurios."
---john9346 on 11/22/16


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david8318 states, "
Thus it is not a lie to include YHWH [Jehovah] in the NT. But it is a blatant lie for john9346 to remove YHWH [Jehovah] from Hebrew translations of the scriptures."

According to the following it is a lie and very deceptive...


"While inclining to view the pronunciation "Yah.weh" as the more correct way, we have retained the form "Jehovah" because of people's familiarity with it since the 14th century.(3)"
Freddy Franz Watchtower December 1, 1950 page 474

Note, "While inclining to view the pronunciation "Yah.weh" (as the more correct way,")
---john9346 on 11/22/16


Josephstates, "John I am not saying that Peter did not consider himself christian, I don't know. I'm simply saying that there is no record of him, or any other follower, referring to themselves as one."

And sir again i will ask you doesn't anyone include Peter and all those he was writing??

What about Paul before Agrippa see Acts 26:27-29??

Joseph said, "Therefore I am not offended by your insinuation that because I do not believe in the doctrine of the trinity, I am not christian."

Sir, I'd ask you to seriously think on these words of the Lord Jesus, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8:24"
---john9346 on 11/22/16


Aservant:

//1st, I will answer however I please. You dictate nothing to me.
To me, you are hypocritical, foolish, and are worthy of being ignored.--aservant on 11/22/16

(---Nicole_Lacey on 11/5/16 ---Cluny on 11/4/16
---aservant on 11/21/16)

Daring, you addressed me first!

Don't get mad at me because you can't tell the difference between a Bible and a commentary.

Hint: the answer is on the cover of the book.
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/22/16


David8318:

You wrote: If in these 7 places 'JEHOVAH' is good for the KJV, why not the other 6821 occurrences of YHWH in the OT?

Why does the New World Translation use the word "Jehovah" in the New Testament many times, when it doesn't occur in the Greek even once? Look to your own mistranslations before you criticize the mistranslations of others.
---StrongAxe on 11/23/16


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//Note KJV uses "LORD" or "GOD" in all caps to specifically indicate that it is the tetragrammaton// strongaxe.

That doesn't mean its correct! The KJV of 1611 employs "JEHOVAH" in 7 places where YHWH occurs: (Jud.6:24)

Gen 22:14, "Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh"

Ex.6:3 & 17:15, "the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH..."

Psalm 83:18, "whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth"

Isaiah 12:2 & 26:24, "for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength"

If in these 7 places 'JEHOVAH' is good for the KJV, why not the other 6821 occurrences of YHWH in the OT?
---David8318 on 11/22/16


//You can't see or lift faith, belief, the Holy Spirit, or the 9 Spiritual gifts to hold or read, so I supposed they are invalidated// aservant.

No you can't see or lift those things but they are spoken of in scripture and you can read about them. Therefore they are part of Christian teaching because they are in scripture.

The 'trinity' is not in scripture. That's the difference.

Time to face the reality. The trinity is a false doctrine.
---David8318 on 11/22/16


David8318:

You quoted Deut. 6:4.

That grammatical structure (KJV is similar) doesn't make sense (e.g. modifying a proper noun by a quantifier). The Jewish version makes more sense. The one sentence Jews consider most important of all others, which they quote as they are about to be martyred is "Shma Israel, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai ehad", which is best translated:

"Hear, [O] Israel: YHVH [is] our God. YHVH [is] one."


You wrote: So again, why do you use "Jesus"

Probably for the same reason Jehovah's Witnesses use Jehovah rather than Yahweh or similar. (Yes, in some languages they do, but look at the name of the organization).
---StrongAxe on 11/22/16


Hey fake Christian... aservant.

The scent of a seething trinitarian hangs heavy in the air. Seething because at every turn, aservant reveals his polytheist bent.

Aservant now wants us to believe God begets "Gods" in the same way lions, sharks and eagles do. So aservant has a pride of Gods? Perhaps a shoal of Gods or maybe a convocation of Gods? Just how many Gods does aservant want? I'm sure his trinitarian belief leads him into a pantheon of false Gods, who knows.

True Christians however have just one God- Jehovah [YHWH].

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" [YHWH]- Deut.6:4 (American Standard Version).
---David8318 on 11/22/16


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//There is no j in Greek and Hebrew// john9346.

