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Is TULIP Scriptural

When the "Scriptures." are exegete,

Are the 5-points of "Calvinism." AKA (TULIP) Scripture??

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 ---john9346 on 12/4/16
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John again you evade the questions and truths and issues others here have asked you.

BUT let me say this, I posted Romans 11:2, CLEARLY QUALIFYING WHAT AND WHO WAS FOREKNOWN, FOREKNEW, and that exclusively AGAIN says Israel. The EXACT same word used in Romans 8:29. LOST Israel for that matter. Go figure. So argue all you want showing how totally blind you have CHOSEN to be, believing what you were told, with all your memorized comebacks to those who patiently have shown you TRUTH. It's your soul John, and YOU will be without excuse when you face the Judgement seat in not sharing the LOVE OF GOD to ALL lost sinners. I will be one who testifies AGAINST YOU.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16


Jerry:

First, you never answered my questions to you.

"you imply that God instituted sin, infected this planet with it,"

Who decides what is sin God or man??

"If God plans both good and bad, He makes the overwhelming majority bad?"

And you know this how??

"13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Isa 40:13-14...
---john9346 on 12/12/16


Kathr states, "Being dead in sin ..the word despad here, is not dead brain cells, dead in the grave dead, dead conscience."

Kathr said, "I did answer your Question on "foreknew". I also backed it up with scripture."

No ma'am, you didn't answer this question. The Greek Word, "Proginosko." Foreknew is a verb meaning God's Action his participation in predestinating the Elect. This is an Intimate Knowing...

Rom 8:29 speaks of all.

What you are failing to understand is Paul is taking language that was "Exclusive." to Israel and applying it to every Ethnicity of People where the elect is to be saved.
---john9346 on 12/12/16


Kathr states, "The TULIP is not taught anywhere in scripture or anything resembling the foundation of the prophets and apostles.

Again, Listen carefully pay close attention:

Jn 6:37-45, 64-65, 10:11-16, 26-29, 17:1-9, Rom 3:10-19, 8:29-39, Rom9:9-23, Eph 1:4-11, etc.
---john9346 on 12/12/16


Kath, still arguing against God.:

---Luke on 12/10/16

OR possibly Luke, you were saying John is God???? I see no other argument here, it's either with the doctrine of Calvinism, or John and your doctrine of Calvinism. So is Calvinism against God, making Calvinism A GOD, or are you saying John is God.

So again BEFORE you falsely accuse others, please be specific as to EXACTLY WHAT your reference is to.

I see no other subject discussed here on this thread. Or perhaps Luke, did you loose your way and you meant to post that on another thread? Your WORD games are known all too well MARKV. You can change your name all you want. But you will never change your character.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16




Kath, still arguing against God.:

---Luke on 12/10/16

Luke, YOU said those words. If one argues against Calvinism you say they are arguing against God??

And John, the answer to your question above is, ....the 5 are not scripture.

The TULIP is a THEORY on salvation correct? ANOTHER KIND OF SALVATION, not taught in scripture. The one taught in scripture USING EXEGETE FROM THE SPIRITUAL , (not man made church fathers EXEGETE, ) would have no problem using the EXEGETE that Salvation is of the Jews religion, and would use Hebrews 3-4 as an EXEGETE to lay the foundation of salvation. When John or anyone tries to tie your hands saying you cannot use scripture as an EXEGETE, something is seriously wrong. RUN.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16


John , Gods word EXPOSES you.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16


Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


ALL MEN EVERYWHERE... MEANS EXACTLY THAT.

Also,people the verse MarkV uses...the sufficiency coming form God, and not ourselves IS NOT TALKING ABOUT SALVATION, but ministry, and the use of our spiritual,GIFTS given to us AFTER we are saved.

The way they EXERGETE is very deceiving if you don't know your Bible. Frirst, KNOW what Paul or Peter are talking about. Second, WHO they are talking to, Third what the subject matter is. THEN ask for at least 2-3 scriptures to BACK UP what they are saying. This is correct EXERGETE.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16


john: "Also, you have yet to answer my priorquestions [sic] toyou [sic]."

