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Rich Man Lazarus

Some people say that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a real event, while others say it is a parable. I would like to hear your different views on this subject.

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 ---Loony1 on 10/19/17
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Loony1 said, "You make a good point. I'm not so sure that the Lazarus and this Parable is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead."

They are NOT! The name Lazarus was, in Judea in 30 A.D. a common name. You can even see that today among Orthodox Jews, where Lazar is a good name. And haven't you heard of Lazar Wolfe in "Fiddler on the Roof?" Lazarus was a common name, like Benjamin is today.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/15/17


A cursory study of the original Greek shows that the "body" spoken of in this context is the carnal nature...
---Jerry6593 on 11/13/17

Wow!.

I would not like your Greek class. The word "body" in 2 Cor 5:8 is "somatos" used in the LXX for a corpse, used in the NT for the body of men and animals, and used by Homer and in other Classical Greek writings for a dead body or corpse.

I think the word you are referring to is sarx, or "flesh" in English.

And the context of 2 Cor. 5:8 is verse 1, in which the Apostle Paul talked about this "earthly tent". Also in verse 6, Paul mentions that while we are in this earthly body, we are absent from the Lord.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/13/17


josef: You are quite right to point out that, contrary to the beliefs of some here, Jesus considered Lazarus death as "sleep" and that "the dead in Christ shall rise first". It is also informative that "the rest of the dead LIVED not again until the thousand years were finished".


Mark E: "Hmm, absent from the body. A concept you do not accept!"

Right, and neither does the Bible. A cursory study of the original Greek shows that the "body" spoken of in this context is the carnal nature - as in contradistinction to being "in Christ".



---Jerry6593 on 11/13/17


Strongaxe, Mark Eaton, as concerning the resurrection of Lazarus, Jesus said, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." As concerning the dead, It is written that they "sleep in Jesus". And that "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [or precede] them which are asleep." For "the dead in Christ shall rise first."
---josef on 11/12/17


Mark_Eaton:

Yes, I know some groups believe in Soul Sleep. The Bible doesn't say Lazarus said anything about his experience, but it also doesn't say he said nothing either. It's silent about the subject. One can't infer anything from silence unless the silence is deliberately conspicuous.

I said earlier that just because the Bible doesn't mention something doesn't mean it didn't happen, just the authors didn't think it was important. The Bible almost never mentions women except if they're specifically important to the plot. Before the Flood, only 8 women were mentioned: Eve, Noah's wife, his sons' wives, Cain's wife, and Lamech's two wives. Many more men were mentioned, and most had wives, most of which were not mentioned.
---StrongAxe on 11/11/17




Yes, because the story of Lazarus was very specifically about a flesh and blood resurrection
---StrongAxe on 11/9/17

Perhaps I am missing the point of this dialog.

The lack of testimony by Lazarus was significant to Jerry, Samuel, etc. because they believe in the theory of Soul Sleep. The body asleep in the grave and the soul asleep with the body.

I do not agree with this theory and believe that our soul goes to God after death.

Lazarus did not testify to any visions of God or heaven after death, seemingly confirming the theory of Soul Sleep.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/10/17


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: You are speaking of flesh and blood when talking about the resurrection.

Yes, because the story of Lazarus (the one Mary and Martha were related to) was very specifically about a flesh and blood resurrection - something that was totally unheard of until then (except for one incident in the O.T. where a dead man was buried with Elisha's bones).

"Being with the Lord in Spirit after we die" is totally distinct from the resurrection.

Lazarus and the rich man were not resurrected, but that was a totally different Lazarus.
---StrongAxe on 11/9/17


There is ample evidence that Martha, Lazarus' sister, did not expect her brother to be raised until the resurrection at the second coming at the last day...
---Jerry6593 on 11/4/17

You are speaking of flesh and blood when talking about the resurrection.

The point you disagree on is: are we with the lord in Spirit after we die?

St. Paul seemed to think so. He said he was "willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

Hmm, absent from the body. A concept you do not accept! Yet, it is clearly in Scripture. Jesus even elaborates on it in our Lazarus passage. Neither Lazarus or the Rich Man was resurrected. But Jesus says they were talking and hearing.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/6/17


FWIW, this was our Gospel reading yesterday.

