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Quoting Christian Church Fathers

Does "Scripture." forbid Christians from reading and quoting the Fathers and the councils of the church??

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 ---john9346 on 1/2/17
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Hello readers,

To recap:

1. When the real questions were asked here the response was insult after insult. Note,this is the result when a person is challenged and they do not know of what they speak.

So everyone can get to know the Church Fathers in truth:

Books:

Confessions by Augustine.

Getting to Know the Church Fathers: An Evangelical Introduction [Bryan M. Litfin]

Rediscovering theChurch Fathers: who they were byMichael Haykin.
---john9346 on 1/8/17


Hello readers:

the questions regarding Gal 1:12-18 and 1 Jn 2:20-21 could never be answered in that if they are teaching we don't need anyone to teach us.

1. The Letter of 1 John is John himself teaching/instructing the churchvs 2:20-21 John was reminding of what they had been taught.

2. Gal 1:12-18 was a specific assignment from God Paul no where says that he never needed anyone to teach him or this should be thestandard for every Christian.
---john9346 on 1/8/17


jerry states, "Only the Man Christ Jesus, as:"


Sir, are you not a Sevehthday Adventist??

Tell us, who founded this denomination??

Are you saying the Man Christ Jesus founded your denomination?
---john9346 on 1/8/17


Thank you StrongAxe. Yes there was a typo there. But if one was keeping up with the conversation rather than trying to find a typo to hang someone over, Cluny should have known that. But we all know Cluny is Cluny, and in this area will never change. Also, I know he is getting up there in age and may have a problem with staying focused on conversations without going off on a rabbit trail.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/17


Cluny:

You wrote: kathr, are you so deluded that you actually think that God punishes those you tell Him to do?

From the context, it seems like she probably meant "In order to be partakers", rather than "I order to be partakers". This is much more likely, than believing that she thinks she gives policy to God.
---StrongAxe on 1/7/17




john: "Sir, everybody is following somebody"

Only the Man Christ Jesus, as:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



Men can lie, but God can not.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth.


There are seemingly infinite varieties of error, but only ONE truth. That truth is found consistently ONLY in the WORD of God.



---Jerry6593 on 1/7/17


Here is another Ancient creed that confirms the "Scriptures. written byAthanasius a ChurchFather. I'm parts of it do to its being colossal in explanation.

The word catholic here means universal not the rcc


Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith,Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
---john9346 on 1/7/17


The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
---john9346 on 1/7/17


12. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty,

13. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
---john9346 on 1/7/17


Cluny, I can testify to this that it is TRUE......and you can't? ??

Hebrews 12:6-10

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof ALL ARE PARTAKERS, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/17




Cluny, now to your comment about the word of God ..

Jesus prayed, Sanctify them through thy truth, thy WORD is truth.

You misrepresented both issues. I never make such a claim. I said God speaks to ALL His own through His Word. The Lord deals with each of us individually, and personally.....it's called a personal intimate relationship. I know Orthodox RCC and now see Reformed don't have that.....but it's your own faults. And seeing you don't know or have never experienced Hebrews 12..... It appears more and more it IS your own fault. You see Heb 12 that I posted parallels James 1 and 2 Peter 1. Self mutilation will never accomplish true sanctification.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/17


Paul said, be followers of me the way I am of Christ. So yes, I do follow the same way Paul Followed, and Paul and all the writers of NT and OLD I have mentored me and I follow their teaching. It's not hard to understand with the help of the Holy Spirit. I find the scriptures are SUFFICIENT for all my needs. When I have questions, I just pray and ask the Lord, and He has ALWAYS answeres me. There are so many fringe benefits that come with salvation, that our Reformed, Orthodox and RCC friends here have no Idea.....why? Because they run To man and not God, and then have the audacity to tell you the Lord can't or doesn't teach His own... Let's pray for the misguided here who admit their loss.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/17


What I find strange here about John in particular, or rather the Calvin angle....that their own salvation THEY CLAIM was that the Holy Spirit New Birthed them first SO THAT they could understand scripture that no one else is suppose to understand, because of some depravity. Yet after their supposed new birth, they don't have that same ability. They were given the gift of faith to believe initially, but that gift disappeared when it comes to GROWING. Now just compare...they say man is incapable of understanding scripture. BUT they are also saying after they are saved, they are STILL incapable of understanding and obeying through faith Gods Word. They need human tutors only to keep them grounded in false doctrine...that's all.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/17


\\God scourges EVERY SON, I order to be partakers of His Holiness...??

kathr, are you so deluded that you actually think that God punishes those you tell Him to do?

