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Under The Law Of Tithing

Tithing is Gods Law, but most, who believe they are required to keep this Law, do not believe they are under Gods Laws. Can one of you who Believe you are not under the Law, please explain why your under the Law of Tithing?

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 ---David on 11/4/17
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//Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel and gave to a people who would produce fruit. Matt 21:41-46....
What Nation do you suppose he was speaking of?
---michael_e on 11/22/17

He is referring to divorced/put away Northern House of Israel. See Jer 3, Judah was not divorced.
See 1Kings 9 for the split. See Heb 8:8/Jer 31:21 for the reunion/remarriage by covenant. The House of Israel "and" Judah.
The "Two Sticks". Eze_37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, write upon it, For Judah,...then take another stick, write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, for all the house of Israel ...:
Eze_37:17 join them one to another into one stick, they shall become one in thine hand.
---Trav on 12/15/17


David, that is so true. I will have to go and study the 7 seals again so that I can correctly understand and explain them. Thanks.
---barb on 11/25/17


David, I got that wrong. The 3rd seal is the judgment of the 144,000 after which they are sealed and the four winds are released.
---barb


Barb
The book of Revelation, without spiritual guidance, is like putting together a picture puzzle, without having the picture. So you are going to be wrong more than you are going to be right. Been there, still doing that.
---David on 11/25/17


David, I got that wrong. The 3rd seal is the judgment of the 144,000 after which they are sealed and the four winds are released.
---barb on 11/24/17


David, my understanding is that six of the seals are for the judgment of the 144,000 and it is not until the censor is thrown down to earth that the seven trumpets begin which are judgments for the world, redemptive trumpets during which there is still time to repent.

Why would the angels in Rev 7 hold back the four winds until the 144,000 are sealed if they are finished their work? How could the judgments, 7 trumpets of God hurt them before their sealing if they are dead? I believe they will be witnesses for Jesus during the 7 trumpets and bring in the great multitude for God.

Rev 7:9-17 may be a preview of the fruit brought in by the 144,000 therefore showing their right to be sealed.
---barb on 11/24/17




They are the fruits brought in by the 144,000 whose righteous acts are their fine linen, clean and white. Rev. 19:7-8.---barb

Barb
That sounds plausible, and I like your thought process, but the opening of the seven seals in (Revelation 6), is the heavenly account of the Great Tribulation Period which takes place here on Earth. Given sequentially.

And according to (Revelation 7:3-8), the 144,000 are not sealed until after the Great Tribulation period had ended.

Also, I am glad you alerted me to the fact the12 tribes named in Revelation are a bit different from the ones in the Old Testament. Never caught that.
---David on 11/24/17


As Jesus in Matt 19 speaks to the pharisees, he speaks of the believing Nation of Israel.
God has gone on record in the Bible as covenanting with only one Nation.
(Psalm 33:12)
To find out the blessed and chosen nation we need to skip to the end of Psalm to find out (Psalm 135:4 Psalm 147:19-20)
Gods covenants were always made with Israel. It is doctrinally devious to usurp the unique position of Israel, created by God, for a nation created merely by men.
It's common for evangelicals to call America the my people in 2 Chron. 7:14, and make the church today the holy nation of 1 Peter 2:9 and Exodus 19:6.
---michael_e on 11/23/17


David, the numberless, great multitude come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:13-17, Rev. 15:1-5. They are the bride of the Lamb. They are the fruits brought in by the 144,000 whose righteous acts are their fine linen, clean and white. Rev. 19:7-8.

The 144,000 are the first fruits which means there must be more fruit to come. They are the first to be harvested from the earth. They are the first to enter into the kingdom and be sealed with their Father's name.
---barb on 11/23/17


Yes, the 144,000 will be killed for their testimony...---barb on 11/22/17

Barb
I believe you may be getting those killed during the tribulation period confused with the 144,000. Please note in the below verse, the Great Multitude no man could Number.
How could these folks, not numbered, be the 144,000 who are numbered?

(Revelation 7:9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands
---David on 11/23/17


Michael e, according to Rev. 5:9-10, He is speaking about those He purchased with His blood from all tribes, tongues, people and nations. In Rev. 14, we see they are His first fruits with no lie in their mouth for they are without fault before the throne of God.