Liturgical protocol has it announced, "The Lord told this parable."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/17


"I guess the author didn't think it was important enough to mention one way or other.---StrongAxe on 11/3/17"
If life after death was being referenced by the parable, his testimony would have been priceless concerning that. Personally I don't think he or anyone else could have kept the spender of "paradise" to themselves. And if they shared it, someone, would have written about it.
---joseph on 11/5/17




Mark E: There is ample evidence that Martha, Lazarus' sister, did not expect her brother to be raised until the resurrection at the second coming at the last day, as:

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


---Jerry6593 on 11/4/17


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: However, do you think the priests would want to kill Lazarus for simply being alive?

Yes, because as long as Lazarus was alive and breathing, he was living proof that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and they couldn't allow that.

There is no evidence that Lazarus said anything, but there is also no evidence that he DIDN'T say anything. Like most things, the Bible is silent on the matter. I guess the author didn't think it was important enough to mention one way or other.
---StrongAxe on 11/3/17


If Lazarus had been to heaven. Then forced to return back here to earth. I am pretty sure he would have been very unhappy.

Jesus said Lazarus is sleeping.

Now to me the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The people seem to have bodies. But the bodies are in the grave so no bodies. If no bodies how can they feel pain or touch water.
If you are on fire you cannot talk. Nor one a single drop of water help.

So parable.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/3/17


was evidence of the power of Jesus to raise the dead, without Lazarus having to say anything about what happened to him.
---StrongAxe on 11/2/17

I agree.

However, do you think the priests would want to kill Lazarus for simply being alive?

Our SDA friends would have us believe Lazarus did not say anything because He was asleep. Yet, nothing being recorded from Lazarus is not evidence or proof of this.

I have offered just as much evidence that Lazarus was saying things. The priests wanted to kill Lazarus for possibly speaking heresy.

Who knows? Both Jerry and I are reading INTO the Bible in this passage.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/17


Richard

Lazarus ended up dying twice! That is, unless he's still alive.
---Loony1 on 11/3/17


Why are some on CN confusing the poor Lazarus fella with the Lazarus fella who Jesus raised from the dead that lived in Bethany with his two sisters?
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/3/17


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Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men Once to die then the Judgement,

( Last day: ------> Of the World, and return of Christ ? or At time of a person death ? )

Romans 6,23 - For the wages of sin is death : But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ ,

Romans 8,10 - And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin: but the spirit is Life because of righteousness.

John 3:26 - He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him.

( I believe - Luke 16 - Is The Only Place : In the Bible that a man is conscious in hell , and it is a parable, )
---RichardC on 11/2/17


Mark_Eaton:

Lazarus merely being alive after many had already seen him dead was evidence of the power of Jesus to raise the dead, without Lazarus having to say anything about what happened to him.
---StrongAxe on 11/2/17


Mark E: Lazarus gave no testimony about his experience while dead. No trip to Abraham's bosom. No talking with people in a burning hell. Only the praise of the resurrecting Jesus. The same as we will experience "at the last day" in the resurrection of the dead.


---Jerry6593 on 11/2/17


Good advice from Ecclesiastes:

"What I have seen to be good and fitting is to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil with which one toils under the sun the few days of his life which God has given him, for this is his lot."

Ecclesiastes 5:18
---Loony1 on 11/1/17


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His lack of testimony comports with the wisdom of Solomon...Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
---Jerry6593 on 11/1/17

I would disagree with you.

John goes on to tell of Lazarus later in John 12:9-11, that many Jews came to Jesus because of Lazarus and that the chief priests were wanting to kill Lazarus as well as Jesus.

Kill Lazarus for what, being alive?

No, I think they wanted to kill Lazarus for his testimony about Jesus, which must have been heresy in their opinion. His testimony must have shown that Jesus gave him life, as only God can give life.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/1/17


Bryan it is my belief that Abraham' Bosom is simply a metaphor used to describe being brought into an intimate relationship with the Father through a faith displayed by faithful Abraham, the father of faith, as a partaker of the Father's promise of salvation. I see it as simply a figure of speech that Jesus used to designate a state of comfort, safety, and security in the salvation the Father offers through Him.
---Josef on 11/1/17


While the Lazarus of the parable is not necessarily the resurrected Lazarus (since Lazarus was a common name at the time), they are connected in that the resurrected Lazarus had experienced death and gave no account of it. His lack of testimony comports with the wisdom of Solomon:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing


---Jerry6593 on 11/1/17


\\You make a good point. I'm not so sure that the Lazarus and this Parable is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
---Loony1 on 10/29/17\\

They are not. Lazarus of the story, if he is a real person, is NOT the same as Lazarus of the Four Days, as the Orthodox distinguishes him.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/31/17


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All of you

Interesting answers.
---Loony1 on 10/31/17


What exactly is Abraham's bosom?
---Loony1 on 10/20/17

Our Jewish friends have a history of Sheol being subterranean and divided between the righteous and unrighteous.