So again, why do you use "Jesus" ['Yeshua' Heb., and 'Iesous' Gr.]? The answer is too awkward for john9346!

Kyrios is the Greek word for 'Lord'. But it is not the equivalent of YHWH [Jehovah]. Neither is Adonai the Hebrew word for 'Lord'.

The Jews knew YHWH should remain in the Hebrew text. Even Greek writers of the Septuagint (LXX) in Jesus' time kept YHWH in the LXX. The Hebrew name for God "YHWH" can be seen in the Greek text in MSS fragments of the LXX today.

Thus it is not a lie to include YHWH [Jehovah] in the NT. But it is a blatant lie for john9346 to remove YHWH [Jehovah] from Hebrew translations of the scriptures.
---David8318 on 11/22/16


"So, anyone doesn't include Peter??" John I am not saying that Peter did not consider himself christian, I don't know. I'm simply saying that there is no record of him, or any other follower, referring to themselves as one. Nor do I. Therefore I am not offended by your insinuation that because I do not believe in the doctrine of the trinity, I am not christian. To me christian is a religious term, not a spiritual one. I know who, and what I am, spiritually. I feel no need to defend or promote myself, against anything, or as anything, in a religious sense. Concerning my personal relationship with Christ, Father knows that I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, nor do I believe, Father is shamed because of me.
---josef on 11/22/16


Joseph states, "Yes, and Peter never refers to himself as christian."



"But if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name."

Note Peter's Word, "if anyone suffers as a Christian,"

So, anyone doesn't in cludePeter??
---john9346 on 11/21/16


david8318:

"So why are you using "Jesus"?"

As Christians, we understand Word Pronunciations is not a matter of our Eternal Salvation... This is not so to Jehovah's Witnesses.

The New World Translation add Jehovah. This is false because the NT was written in Greek and the Greek Word for Lord is "Kurios." not Jehovah.

The New Testament was written in Greek not Hebrew, OT in Hebrew Yhwh NT Greek Kurios.

To admit Jehovah isn't a True Pronunciation and still teach it is the True Pronunciation is lying/deceptive. It is more dangerous when you make the name usage a matter of one salvation...
---john9346 on 11/21/16


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Question? Where did the tetragrammaton YHWH, and the transliteration Yahweh originate? I have always understood the tetragrammaton YHVH and the transliteration Yehovah, pronounced Yeh-ho-va, to represent the proper name of the one true GOD.
---Josef on 11/21/16


Hey fake Christian, ---David8318, who thinks God lies, I will make this easy for you

A lion begets a lion, and both are powered by a lion spirit.
A shark begets a shark, and both are powered by a shark spirit.
An eagle begets an eagle, and both are powered by an eagle spirit.

These 3 examples are patterned after this:

God begets a God, and both are powered by God's Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are essentially the same in SPIRITUAL function, activity, and objective.
---aservant on 11/21/16


//There is no j in Greek and Hebrew// john9346.

So why are you using "Jesus"?

If you claim 'Jehovah' is a mis-pronunciation of YHWH, then the same is true of using 'Jesus' [or 'Yehshua' (Heb.), meaning: "YHWH is Salvation", or Gr. 'Iesous'].

However, using "LORD" is a mispronunciation of YHWH [Yahweh or Jehovah]. Trinitarians remove YHWH [Jehovah] from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures not because they want to remain loyal to scripture, but loyal to their false pagan trinity dogma. "Remove and Twist" is the trinitarian formulae when translating.

Its obvious 'Jehovah' and 'Jesus' are not the original pronunciations. But they are the most recognised.
---David8318 on 11/21/16


The difference of course between the word 'Bible' and the word 'trinity' is that the Bible is something we can see, pick up, hold and read. ---David8318 on 11/21/16

You can't see or lift faith, belief, the Holy Spirit, or the 9 Spiritual gifts to hold or read, so I supposed they are invalidated.


1Jn 5:7 . . . the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ARE one.

The "three in one" is a Spiritual fact. Men define a unit of three people as a "trinity" = tri unity.