I didn't say God was flattered, this can't be done. I said that you were flattering yourself, acting as if it were only to YOU the Word of God has come.

Or don't you understand English prose?

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/6/17


jerry said, "
One can quote anyone they like, but in tests of doctrine, only the Holy Scriptures are a valid authority. Others may or may not be correct, but it is still their opinion, and it is false if it conflicts with the Bible. I'll never understand this obsession of following men rather than God."

Sir, everybody is following somebody there is not one doctrine (true or false) that has not been held by somebody else at one time.

There is no such thing as saying the Lord teaches me...
---john9346 on 1/6/17


The following Ancient Prayer doesn't contradict "Scripture.":

"Lord Jesus Christ The Son of God have mercy on me a sinner."
---john9346 on 1/6/17


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Here is how some of the Church Fathers viewed themselves:

"Feignest that thou art ignorant who I am, hear thou plainly, I am a Christian." polycarp

"Yes, I am a Christian." Justin Martyr

I am a Christian, Jerome answered.

"We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians." Ignatius of Antioch

"I am a Christian." Cyprian,

"But with you I am, after all, a Christian." Augustine
---john9346 on 1/6/17


This creed confirms "Scripture."

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and buried,

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead,

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

amen
---john9346 on 1/6/17


Jerry, I totally agree. What I do find interesting with those of the Calvin persuasion , even when I was in a Calvin Church before I knew what Calvinism was, they claim only they were given eyes to see.....but see what??? Who knows, but after they are supposed to have been given these " for your eyes only" to see, their God then left them high and dry to rely on man to teach them after they could see. So I guess that must be LIMITED sanctification..,)

Cluny, God scourges EVERY SON, I order to be partakers of His Holiness, and works In us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Should I be flattered that this is promised to ALL the BOC? Is God flattered that I obey? I would only be devistating if I were left out.
---kathr4453 on 1/6/17


strongaxe you said, "If all doctrines are established by scripture alone, Sola Scriptura is such a doctrine, why would you NEED the approval of any outside authorities."

Sir, Good question, Sola Scriptura is a doctrine that enables us to understand the "Scripture." relative to the author, and the origin just like the Doctrine of thetrinity." which enables us to understand God in his essence and substance.
---john9346 on 1/6/17


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strongaxe,

Sir, When Non-Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox read, study, and quote the church fathers, we do so as a means to confirm "Doctrine." its like the illustration Cluny gave on the other posting about reading the Founding Fathers of America. We read about America Founding Fathers as a means to know and learn where we came from our heritage and Historical Identity.

We do not worship/venerate them because none of the church fathers saw their writings as on the same Equal Footing with "Scripture."
---john9346 on 1/6/17


strongaxe states, "2 Ti 3:17 says THAT man may be perfect. It doesn't say it can do it ALONE."

I agree with you in the since if it is apart from the means meaning the means God has given to us for the "Scriptures." to make us complete. The word perfect in Greek means complete.

you see if you read vs 14-15 Paul had in mind of what you just said, "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
---john9346 on 1/6/17


strongaxe said, "Between "scripture says X" and "it never says X", the burden of proof is on those who claim it does - by showing chapter and verse. It's easier than quoting thousands of verses that don't."

Sir, good point/question you raise remember what I said the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura enables us to understand the author and origin of the "Scripture."

So, think about it, Jesus said he is the way so is he going to say "I am the way." but then say Buddha, Muhammad is the way??
You see, what I am saying is the "Scriptures." reflect the author and source of them...
---john9346 on 1/6/17


//Because the Lord wanted to teach me Himself, of which I see you are so envious of it just oozes out of your pores and mouth. //

Don't flatter and exalt yourself, kathr.

You probably never heard of the Church Fathers until they were mentioned on these blogs.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/6/17


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john9346:

If all doctrines are established by scripture alone, Sola Scriptura is such a doctrine, why would you NEED the approval of any outside authorities (like church fathers)? It should be able to stand on its own, regardless of whether church fathers agreed to it or vehemently opposed it. It should stand on its own regardless of their opinions.

2 Ti 3:17 says THAT man may be perfect. It doesn't say it can do it ALONE (e.g. try reading the bible without drinking for a year, and you are a perfect corpse),

Between "scripture says X" and "it never says X", the burden of proof is on those who claim it does - by showing chapter and verse. It's easier than quoting thousands of verses that don't.
---StrongAxe on 1/6/17


Kathr: Instruction # 4: Do not use all capitals.

