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Cross Or An Upright Stake

It seems that translations of the Greek words "stau ros" and "xy lou" means a cross or an upright stake. Most christians use the symbol of the cross.

Your thoughts whether it's a cross or a upright stake.

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 ---Steveng on 10/17/17
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AXE. I confront Leftists with facts, which you do not like to hear. You then resort to the Left's victim card tactic in response.

Terms I've used like "propaganda", "socialist", "puppet masters", "brainwashed", are all relevant facts in our debate.
Likewise facts I've raised about the DEMs/Left's links to KKK, Nazism, their genocidal atrocities (e.g baby slaughter), racism, terrorism, & poverty record, etc.

If you truly obey Christ's command to love (John 13:34), then how can ignoring all these facts about your side of politics be consistent with that? Seems there's an irrational hate (from Left's propaganda) for conservatives blinding you to this command.

---Haz27 on 10/30/17


"His travel bans target people from mostly black and Arab Muslim countries, even though 99.96% of Muslims are not terrorists" -StrongAxe

Trumps order targets the same countries that were singled out with a law OBAMA signed in 2015, which restricted travel into the United States for people who lived in or visited Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, and Yemen, calling them "state sponsors of terrorism" and "terror safe-havens".

"He wants a wall against Mexico, not Canada."

I don't think you've thought this statement out. Lol. We don't have droves of illegal immigrants coming from Canada.
---ObamasBoy on 10/30/17


It would be great to see more Taco stands. I love tacos! :)
---Loony1 on 10/30/17


"Jesus was a non-white border-crossing immigrant without paperwork. Republicans today would kick him out."
---StrongAxe on 10/30/17


Actually, Jesus was quite in favor of following the laws of the land. He even instructed His followers to pay unjust taxes to Caesar because it was the law. And He Himself, who was God, even obeyed the laws. Had he been required to have a travel visa, He would have had one. Let's not forget that Jesus was born while His family was traveling to report for the mandatory census, their equivalent to applying for legal citizenship. Jesus would tell the illegals today to come here the legal way.

BTW, Jesus was a Jew. Jews are Caucasian. The entire cast of Seinfeld were Jews.
---ObamasBoy on 10/30/17


ObamasBoy:

Trump warned of Taco stands on every corner. BOTH legal and illegal Mexicans run them. His travel bans target people from mostly black and Arab Muslim countries, even though 99.96% of Muslims are not terrorists. He wants a wall against Mexico, not Canada. What do thesehave in common? Non-whites.

Dreamers are productive non-criminial children who lived here their entire lives whose ONLY crime is their believed the American Dream but didn't file the right paperwork.

Jesus was a non-white border-crossing immigrant without paperwork. Republicans today would kick him out.

With your attitude, REALLY, Why do you call yourself "ObamasBoy" when you oppose the very things Obama stands for?
---StrongAxe on 10/30/17




StrongAxe, why do you lie? Republicans have no anti-immigration agenda. They have an anti-illegal immigration agenda. Sadly, Democrats have a pro-crimnal agenda.
---ObamasBoy on 10/30/17


Haz27:

I call out conservatives who claim to be Christians on things they ACTUALLY do and say. KKK and neo-nazis support Republican anti-immigration agendas. Republicans cut food and health programs.

You, on the other hand, use non-factual insinuations meant only to inflame, like "propaganda", "socialist", "puppet masters", "brainwashed", and attack me, personally for the things I post above. If I have targeted you personally, it's only to confront you about your own personal attacks.

You keep quoting Bezmanov like a broken record. I heard you the first dozen times.

If you truly want to abide in Christ, try insinuating less and loving more.
---StrongAxe on 10/30/17


Haz

No argument about that from me.
---Loony1 on 10/29/17


LOONY1. That thief, like all Christians, was made holy (sanctified) through Christ's sacrifice. Heb 10:10
we HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

AXE. As you always judgmentally accuse we conservatives of the same false allegations (KKK, NAZIs, taking food & medical aid from poor, etc) as Left use in their propaganda, this shows your bias, and confirms the warning from KGB Communist defector Yuri Bezmanov, that many are brainwashed.

I suggest that instead of using the victim card, its better to just debate our differences.

Christians ABIDE IN Christ (Gal 2:20, Col 3:3), and there is NO SIN in Christ (1John 3:5). You should not say there's sin in JC.