For example, If I were to define David as deceived, fake, and liar, these 3 adjectives find unity in 1 David. "God" is one word composed of 3 personalities.
---aservant on 11/21/16


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Sir, have you not read Peters words in 1 Pet 4:16??
Yes, and Peter never refers to himself as christian. Read it again.
Actually they do the Hebrew Word God (Elohim) is plural in Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7-8. John do you actually believe the plural tense of the word elohim represents plurality in the Supreme being of God? The word elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax, but is singular in meaning. The plural is used in a singular context to denote the Fathers superiority or supremacy. Note, Moses was called to be as elohim, (Exodus 4:16, 7:1) to denote the supremacy of the power given to him by the Father over the power of Pharaoh and the gods of Pharaoh. Yet we know Moses was, and represented, a singular individual.
---Josef on 11/21/16


if he is prepared to twist scriptures...
---David8318 on 11/18/16

No, it is you who twist Scriptures. You who have written in a Jeffersonian-style your own NWT guaranteed to remove any deity from Jesus, which is your purpose is it not?

You are not Christian if you deny Jesus before men. I expect Jesus will deny you before the Father, whom you do not know.

Jesus told us that no one knows the Father except Him. Jesus also told us that on that day we will know that He is in the Father, we are in Him, and that He is in us.

Therefore, if you're not in Christ, how exactly do you plan to get to the Father?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/21/16


joseph states, "I said they never referred to themselves, as christians."

Sir, have you not read Peters words in 1 Pet 4:16??

Joseph states, "None of those verses state that God is three persons, nor invalidate the verse I quoted."

Actually they do the Hebrew Word God (Elohim) is plural in Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7-8.
---john9346 on 11/21/16


In the being of God (essence) there exist Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are co equal, co eternal, and co existing, 3 distinct persons. The Father is not The Son, The Son is not The Father, and The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is he the Son.

These 3 persons make up God not 3 different Gods, but only 1 true Living God.

---john9346 on 11/21/16


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//The word "Bible" is never mentioned in the Bible either//

I never said the word "Bible" is in the Bible.

I have previously given my reasoning on this to john9346 who employs the same fallacious argument as you do.

The difference of course between the word 'Bible' and the word 'trinity' is that the Bible is something we can see, pick up, hold and read. The trinity dogma is not like that at all. The trnity is a pagan concept which dates back to the ancient Egyptian era which is not a Bible teaching and certainly not taught by Jesus Christ.
---David8318 on 11/21/16


Jehovah is a mispronunciation of the name of God in Hebrew "Yhwh."

There is no j in Greek and Hebrew.
---john9346 on 11/21/16


Correction to previous post. This line was mean to read.
However, I can accept that the Father revealed Himself in the N.T. In the Person of Jesus, and through the inspiration, wisdom, and power of His Spirit. Refs. Mat 1:23>2Co 5:19>1Ti 3:16 For Christ is the burden removing, yoke destroying, power of God, manifesting Father's Wisdom, and Authority. See Isa 10:27>1Co 1:24 Jesus, as well as believers, are anointed with the Holy Spirit which provides those willing to listen, with insight, knowledge, and an understanding of Himself. Act 10:38>1Jo 2:20,27 The only difference between the believer and Jesus, apart from the fact that Jesus is Lord and Savior, is that Jesus received His Spirit without measure. Heb 2:17>Jhn 3:34
---Josef on 11/21/16


Jesus is not God.
---David8318 on 11/18/16

This is your truth.

To you, only the Father is God.

Yet, your cult misses many facts.

Can we agree that Jesus is the Son of God, and Jesus is begotten of the Father? However, the Father was not involved in the Incarnation, it was the Spirit. Therefore, the Spirit must be God also. Otherwise, Jesus could not be begotten of the Father.

If Jesus is begotten of the Father, and the Father is God, is the Son not of the same essence as the Father? Can a bad tree bear good fruit? Can a bitter well bear sweet water?

Because you deny the deity of Jesus, please define what it means to be the Son of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/21/16


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//Yet YHWH CANNOT be seen in many existent Greek NT MSS today!// strongaxe.

That's because existing Greek MSS only date back to around the 4th Century by which time the trinity apostasy had taken hold. If trinitarians are prepared to remove YHWH from the Hebrew text which you unashamedly do, they certainly would remove YHWH from the Greek.

You cannot prove YHWH was not in the original Greek MSS text.

