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Saved By Following Bible

Do you believe someone can be saved, if they only follow what's written in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

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 ---David on 2/21/17
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Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I think many have not really seen this verse David.

Grace is a GIFT..it is the Finished works of Christ. This is what we receive BY FAITH.

Many want to say the gift is faith itself...however I believe the Gift is the gift of Righteousness, just as Romans 5 clearly state it is.

But faith, like James said is more than a mental acknowledgement. Head knowledge will not save a fly.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/17


David, these verses are AWESOME.


Romans 5:15-17

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/17


Hebrews 11 show faith in action. Works of faith, not works of the Law.---kathr4453 on 3/7/17

Kathryn
This is what I believe too!
I'm glad to hear your definition of faith, is faith by works. Now we're one step closer, to the point many folks miss.

Now since Paul taught we are saved by "Grace though faith", and James taught faith without works is worthless, that faith by which we receive Grace, must be by works of faith. To believe Grace is obtained without works, one must also believe Gods Grace is worthless.

Christ layed the very foundation of Paul's, "Grace through faith" teaching in (John 14:21). Not by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Christ. (John 1:17).
---David on 3/8/17


David, James speaks of obedience of faith. Where Paul uses obedience James uses the word works. James is not talking about the works of the Law. Simply said, no LAW required Abraham to sacrifice his son and no LAW required Rahab to lie. So that must be made clear. In other words their belief led to action. Faith without action is dead. Our faith is not simply in faith itself, but in the Promises of God. Abel's offering was ACTION because he believed in the promises of Genesis 3:15, and no doubt had been taught by his parents what offering a sacrifice of blood meant. And because of Abel's actions PROVING HIS FAITH, he was made a heir of the righteousness that was by FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/17


6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
It's always been by Faith David, and Hebrews 11 show faith in action. Works of faith, not works of the Law. Abraham was called, AND OBEYED THAT CALL. It's called obedience of faith.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/17




Just refresh your browser.
---Webmaster on 3/7/17


Obedience of faith leads to Righteousness, Obedience of faith leads to JUSTIFICATION ,---kathr4453 on 3/6/17

Kathryn
I can't find either of these statements in (Roman 6), but nevertheless I'll pretend it is.

In (James 2:18), James mentioned two types of faith. He speaks of a faith with works, a faith which has value, and a faith without works, a faith he calls worthless.
Which faith are you referring to in your statements?
---David on 3/7/17


Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,.....David, how Romans 6 is stated... Obedience of faith leads to righteousness.

When did I ever state the opposite. Again you must have me confused with someone else. Obedience of faith leads to JUSTIFICATION, that declares one righteous..the imputed righteousness of Christ..is only the beginning.

Then comes sanctification...which is something that is ongoing still requiring obedience of faith. The JUST or JUSTIFIED shall live by faith.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/17


18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.---kathr4453 on 3/5/17

Kathryn
If you go down a few more verses Paul also said in (Romans 6:16)
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness"

Weren't you born into sin, once a "Servant of sin"?
In light of the above verse, can you tell us how you managed to became a servant of God, without obedience?

You teach righteousness leads to obedience, when Paul clearly says obedience leads to righteousness.
Can you explain this disparity?
---David on 3/6/17


Kathr, thanks for pointing out the vast differences between the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

Did you notice that Matt 1:21 reads "for He shall save His people from their sins" and not in their sins? What about John 8:15 "And the servant abides not in the house forever"? God's house is His Kingdom and there will be no sin there. Rev. 21:27, Rev 22:15.

You quote 1st John 2:2 but you need to read on through verses 2-29 to hear the real message. "And hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that says, I know him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."
---barb on 3/6/17




David, John 8:34... Those who sin are servants of sin. KJV says servants not slaves.

Romans 6 is totally centered on HOW one is set free from being a servant of sin. This ONLY comes through Jesus death and resurrection. So David, what part of Romans 6 are you arguing against?