I don't remember any questions. Perhaps you could restate them rather than trying to excuse your non-responsiveness by insisting that I dig for them.



---Jerry6593 on 12/12/16


2Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: for....

You see, this verse finishes what Paul was saying in 2 Corinthians 3:1-5

SO what MarkV or Luke did was ABUSE EXERGETEING by actually NOT EXERGETEING that is, CORRECTLY interpret that verse in 2 Corinthians 3. THIS is where you need to take everything they say and look it up yourself to see if what they are saying is the TRUTH of the SUBJECT matter,( to EXERGETE) like all good BEREANS do.

MarkV is not that able MINISTER of the NEW TESTAMENT as Paul showed he was.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/16




Samuel, the dead cannot chose anything, they are dead to the things of God. They can hear the word and never believe. God has to grant them the ability to believe. It is not calvinism who said this but the word of God said it.
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, our sufficiency is from God" 2 Corinthians 3:5.
Kath, you said,
" to say anyone who doesn't believe in the Calvin doctrine is arguing against God is Well, presumptuous and arrogant for you to make that statement...as if Calvinism and God are one in the same."
I do not know where you found those words, I never said them. You always make something up against everyone. You have not changed.
---Luke on 12/11/16


samuel states, "To convict means to show they are lost. Now a person who is convicted by the Holy Spirit has been awakened from being dead. They know they are sinners. But they must choose. To believe in GOD or reject him. That is how the dead can choose. Because GOD shows them wakes them up and then lets them choose."

Sir, I pointed out twice this question that you now just answered and thanks for answering the question on conviction. So if the sinner is awaken is he still dead? If the sinner can "Choose God." is he still dead or alive??
when you respond remember Paul's Words Eph 2:5-6.
---john9346 on 12/11/16


Samuel states, "True John not everyone is saved. Not everyone is his sheep. But GOD is love. In John 3:16 he loved the world. Which means everyone.

Samuel, So, are you saying that everyone is saved because of Jn 3:16??
---john9346 on 12/11/16


Jerry,

Sir, not sure how the verses you quoted how they disprove the TULIP??

Also, you have yet to answer my priorquestions toyou.

If you will address the questions I previously asked you then your questions will be answered its very simple...
---john9346 on 12/11/16


Kathr states, "Actually John just said it all right here, the TULIP has NOTHING to do with salvation."

Ma'am, pay attention, my response to you was very clear you are wondering off the topic...

My responses to you will be based only on the current topic if you want to dialog further on Jews only for salvation please create another blog.

I'd appreciate you remaining on the topic so others here can be inform and learn.

Thank you,


John
---john9346 on 12/11/16


Just as the Promise of the Land was told to Abraham, the promise of salvation to ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH was also told to Abraham. The Promise of salvation is right there and promised to ALL Who just cross over that Jordan, allowing Joshua ( Jesus ) to go before you, following HIM right into the Promise land. Jesus IS OUR promise land. Ephesians 3:14-21. HE is that height, length, depth, width, just as the physical land God showed Abraham, to see the height length depth width.

Only the Lord can show you that....and the Jordan is that crossing from death to life, it happens when we identify with Jesus in death and resurrection life.

Don't be cowards people...because it is AWESOME here. Wouldn't go back for anything.
---kathr4453 on 12/11/16


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John & Luke
I have read through the Tulip teachings and they have provided me with a better understanding of Calvinism, but I am still left with these questions,

What sign is given to the chosen, so they know they have been chosen?
Why would someone become a follower of Jesus Christ, if God has already made his choice, as to who he will save?