It was an erroneous Jewish practice not pronouncing YHWH. But at least the Jews kept YHWH in the Hebrew text. You are far worse because you completely remove YHWH altogether. You twist and change scripture to suit your pagan doctrine.
---David8318 on 11/21/16


Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 4:6 God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father.

True, the word Trinity no where occurs in the Bible. Nor do I read the word Rapture. Yet there are Bible verses people use to support these teachings, and some come to these beliefs and there are champions for different views. Doctrines are imperfect. Scripturally, THE FATHER is GREATER than the Son. THE SON does not consider equality with God something to be grasped. THE SON does not know when he will come again. Only the Father. God says, Sit at my right til I make your enemies a footstool.
---mike4879 on 11/21/16


. . . you do believe there are 3 separate Gods . . . Trinitarianism really is polytheist. ---David8318 on 11/19/16

trinitarianism
polytheist

These terms are not in the Bible. These words are invented by men. You trust what men say and DISTRUST what the Author says.

To you, God is the liar. Men tell the truth. It won't matter to a fake Christian like you, but GOD says that He is the Truth and CANNOT lie, unlike you and the other men who wantonly substitute His truth with your lies.

1Jn 5:7 . . . the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ARE one.
---aservant on 11/21/16


David8318:

You wrote: Given that the word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible, neither did the word "trinity" pass Jesus' lips in any form whatsoever, john9346 statement is based not on scripture but on an emotional attachment to a false doctrine.

The word "Bible" is never mentioned in the Bible either. Does that therefore mean the Bible is false doctrine too?
---StrongAxe on 11/20/16


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"False, the apostles accepted and were not ashamed of the label of being called, "Christian."> I said they never referred to themselves, as christians.
"Gen 1:26, 3:22, and 11:7-8---john9346 on 11/20/16"> None of those verses state that God is three persons, nor invalidate the verse I quoted. Three can be as one, but three will never be one, numerically, as indicating a number. Gen 1:27 reads "So 'God' (the Father, through His Word),created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them." However, I can accept that the Father reveals Himself in the Person of Jesus, and through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit.
---Josef on 11/21/16


//Exactly. So addition of YHWH to NT is purely doctrine-based eisegesis//- strongaxe.

How do you know YHWH was not in the original NT text?

Strongax hypocritically complains YHWH is added to the NT when he omits YHWH from OT scriptures when there is abundant evidence for it to be used in the OT.

The Jews di not substitute YHWH for 'Adonai' in the written text. Even though YHWH was not pronounced, they still kept it in the scriptural text. Its there to be seen and used.

You trinitarians completely remove YHWH from the OT text altogether for doctrine-based eisegetical reasons.

When Jesus quoted from the OT, it is right that YHWH [Jehovah] should appear in the NT text (Luke 4:18).
---David8318 on 11/21/16


Joseph states, "That's presumptuous of you John. However seeing that neither Jesus nor his follower referred to themselves as "christians", I'll take no offense."
False, the apostles accepted and were not ashamed of the label of being called, "Christian."

The "Trinity." is 1 God revealed in 3 persons see Gen 1:26, 3:22, and 11:7-8 see, See, Acts 11:26, 26:27-29, and 1 Pet 4:16."
---john9346 on 11/20/16


david states, "
The trinity on the otherhand is nothing like that. The word trinity is a man-made word used to describe a man-made concept and false doctrine that is not found anywhere in the holy scriptures (otherwise known as the 'Bible' john)."

Well you obviously haven't been listening to the words of the Lord Jesus in Matt 28:19, and Jn14:16-17.
---john9346 on 11/20/16


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David8318:

Exactly! Yet YHWH CANNOT be seen in many existent Greek NT MSS today!

Apostate trinitarians are far worse because they do replace YHWH [Jehovah] with the word "LORD" in every place where YHWH appears in the Hebrew text.

They follow Jewish practice. Note KJV uses "LORD" or "GOD" in all caps to specifically indicate that it is the tetragrammaton, rather than "Lord" or "God".

You hypocritically complain JW's use YHWH in the NT, when you blatantly omit YHWH in the OT when there is abundant evidence for it to be included!