And your argument is I teach against Jesus? NO ONE BUT Jesus can set us free from sin.


Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sin.

1 st John, .... The same John who wrote The Gospel of John said:
And not only for ours, but the sin of the whole world.

Also John the Baptist Testifies...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world....referring to Jesus who takes away sin, and the whole world means Jews and Gentiles. And Hebrews tells us EXACTLY how that came about. Jesus came to set man FREE from sin David. Does the 4 Gospels tell you that? Or is that part something you reject ? So you reject the FINISHED works of Christ...correct?

David, what faith are you, maybe that will help me udestand your doctrine?
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


Finally David,,I see you are hung up on John 8:34, and that is OK as long as you balance this with HOPE that one can be set free from the power of sin. Romans 6 tell us exactly how the power of sin is broken in our life. To OMIT that, or say because it is not taught in the 4 Gospels it's not the Gospel,of Jesus Christ......then I have a problem with your gospel.

The reason is David, Romans 6-8 is also the Gospel of Jesus Christ....deeply rooted and grounded in Genesis 3:15.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


If you really believe that then SAY EXACTLY how I preach against Christ, rather than just making an ignorant comment out of nowhere. ---kathr4453 on 3/4/17

Kathryn
Fair enough, let's start with one of the Lords primary teachings.
Jesus said, "Everyone who sins is a slave of sin" in (John 8:34). Do you teach this in your Church?
---David on 3/5/17


So David, not wanting to get angry with you, your comment is not only false, but a lie. I should be angry. Making generalizations like that, based on something who knows what, is wrong. If you really believe that then SAY EXACTLY how I preach against Christ, rather than just making an ignorant comment out of nowhere.

When I Lay the foundation of the Gospel I start at the fall of Adam and Eve, then show Genesis 3:15 ...the promise of a redeemer, on to Abraham and so on. IF your gospel is not built on original sin, it's not the Gospel. And the ONLY ONE who can take away sin is JESUS Christ. HE did WHEN He died and rose again.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/17


David, you must have me mixed up with someone else, or you are just mixed up. You have accused me of believing this or that, or not believing this or that...and you are making no sense. ABEL believed the GOSPEL, believe it or not David, and I believe Abel was a gentile. Paul was an apostle TO THE GENTILES. So even Paul believed the Gospel is to the Gentiles. Actually he shows that in Galatians going all the way back to Abraham, who was not a Jew either. And the promises to Abraham still stand and were not annulled when the Law came into effect.

So David, I don't know what YOU are building on that omits othe OT foundation? The gospel is grounded in the EVERLASTING COVENANT, that was first announced in Genesis 3:15.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/17


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Tell us David, what is the foundation of your gospel?--kathr4453 on 3/3/17

Kathryn
The Gospel of Christ, as it was with Paul and the rest of the Lords disciples. Written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

When I build a lesson about salvation, it starts with a Gospel foundation. Then after I have established the foundation, I may use something Paul or one of the other disciplines taught, to build upon it.

Paul and the disciples never taught against Christ, as your doctrine clearly does. Since you don't believe the Gospel was written to gentiles, this is completely understandable.

But If the Gospel of Christ was only for the Jews, why would Paul make it his foundation, when teaching gentiles?
---David on 3/4/17


Paul give background and deep dimensions to the Gospel of Christ. After all he was a scholar. Our understanding must include the whole Bible.

All scripture is for doctrine and truth. 2 timothy 3:16.

It is by comparing scripture with scripture as the final authority above the words of men that truth is found.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is from the whole Bible.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/4/17


David, firstly, Jesus said , salvation is OF the Jews, meaning the Jews religion. So the foundation would have to be as scripture tells us, upon the prophets and apostleS as in all the apostles. I told you before, Paul as well as Peter are both preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Paul goes back to the promises given to Abraham...in thee will all families of the earth be blessed. Jesus teaching validates Abraham our father as being of FAITH.

This is all difficult to establish in 125 words.