One can quote anyone they like, but in tests of doctrine, only the Holy Scriptures are a valid authority. Others may or may not be correct, but it is still their opinion, and it is false if it conflicts with the Bible. I'll never understand this obsession of following men rather than God.



---Jerry6593 on 1/6/17


strongaxe states, "No, it's YOURS. You said that scripture itself is sufficient to establish all doctrine, without the need to refer to any traditions outside of scripture.

Yes, this is the definition of "Sola Scriptura."

strongaxe said, "As such, we don't need to refer to any outside authorities to tell us what scripture REALLY means, according to whatever traditions they happen to follow.

This is separate from "Sola Scriptura." this is a benefit not the origian/source.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


strongaxe:

"Where, exactly does it say that? 2 Timothy 3:16 says it is profitable, but it does not actually say it is sufficient, and definitely does not say it is "sole."

And did you go on to read vs 17??

"As far as self-interpreting and self-authenticating, many believe that, but the scriptures themselves never actually say that either."

And you know this how??
---john9346 on 1/5/17


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Luke,


Strongaxe, it did matter what some of those church fathers believed if it was from Scripture. If it was from their own understandings apart from the word of God then it did not matter what they believed.
I believe this subject is a very simple answer. If what is taught is from the word of God then it is truth. If what is taught not from the Word of God then it is not Truth. Truth is the Word of God. Why? Because Jesus is the Truth, the Word of God. He testifies of the Father and what He wants others to hear. Do you believe in the Word? Do you believe in the Truth? To be a Christian you have to believe in the Word of God Jesus.

---Luke on 12/26/16
---john9346 on 1/5/17


John, When I was saved, probably longer than you are in age, the Lord NEVER drew me to reading your church fathers books. WHY! Because the Lord wanted to teach me Himself, of which I see you are so envious of it just oozes out of your pores and mouth.

You can Kathr said all you want till the cows come home, however, those on line KNOW I won't bow down to your false idols ...including Calvin and your TULIP

IF you were truly Born Again, and the ELECT, you would have NO ISSUE with what I have posted. That's why you are a pudknocker....JUST AN ORDINARY NOBODY HAVING NOTHING OF YOUR OWN TO GIVE OTHERS. Only second hand knowledge not even your own....showing NO evidence you are even saved in the first place. ANYONE CAN READ.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


NOTE EVERYONE...

I REFUSE TO DEBATE WITH JOHN THE CYBER BULLY, WHOS APPROACH AND TACTICS ARE THE MOST OBNOXIOUS HERE TO DATE.

WHEN JOHN CHANGES HIS BEHAVIOR MAYBE WE CAN PROCEED. BUT NOT UNTIL THEN.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


Hello readers,

Note, and remember Kathr never could do the following:


1. Kathr could never tell us, if she reject that the "Shema." should be said twice a day?? She danced around this question unequivocally.

2. Kathr could never tell us if she reject that the Shabbat Candles should be lit 18 minutes before sunset?? She danced around this question as well Unequivocally in responding.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


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Now moving on lets see if she will answer the following questions in context:

1. Kathr still hasn't told us all that when John wrote (1 jn 2:20-21) that he was telling that church that they didn't need their pastor (no one to teach them.) Note context.

2. 3. I am still waiting for Kathr to tell us all in Gal 1:12-17 where is Paul saying that we do not need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today??
---john9346 on 1/5/17


Kathr said, "OK....my free will has chosen not to based on exerts here and there I see and have heard that I've yet to hear any preach our identification with Jesus Christ."

Kathr, thank you for being honest in stating you have never read them. We all here have known that you haven't read the church fathers.

Like I have said to you on other postings this type of behavior discredit your credibility. You have so much to say about something that respectfully, "YOU KNOW nothing ABOUT."

?Ma'am, do you understand this is falsehood which Adonai detests.

You are also intentionally misleading the readers here who do seek to learn and know the truth.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


strongaxe,

I understand your points, but Kathr wants to condemn everyone here for reading, studying, and holding to the traditions of the church fathers, but as a Jew, she has traditions.

You see, the teaching of the sages are of Jewish Culture. In other words,the teaching of the sages doesn't just dominate Religious Jews, but nonreligious Jews.