I? Hypocritically? I just quote KJV, the version most people are familiar with. Jews would say "Adonai" too.
---StrongAxe on 11/19/16


//The Jews considered the tetragrammaton was too holy to pronounce, so they used the word Adonai (my Lord) instead//- strongaxe.

But YHWH was still in the Hebrew text. They did not replace YHWH with Adonai when making copies. YHWH can still be seen in many existent Heb. MSS today.

Apostate trinitarians are far worse because they do replace YHWH [Jehovah] with the word "LORD" in every place where YHWH appears in the Hebrew text. You do this not because the name YHWH is too holy (as the Jews believed) but because it doesn't fit in with your pagan trinity agenda.

You hypocritically complain JW's use YHWH in the NT, when you blatantly omit YHWH in the OT when there is abundant evidence for it to be included!
---David8318 on 11/19/16


David8318:

The trinitarian formula is "Father is God. Son is God. Holy Spirit is God. Father is not Son. Father is not Holy Spirit. Son is not Holy Spirit".

To use a human analogy, your hand is you, your foot is you, your head is you, but your hand is not your foot, your hand is not your head, and your head is not your foot. One entity, but several different and distinct parts of that single entity.

Also, remember that 99% of the people on these blogs are trinitarians, so calling almost everyone here pagans pushing false worship is not likely to give you much credibility here.

There are no original Greek texts available.

Exactly. So addition of YHWH to NT is purely doctrine-based eisegesis.
---StrongAxe on 11/19/16


//Father = God, Son = God, Holy Spirit = God// aservant.

Oh I see. So you do believe there are 3 separate Gods. Just as there are separate Mr Jones' in your illustration. Trinitarianism really is polytheist.

You like MarkE have no respect for the Bible. You masquerade as "christian", but underneath you really are pagans pushing your false triadic worship. You Trinitarians have seriously lost the plot.

Col 1:16-18, Col. 2:9, Heb. 1:8, Ephesians 3:9 do not teach Jesus is God nor 'God the creator'. This is aservants trinitarian lies. All things were created 'for him [Jesus] and through him'.

Simple truth is, Jehovah God [YHWH] is the Father and Creator. Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
---David8318 on 11/19/16


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John 1:18 states, 'No one has ever seen God...'.
Truth is, Jesus is not God. John 1:34 tells us, 'And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God'.
Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. ---David8318 on 11/18/16


John 1:18 states, 'No one has ever seen GodG2316
G2316 = SUPREME Divinity = Father
IOW, 'No one has ever seen God (the Father)

Col 1:16-18, Col. 2:9, Heb. 1:8, Ephesians 3:9 = Jesus is God = God the Creator

Father = God, Son = God, Holy Spirit = God
Mr. Jones' son is also Jones. The spirit inside Mr. Jones and inside son Jones is also Jones.

Author and Creator cannot lie - Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18

You LIE!!, ---David8318
---aservant on 11/19/16


//YHWH does not occur... in the New Testament..//- strongaxe.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The use of YHWH in the NT cannot be proven either way. There are no original Greek texts available.

What we do have though are fragments of the Septuagint (LXX), which date to Jesus' time.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Volume2, page512) says, "The oldest LXX MSS (fragments) now available to us have the tetragrammaton written in Heb[rew] characters [YHWH] in the G[ree]k text".

So despite strongaxe rant about YHWH not being in the NT (which he cannot prove), YHWH was used in the Greek text of the LXX. This proves YHWH was being used by Greek writers of Jesus' day.
---David8318 on 11/19/16


David8318:

You wrote: This is how trinitarians deceitfully operate by twisting and changing scripture to suit their false dogma. Jesus is not Jehovah [Yahweh, YHWH].

YHWH does not occur ANYWHERE in the New Testament at all, yet Jehovah's Witnesses "deceitfully insert it all over the place, changing scripture to suit their false dogma".

The Jews considered the tetragrammaton was too holy to pronounce, so they used the word Adonai (my Lord) instead. The Greek Kyrios (Lord) is the equivalent.
---StrongAxe on 11/18/16


MarkEaton has no love of the Bible if he is prepared to twist scriptures such as Phil.2:10,11. He obviously loves the money his trinity church pays him more than the scriptures if he is prepared to lie for his false dogma.

//But as we see in John 1, Jesus is more than just the Incarnate Son//- MarkEaton.