Even in the OT Isaiah 53 prophecied of Jesus death...and Psalms prophecies of Jesus resurrection....

So does your Gospel omit the necessity of Jesus death and resurrection?
---kathr4453 on 3/3/17


David, the very foundation of the Gospel began in Genesis 1. And the very conclusion of the Gospel ends in Revelation.

I'm not sure what Gospel YOU are referring to, that ONLY is found in the 4 Gospels, that somehow omits all the OT foundation. And since the NT, which includes the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ includes John 17...I IN THEM AND THOU IN ME, THAT WE MAY BE ONE, is further revealed and explained through Paul, Peter, 1 2 3 John, James explains FAITH, Hebrews the BLOOD...

Not sure what Gospel you believe that OMITS these truth?

Tell us David, what is the foundation of your gospel??? WORKS? Earning your way to God. being good enough? Or having the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST? PHilippians 3
---kathr4453 on 3/3/17


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Kathryn
The context of all New Testament teachings are founded in the Gospel of Christ. I'm sorry you don't believe this, but it's true.

You claim your teachings are founded on Paul's epistles, not the Gospel of Christ, though Paul epistles are founded on the Gospel of Christ.
Can you explain this disparity?

A teaching without contextual foundation, can be made to say whatever that teacher wants it to say.

Kathryn,
If your doctrine is founded on Paul's epistles and not the Gospel of Christ, and Paul's doctrine is founded on the Gospel of Christ, does your doctrine have a foundation?
---David on 3/3/17


No David we are not saved by following. ---Samuelbb7 on 3/2/17

(Matthew 10:38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Samuel
Therefore you disagree with Jesus says in the above verse.
I forgot, which doctrine do you follow again? I would like to study it a bit before I continue to converse with you.
---David on 3/2/17


So David, are you another that believe that obedience of faith is saving oneself? Faith comes by HEARING, the WORD OF GOD. Jesus said my words are SPIRIT AND LIFE. So what one hears makes all the difference. It MUST be Spirit and TRUTH. SO with that the Spirit draws the sinner. We either accept or reject what the Holy Spirit is saying to us. Yes the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted. Just look in Acts.

And Jesus said,,,All,day long I have stretched out my hand to you...BUT YOU WOULD NOT. SO WE have a part in reaching back.

My responding is not me saving myself David. My responding to God by accepting and believing is what saves me. Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans 4.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/17


No David we are not saved by following. We are saved by believing.

It is called having faith. But those who have faith will obey the words of GOD. Works show who we are. They don't save. They are the results of being saved.

Because we love others we don't lie, steal, murder, covet or commit adultery. Because we love GOD we reverence his name and allow nothing to come between us and Him. Nor do we misuse his name. Because we love GOD and our Lord Jesus Christ we love to spend time with Him.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/2/17


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David, careful making statements: "many LIKE YOU".

OK The sign of salvation, comes AFTER, just like Abraham's circumcision was a sign/ seal OF his faith, given after he believed. He believed BEFORE he was circumcised. So, AFTER we believe we are sealed, (a sign) with the Holy Spirit. Romans 4. Ephesians ...

So we have even Jesus testifying of Abraham in the Gospels. Saying "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and was glad". Abraham also saw the resurrection in a vision. SO Paul using Abraham, Jesus has no problem with. Do you?

Now today Colossians 2 explain the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS. And it is again...I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, by PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SIN OF THE FLESH.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/17


Are you refering to a person before or after they are saved?---kathr4453 on 3/1/17

Kathryn
Many folks believe they are saved, but of those, I doubt less than 1% actually are. Paul speaks to the saved and the unsaved, and most folks, like you, simple put themselves into category of the saved.

If I were you, with no biblical signs of salvation, I think I would believe as you do. Kathryn, what I say may anger you, but I tell you these things because I love you.

Salvation comes from following the doctrine set by Jesus Christ in his Gospel, and not those, like yours, which proclaim folks can save themselves because they believe.