Kathr knows this is why if you clearly see she will not reject them the reason is because she cant reject them because they are of her culture.

Again, my point to everyone here is it is hypocritical for Kathr to condemn Church Fathers for traditions when the sages have done and Rabbis to this day still do the same thing.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


John, I'm not sure how old you are, how long you've been saved, whether you are all puffed up with head knowledge or if you have actually been "proved" by the Lord, I mean, brought to maturity through trials and testings. The thing is, all that I have said about a personal relationship, showing Ephesians 3:14-21 Phil 3, James 1...you have had nothing to say or show excitement about or acknowledge, but act like a deer caught in headlights.

I hold up the CROSS John, not man. THIS is what ministry God has given to me, that you and your arrogance has trampled. Are you really a knowitall? You REALLY KNOW IT ALL? NO you don't.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


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John, you're the one who has not paid close attention.

Thank you Strongaxe.

It's not a matter of accepting or rejecting anyone. I told you John, if you need these to stimulate your intellect, or need tradition to give your flesh some warm fuzzies as to feeling religious, that is YOUR THING.

As for me, I do not need tradition or intellectual stimulation when it comes to the things of the Lord. Jesus said, my words are spirit and truth, living and powerful dividing between soul and spirit, joint and marrow.....which is far superior and lasting and transforming.

What I do REJECT here John is your whole approach. It's immature and juvenile.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


So to answer you question, WHICH IS MY FINAL ANSWER, scripture DOES WARN us to stay away from false teachers, traditions and fables, the LAW, being unequally yoked, and the last days when sin will abound more and more. But FORBID???? WELL! I believe in free will. And you have chosen free will to read and enjoy the works of the church fathers. OK....my free will has chosen not to based on exerts here and there I see and have heard that I've yet to hear any preach our identification with Jesus Christ and him Crucified.....like Galatians 2:20-21 and Romans 6 for example.

IF perhaps you know of one who has, I will take a gander at it and see if they are in the faith. I Know Calvin didn't, and Calvinism DOESN'T.

FINAL ANSWER.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


john9346:

As far as Jews are concerned, the Shema is something Israel is required to hear, and law forbids lighting of fires on the Sabbath, so any (such as candles) must be lit beforehand, and by placing a buffer time before sunset, it ensures that one does not accidentally transgress.

I am not aware of any scripture that commands saying the Shema twice a day, nor of any that requires a precise 18 minute buffer zone between sunset and lighting of candles. The specifics appear to be tradition.

As far as Christians are concerned, as we are not under the law, neither of those apply to us.
---StrongAxe on 1/4/17


Kathr,

So everyone understands:

Pay close attention ok?

1. Are you Telling us, that you reject that the "Shema." should be said twice a day??

3. Are you telling us that you reject that the Shabbat Candles should be lit 18 minutes before sunset??

When you address my questions to you with maturity, honesty, and adult-likeness I will be glad to answer the questions you have asked of me. Through out this posting so far you have refused to answer questions asked of you. You did this on the posting as well.
---john9346 on 1/4/17


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Kathr states, "I do actually have discernment to know Augustine was a false teacher."

But remember you have never read the church fathers...
---john9346 on 1/4/17


questions that still need to be answered:


1. Kathr still hasn't told us all that when John wrote (1 jn 2:20-21) that he was telling that church that they didn't need their pastor (no one to teach them.) Note context.

2. Kathr still hasn't answered the question that as a Jew do she reject the "Sages." which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"

3. I am still waiting for Kathr to tell us all in Gal 1:12-17 where is Paul saying that we do not need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today??
---john9346 on 1/4/17


Hello readers,


Note, rather then answer questions Kathr continues to engage in juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks.

I have agreed that if she will answer the questions asked of her I will answer the questions she has asked of me.
---john9346 on 1/4/17


Cluny, I do actually have discernment to know Augustine was a false teacher who went against those in the beginning of the church you call fathers, who taught what is now Calvinism, which I know even You don't believe. I believe in free will, as did the original so called church fathers and I still did not need any so called church fathers to HAMMER THAT OUT FOR ME EITHER.

No John does not have discernment when it comes to false teachers. Christians who are IN CHRIST do. You think that is arrogant to say so? Well we will KNOW the truth and the TRUTH will set us free. That's a promise to the most ignorant and humble of Chriatians. So it has NOTHING to do with us, but with GOD'S FAITHFULNESS.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


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\\Here's the bottom line John, YOU have no discernment or spiritual maturity to decide who is and isn't actually called by God.\\

You don't actually think that YOU have them, do you? Are you THAT ignorant of yourself?