More pagan trinitarian propaganda. John 1:18 states, 'No one has ever seen God...'.

Awkward for trinitarian MarkEaton who believes Jesus is Jehovah God.

Truth is, Jesus is not God. John 1:34 tells us, 'And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God'.

Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Trinitarian dogma makes John's gospel and the the Bible meaningless.
---David8318 on 11/18/16


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This is how trinitarians deceitfully operate
---David8318 on 11/17/16

Did you tell us what YOU believe?

Of course not. You are either chicken or ashamed of your belief.

I know what Phil 2:11 says and what words its uses.

Perhaps we can agree that according to YOUR Watchtower literature that kyrios was used as a replacement in the NT for the Tetragrammaton? See Joel 2:32 and Romans 10:13.

And speaking of Revelation, what about the Almighty as in Almighty God in this verse:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/18/16


Scott, do you even know what is meant by "Filioquism" is?

What do you think it means?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/18/16


//This is my belief//- MarkEaton.

Notice Mark quotes Phil.2:11 and replaces the Greek word 'kyrios' [Lord} with the Hebrew tetragrammaton "YHWH". Mark does this in an effort to falsely claim that "Jesus is YHWH [Yahweh or Jehovah]".

No where in Philippians 2:10,11 does the Hebrew name for God [YHWH] appear.

This is how trinitarians deceitfully operate by twisting and changing scripture to suit their false dogma. Jesus is not Jehovah [Yahweh, YHWH].

Phil.2:11 contains the Greek word 'kyrios' [Lord]. "Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father" (NIV).

Mark- mediate on Rev.22:18,19.
---David8318 on 11/17/16


\\Maybe, Scott, you mean to say, if someone thinks filioquism is false, then how can they say the Trinity is true?\\

We Orthodox have been doing both for 2000 years.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/16


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David8318 is a Jehovah's Witness. That should give you some background.
---StrongAxe on 11/17/16

Yes, I know.

Hence my post that Jesus is Yahweh of the OT, the Creator God, God Almighty, Lord of All.

No JW is likely to allow that statement to go by.

But as we see in John 1, Jesus is more than just the Incarnate Son. The Gospel of John (written last by John) is Johns most theological work, and his crowning jewel is the prolog to his gospel. John wants us all to know who Jesus has been through the ages, and put it at the start of his book. John says, before you read anything else, you need to absorb this.

To remove its importance as JWs do, is to remove the witness of John.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/17/16


"If someone denies the trinity then they are not Christians.
If someone denies the Deity and personhood of the Holy Spirit then they are not Christians...---john9346 on 11/13/16"
That's presumptuous of you John. However seeing that neither Jesus nor his follower referred to themselves as "christians", I'll take no offense. Concerning trinity "Even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth. [I know] there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord, Jesus, [the] Christ, [the Son of God, the fullness of Father's Spirit, bodily] by whom are all things, and we by him. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all."
---Josef on 11/17/16


This doesn't necessarily mean "one and the same" (as some believe). ---StrongAxe on 11/17/16

Being "as one" does not mean being an exact duplicate. Fingers are "as one". There are some differences, but they are essentially the same in function, activity, and objective. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are essentially the same in SPIRITUAL function, activity, and objective. And THEY want to infuse certain humans into THEIR function, activity, and objective. This is why the called, elect, chosen, sanctified, and reserved are given the Holy Spirit to inhabit our flesh.
---aservant on 11/17/16


aservant wrote: Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

This doesn't necessarily mean "one and the same" (as some believe). Otherwise, John 17:21 doesn't make sense:
That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I am not you, yet Jesus wants us to be "one".


Mark_Eaton wrote: Please tell us David, what is essential to be a Christian?

You have been very quick to tell us all that the Trinity is false, but you have never told us what YOU believe.


David8318 is a Jehovah's Witness. That should give you some background.
---StrongAxe on 11/17/16


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Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 . . . three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Picture 3 fingers of your hand. They can operate individually, 2 together as one, or 3 together as one. Your spirit decides if 1 and 3 are used together, or if 1, 2, and 3 are used together. Your fingers are subject to a controller, i.e., your spirit. The #2 finger can do nothing if not activated by the controller.