It's like me telling you I have only two tickets for the super bowl, and I am going to give them to someone who belongs to my club. If you join my club, you have a chance to get a ticket, but let it be known, I made the decision before the founding of the club.
Why would anyone want to join your club?
---David on 12/11/16


We see in Hebrews that everything in the Tabernacle pointed to Jesus Christ, and a pattern after the things in heaven. Hebrews 3-4 is ALSO a pattern after salvation, and clearly says so. They were preached the Gospel as we are. Joshua Parallels Ephesians. And there is not one verse that even remotely suggests those who who entered the Promise land were the elect, while their fathers, grandfathers were not. It clearly says to THEM were the promises made, but they did not enter because they lacked faith to do so. Not because God didn't give then faith to do so. The land was right there for them to see. They Saw it. But they were COWARDS to take why God had already given them.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


When you tell me that I am wrong in my understanding of a verse. You need to say why. Not just say I am wrong.

Nkjv John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

To convict means to show they are lost. Now a person who is convicted by the Holy Spirit has been awakened from being dead. They know they are sinners. But they must choose. To believe in GOD or reject him. That is how the dead can choose. Because GOD shows them wakes them up and then lets them choose.

Why because he loves all humans.

Total Depravity has some true points. But that it requires that conviction saves is false. The Holy Spirit will convict everyone. But not all will be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/10/16


Luke, yes the WORD that comes in the Power of the Holy Spirit is what one puts their faith in that saves. But it has to be TRUTH. So let's say the doctrine of Calvinism, not found in scripture comes to you Luke, and you put your faith in that doctrine, just as Tom Cruise has in Scientology, ...you might THINK you are saved, or special , but not according to SCRIPTURE.

Salvation is of the Jews Religion which John clearly stated the TULIP has nothing to do with. And I couldn't agree more. That's why the TULIP cannot save anyone. So why one earth beat people over the head with it?
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


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I see MarkV is back....hi MarkV. Nope, and to say anyone who doesn't believe in the Calvin doctrine is arguing against God is Well, presumptuous and arrogant for you to make that statement...as if Calvinism and God are one in the same.

You see MarkV, it's comments like that that are so OFF PUTTING and so unnecessary. Arguing against God is actually stating that Jesus lied when He said YOU KNOW NOT WHAT YOU WORSHIP, WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP, FOR SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS.

I'll take Jesus words over your presumptuous arrogance anyway of the week.

The TULIP is not taught anywhere in scripture or anything resembling the foundation of the prophets and apostles. It has to be based on BOTH MarkV.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


Kath, still arguing against God.:

You say" one has to believe in their heart God raised Jesus from the dead. Can a SINNER at least be capable of doing that? "
A sinner cannot believe without God giving him the ability. The Word has to come with power in order for a sinner to believe and have faith.
"For our Gospel did not come to you in Word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance" 1 Thess. 1:5. And also we are told:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of your own doing, it is a gift of God- not because of works, lest any man should boast" Eph. 2:8,9. And Hebrews 12:2. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith.
---Luke on 12/10/16


Kathr states, "
YOU JOHN do not understand the Gospel of Salvation according to scripture teaching scripture.....the salvation that is OF the Jews religion."

First, this has nothing to do with the Blog Question.

---john9346 on 12/9/16

Actually John just said it all right here, the TULIP has NOTHING to do with salvation.

Ok if that's the case what is all this about, God choosing who to save and who to send to hell based on some Gentile religion? THAT is what salvation is about John, AND to say YOUR way of salvation has NOTHING to do with what Jesus WHO IS GOD said salvation is based on...... WOW , THAT is frightening.

But thanks for clarifying your position.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


Believes in ones heart

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all thing's and desperately wicked, who can Know it.

If the condition of man heart is deceitful , Then how can it be trusted when one say's - I believe ? Unless God has interceded and saved that person and change them ?
---RichardC on 12/10/16


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John, there is none righteous apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ. BUT where does unrighteousness say one is totally void of a conscience of knowing right from wrong? It doesn't . When Sdam ate the fruit, he then knew GOOD AND EVIL. IT DOESNT SAY AND NOW MAN ONLY KNOWS EVIL.

See John, you take a verse and you put your own spin and definition to it.

Being dead in sin ..the word despad here, is not dead brain cells, dead in the grave dead, dead conscience.

We're not animals, or sociopaths. Stop saying all men are sociopaths. We shudder at people who commit horrible crimes and have no conscience.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


I did answer your Question on "foreknew". I also backed it up with scripture.