---Haz27 on 10/29/17


Haz

The thief on the cross was holy in the sense that holiness means set apart, and Jesus set him apart.
---Loony1 on 10/29/17




Haz27:

You wrote: AXE. We all can see from your PC Left attacks demonizing we Conservatives...

That you prefix almost every reply to me with "PC", "Left", "brainwashed", "totalitarian", "comrades", or other similar words speaks volumes about your bias and judgment.

This blog is about cross vs. stake. Let's get back to the topic instead of dragging every other topic into it. Feel free to create a separate blog about baby slaughter if you like.

In John 8:44, Jesus spoke scathingly to the Pharisees. 1) They claimed to be sinless holier-than-thou religious authorities. 2) He was actually sinless.

Neither of those applies to either of us here.
---StrongAxe on 10/28/17


AXE. We all can see from your PC Left attacks demonizing we Conservatives that by your own measure you are thus guilty of the judgement, condemnation you draw about Pharisees.
I suggest you avoid using the Lefts victim card tactic. It wont work here just as its now no longer as effective against society as it was over the past decades.

The sooner you stop ignoring the atrocities (especially baby slaughter) and corruption etc of your totalitarian Leftist comrades, in your constant PC attacks about the speck in the eye of Conservatives, then you might gain some credibility.

BTW, what do you think of the language Jesus used in John 8:44?

LOONY1. Do you think THIEF on cross next to Jesus, was holy?
---Haz27 on 10/28/17


Haz27:

I find fault with leaders whose actions are admittedly hypocritical (i.e. they openly boast of actions they themselves claim to abhor), not with you personally (except in this one case). You continually find fault with ME personally. THAT is the difference.
---StrongAxe on 10/28/17


Haz

Holiness:

May the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you,

so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 3:12,13
---Loony1 on 10/28/17


AXE. Considering you always judge/condemn so much through Leftist propaganda, then by your own measure you yourself are like a Pharisee.

But I prefer to use terms correctly hence I dont call you a Pharisee as they judge/condemn according to the OT works of the law. I suggest you do likewise and stop using scripture & Biblical labels out of context.

LOONY1. Holiness is due to Christ in us, Gal 2:20, Col 3:3. Do you think thief on cross was made holy in Christ?

SAMUEL. Faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Thus our works are to BELIEVE ON JESUS John 6:29. Because of our position in Christ, we cannot be charged with sin (1John3:9, Rom 8:33).
---Haz27 on 10/27/17


Haz27:

I didn't mean you were necessarily a member of the specific Jewish sect who was in power in Palestine 2000 years ago, but rather, you seem to exhibit similar attitudes - quoting this scripture or that to justify your judging or condemning others. Yes, Jesus and Paul used scripture to correct others, but you seem to use condemning language all the time.

Also, the notion that "scripture interprets scripture" is a good common-sense rule, but scripture itself never actually says that.
---StrongAxe on 10/28/17


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StrongAxe: Suspicion means "I think you are guilty, but I give you the benefit of the doubt until I have proof". Judgment means "I believe you are guilty, and will act like you are, and tell others you are".//

You have it backwards. You have NO CHOICE but to give me the benefit of the doubt since you don't have any proof when you suspecting something.

If you have PROOF you no longer suspect me of anything because you have the PROOF of my guilt thus you can JUDGE me correctly accordingly.

You just can't condemn me as the men rightly judged the adulterous women but couldn't condemn her. A difference.

In Matthew 7:1 Jesus speaks of people judging others based on suspect info. which you can't do.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/28/17


AXE. You've demonstrated here that you insist you know the meaning of scripture, so your claim that "I'm trying NOT to read meaning into scripture and assuming it says what I believe" really has no credibility.
You quote scripture out of context, misuse Biblical terms, neglect cross referencing, and routinely impose your subjective PC worldly view (eisegesis) onto scripture.

Scripture is sealed (Isaiah 29:10-12) hence natural minded persons will not understand it (1Cor 2:14, Isa 6:9,10). That's why Jesus spoke in parables (Matt 13:13,14).

But as we grow in Christ we gain spiritual understanding. JC is our teacher who reveals spiritual truths (Matt 23:8, Isa 29:18, 1John 2:27).