He is speaking about those in Revelation 12:17 born of the Holy Spirit.
---barb on 11/23/17




David, John the Baptist said that God could raise up children to Abraham from stones. John 3:7-10. The 144,000 in Rev. 7 have almost the same names as the tribes in Genesis 49 but they are not the same people. They will be living human beings from all nations, all people and some will be Jews and some will be Gentiles.

We see in Rev. 14:4-5 a description of why they have been sealed on their foreheads with the seal of God. Compare Rev. 5:9-10 with Rev. 14 to see the similarities. Yes, the 144,000 will be killed for their testimony but look at the fruit they produce, the great multitude they bring into the kingdom, the bride of the Lamb. Rev. 7:12-17, Rev 19:6-9.
---barb on 11/22/17


//Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel and gave to a people who would produce fruit. Matt 21:41-46.//
The verse says"The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
What Nation do you suppose he was speaking of?
---michael_e on 11/22/17


David, how can anyone who does not believe in Jesus, be beheaded for being a witness to Him?-Barb

You misunderstood what I said.
You must be killed, because you believe in Jesus Christ, to be in the 1000 year reign with him.

The 144,000 are God's kingdom on earth purchased from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. Rev. 5:9-10.---barb

If the 144,000 are from every nation, why does the Bible specifically say in (Revelation 7:4), they taken from the twelve tribes of Israel?
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
---David on 11/22/17


David, how can anyone who does not believe in Jesus, be beheaded for being a witness to Him?

Jesus took the kingdom away from Israel and gave to a people who would produce fruit. Matt 21:41-46. Do you think Jesus made a mistake? The 144,000 are God's kingdom on earth purchased from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. Rev. 5:9-10.
---barb on 11/21/17


(Revelation 20) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Kathryn
Notice in the above verses, believing in Jesus Christ is not the requirement to be in the 1st resurrection, but it is dying because of this belief.
In accordance with verse 5, Do you agree?
---David on 11/21/17


David, Yes Rev is difficult. But if the 1st Resurrection is the translation of the church...1st Corinthians 15 at the end, it's hard to understand why some believe it means second chances, and that the church too would not be resurrected in the first resurrection. Also scripture says those who have part in the 1 ST Resurrection will not see the second death....meaning it's not about second chances, but reward of eternal life. You want to give certain folks in Israel ONLY who rejected the Gospel that was announced in Genesis cart blanch eternal life before they even accept or reject truth? Never heard that one before. Since God is not a REPSECTOR of persons, why not every human who has never heard the gospel?
---kathr4453 on 11/20/17


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David, I'm not sure I understood you. Are you saying the 144,000 in Rev 9 are resurrected Israel being given a second chance? ---kathr4453

Kathryn
Revelation is a very hard book to understand, and it can not be understood without the Holy Spirit to guide us through it.

The Holy Spirit has taught me just enough, it to warn folks who believe in a pre-trib rapture. But as for the rest, without the Holy Spirit, for me its like putting together a 144,000 piece puzzle in the dark.

This topic was started about tithing and somehow ended up in Revelation. So in the little dabbling Ive done recently, yes I think this piece might fit.
---David on 11/19/17


David said (To Cluny) "Cluny When I did an internet search, I read the Orthodox Church does expect a tithe, perhaps yours does not."

David, I know a lot about the Orthodox Church. Trust me, a lot of the priests have to take secular jobs to support themselves.

The Orthodox Church does not DEMAND a tithe. We are under grace, and not law. The Orthodox Church REQUESTS as much as you are able to give, but does NOT demand 10%.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/18/17


Monk, not sure what you are saying. I think David and I both agree those that have NOT the seal are tormented for 5 months. Those tormented are more than likely tormented hoping they will repent. They are given how many opportunities to repent? Even the two witnesses give opportunity to repent, and NO ONE repents. Scary! Even as far as Rev 17-18.. COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM..again another opportunity to repent....