Did you miss that post, or just choose to brush it aside because you didn't understand it? The ONLY people God FOREKNEW was Israel. Amos 3:1-2. God is saying in Romans 8:29 that Jews as well, those He FOREKNEW , that they who believe will ALSO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE. See the word ALSO. That clarified the "foreknew" . And we do see in Ephesians God reiterates that truth again saying BOTH JEW AND GENTILE are one New man...
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


John, It is quite ODD that EVERYTHING others say is WRONG. When everyone is batting ZERO but you, that in itself is a red flag. The red flag is, those who are brainwashed actually don't listen and are unable to even process independent thinking. Since their own independent thinking has been taken away, certainly no one else should be able to see things differently than what one is taught to memorize.

Calvinism works great for the variances of Autistic people, BUT for others who are encouraged to REASON WITH GOD, those truths are revealed to us through our personal relationship with the Lord, not passed down from church fathers who may have gotten it wrong from the get go. We are ever learning. Were they?
---kathr4453 on 12/10/16


John: Conversing with you is most tedious. Consider:

1) Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was LOST.

2) Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat:

3) Most people are in the LOST camp.

4) Jesus came to save the LOST.

5) If the Lost were predestined to be lost, then how can Jesus save them?

6) If YOU are (or were) never LOST, then according to Scripture, you can't be saved.

7) The GOOD NEWS is that ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23) and were thus once lost, so ALL can be saved IF THEY SO CHOOSE.



---Jerry6593 on 12/10/16


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Kathr states, "No where is your total depravity taught in scripture....NO WHERE."

But Paul under the guidance of the Holy Spirit corrects you Paul writes these words, "10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom3:10-12.

Also see Eph 2:1-9.
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Kathr states, "
YOU JOHN do not understand the Gospel of Salvation according to scripture teaching scripture.....the salvation that is OF the Jews religion."

First, this has nothing to do with the Blog Question.

I have all ready responded to this point again Jn 17:1-9, Jn 6:37-39. Everybody all doesn't just refer to the Jews listen to the contest.

You never answered my question is the word, "Foreknew." is it a verb or an adjative?
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Samuel:

"True John not everyone is saved. Not everyone is his sheep. But GOD is love. In John 3:16 he loved the world. Which means everyone.

So, are you saying that everyone is saved because of Jn 3:16??

Are you aware that 2 Pet 3:9 is written to the "Elect Believers?"

"Tulip teaches GOD hates the majority of people and hates them so much he chooses to not save them. But the Bible says GOD is love."

Samuel, Doesn't Scripture state that God is also holy, righteous, and just??

I would ask you sir State the Scripture where it says that God is obligated to save sinners??

Remember, sinners hate God they want nothing to do with him see, Rom 8:78
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Samuel:

In regards to Jn 16:8 that you referenced earlier you never answered my question Whhen the Holy Spirit convicts isn't this God granting life to a Dead Sinner??

"For Tulip to be true. These verse must be false."

Samuel, none of those verses disproves the TULIP.

Samuel, if someone is dead can they make choices??

Samuel, if someone makes choices are they dead??

What did Paul state about sinners in Eph 2:1 and vs 5.
---john9346 on 12/9/16


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John, "you say" ..(.not God ) that a sinner cannot repent. BUT is salvation based on repentance OR simply BELIEVING?

See John, you're pulling what's called "double talk" here. Have you read Romans 10:9-10 lately? Or where in Romans 4 does it say Abraham had to repent of sin? Where does it say one has to be able to repent of their sin? And that man is incapable? ..all I see is one has to believe in their heart God raised Jesus from the dead. Can a SINNER at least be capable of doing that?

You see John, Calvinists have convoluted the Gospel. Also John THE LAW was a schoolmaster pointing out WHAT SIN IS. So "today" John no one is without excuse of KNOWING what sin is either.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


True John not everyone is saved. Not everyone is his sheep. But GOD is love. In John 3:16 he loved the world. Which means everyone.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Tulip teaches GOD hates the majority of people and hates them so much he chooses to not save them. But the Bible says GOD is love.