Happy Neew Year!
---Cluny on 1/4/17


I also can't imagine what the TRADITION of lighting candles on the sabbath has to do with anything either.

Does John Actually believe that when a Jewish person becomes a Christian they bring with them traditions under the LAW?

How totally ignorant John is of spiritual things.

Or does John just want to play some cat and mouse game and not answer questions asked of him.

So tell us John, do you get an ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday? An RCC tradition? How much tradition of the RCC do you still practice? After all Reformed is from the RCC. How many times do you Go to mass every week? Don't your church fathers teach this? Is that the problem? You are trying to justify these false traditions?
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


John, since I don't practice any of those things you listed, what may I ask is the relevance of these questions. They have NOTHING to do with Christianity, nor did any of the JEWISH APOSTLES teach them or even refer to,them in any way shape or form. I am at a complete loss as to these questions and what they have to do with me. If you need the answer to these things look them up....I'm sure you can find the answers. But why would you need to practice them?

So tell us John, how may times a day do you pick your nose? In other words neither has one iota to do with Christianity.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


Question 1

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

John, how many a day times do YOU say this? Does SAYING IT make you special OR simply living it 24/7/365 more effective? RELIGION VS RELATIONSHIP. I choose relationship.
---kathr4463 on 1/4/17


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Kathr said, "John when YOU can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your church fathers were in fact GIFTED with the Gifts given solely to those IN CHRIST, Ephesians 4,


I will be glad to do this, but first, answer the following questions:

I want you to listen very carefully ok?



1. Tell us, how many times a day should the "Shema." be said??

2. Where in Torah does it state to "Light Shabbat Candles."

3. Do you agree that the Shabbat Candles should be lit 18 minutes before sunset??

questions are meant to be answered not avoided...
---john9346 on 1/4/17


Here's the bottom line John, YOU have no discernment or spiritual maturity to decide who is and isn't actually called by God. You think, like so many that if you are highly exalted by man, you must be all that. You can't even discern Augustine was a quack and may not even be a Born Again believer, but just another in the world of academia many seem to be so impressed with. I'm not. Head knowledge means nothing to me. We are thankful for Luther, but even he didn't get it all correct either.

We all, INDIVIDUALLY have to work out our OWN salvation.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


Kathr,


Ma'am, pay attention the questions to you again is do you reject the sages and their teachings.

I listed some of the traditions to you and you will not reject them.

What I am saying to you is the accusations you bring against the church fathers can also be said of the sages.

As a Jew, you yourself practice some of these traditions just be honest.

I admit I do practice some of the traditions of the church fathers simply because the traditions do not contradict "Scripture."

Kathr, I know you hold to some the traditions of the sages I used to practice Judaism. The tradition of the sages are of Jewish Culture.

This is why you cant reject or deny them be honest with everyone.
---john9346 on 1/4/17


//Does he and Nicole come from the same gene pool Having cognitive inability to understand the conversation?---kathr4453 on 1/4/17

I am sure David has enough cookies and milk to share with you.

Go watch your cartoons.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/4/17


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John when YOU can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your church fathers were in fact GIFTED with the Gifts given solely to those IN CHRIST, Ephesians 4, by that I mean, those who have testified and witnessed to being CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and raised a NEW CREATURE, and have identified their gift as one given by the Lord and not by man or self, who preached Christ Crucified and risen, who did not mingle Gnosticism with scripture, then give me the name of that church father. All I see is he may be another in the BOC, AND MAYBE NOT, but to call him my father is out of the question. He may be my brother, but NOT my father.

Can you do that? Those who taught FREE WILL. The ones who taught the PURE MILK OF THE WORD with No additives.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


John, has a problem with my being a Born Again Jew, who DOES NOT FOLLOW JEWISH TRADITIONS OR THE SAGES? Can anyone Please show me where I have or quoted where I quote the Jewish Sages and promote Jewish traditions? IS John an ignorant or just a mental? Does he and Nicole come from the same gene pool Having cognitive inability to understand the conversation?

Doesnt he co-mingled Gnosticism with the scriptures? Doesnt he have Calvin's gold ring in his nose dancing around the fire? Shouldn't he worry about his own obedience and stay the HE11 away from mine?
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


You're not the first DIRTY CALVINIST that has shown up here with its dirty evil tactics of attacking and lying and assaulting others who challenge your deformed theology. AND like John T, Lisa, Lee, MarkV, many who keep changing their names because they eventually get kicked off for the way they attack those who simply want to lift up the CROSS, and not man.