David, I'm not sure I understood you. Are you saying the 144,000 in Rev 9 are resurrected Israel being given a second chance? Scripture says it is appointed for man to ONCE DIE or die ONCE and then the JUDGEMENT...not 2nd opportunity.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/17


David, continuing of your last point. There are no exceptions of any 144000 Jews who never had an opportunity to know Jesus, or even hear about him. Please tell me WHEN this was suppose to have happened. All the way up to Jesus death and resurrection.the Jews were promised the Messiah. THEY REJECTED The Promised one. No one was excluded from that knowledge. After Jesus death and resurrection.....EVERYONE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/17


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Kathr, in commenting on Revelation, you quoted Rev 9:4-5, and pointed out but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads And to them it was given, that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:

Guess what? You've missed a word. Here is the verse again, but only those men which have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads And to them it was given, that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:

If they have not the seal, that means that they DON'T have the seal, not that they do. In reading the KJV, you have to pay close attention to the sequence of words.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/17/17


You asked, why won't the 144,000 also be raptured? I believe those saved during the great Tribulation, will be those who will be alive in their human flesh during the 1000 year reign.Kathryn

Kathryn
I believe we are on the same page here, with this one addition. I believe the 144,000 are not raptured when Jesus comes in (Matthew 24), but the twelve tribes of Israel which will number 144,000, are being brought back to life.

The best I can figure, as to why God chooses 144,000 folks from the twelve tribes of Israel, folks who never had the opportunity to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, is to give them the opportunity to repent and be saved. The twelve tribes of Israel will be given a 1000 Years.
---David on 11/18/17


David, I corrected because I didn't proof-read. You asked, why won't the 144,000 also be raptured? I believe those saved during the great Tribulation, will be those who will be alive in their human flesh during the 1000 year reign. I believe the Church ...which will be translated out and return with Christ at the 2nd Coming ( the rapture is not the 2nd coming) will be in their Glorified bodies who will reign and rule with Christ during that time. There are many promises to this.

If anyone thinks the Church is going to reign OVER anyone in Heaven, that's strange, since 1st Cor 15 state AFTER Jesus Reigns that ALL will be delivered up to the Father that He may be all in all. No one is going to rule over anyone in Heaven but God.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/17


The discussion was suffering Christians, and you twisted a verse to make it look like Christians will be TORMENTED BY GOD FOR 5 months. ---kathr4453

Kathryn
It was just an observation. I was making light of the way it was written, and how the verse could be read in the KJV. You corrected one of your posts on 11/14 and I assumed it was because you may have made such an error. I have made them too, which is why I read Revelation using a parallel bible.

Since we are discussing Revelation, thought I would share the advice with you and Barb, the advice I was given and still follow. So the answer is NO, I do not read the verse to say those sealed will be tormented.

And who is Kellyanne Conway?
---David on 11/17/17


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David, you didn't answer my question. You gave a Kellyanne Conway answer. Now again, Do you believe the KJV is incorrect and God is going to torment the 144000 for 5 months. Yes or no.

The discussion was suffering Christians, and you twisted a verse to make it look like Christians will be TORMENTED BY GOD FOR 5 months.

Just as Noah and family were SEALED IN THE ARK, and not touched by death or personal torment, neither will the 144,000.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/17


O.k., David. Thanks for answering my question. I can understand why you believe none of 144,000 are Gentiles because I once believed it myself.
---barb on 11/16/17


Do you think the 144,000 in Rev 7 and Rev 14 are two different groups? Do you believe that one group is Israel and the other is Gentile? Matt 3:7-10.---barb

Barb
No, I dont believe any of the 144,000 are gentiles. So they would be separate from The gentiles.
---David on 11/16/17


Actually David, ONLY those without the seal of God are tormented. Why would God torment His own and NOT the ones without the seal? You read that wrong.
---kathr4453

David, what makes you think those in Rev 9 are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 who are about to be sealed by an angel when those in Rev 9 are not sealed? The trumpets don't start until after the sealing.-Barb


Kathryn & Barb
No I read it right, just an observation.
I was showing how it could be read, or preached by someone using only the KJV, Kathryn showing how illogical it was.