1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love.
Nkjv John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
For Tulip to be true. These verse must be false.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/9/16


John, also when reading Romans, beginning with the first chapter, it moves with time, before the law, during the law, after the Law, and those promises made while still under the law.

Romans 1-2 deal with the time in history before the law, before the flood. That is obvious. God gave them up, and they all but 8 perished in the flood. THEY change the Glory of God to glorifying man. THEY seared their OWN conscience. They were not under the law of Moses, but under the law of MORAL CONSCIENCES who also LIVED BY FAITH. And will be held just as accountable as one under the law. No where is your total depravity taught in scripture....NO WHERE. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU THINK you see, but it ain't there John.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


John those aren't answers, they're comments. HE came unto His Own, meaning the Jews, Gods Chosen people, Jesus brethren In the flesh, and HIS OWN received Him Not. Only a handful in Israel ( HIS ALREADY CHOSEN PEOPLE) were faithful we see became HIS apostles, were also told at that time...ONLY GO TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

John did you know to understand the Gospel all one needs is the Holy Spirit. What I LOVE about the Lord is He has made understanding the Gospel SO SIMPLE...SO SIMPLE IN FACT, no one needs John the Calvinist to explain it to them.

YOU John may understand Calvinism, but YOU JOHN do not understand the Gospel of Salvation according to scripture teaching scripture.....the salvation that is OF the Jews religion.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


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Kathr states, "The problem with John's answer is he is saying anyone who has a conscience and is convicted of a sin, say like stealing from their grandmother and KNOWING it is wrong, and has that moment of regret being convicted AUTOMATICALLY proves they are the elect?"

First, pay attention it was a question to Samuel.

Next, Paul in Rom 1:18-32 addresses your objection.

If you note what Paule states, "Sinners suppress the truth." so a sinner may know right from wrong, but sinners cant of themselves repent the real question is will sinners repent?? This is why Paule goes on to state the nature and behavior of sinners in Rom 3:10-12.
---john9346 on 12/9/16


samuel states, "Second Jesus died for everyone. GOD loves everyone."

Hear the words of the Lord Jesus:

"11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jn 10:11, 14, and 15.

Everyone are not the sheep...
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Kathr states, "VERSES debunking the TULIP."

Ma'am, you have to read Rom 3:10-19before you get to Rom 4:5 and Rom 5:6...

Remember, "Context, context,context."
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Kathr states, "God did not just walla save Cornelius without him FIRST HEARING THE GOSPEL."

Ma'am, Cornelius hearing the "Gospel."was God action/willingness in saving Cornelius...

Do you remember what I said to you last time we discussed this that you do not understand Calvinism...

The preaching of the gospel is God's Effectual Calling to the "Blessed Elect." when the sheep hear the Shepherd's Call they will come...

Jn 10:11-16.
---john9346 on 12/9/16


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Jerry:

First, you never answered my questions to you.

"you imply that God instituted sin, infected this planet with it,"

Who decides what is sin God or man??

"If God plans both good and bad, He makes the overwhelming majority bad?"

And you know this how??

"13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Isa 40:13-14...
---john9346 on 12/9/16


Romans 4:5 is the greatest verse in the Bible to show those who you are witnessing to, who say" I am so horrible, I've done things so horrible God could never forgive me or save me". Have you ever witnessed to someone who thought that? I have. For starters, that comment alone PROVES sinners KNOW they are sinners. BUT when you show them this one most precious verse, WOW, the Word of God is living and
Powerful and stronger than a two edge sword. Even the worse of sinners the most UNGODLY of sinners by faith can be Justified by the Blood of Jesus ...a fount that never runs dry who BELIEVE IT IS God who Justifies SINNERS by faith.

And again FAITH is NOT works.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


VERSES debunking the TULIP

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Don't believe the TULIP for a second. It is simply a THEORY, a PHILOSOPHY of some who would so disect beyone recognition the Gospel.