Same with Jesus. What He knows or what He does is subject to a Controller, i.e., His Father.
---aservant on 11/16/16


The word "bible" in itself is not essential to be a Christian.
---David8318 on 11/16/16

Please tell us David, what is essential to be a Christian?

You have been very quick to tell us all that the Trinity is false, but you have never told us what YOU believe.

According to you, what must a person believe to be be a Christian or to be saved?

This is my belief:

Phil 2:10-11 "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow,...and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, to the glory of God the Father"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/16/16


//Neither is the word bible// john9346.

I never said the word "bible" was in the Bible.

The word "bible" in itself is not essential to be a Christian. I personally prefer to use the word "scripture" with reference to the Bible.

The difference of course being that we all choose to use whatever we wish to describe something we can physically see, pick up, hold, open and read.

The trinity on the otherhand is nothing like that. The word trinity is a man-made word used to describe a man-made concept and false doctrine that is not found anywhere in the holy scriptures (otherwise known as the 'Bible' john).
---David8318 on 11/16/16


david8318 states, "Given that the holy spirit wasn't deified by Christendom until well into the 4th Century, john must believe the early church was not Christian."

Acts 5:3-4, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Peter 1:2, Titus 3:4-6, etc.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


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David8318:

"Given that the word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible,"

Neither is the word bible, but I see you usuing it.

"neither did the word "trinity" pass Jesus' lips in any form whatsoever,"

Matt 28:19, Jn 14:16-17.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


//Genesis off the bat shows the Trinity moving from Singular to Plural [Genesis 1:26-27]... Then God said, Let US make mankind in OUR image// Nicole Lacey.

This Trinitarian understanding of Gen.1:26 is polytheism.

'Elohim' means not "persons", but "gods". So those who argue that this word implies a Trinity make themselves polytheists, worshipers of more than one God. Why? Because it would mean that there were three "gods" in the Trinity.

When Gen.1:26 states 'let us make man in our image', trinitarians believe as confirmed by Nicole that God is speaking to other "Gods".

Polytheism is a hallmark of pagan false religions of which the trinity is but one of them.
---David8318 on 11/16/16


how can any of you who say Filioquism is not true also say the Trinity is true?
---Scott_R._Harrington on 11/11/16

John 15 & 16 are the best passages to see the workings of the Trinity.

Jesus says that He will send the Spirit of Truth FROM the Father, and that the Spirit of Truth will say what He hears (from the Father), will glorify Jesus, will take from Jesus what is His, and will disclose truth to us.

Therefore, what is the Fathers is the Sons, and what is the Sons is also the Spirits.

They are all equal, with the Spirit proceeding from the Father and glorifying both Father and Son.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/15/16


//If someone denies the trinity then they are not Christians// jerry9346.

Given that the word "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible, neither did the word "trinity" pass Jesus' lips in any form whatsoever, john9346 statement is based not on scripture but on an emotional attachment to a false doctrine.

John9346 laughably states, //If someone denies the Deity and personhood of the Holy Spirit then they are not Christians//. Given that the holy spirit wasn't deified by Christendom until well into the 4th Century, john must believe the early church was not Christian.

Did these "church fathers" get it wrong before or after they deified the holy spirit at the Council of Constantinople in 381AD?
---David8318 on 11/15/16


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Is the Trinity real?

YES!


---Jerry6593 on 11/14/16


Maybe, Scott, you mean to say, if someone thinks filioquism is false, then how can they say the Trinity is true?

Possibly . . . if the Roman Catholic Church is known for teaching filioquism, ones might want to distance themselves from Roman Catholicism by denying filioquism. Though I don't go with Roman Catholicism, I do find that there are correct teachings in it, and I see that certain people will trash even Biblical ideas since they are similar to or the same as certain Roman Catholic ideas.

For example > ones say < Martin Luther even was going to reject the epistle of James . . . because of how he found that chapter two supports what he understood to be Roman Catholic teaching about works.
---Bill on 11/14/16


samuelBB7 said, "I think some minor points are open to disagree with each other and still be Christians."

If someone denies the trinity then they are not Christians...

If someone denies the Deity of Christ then they are not Christians...

If someone denies the Deity and personhood of the Holy Spirit then they are not Christians...
---john9346 on 11/13/16


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