If we are saved because we believe, don't we save ourselves by believing?
---David on 3/2/17


Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

So,David, moving past John 8 to NOW AFTER THE CROSS, are YOU a servant of sin?

Also David, Saint simply means set apart. And those in Christ are set apart. It doesn't mean a little God. So I'm not sure why the word Saint offends you. Paul addressed those BABY CARNAL Chriatians in 1 Corinthians as SAINTS.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


David, your post is confusing. Are you refering to a person before or after they are saved? Are you saying you are a sinner before your saved, and also,after you are saved?

Justification is when a person acknowledges he is a sinner, and places his faith in Jesus Christ...that is what I believe repentance is....turning to Christ.

When one is Justifed ....that is a work of God, we are justified by HIS BLOOD, God imputes the righteousness to the sinner. NOW the sinner is counted as righteous in Gods Eyes. Justification is not the New Birth. So AFTER one believes, again then by an act of God, we are baptized int Jesus death and raised a New Creature. The NEW CREATURE is not identified in Gods eyes as a sinner, but a son.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


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Why is it how I see myself?--kathr4453

Kathryn
But it is about how you see yourself, when you are a sinner and claim God sees you as a Saint. Sinners are called to repent, but if you do not see yourself as a sinner, why would you feel the need to repent?

In (John 8:34), Jesus defined someone who sins as servant of sin. But you sin, and say God sees you as a Saint. (John 8:34) is a sample of the milk you refuse to drink, and that is why I question how you see yourself.

(Hebrews 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
---David on 3/1/17


know Christians who sin don't see themselves as sinners.
So to you, being a new creation means you are now allowed to sin, only you are not held accountable for your sins?
---David on 2/28/17


David, this is what I don't understand. How God sees me was the discussion, Not how I see myself. Why is it how I see myself? You completely changed the subject matter.
I thought we were discussing :
Our standing before God. Our Justification ...being declared righteous by God Himself. INPUTED the righteousness of Christ, only God can do.

I think it is important to see ourselves through Gods eyes. And the only way to do that is to believe what God has said through His word, whether I understand it or feel it myself.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/17


Therefore, in Gods eyes, once justified,God does not see us as sinners, but saints. He is joined to the New Creature, created in righteousness and holiness. ---kathr4453 on 2/27/17

Kathryn
Hmmm....very informative. I didn't know Christians who sin don't see themselves as sinners.
So to you, being a new creation means you are now allowed to sin, only you are not held accountable for your sins?
---David on 2/28/17


Bill and PH! I actually believe scripture says we are joined with Jesus Christ in death. We are baptized into His death. My old man died with Christ. The flesh aka the old man died with Christ. Hebrews says we enter a new and living way through the veil, that is to say His flesh, meaning " I am crucified with Christ, ...NO LONGER I but Christ. Gal 2:20.

I don't believe like so many that our old man is renewed, or restored back to what Adam was before he sinned.

Paul also says....Who will deliver me from the body of this death....I thank God through Jesus Christ. Also Romans 8 says we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit of we are Christ's.

This is the preaching of the cross.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


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kathr the first you quoted from Matthew was about the regeneration of creation,(read it again) that's why the comma is there, the second verse (from Titus) says exactly what I told you, it's the Holy Spirit that does the work of Spiritual regeneration!

Here's more proof that you're wrong... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Eph 1:13 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:20 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:9
---PH on 2/27/17


"Do you believe someone can be saved, if they only follow what's written in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

What the Gospels mean is what the New Testament epistles also mean. So, it is not possible to follow only what is in the Gospels and not be following all which Jesus means by the epistles (c:

By the way > "Does God join Himself to sinners?"