Too many scriptures debunk Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


Amos 3:1-2

3 Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Rom 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew .STRONGS G4267 .....SAME AS Romans 8:29.....Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


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samuel:

"But the Holy Spirit can and will convict them of sin." Samuel //

Whhen the Holy Spirit convicts isn't this God granting life to a Dead Sinner?? // John's answer


The problem with John's answer is he is saying anyone who has a conscience and is convicted of a sin, say like stealing from their grandmother and KNOWING it is wrong, and has that moment of regret being convicted AUTOMATICALLY proves they are the elect? Seriously? Many unsaved people know right from wrong and are convicted in their CONSCIENCE of sin. Our CONSCIENCE DID NOT DIE when man fell.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/16


samuel:

"But the Holy Spirit can and will convict them of sin."

Whhen the Holy Spirit convicts isn't this God granting life to a Dead Sinner??

"Those who live in hate will choose to die in sin."

Sir, if they are dead then how can they choose either hate or sin. if someone is dead they can not make "Choices." they cant tell you, "Samule go in the kitchen and get me a pizza."
---john9346 on 12/8/16


Samuel states, "If no one has free will then they cannot be guilty of sin."

Error, mankind does have freewill, but mankind as sinners will always choose/decide sin,unless, God chooses to grant mercy. You see according to "Scripture.", mankind is "Dead." in sin meaning every part of man sins, every decision, thought, feeling, desire, word, and action is completely dominated and controled by "Sin."...
---john9346 on 12/8/16


Well, yes John a lot did, HOWEVER the Gospel,to the Gentiles did not begin until Paul, or we can say, Peter brought to Cornelius, much after Jesus returned to heaven. And wow, look at all the fuss when the Jews saw with Cornelius how Even Gentiles as the Jews also received the Holy Spirit. And who was it that brought the Gospel to Corneluis? So John 17 has in the beginning Jesus Apostles who then were those who went to others...re Cornelius....verse 20. And Cornelius believed in Jesus through Peters word......because God sent Peter to Corneluis...God did not just walla save Cornelius without him FIRST HEARING THE GOSPEL. Cornelius believed through PETERS ( Their re Apostles) WORD.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/16


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john: Sir, you imply that God instituted sin, infected this planet with it, and will ultimately dismiss it as unimportant. You not only contradict the Bible, but make God to seem a lunatic monster. Here's how:

If God plans both good and bad, He makes the overwhelming majority bad. The Bible says that the bad will be destroyed in the lake of fire (or eternal torture in hell, if that's your belief). We must then conclude that God is a sadistic monster to create most of us (who never had a chance) for the sole purpose of torture. Would YOU torture your children?



---Jerry6593 on 12/9/16


kathr said, "Jesus did come into the WORLD, as your verse states, but scripture also states He came unto HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not. Who are the HIS OWN HERE JOHN? THe ELECT or ISRAEL? Careful how you answer that. We are discussing jn 17 this is not referencing "Israel." alone.

In Jn 1 yes his own was the Jews but you have to make a big leap from chapter 1 to chapter 17 a lot took place between those chapters...

---john9346 on 12/6/16




---john9346 on 12/8/16


kathr states, "John, I do know the difference, and "foreknew" is not the same as foreordained or is ordained the same as foreordained.?

Tell us, in Rom 8:29 the word, "Foreknew." in Greek what is the word Paul uses?

Also, tell us is this a verb or adjactive??
---john9346 on 12/8/16


Kathr states, "no scripture teaches limited atonement except the OT sacrifice that did not COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL."

Well its obvious you have not read the NT

See, Matt 1:21, Jn 10:11-16 and 26-29.
---john9346 on 12/8/16


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Kathr,

Ma'am, the Lord Jesus Christ is "God.",therefore, he "Knew." meaning he arranged it to be so.

Next, The usage of the word "Beginning." in Greek in Jn 6:64 denotes time which means "Since time was." The action Jesus is telling his disciple is pointing to himself not them.

Jesus is stating in Jn 6:64 that since he has no "Beginning and end." he appointed those who would leave and those who would stay.