---Haz27 on 10/28/17


StrongAxe, the meanings of those scriptures are made clear with context when you read the surrounding chapters. Of course a single verse can be taken out of context, just as single one-line quotes are taken out of context today by media and political agitators. Which is why, whether you are referencing scripture or a political figure, the entire conversation should be looked at, not individual verses. Read the surrounding chapters of those verses you quoted and their meaning will become clear.
---ObamasBoy on 10/28/17


AXE. Scripture confirms scripture. Instead of quoting a scripture & imposing your own worldly interpretation on it (something we've all been guilty of at some stage), I suggest you do a word study cross referencing with other scriptures letting JC give you understanding.

To accuse someone of thinking like a Pharisee is to accuse them of judging/condemning under the OT law. Clearly I'm not doing that, hence your allegation is false.
We see in Bible Jesus & Paul used scripture to correct others. This too was not judging like a Pharisee either.

SAMUEL. Righteousness is by faith, Rom 4:5.
Our works are to BELIEVE ON JESUS, John 6:29.
It's JC that makes us holy, Rom 11:16. Thus thief on cross was holy.


---Haz27 on 10/27/17


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ObmasBoy:

Of course it has, but so what? How can we know that those interpretations are CORRECT? That multiple interpretations exist mean many interpretations CANNOT be correct. If ten people interpret something in ten different ways, nine of those interpretations MUST be incorrect (and possible even ten).

Yes, the Bible means what it says, but that doesn't mean WE know what that is.

What do "many are called, but few are chosen", "some will be taken, and some left", and "the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force" mean? Are these good or bad things?

I'm trying NOT to read meaning into scripture and assuming it says what I believe, like you do.
---StrongAxe on 10/27/17


StrongAxe, There is no need to interpret scripture. I believe the Bible has already been interpreted into every language commonly used today. The Bible mean exactly what it says and is not difficult to understand. What you are talking about is twisting scripture. Stop it. Quit reading into the Bible anything that is not clearly stated.
---ObamasBoy on 10/27/17


Haz27:

Yes. Your messages here are virtually always about judging and condemning others and citing scriptures to justify such judgment and condemnation - things the Pharisees were particularly good at.

How is you imposing your interpretation of scripture any different than me imposing my interpretation of scripture?
---StrongAxe on 10/27/17


Haz

Holiness should be apparent. In most cases it does not seem to be apparent.
---Loony1 on 10/27/17


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Haz we don't attain anything by our works. We live in love because we are set apart by GOD to live for him. Not live in sin.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation,

This is one of the Commands of GOD.

Agape.
---Samuelbb7 on 10/27/17


AXE. Claiming I think like Pharisees is to say I judge righteousness by works. Care to justify your allegation?

Scripture confirms scripture, thus clarifying God's message.

BUT YOU merely offer a scripture, and then impose your own worldly narrative without supporting references to other scriptures.

As for your taking 1John 1:8 out of context, you fail to acknowledge 1John 3:9 contradicts you (Christians CANNOT sin).

FYI, 1John 1:2,3 BEAR WITNESS, and DECLARE to you that eternal life.......we DECLARE to you, that you also may have fellowship

Declaring gospel to those in darkness (unbelief) 1John 1:6 is the context. It speaks to those who are like St Paul himself was before conversion. See Phil 3:6.
---Haz27 on 10/27/17


Haz27:

You wrote: I suggest you stop thinking like a natural man (1Cor 2:14)

And I suggest you stop thinking like a Pharisee.

I DO seek spiritual understanding. That we both receive different answers only means that one of us is in error - NOT necessarily that it's I who am in error.

Despite all your "without spot or wrinkle" references, also remember 1 John 1:8 (that was written by a Christian to other Christians):
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Many Christians believe they are perfect and incapable of error, and use that belief to justify all kinds of error and atrocious behavior.
---StrongAxe on 10/27/17


AXE. Your deflections will not cover for the flaws in the doctrines you follow.
I suggest you stop thinking like a natural man (1Cor 2:14).
Instead seek spiritual understanding from Christ our teacher (Matt 23:8).


LOONY1. Christians are without spot or wrinkle. We're holy and without blemish. See Eph 5:27, 2Pet 3:14.
This we attain by keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, also without spot, 1Tim 6:14.
Christians are not of the world (John 17:14) thus unspotted by it. This is due to our position in Christ (Gal 2:20, Col 3:3), and not judged by physical appearances.

But those in unbelief, rejecting the will of God (John 6:40, 1Thess 4:3) are spots and blemishes, 2Pet 2:13, Jude 12.
---Haz27 on 10/26/17


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Nicole_Lacey:

Jesus told us to be wise as serpents, but gentle as doves. Suspicion means "I think you are guilty, but I give you the benefit of the doubt until I have proof". Judgment means "I believe you are guilty, and will act like you are, and tell others you are".