Sheol contained both Paradise and a place for the unrighteous dead. Abraham was the keeper of Paradise, much as we think that St. Peter is the gatekeeper of the Pearly Gates.

Abraham's Bosom is a term used loosely to describe Paradise contained in Sheol.

But we now know that Paradise has moved and is in the Heavens:

2 Cor. 12:3-4 "And I know how such a man, whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows, was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/31/17


"What exactly is Abraham's bosom?"
---Loony1 on 10/20/17


to me, from early on, it was simply fathers heart.

Abraham being referred to as "father Abraham", and bosom being : a person's chest when thought of as the place where secret thoughts and feelings are kept or (of a friend) close or intimate. Also, enclose.
---Chria9396 on 10/31/17


Loonie1 asked Mark "What exactly is Abraham's bosom?" Bill gave what I consider a practical answer to this question. I didn't understand Cluny's. Are there any others out there. I know Jesus didn't just use words without meaning even when offering a parable. I've heard it was a reference to paradise, my question is why He didn't just make that plain? He had no problem using the word when addressing the thief.
---bryan on 10/31/17


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Jerry

You make a good point. I'm not so sure that the Lazarus and this Parable is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
---Loony1 on 10/29/17


Loony: I think that Samuel is right when he says "Most people ignore the true point of the parable."

It is found at the end of the story:

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As it turns out, a Lazarus had risen from the dead apparently with NOTHING to report.


---Jerry6593 on 10/29/17


Interesting question.
Never really thought about it much, but after reading through the story, it appears to support what Cluny said about being in Limbo.

I have always subscribed to the Catholic view of Limbo, which best explains the Absent from the Body Present with the Lord teaching, in light of what (Revelation 20:4-5) teaches us.

Plus the fact the request is made to Father Abraham and not God the Father.
---David on 10/28/17


It is a parable, I would say, but Jesus is talking about spiritual realities.

About "Abraham's bosom" > if we are of faith we are sons and daughters of faithful Abraham. So, we can be in his bosom, I consider, by having faith which Abraham has had, in his heart.
---Bill on 10/23/17


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Cluny

The whole story seems like a metaphor to me.
---Loony1 on 10/22/17


To make a parable like the rich man and Lazarus. Sure he could make up a place. Since it would be impossible for all the righteous dead to be laying on one man's chest. The Idea is the relationship.

Also when did ghosts get to drink water provided by the ghost finger of a different ghost?

Most people ignore the true point of the parable. Being rich or poor does not make you saved or lost. Indifference to other however will.
Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 10/22/17


\\Mark

What exactly is Abraham's bosom?
---Loony1 on 10/20/17\\

What Roman Catholic theology once called "Limbo of the Righteous Fathers/Limbus Patrum."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/22/17


Mark

What exactly is Abraham's bosom?
---Loony1 on 10/20/17


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The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a real event, while others say it is a parable.
---Loony1 on 10/19/17

Either way, do you think Jesus would refer to a place called "Abraham's bosom" if it were incorrect and he made it up?

It would be like a Christian talking about someone who died and was taken to Vulkan (the planet Spock was from) instead of heaven.

I do not believe Jesus would refer to the afterlife incorrectly or dishonestly.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/20/17


Either way, this story is true.

The important thing is the punch line: If they won't believe Moses and the prophets, they won't believe even if someone were to come back from the dead.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/20/17


The rich man and Lazarus was a parable. How do I know? Because when the parable was uttered Jesus was responding directly to the Pharisees. And as it is written "without a parable spake he not unto them." Why? " Because it is given unto you [his disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Why? Next 4 verses Mat 13:12-15 It was only after finishing the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that He again spoke directly to His disciples.
---josef on 10/20/17


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