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

I offer that He joins to a sinful person, then changes him or her into having the nature of His love > He made us alive in His love (Ephesians 2:1) . . . by first joining us to Him so He could make us become alive in His love.
---Bill on 2/27/17


PH, scripture says we are first justified by HIS BLOOD. Now in the NT the Blood cleanses and washes away sin once and for all. Under the OT the blood of bulls and goats only covered. That's why no one in the OT was Born Again. They were JUST, or Justified, but we're not made perfect until Jesus rose from the dead. NOW they are the spirits of Just men made perfect. Hebrews 12.

Read Romans 4-8 very carefully, the "old man" is not cleansed, but crucified. The blood of Jesus washed away our sin, not our old man...our identification with Jesus in Death deals with the old man. It's out of death that we are resurrected with Christ, called the New Birth. Old things pass away, ALL THINGS become new, right now.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


There are only two verses that use the word regeneration. I believe scripture teaches scripture.

Those who have followed Jesus in death and resurrection life ..is following Jesus in the regeneration, or new birth. NEW Life comes out of death.

Matthew: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


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God is not joined to a dead man. he is joined to the NEW MAN.

---kathr4453 on 2/27/17

Don't you see this doesn't make sense? The "new man" doesn't become new except by the regeneration of the Spirit in Christ. No human being can make himself new, Jesus says "behold I make all things new." How does he do this in people without entering and cleansing them?
---PH on 2/27/17


David, are you looking at it from Gods eyes, or man's eyes?? Through Gods eyes, we have the righteousness of Christ. Therefore, in Gods eyes, once justified,God does not see us as sinners, but saints. He is joined to the New Creature, created in righteousness and holiness.

God does not join Himself to sinners....the old man is crucified with Christ. So our old man is DEAD in Gods eyes. God is not joined to a dead man. he is joined to the NEW MAN.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


Yes.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




---Jerry6593 on 2/27/17


I think it's fair to say, the Holy Spirit AKA GOD, does not join Himself with sinners. He joins Himself with the NEW CREATURE.--Kathr4453

Kathryn
What do you call someone who sins and has the gift of the Holy Spirit?
I have always thought folks called someone who sins, a sinner.

Why does the first step of justification always seem to me missing in many of these discussions?

Kathryn
Because like most everything else, the word is defined by whatever doctrine someone tends to follow.
---David on 2/27/17


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"Jesus saves" Kathr this I can agree with. Concerning justification, The Father justifies those He calls. Rom 8:30 His called are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Rom 3:24, 2nd witness>Tit 3:7 "The righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ, Rom 3:22 and being justified by faith, [believers] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 5:1 Mans "participation" rest in his acquiescence.
---josef on 2/26/17


Excuse me but I quoted you.
---Pharisee on 2/26/17


Pharisee, Man FIRST has to be justified by God. Justification is the imputed righteousness of Christ to the believer. Justification is our legal standing before God, NOT the New Birth . We are justified by His Blood.That must come first before one is born again. Once that is done, THEN being Born of the spirit follows. So when one is justified FIRST, God is NOT joining Himself to a sinful man...because God has first declared him righteous...the righteousness of Christ actually...not even our own righteousness. PHil 3

I do wish people would read ALL posted before making false accusations someone never said.

And scripture states ..THOSE WHO HAVE THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM....
---kathr4453 on 2/26/17


Josef scripture says we are justified by His Blood And SAVED BY HIS LIFE. We must take ALL SCRIPTURES, not just selected verses.

If we don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth, it appears there are more than one way to be saved. Also we have the Triune God all doing His own thing, NOT AS ONE. And it appears you have the Holy Spirit saving people just by blowing by here and there at will. That is not what those verses mean. And John 6 is refering to Jews before the cross.

The Holy Spirit did not die for my sin, Jesus did. Jesus saves. We are saved by Jesus RISEN LIFE. His risen life IN US. Jesus does not just jump IN YOU without your concent.

Jesus is only IN those who have first been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/17


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What is man's will? The will of man consists of mans CONSCIENCE, intelligence, reasoning. So yes, the will of man, under the proper definition of WILL does play a part in it.

BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER.. That man went JUSTIFIED. remember that verse?

His conscience was very much aware he was a sinner. be merciful....asking for mercy.

This idea that man has no "will" is outrageous. Jesus showed us as a man He had a will as well, but chose to do the will of the Father and not His own as a role model for us. Jesus showing us WE ALSO have that same choice.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/17


"God does not force the New Birth on anyone against their will or knowledge." Kathr man's will plays no part in his salvation. Man is given to believe for Christ sake. Phl 1:29 No man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. John 6:45 Salvation is a gift, and as I've said, no man merits a gift. Eph 2:8 And every good and perfect gift is from above. Jas 1:17. Man is saved by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit as a result of the Father's love, and is granted to man through His Son. Tit 3:3-7
---josef on 2/25/17


"I think it's fair to say, the Holy Spirit AKA GOD, does not join Himself with sinners."

It's also heretical. If that statement is true where is YOUR HOPE? If that statement is true NO ONE can be saved.

In all of this where is room for what Jesus said? He came "not to call the righteous bus sinners to repentance."

It's delusional (there I go using that word again talking about your beliefs) to think that a human being makes himself a new creature for God to enter. What you said proves you don't know him. That's not my opinion, if you really received the Holy Spirit you would already know that this is what made you a new creature and able to keep yourself from sin.
---Pharisee on 2/26/17


In order to see the kingdom of heaven Christ tells us that we must first be born again.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith.

Romans 12:3 tells us that God gives us the measure of faith.

For us to have faith we must be born of his Spirit.

God works first and then man responds. Let us remember who is God and who is mere mortal man.
---Trey on 2/26/17


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John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I have always read and understood this verse to read not only free will...( to as many as) and also that one must receive Christ FIRST to be born Again. Because it is the last Adam, Jesus Christ who is that life giving spirit.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/17


Josef, being born again by "the word of God", faith comes by hearing.

The last man Adam ( JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD) is that life giving spirit. The first man Adam is flesh.

Ye must be born again. WHY! Because in Adam all die. When we believe and put our faith in the promises of God, AKA FAITH, then we are crucified with Christ, where our old man (flesh) died with Christ SO THAT when we are raised up together with Him...that is when we are Born Again.
God does not force the New Birth on anyone against their will or knowledge.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/17


Yes, because the Bible sends you to the Church.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/25/17


"I think it's fair to say that Being Born Again of the Spirit, what Acts is referring to does take obedience...that is obedience of faith."
Kathr "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." Where is mans participation mentioned in any of this?
---josef on 2/25/17


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I think it's fair to say, the Holy Spirit AKA GOD, does not join Himself with sinners. He joins Himself with the NEW CREATURE. So, one must FIRST be justified by the Blood of Jesus Christ , that is, cleansed of sin, not covered, before the Holy Spirit can live in or enter or even seal us. Why does the first step of justification always seem to me missing in many of these discussions?

We also enter a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say His flesh.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/17


"According to the the Lord's apostles in following verse, is the Holy Spirit a merited or unmerited gift?" David no one deserves the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit isn't merited in Act 5:3, it is given to them who obey Him. Just as it is given to all them which heard the word in Act 10:44. Or given to them that ask Him in Luke 11:13
---josef on 2/25/17


GOD sends the Holy Spirit to call us and convict us. He does this to all people. When we respond he leads us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I would not call that obedience so much as accepting.

But then the Holy Spirit does lead us to obey and follow Jesus in our lives.

Only the Bible shows us how to be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/25/17


Jesus loved that woman at the well while she was still sinful . . . not meriting His love. And Jesus died on the cross for us, "when we were enemies", our Apostle Paul says in Romans 5:10. So, Jesus by His actions and Paul in his message both indicate that God's grace is not merited.