No, I didn't change my tune at all. I maintained the same position both times I mentioned it. You are the one who changed position: Because Jesus didn't CARE if you knew about Him or not in regards to that hungry person.


Haz27:

Matt 26:6-11 is not related to 25.

See 7:21. Christians say "Lord Lord". Those who feed the hungry, etc. do the will of the Father. These groups overlap but are not identical.
---StrongAxe on 10/26/17


StrongAxe: Again, I don't KNOW, I SUSPECT.//

OKAY, OKAY I believe you.

I still say you are WRONG for suspecting someone.

Guilty people FIRST have to be suspected before they are arrested.

How is your 'SUSPECT' any LESS judging than anyone else???

Seriously, I truly wish to know your definition of the word 'suspect' and how it differ from 'judgement' by someone else?

I am not trying to be smart with you.

BTW, you changed you tune about the Atheist getting better treatment from God than a Christian in Matthew 25
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/26/17


AXE. Considering what Jesus said in Matt 26:6-11, are you implying that Jesus failed to live up to his own words in Matt 25?

In Matt 26, when the disciples were indignant at the woman who poured oil on Jesus, they said "Why this waste? For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor"

Jesus responded with "she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always"

So according to your doctrine Jesus didn't even live up to his own words.

I suggest you should rethink this flawed doctrine you follow on Matt 25.
---Haz27 on 10/26/17


Nobody is unspotted from the world.
---Loony1 on 10/26/17


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AXE. I'm not sure why you would ask what is the will of God when Jesus defined it clearly in John 6:40. It's confirmed also in 1Thess 4:3. Jesus even described this as the works we're to do (John 6:29).

Your reference to James 1:27 invites the question whether you're unspotted from the world?

As for Matt 25, we've discussed this before. I've already shown you from 1Cor 2:14 that you're reading scripture as a natural man would.
Jesus spoke in parables for a reason (Matt 13:13,14).

You fail to understand Matt 19 reading it as a PC natural man would.
Matt 19:21 how do we become perfect? See Heb 10:14.
Matt 22 also you read as a natural man. You might want to study as to what the lack of wedding garment symbolizes.
---Haz27 on 10/26/17


Nicole_Lacey:

Again, I don't KNOW, I SUSPECT. I'll leave it to God to judge. Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them". There have been many cases where pastors and televanglists have been caught red-handed fleecing their own flocks, and living like aristocrats (e.g. taking private jets and refusing to fly commercial). Most refuse to release their taxes, knowing their flocks would be outraged.

Because Jesus didn't CARE if you knew about Him or not in regards to that hungry person.

EXACTLY!!! Jesus rewards us based on our LOVE (the Two Commandments), NOT our adherence to any belief. He will reward compassionate atheists just as much as compassionate Christians (and those in Matthew 25 DIDN'T KNOW HIM).
---StrongAxe on 10/26/17


Haz27:

What is doing the will of God? The ONLY definition of "religion" is in James 1:27.

To many Christians, religion is like that of the Pharisees, placing high importance on correct beliefs and practices, while neglecting the above.

Matthew 25:31-46 mentions feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the sick. NOTHING else.

Read ALL of Matthew 19. It's about the rich and privileged (i.e. first) being last, and those who give up everything being first. Also Matthew 22. Invitees were rejected while people in the street (possibly homeless?) BOTH GOOD AND BAD were invited. He used the social inversion metaphor frequently.
---StrongAxe on 10/26/17


StrongAxe: I said MIGHT. Depends on circumstances.//

Still doesn't wash. Because Jesus didn't CARE if you knew about Him or not in regards to that hungry person.

He condemns both the Atheist, Buddhist, and Christian the same for NOT feeding that person.

You are placing yourself HIGHER than Jesus as a Judge in making judgements on others.

About the rich Pastor, how do you KNOW he isn't helping the poor?

Suppose he is giving 50% of his income to the poor and still has enough to have a jet and mansions but only demands 10% tithing from his flock?

He is STILL giving 5 times MORE than his sheep!