The question in this verse is who is doing the action Jesus or his disciple?

In addition, he wasn't just talking about Judas...
---john9346 on 12/8/16


John the ONLY limited atonement in scripture was the blood of bulls and goats that only COVERED.....limited the atonement. It had to be done year after year, and it was FOR ALL OF ISRAEL, NOT JUST A SELECT FEW. SO your pattern of limited is not in Scripture. You see, scripture teaches scripture, and no scripture teaches limited atonement except the OT sacrifice that did not COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Remember Salvation is OF the Jews..meaning Jews Religion.....not Calvin's religion.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/16


Not sure what your point was John, are you saying Judas is in heaven? Ok so you say ALL, including Judas....so when someone who says they are the elect commit a horrible sin, even openly deny Christ, they can claim that too is God's will?

But you still refuse to answer my question....He came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.

WHO are the HIS OWN in this verse John?

And there are many "beginnings" in scripture, what Jesus knew from the beginning just may have been from the beginning of His Ministry. Not the beginning of the heavens and earth, or even before the foundation of the world. Did Jesus KNOW from the beginning of His earthly birth?
---kathr4453 on 12/8/16


samuel:

"Total Depravity. Men have no free will and cannot choose anything except to be lost."

Correction, man has freewill, but his freewill will always choose sin.

"Unconditional Election. GOD chooses who to be saved loving them and hating all others."

Wrong, God is love, remember the opposite of love is not hate. God is not obligated to save anyone he owes us nothing.

"Limited atonement. Jesus died only for the few he will save."

Yes and amen...
---john9346 on 12/8/16


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samuel:

"Irresistible Grace. GOD forces some people against their will to be saved."

Wrong, Samuel, mankind is dead mankind are sinners dead in sin. Dead people don't and cant choose if they can then they wouldn't be dead right??

"Persistence of the Saints. One GOD choose to save you. You cannot be lost."

You mean "Perseverance of the Saints."

And you are correct.
---john9346 on 12/8/16


Kathr states, "speaking of John 6, again Jesus is talking to the Jews. He did know who would betray Him,"

False, Note the words of the Lord Jesus,"37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jn 6:37

Note, "All."

"39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Jn 6:39

Note, All


---john9346 on 12/8/16


Kathr states, "And the word beginning in the verses does not clarify the beginning of the world."

Another, contradiction:

"But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.""As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore."

Jn 6:64-66.
---john9346 on 12/8/16


John, I do know the difference, and "foreknew" is not the same as foreordained or is ordained the same as foreordained. Yet some use the verse ordained to life as saying FOREordained to life. Yet ordained does not mean foreknew either.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/16


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Well since no one argued with my definitions. Then I guess everyone agrees with them.

True those dead in sin will not decide for themselves. But the Holy Spirit can and will convict them of sin. The Holy Spirit will convict the whole world of sin. That is part of his job.

Second Jesus died for everyone. GOD loves everyone., Those who live in hate will choose to die in sin.

If no one has free will then they cannot be guilty of sin. Since to commit sin you have to decide to sin. But if you cannot decide to sin someone else is making you do it.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/8/16


Kathr states, "John, if your belief in the TULIP stands, Romans 8:29 would read, " those whom He FORORDAINED. It doesn't."

Well, if you understand the word usage "Foreknew." then you would not be making this statement.
---john9346 on 12/8/16


Doesn't (Romans 8:23) show there is a time of waiting before we are adopted into the family of God?"
No.---john9346


(Romans 8:23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
---David on 12/8/16


John, if your belief in the TULIP stands, Romans 8:29 would read, " those whom He FORORDAINED. It doesn't. God does know everything, no one questions that. God knows the beginning from the end. Knowing beginning from the end is not the same as knowing it because you planned every detail of every person's life beginning to end. You are saying God PLANNED and executed every rapist in the world. This is where those who KNOW the Lord, Jeremiah 29:4 KNOW that is a lie. So you say because darkness is the absence of light somehow qualifies that evil because there is no light in it? YET how do you explain that not ALL unsaved people rape? And how do you explain those who say they are the elect saved SIN? That dog still don't hunt John.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/16


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Jerry states, "By reading the Bible. The TULIP-defined version of predestination is contrary to the Biblical concept of freedom of choice in religious matters.