Also, we are not "sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:5. So, of our own selves, we are not able to please God and merit His blessing and salvation. And Jesus says that with humans, this is "impossible" Matthew 19:26). So, Jesus and Paul agree (c:

God's love changes us first.
---Bill on 2/25/17


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I think it's fair to say that Being Born Again of the Spirit, what Acts is referring to does take obedience...that is obedience of faith.

And then the Gifts or Fruit of the Spirit, one being Love, is freely given to those now in Christ. However even bearing fruit does again need to be accompanied by obedience of walking in the spirit and not in the flesh.

To suggest we are rag dolls having nothing to do with any participation whatsoever is not taught in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/17


To answer your question, the Spirit of love is a gift, a man does nothing to merit a gift.--josef

Josef
You believe Gods gifts are unmerited, but isn't the Holy Spirit a gift from God? According to the the Lord's apostles in following verse, is the Holy Spirit a merited or unmerited gift?

(Acts 5:32) And we are his witnesses of these things, and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
---David on 2/24/17


David, Peter preached the Gospel of Christ, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He said they were EYE WITNESSES. Peter did not preach a different gospel than Paul. All one has to do is read Peter epistles to know he didn't. Peter preached GRACE, and the fellowship of His sufferings. 1Peter 4. And to be made partakers of His Divine nature IS also the MYSTERY of Christ in You...THE ONLY WAY one can be partakers of His divine nature. 2 Peter 1. Is Christ In You.

Peter did tell those that Paul had a deeper understanding and may be hard for them to understand, but NEVER SAID HE didn't understand it. Peter also said, those who argue against Paul do so to their own destruction, again showing solidarity with Paul.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/17


(John 14:21) He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father...." This verse says nothing about love being merited, or in any way deserved by what we do. David It is the Father that has given the believer the Spirit of love, and it is through the Spirit that we hold unfeigned love for our fellowman. "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." To answer your question, the Spirit of love is a gift, a man does nothing to merit a gift. 2Ti 1:7>1Pe 1:22>Rom 5:5
---josef on 2/23/17


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Jesus said that his commandment was that we love one another, as He has loved us. And the Father's commandment is that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus [the] Christ, and that love one another, as He gave us commandment. Again, this commandment have we from him, that he who loves God loves his brother also. Concerning obedience, it is the Lord that causes us to increase and abound in love one toward another. Jhn 13:34> Jhn 15:12> 1Jo 3:23>1Th 3:12
---josef on 2/23/17


David the Love of God is not mentioned in the gospel as merited or unmerited.--Josef

(John 14:21) He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father....

Josef
In accordance with the above verse,
If you do not keep the Lords commandments, do you love Christ?
If you do not love Christ, does God the Father, love you?

After answering the above questions, tell me, what you discovered about Gods love. Is it merited or unmerited?
---David on 2/23/17


The other Gospel in Matthew is the Gospel,of the Kingdom, that is earthly kingdom promised to be restored to Israel. ---kathr4453 on 2/22/17

Kathryn
But if this is the truth, how do you explain the Gentiles in (Acts 10:44-46)? Since Paul had never preached to them, which Gospel caused then to receive the Holy Ghost, and to speak in tongues?

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
---David on 2/23/17


Go, and preach the gospel!
Most Christians agree this is what the church is supposed to do. Most have been told the word gospel means good news or glad tidings.
The question nobody asks should be, what is the good news?, or which gospel? Hardly anyone asks this. Everyone tries to preach the gospel without an agreement of what it is.
There are many gospel messages in the Bible. When Christians fail to see the difference in the gospel message revealed to the apostle Paul from other gospels in the Bible, then what the church preaches becomes an uncertain sound and causes confusion
---michael_e on 2/22/17


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Jesus never called His words, my gospel or the gospel of Christ. He called His message "the gospel of the kingdom" and He preached it throughout all the cities, villages and in the synagogues. Matt 9:35, Matt 4:23, Matt 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world as a witness unto ALL nations, and then the end shall come."