That's why Jesus said NOT to Judge Matthew 7:1

Remember Abraham was VERY RICH and still RIGHTEOUS!
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/26/17


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Jehovah Witness teach an upright stake. Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. (Numbers 21:9) Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (John 3:14) We do not have a photograph of the event and we weren't there, so we not have the advantage of seeing ourselves. May be some were crucified on a pole and others others on a cross. All is portrayal. What ever way it is portrayed: Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." (Galatians 3:13)
---mike4879 on 10/26/17


AXE. In your reference to Matt 7 about those who did great works, you fail to acknowledge that Jesus says it's those who DO THE WILL of God (Matt 7:21) who will enter His kingdom.

And the will of God is that we BELIEVE ON JESUS (John 6:40, 1Thess 4:3).

As for your reference to first and last (Matt 19:30), see this scripture about who is first and last.
1Cor 15:44-49
The FIRST man Adam became a living being. The LAST Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust, the second Man is the Lord from heaven.


---Haz27 on 10/25/17


How does it even matter whether it was a cross, a stake, or a tree? Isn't the important point that Jesus was crucified as payment for our sins?

With all the important issues there are to fight over, the battle you pick is over the geometrical shape of the cross our Savior was crucified on?
---ObamasBoy on 10/20/17

I was just thinking the same thing..
---NurseRobert on 10/25/17


AXE. Nicole is correct that the only criteria is doing the will of God the Father.

And the will of God is that we BELIEVE ON JESUS, as described in John 6:40, and 1 Thess 4:3.

We see this confirmed in Matt 25 where the sheep (Christians) preach the gospel (which is the call to mankind to do the will of God) to the lost, who are the SPIRITUALLY naked, hungry, thirsty, strangers , sick , in prison.

The goats, in contrast, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), will be sent to everlasting punishment.
These goats are professing Christians who suppress the gospel through worldly doctrines obsessing about worldly things instead.
---Haz27 on 10/25/17


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Perhaps the person walking by does not wish to contribute to the drug and alcohol problem by giving to panhandlers. Or perhaps the person walking by isn't gullible enough to buy into the whole "homeless" panhandling scheme.
---ObamasBoy on 10/25/17


Nicole_Lacey:

I said MIGHT. Depends on circumstances.

If pastor has a jet and two mansions, and demands his flock give him 10% of income, yet doesn't help the poor - I have serious doubts.

I didn't say Christians in general - just ONE hypothetical person who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

Matthew 25 judges SOLELY by whether they fed the hungry,. NOT what they believed. Sheep don't understand - they're either not Christians, or biblically illiterate. Elsewhere, he rejects those who say "we did great works in your name?" - Christians.

He says first will be last and last first - those who think they have no hope may be saved, while self-righteous who believe they are saved will not.
---StrongAxe on 10/25/17


StrongAxe: No, but if I see someone walk by a hungry person and do nothing, I might question if he is a Christian.//

WHY?

Would you be sinning? Matthew 7:1

Suppose the person passing by is ALSO hungry?

That's why Jesus said NOT to judge. Plus, you would be wrong because all data shows that Christians feed the hungry more than any other group including the Government.

//At the Final Judgment, Atheists who give will be treated better than Christians who don't (Matthew 25).//

WHAT?

What Bible are you reading?

They will be TREATED the same! The only criteria in Matthew 25 is if they did the Master's Will or not.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/25/17


//It was Steveng who first brought this up//- strongaxe.

Yes, but it is only you who choke on what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Your first 2 posts on this blog show you gagging on what JW's believe. So what if they are different to you... wow it would be a dull world if it were only filled with strongaxes'.

I only posted on this blog to challenge your view of JW's. In your own mind you are fixated about JW's view of the cross. Why do you care whether JW's use the cross or not? Does the fact JW's do not use the cross threaten your belief? Its no big deal to JW's what Jesus died on. JW's do not use the cross because they follow the Bible at 1Cor.10:14, and because the cross pre-dates Jesus and has only been used by false religion.
---David8318 on 10/25/17


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ObamasBoy:

You wrote: If your mouth is spewing hatred, lies, and liberalism, that is because you do not have a concerted heart.

Note that the Bible mentions "liberal" in several places, and in almost all of them, it is in a GOOD way.

As far as hatred goes, look carefully at these blogs and see WHO has been posting most personal attacks against other people on these blogs recently. It certainly hasn't been I.


Nicole_Lacey:

No, but if I see someone walk by a hungry person and do nothing, I might question if he is a Christian.