What do you have against the CROSS John? And which one of your church fathers died for your sin? 1 Cor 3 says you're carnal John, a BABY, still on milk. And you want to spit up your sour milk on others...?

Why? I think you are jealous of those who are on strong meat. Because YOU have no teeth yet, your temper tantrums are really that of a child. GROW UP?
---kathr4453 on 1/4/17


Hello readers:

Note, Kathr's Behavior when I asked her if she reject as a Jew the teachings of the sages who are equivalent to the church fathers.

Kathr's Response was full of juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks, but she could not answer the question does she reject the sages.

I point this out because it is hypocritical to condemn and reject the church fathers for traditions when she herself as a Jew follow teachings of the sages who believed and taught tradition as well...
---john9346 on 1/3/17


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Kathr,

The sages mixed falsehood and tradition with Judaism...

Kathr, tell us all:


1. Tell us, how many times a day should the "Shema." be said??

2. Where in Torah does it state to "Light Shabbat Candles."

3. Do you agree that the Shabbat Candles should be lit 18 minutes before sunset??




---john9346 on 1/3/17


Kathr,

My point in referring you to Phil 3:4-7 is Paul was a very smart man who knew and learned the traditions.

What you must show in Gal 1:12-17 is where is Paul saying that we do not need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today??

This goes back to the question you refuse to answer in stating that 1 Jn 2:2021 is stating we don't need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today.
---john9346 on 1/3/17


kathr, forget what I asked you if you had read any of the Fathers.

It's obvious you would understand them anyway, since they speak from a Christian standpoint.

Happy New Year!
---cluny on 1/3/17


See, Phil 3:4-7.
---john9346 on 1/3/17

And if you continue reading counted all that DUNG...DOG POOP compared to the excellency and knowledge of KNOWING CHRIST......exactly what I have been saying...you don't get. If the best of the church fathers are quotes you posted, again DUNG. Also knowing Augustine co-mingled Gnosticism with scripture again...SIN. FALSE TEACHER.

Hashing out the doctrine of the Trinity......if Jesus or Peter or Paul felt that was of the upmost, they would have hammered that out. Faith is believing God, whether one understands or not. It has nothing to do with mans intellect....which YOU must need....voiding out FAITH that YOU claim only YOU were given. I see no evidence you have any faith.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


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I promise you folks...obey Romans 12:1-2 and you will understand what Paul is saying here. All things are ours as well. Our Lord God will reveal His Son IN You if you diligently SEEK HIM.


Galatians1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 ------14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


The Scriptures do not forbid Christians from reading and quoting the Fathers and the councils of the church. What the Scriptures teach us is the Truth. It is a good policy to learn as much as we can about the God of the Bible. It is also a good practice to learn about the church.

Kath, you say:
"If not, then you can see men can pound away and still never come to the truth. So exactly HOW did their teaching lead others to Christ?

Every time a church father told the Truth from Scripture, and it came to the recipient with the power of the Holy Spirit, those individuals came to Christ. Faith came by hearing the truth of the gospel.
Second, if you want to debate, do not get angry at others. Otherwise, do not answer.
---Luke on 1/3/17


John, Paul also said to avoid fables and traditions, of which I assume was taught by the sages.

I find your questions to be actually STUPID, having nothing to do with the wisdom and knowledge that is in CHRIST ALONE. Maybe my conviction of TRUTH has somehow bothered you????? But again, I'm not accountable to anyone but the Lord....so in the nicest way I can say this.....why are you persecuting me for my beliefs and conscience?

But if you wish to follow fables, traditions sages etc, by all means John do so.

Your also becoming a real pain in the buttocks. You asked a question...I answered it. If you don't like my answer....TOUGH!
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


John, I hate to call you an IDIOT, but to say I accept the sages .....have no idea where that came from. You seem to be pulling CRAP out of nowhere. Just BECAUSE I do not want to answer your stupid rediculous questions does not give you the right to attack and accuse me of what ever you wish. I do not consider YOU a brother in Christ, but rather an ENEMY of me and of the CROSS. Your attacking and accusing has placed you in that position with me.

I also do not care to answer any more of your STUPID questions or statements. So BACK OFF.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


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Kathr said, "John, when will you ever learn to read and pay attention. If you understood what Imsaid on another blog you would not be making these statements."