The gospel of the kingdom will be a witness to all nations so we better know what it is and start preaching the truth to the world before it's too late. John 18:37.
---barb on 2/22/17


One such is that Christ preached to a pre cross Israel,(John3:16?) another says there are two different gospels, in truth they are the same and should be reconciled.--Pharisee

Exactly!
Paul didn't teach a different Gospel, He simply built on the one Jesus gave us.

Reconciliation is impossible when someone tries to make the Gospel of Christ fit into their doctrine, rather than making their doctrine fit into the Gospel of Christ.
---David on 2/22/17


"Can you show me, in the Gospel, where Jesus taught the love of God is unmerited?" David the Love of God is not mentioned in the gospel as merited or unmerited. However since we know that love is listed as fruit of the Spirit, and the Spirit is a gift, than logic dictates that love is also a gift, and a gift is unmerited, or it can not be referred to as a gift.
---josef on 2/22/17


In what way?--Josef

Josef
In many ways, but let's start with the main one, Grace. Many believe Paul teaches an unmerited version.
Can you show me, in the Gospel, where Jesus taught the love of God is unmerited?
---David on 2/22/17


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David, many have tried to explain the apparent differences betwix the gospel of Christ and the hyper grace teachings of Paul. All sorts of ideas have been cooked up to deal with this. One such is that Christ preached to a pre cross Israel,(John3:16?) another says there are two different gospels, in truth they are the same and should be reconciled. Even among the four gospels there is a marked difference in the tone of the writings between the synoptics and John's gospel. Harmonize those four and you'll see Paul preached the exact same message. My opinion is that different authors had different emphasis. Do a word search in Paul's letters on the word "if" and check out what you find.
---Pharisee on 2/22/17


David, I pointed out on another blog that closed that Paul in fact was preaching the Gospel of Christ, which is also the Gospel according to the Mystery ...the Mystery is CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of Glory.

Jesus said, ye must be born again. Jesus also prayed in John 17...I in them and thou in me that we may be ONE.

Actually David, THIS IS the Gospel of Christ.

The other Gospel in Matthew is the Gospel,of the Kingdom, that is earthly kingdom promised to be restored to Israel. There were folks preaching this who came to Galatia ....Paul calls that ANOTHER GOSPEL. If you study Galatians, they wanted to circumcise Gentiles , and put back under the law.......
---kathr4453 on 2/22/17


"But I find in those who claim they are teaching what Paul taught, their teachings are not supported by the Gospel of Christ."
In what way exactly? What is it that you are pointing out? Why be cryptic?
---josef on 2/22/17


I asked the question because many churches do not use the Lords Gospel (Matthew,Mark,Luke,John) to teach salvation. The foundation of their teachings, seem to come from a verse here or there, in the letters of Paul.

Throughout Paul's letters he proclaimed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as the foundation of his teachings. But I find in those who claim they are teaching what Paul taught, their teachings are not supported by the Gospel of Christ.

I thought I would point this out to folks, who thought they were following the teachings of Jesus Christ, when they're not. If their relationship with God is not what they expected, this is probably the reason. (John 14:21)
---David on 2/22/17


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depends.this question is about the history and wisdom. there is a watershed, the curtain of the temple. if the curtain of the temple is torn in two for you, for me?
for me, "to die" is a process, for the root of the self is kept there , for the reason of time. that is why 1Samuel15:22, to obey is better than sacrifice. NT has the same words.
i do not know much. here just my self experience for share.
---ds on 2/21/17


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say NO, they won't be saved by "ONLY" following Jesus' teachings in the gospels.

Jesus said that in the last day many would say Lord Lord, did we not do all these works...? You know how the saying ends. Either God saves us or we're lost.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh! Either you are born twice and die once or you're born once and die twice, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
---Pharisee on 2/21/17


"Do you believe someone can be saved, if they only follow what's written in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Whether you mean the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or the direct words of Jesus, my answer would be yes, If what is written is understood and recognized as applicable to all.
---josef on 2/21/17


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