At the Final Judgment, Atheists who give will be treated better than Christians who don't (Matthew 25).
---StrongAxe on 10/25/17


StrongAxe, you can also know if a person is a Christian by the things that they condone and support. Also by the things they say. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.". If your mouth is spewing hatred, lies, and liberalism, that is because you do not have a concerted heart. If you condone ungodly behavior and practices, then according to the Bible, you are as guilty of those behaviors as the person carrying out those acts. If you vote pro-choice, or don't vote pro-life, then according to the Bible, you are guilty of the abortion yourself.
---ObamasBoy on 10/25/17


StrongAxe: People should know we are Christians by how we act, not by symbols we display on our homes, persons, and cars. The latter can be faked. The former cannot.//

Nooo, speak for yourself and ONLY yourself.

Are you saying if you see a person feeding a hungry person they are Christian?

Giving a person a dollar bill he has to be a Christian. Because Lord knows ONLY His Children donates.

Hindus, Atheists, Mislims, Buddhists and non-Christians do not behave like Christians?

People don't know who are Christians unless they can find the symbols on their persons or in their homes.

They only know we are Christian when we are doing something good when we have a Christian symbol on us or surroundings us.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/25/17


David8318:

It was Steveng who first brought this up. I have no idea why, since he has not spoken since.

The only reason why anyone would bring this topic up is if it is imporant to them - as to JWs, and pretty much nobody else. So one must ask why. I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.

It is also curious that, on all CN blogs, you only comment on ones where JWs have a markedly different theological position than everyone else, as if you have no interest in the 99% of things that unify us, just the 1% of things that divide us. Why is that?


ObamasBoy:

People should know we are Christians by how we act, not by symbols we display on our homes, persons, and cars. The latter can be faked. The former cannot.
---StrongAxe on 10/25/17


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//make such a deal out of it//- strongaxe.

It was you who first posted on this subject 10/19/17 castigating JW's for suggesting JW's produce pictures of Jesus on an upright stake... "They keep insisting Jesus did not die on a cross" was your contention.

Why do you make such a big deal out of it? Why does it matter to YOU so much what JW's believe? I wouldn't have posted here if it hadn't been for you stomping all over JW belief's as if you're the 'be all and end all' on these matters. If you and yours want to worship a cross- go ahead. I don't care, and it makes no difference to me what Jesus died on.

You have a blind arrogance which leads you to a conceited view of other peoples belief's and opinions.
---David8318 on 10/24/17


As I have frequently said, I know StrongAxe personally. He is one of my best friends.

We may not always see eye to eye either politically or theologically, but I can assure you he IS a Christian and prays for me when I ask for a special intention.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/24/17


StrongAxe

You are certainly under attack by a lot of fanatical people. If I were experiencing the same thing, I would just ignore them and not respond.
---Loony1 on 10/24/17


It's not surprising that StrongAxe would avoid symbols that might identify him as a Christian. Since, given his politics and beliefs, his circles are likely comprised of people that hate Jesus and Christians.

To be honest, us Christians are grateful for his aversion to Christian symbols, as we prefer that people who spew such perversion and lies not publicly identify as Christian. What an awful mis-representation of Christianity that would be! It's best for the Kingdom that only real Christians profess to be one.

And can you imagine how ridiculous and confusing that would be to see a Jesus fish or a cross right next to His "Bernie 2016" and "coextist" bumper stickers?
---ObamasBoy on 10/24/17


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David8318:

As I previously stated, I don't care one way or other. I tend to be an iconclast, so I don't litter my house with crosses, icons, altars, WWJD bumper stickers, Jesus fish, and other quasi-Christian kitsch. I'm quite heterodox in several areas (ask Haz27, Nicole_Lacey and ObamasBoy).

However, JWs in general and YOU in particular, make such a deal out of it. Why is that? Instead of answering my question, you accuse me of something I had previously already dismissed.

If JWs teach the truth, why is it that almost all other Christians on the planet have it wrong, and have had it wrong for millenia? Does God care so little for his people that he would allow almost all of them to be deluded almost all of the time?
---StrongAxe on 10/23/17


Just because something comes from paganism does not mean it is necessarily a bad thing. But is not good to worship pagan gods or be polytheists. There are some people who claim to be Christian who are polytheists. Some believe that human beings can become gods eventually. Others believe that Jesus was a kind of second god, based on their misunderstanding of the first chapter of John's gospel.
---Loony1 on 10/23/17


//Why does a traditional cross THREATEN their beliefs//- strongaxe.