Its because I read your statements on the other blog is why I had to ask you a second time.


I find it telling that you won't reject the sages, but you sure do have a lot to condemn the church fathers over when the sages provided their traditions, ideas, opinions, and thoughts just as the church fathers.

You also never answered the question on the other blog asked of you Several Times if you have ever read the church fathers.

Kathr, I have read the writings of the sages.
---john9346 on 1/3/17


Kathr states, "Then Paul was saved, and did not sit under any sages or so called church fathers,"

First, you are assuming,

Next, Paul would have learned much from the rabbis and he would have known of the writing of the sages.

See, Phil 3:4-7.
---john9346 on 1/3/17


Kathr,

I have aquestion for you.

Tell us, how many times a day should the "Shema." be said??
---john9346 on 1/3/17


Kathr,

2 other question for yu:

1. Where in Torah does it state to "Light Shabbat Candles."

2. Do you agree that the Shabbat Candles should be lit 18 minutes before sunset??
---john9346 on 1/3/17


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john9346:

You wrote: Sir, just so I understand what you are saying, is this your definition of "Sola Scriptura?"

No, it's YOURS. You said that scripture itself is sufficient to establish all doctrine, without the need to refer to any traditions outside of scripture. As such, we don't need to refer to any outside authorities to tell us what scripture REALLY means, according to whatever traditions they happen to follow. Rather, we should be able to determine what scripture really means from scripture itself, without REQUIRING any additional outside authorities to explain it.
---StrongAxe on 1/3/17


John, when will you ever learn to read and pay attention. If you understood what Imsaid on another blog you would not be making these statements.

And just to make a point.....the Rabbis you called Jewish Sages, pounding out the OT, did THEY ever pound out the truth of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? We're the sages before Jesus ever mentioned in Scripture and quoted by Paul, And we're the Sages AFTER Jesus resurrection ever quoted as believing Jesus is God the Messiah?

If not, then you can see men can pound away and still never come to the truth. So exactly HOW did their teaching lead others to Christ?
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


Paul learned under Gameliel, a teacher of the LAW, before Paul was saved. Whether one considers Gameliel a Jewish Sage, who knows. Even with that great teaching Paul murdered Christians. Then Paul was saved, and did not sit under any sages or so called church fathers, but was alone with the he Lord 14 years or so learning from the Lord. We know Paul is an exception as an apostle, HOWEVER Paul teaches us straight from scripture, NOT OTHER MANS WORKS. He tells US we have that same Spirit to teach us and transform us.

John we don't need PROCESSED FOOD. It's bad for you anyway.

I don't need someone to HAMMER OUT my faith. I WILL hammer that out PERSONALLY WITH GOD....using scripture to teach scripture.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


So John, you don't need MY permission to read and quote any one your little heart desires. And I DONT NEED YOUR permission to believe and keep my conscience clear as the Lord has shown me, and not fill it with processed food and junk food, etc. AKA: LEAVEN.

So,this idea that you feel you need to hang me up and point...KATHR SAYS ....also misquoting me, only show you have no understanding of spiritual things.

Is this suppose to be some sort of public flogging? If so...by all means flog away if it makes you feel superior. God will humble you in your arrogant need to do that. Or maybe you do it out of envy??? Again, the Lord will deal with that too.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/17


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To recap from Previous Blog:

everyone note:



1. Kathr admitted that we all need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today,yet, she continue to reject the church fathers.

2. Kathr could never tell us all that when John wrote (1 jn 2:20-21) that he was telling that church that they didn't need their pastor (no one to teach them.)

3. Kathr could never answer the question that as a Jew do she reject the "Sages." which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"
---john9346 on 1/2/17


Kathr,

In the attention of all the readers here yes or no as a Jew do you reject the sages which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"

If we all here should have nothing to do with the church fathers, then as a Jew you should have nothing to do with the teachings, beliefs, and traditions of the sages?

Again, my question to you, as a Jew do you reject the sages which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??" yes or no


---john9346 on 1/2/17


strongaxe said, "I would think that under Sola Scriptura, that while useful, they would not be NECESSARY - someone should be able to pick up scripture, and be able to understand it, without requiring the need of some religious functionary to explain it to them, according to that functionary's tradition."

Sir, just so I understand what you are saying, is this your definition of "Sola Scriptura?"
---john9346 on 1/2/17


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