First, could you be more specific about what you meanby "Religious Matters.?

Next sir, the "Scriptures." state that sinners are dead. Dead people can not and do not make choices.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,"

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)"

Eph 2:1, 4-5
---john9346 on 12/7/16


jerry states "TULIP says everything - even sin - is God's fault."

Jerry, tell me, is good the opposite or the absence of evil?

Is darkness the opposite or absence of light?

This is in context of your statement.
---john9346 on 12/7/16


david:

"John
Doesn't (Romans 8:23) show there is a time of waiting before we are adopted into the family of God?"

No.

"
(Romans 8:29) says those God foreknew, he also predestined to conform to the image of Christ. Couldn't those he foreknew, be those who have received Gods gift of the Holy Spirit, those yet to be born, those still in the spiritual womb?"

Yes, but they didn'tPreviously Exist.
---john9346 on 12/7/16


Total Depravity. Men have no free will and cannot choose anything except to be lost.

Unconditional Election. GOD chooses who to be saved loving them and hating all others.

Limited atonement. Jesus died only for the few he will save.

Irresistible Grace. GOD forces some people against their will to be saved.

Persistence of the Saints. One GOD choose to save you. You cannot be lost.

Check this to make sure I am telling the truth. But I cannot support these points.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/7/16


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kathr ask, "Why would Jesus ask such a question to His other 11?"

He explains it to you listen,"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

Jn 6:64
---john9346 on 12/6/16

speaking of John 6, again Jesus is talking to the Jews. He did know who would betray Him, and that was JUDAS. And the word beginning in the verses does not clarify the beginning of the world. If Jesus knew, as the TULIP teaches, then He knew BEFORE THE BEGINNING.

But you never answered my other question. Jesus came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/16


Well, John, I think it depends on how a person understands each of the TULIP things. I consider that not all people have the same understanding. Plus, if people now can misunderstand the Bible, it is possible ones claiming John Calvin might not have correctly understood him ! (c:

Also, how John really lived would be at least part of the real interpretation of what his writings mean. And I did not know John personally so I can know this.
---Bill on 12/7/16


John: "And you are sure of this how??"

By reading the Bible. The TULIP-defined version of predestination is contrary to the Biblical concept of freedom of choice in religious matters. TULIP says everything - even sin - is God's fault. The Bible says sin started in Lucifer's heart.


---Jerry6593 on 12/7/16


John
Doesn't (Romans 8:23) show there is a time of waiting before we are adopted into the family of God?
Now if we must wait to be Adopted, couldn't this time before our spiritual birth, be equated to time spent in a spiritual womb?

(Romans 8:29) says those God foreknew, he also predestined to conform to the image of Christ. Couldn't those he foreknew, be those who have received Gods gift of the Holy Spirit, those yet to be born, those still in the spiritual womb?

When a farmer plants wheat, hasn't the crop he wishes to harvest, been predetermined? A farmer planting wheat isnt expecting a harvest of corn. In the same manner, when God gives us his Holy Spirit, does he expect to harvest weeds (Matthew 13:24)?
---David on 12/7/16


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jerry states, "No!"

And you are sure of this how??
---john9346 on 12/6/16


kathr ask, "Why would Jesus ask such a question to His other 11?"

He explains it to you listen,"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

Jn 6:64
---john9346 on 12/6/16


kathr said, "Jesus did come into the WORLD, as your verse states, but scripture also states He came unto HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not. Who are the HIS OWN HERE JOHN? THe ELECT or ISRAEL? Careful how you answer that. We are discussing jn 17 this is not referencing "Israel." alone.

In Jn 1 yes his own was the Jews but you have to make a big leap from chapter 1 to chapter 17 a lot took place between those chapters...
---john9346 on 12/6/16


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