More to the point, strongaxe is threatened or perhaps frightened that his beloved cross is in fact false, and from pagan sources.

It would be expensive for strongaxe to remove the cross from his private collection, or to pull down crosses from his churches or remove the idols from inside. The realisation that the implement used to kill Christ could be something other than a cross is too uncomfortable for strongaxe to consider.

JW's on the other hand are not bound by false dogma as is strongaxe who must perpetuate the false religious idol that is the cross. Strongaxe is gagging on JW belief's because he knows JW's teach the truth.
---David8318 on 10/23/17


//It doesn't matter to ME//- strongaxe.

Oh yes it does! You cannot conceive of any other possibility other than that with which you have been conditioned to believe- that Jesus died on a cross. You are a small pawn in a much bigger pagan picture strongaxe. You tow the pagan party line and you're good at it.

I agree with you on John 20:25. As I've said, 2 nails could have been used to pin Jesus' hands above his head. They obviously used one nail for his feet which were likely overlapping eachother. So it is also possible they did the same with his hands above his head, and used one nail for his overlapping hands.

But you cannot reason this way because you are not allowed to "think outside the pagan box".
---David8318 on 10/23/17


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David8318:

Thomas wrote "the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were". This is very common use of language (whether Greek or English or any other) - the first part refers to something, and the second part gives further clarification about what was said in the first part.

It doesn't matter to ME. *I* don't consider it an important theological point just what kind of cross or stake or whatever it was. However, it DOES seem to be a CRUCIAL matter to the Jehovah's Witnesses, and one can only ask WHY they care about it SO much. Why does a traditional cross THREATEN their beliefs.

(And I'm still waiting for Steveng to say even a single word on a topic of his own creation.)
---StrongAxe on 10/22/17


\\//neither Strong nor Vines have had the last work about Greek Lexicography// -Cluny.

Neither has your Un-orthodox crowd.
---David8318 on 10/22/17\\

As a matter of fact, we do have the last word. Our Typical Books, such as for the Services, are in Greek, regardless of the local liturgical language.

Patristic and Liturgical Greek is different from Attic or even Koine. Many words, such as STAVROS, have additional meanings in P/L Greek.

You mentioned Liddell (father of the historical Alike in Wonderland) and Scott's magnum opus. But did you know there is a SUPPLEMENT by later scholars giving the special meanings words have in PATRISTIC Greek?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/22/17


//"where the nails were" refers to the nail marks in the hands//- strongaxe.

Really? Are you sure? You forget they also nailed his feet. But I agree, 2 nails could have been used to impale his hands above his head on the stouros ['torture stake']. But they could have used one nail by overlapping the hands and hammering that one nail through both hands. Whether they used 2 nails, or one nail to impale his hands, Thomas is correct in asking to see "the nail marks in his hands".

I've said it before- the implement used is irrelevant. But to strongaxe it does matter because he must worship the false religious cross. Believing there were less than 3 nails eliminates his cross- which could be expensive for him.
---David8318 on 10/22/17


//neither Strong nor Vines have had the last work about Greek Lexicography// -Cluny.

Neither has your Un-orthodox crowd.
---David8318 on 10/22/17


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David8318:

In "the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were", "where the nails were" refers to the nail marks in the hands. The pictures show two nails (one in hands and one in feet), but only ONE in the hands, contradicting Thomas.

The reason I bring it up is because JW's choke on the gnat about just what kind of device Jesus was crucified on (and really, why is that SO important), yet their very argument to try to prove this is flawed.
---StrongAxe on 10/22/17


//NIV - Where the NAILS were//

To me [and others] Thomas wanted to see the nail marks in Jesus' hands and feet- "the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were" [NIV].

//OWN tracts show one nail used//

No they show at least 2 nails- 1 for the hands and 1 for the feet. It could have been one nail through both hands- Thomas asked to see, "the nail marks in his hands". One nail through both overlapping hands above his head would have made "nail marks".

The number of nails used is only relevant to ones like strongaxe who perpetuate the false religious symbol of the cross, and must dogmatically believe it could not have been less than 3 nails.
---David8318 on 10/21/17


David, neither Strong nor Vines have had the last work about Greek Lexicography.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/17


David8318:

You wrote: Obviously more than 1 nail was used to impale Jesus on whatever was used to kill him.

Your OWN Jehovah's Witnesses' OWN tracts show one nail used to attempt to prove this very point. Thomas's statement indicates that at least HE knew multiple nails were used. Apparently, they didn't read very carefully.

NIV - Where the NAILS were.
---StrongAxe on 10/21/17


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//STAVROS means Cross//- Cluny.

According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, [stouros G4716]:

"From the base of histemi, a stake or post (as set upright)..."

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

"Noun, G4716, stauros: denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake."

A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xylon: "piece of wood, log, beam, post... stake on which criminals were impaled" (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191).

JW's have every right to translate stouros as 'torture stake'. Cluny's Un-orthodox group holds to "cross" purely because it perpetuates a false religious symbol.
---David8318 on 10/21/17


//John 20:25 "except I shall see in his hands the print of the NAILS..."//

Obviously more than 1 nail was used to impale Jesus on whatever was used to kill him. But the scriptures do not state how specifically Jesus' hands were impaled. His hands could have overlapped eachother above his head and one nail driven through both at the same time. Or both hands could have had a nail each to impale him on the torture stake. These details are irrelevant.

Thomas' full quote at John 20:25 says: "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." [NIV]

Jesus' hands & feet were nailed. Of course more than one nail was used.
---David8318 on 10/21/17


''Something Cluny's apostate Un-orthodox church refutes because it believes Jesus is "God" who cannot die.
''

Wrong again, David, as you are in EVERYTHING you say about the Orthodox Church.

We never taught and never believed that Jesus did not die.

If you are going to criticize Orthodoxy, then criticize what we really believe, not slander you've made up out of your own head.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/21/17


ObamasBoy:

It doesn't, and shouldn't matter to most people.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are iconclasts. They deliberately set out to separate themselves from the main body of Christianity whom they call apostate, and to do this, they feel it necessary to redefine almost every term and convention. They want to have nothing to do with the church or any terms associated with the church. Instead of church, they say kingdom hall. Instead of bishop they say overseer. Instead of cross they say torture stake. Instead of Lord they say Jehovah. Instead of excommunicate they say disfellowship.
---StrongAxe on 10/20/17


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No, it doesn't matter how Jesus died. The point is Jesus died. Jesus' death is pivotal for our salvation. Something Cluny's apostate Un-orthodox church refutes because it believes Jesus is "God" who cannot die.

The cross as a symbol of worship pre-dates Jesus Christ. The pagan Egyptians used the cross as a fertility symbol. The Babylonians used the cross or Tau ("T") as a religious symbol for their false god "Tammuz". The cross is the religious symbol of false religion- not the implement used to kill Jesus.

Using the cross, Cluny's Un-orthodox crowd perpetuate the false religious symbol used by pagans long before Jesus came and died for us.

The implement used to kill Jesus is irrelevant.
---David8318 on 10/20/17


How does it even matter whether it was a cross, a stake, or a tree? Isn't the important point that Jesus was crucified as payment for our sins?

With all the important issues there are to fight over, the battle you pick is over the geometrical shape of the cross our Savior was crucified on?
---ObamasBoy on 10/20/17


StrongAxe & Cluny

Good points!
---Loony1 on 10/19/17


This is an issue Jehovah's Witnesses love to bring up. They keep insisting Jesus did not die on a cross, but on an upright stake. I'm curious why Steveng brings it up. (Both Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists evolved from one common group - the Millerites, but I'm not sure how many common beliefs they share.)

In crucifixion on a stake, both hands are crossed above the head and a single nail is driven through both wrists. Web search images of crucixion on a stake, especially on Jehovah's Witnesses own sites.

This would contradict Thomas's claim in John 20:25 "except I shall see in his hands the print of the NAILS, and put my finger into the print of the NAILS..." where he refers to multiple nails, not one.
---StrongAxe on 10/19/17


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Is this a new doctrine of the worldly denominational "church" of Steveng?

STAVROS means Cross. XyLOS means wood or tree.

My understanding is that the Romans would leave an upright (or more than one), called STIPES, at the place of execution, and the condemned person would carry the PATIBULUM, or crossbar, to be stretched out thereon.

Jehovah's false witnesses are wrong in saying that Jesus was nailed with His hands above His head.

And even if they were right, isn't that just a life-changing doctrine? Doesn't that factoid encourage you to seek more holiness and a deeper prayer life?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/19/17


The symbol of the cross comes from the Hebrew letter 'TAV' or Tau in Greek. 'T' that looks like a cross.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/18/17


I'm wondering, why is this important?
---Loony1 on 10/17/17


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