This is one book of the Bible Where I find a parallel bible handy. Past generations didnt have this advantage, and thats probably why we have so many opposing views.
---David on 11/16/17


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(Revelation 9:4-5) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads And to them it was given, that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Kathryn & Barb
Have either of you ever noticed, in the above verses, the 144,000 are to be tormented for five months?
---David on 11/15/17

Actually David, ONLY those without the seal of God are tormented. Why would God torment His own and NOT the ones without the seal?

You read that wrong.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/17


David, what makes you think those in Rev 9 are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 who are about to be sealed by an angel when those in Rev 9 are not sealed? The trumpets don't start until after the sealing.

Do you think the 144,000 in Rev 7 and Rev 14 are two different groups? Do you believe that one group is Israel and the other is Gentile? Matt 3:7-10.
---barb on 11/15/17


Placing someone under a required system of tithing and offering is tantamount to ignoring the redemption of Christ and placing the church back under a curse of the law.
Those living under liberty and grace cannot be placed under a curse (Gal 5:1). Mandatory tithing is not a practice for the church, the BoC. Those who teach tithing are either ignorant of Pauls instructions or are mishandling the word of truth (Titus 1:11).
Our generosity is an outgrowth of our thankfulness to God for what he has done on the cross. When pastors use the law to motivate giving they are denying the all sufficient power of Gods grace (2 Cor 5:14-15, 9:8).
---michael_e on 11/15/17


Looney1 said, "But the only kind of tithe that the Bible describes is a tithe on agricultural products and livestock.

If I tithed, it would not be a Biblical tithe, but rather just a personal tithe because I wanted to tithe"

Does the Bible mention computers? Laptops? Ipads? The fact that you are participating in these blogs means that you accept SOME things that are not in the Bible. Just so, what can you tithe? As I said before, Time, Talent and Treasure.

What about a Jewish rope maker in 2nd Century BC? He is not farming, yet he is commanded to tithe as well. Might we suggest that he did NOT weave 10% of his rope for the Temple, but he sold rope, and gave 10% of his profits.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/14/17


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(Revelation 9:4-5) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads And to them it was given, that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Kathryn & Barb
Have either of you ever noticed, in the above verses, the 144,000 are to be tormented for five months?
---David on 11/15/17


The 144,000 are Jews now on the earth preaching the EARTHLY KINGDOM, where Jesus will reign and rule on earth as promised under the LAW to Israel. And we, His Body will reign and rule with Him.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/17///

Correction, the 144,000 are NOT "NOW" on earth preaching the Kingdom....they WILL BE on the earth preaching the Gospel OF THE KINGDOM , that is earthly kingdom AFTER the church is translated.

Sorry I put the word NOW in there. My mistake.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/17


David, maybe the 144,000, the first fruits are resurrected along with the dead in Christ, as we are told that most of them are killed. Rev 12:10-13, Rev 19:7-8, Rev 14:12-13. They preach the true gospel, the gospel of the kingdom/Words of Jesus during the warning trumpets. Rev. 14.

I don't believe that there are two groups. Jesus taught one Way/Door, one fold, and one Shepherd. And He clearly states, anyone who cannot hear His voice is Not His sheep. John 10:24-30.

The 7 last plagues are God's wrath on those who ignore the trumpet warnings and do not repent. Rev 15:8-11. Those standing and singing on the sea of glass are the first and second fruits protected from God's wrath.



---barb on 11/14/17


David, The Elect Church, and Elect Israel. The Elect Church belongs to Jesus Christ, and Elect Israel belong to God the Father....always have, as we see in Romans 11.

There cannot be two different Gospels so to speak on earth at the same time.. After the Church is Translated out, the Gospel OF THE KINGDOM will be preached. THAT Gospel belongs to Israel the NATION. Not to be confused with Jews and Gentiles TODAY, who are saved by the Gospel of Grace, making one NEW man, neither Jew or Gentile..where OUR Kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD.

The 144,000 are Jews now on the earth preaching the EARTHLY KINGDOM, where Jesus will reign and rule on earth as promised under the LAW to Israel. And we, His Body will reign and rule with Him.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/17


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Kathryn
I gave you (Matthew 24:29) and (Revelation 6:12-13), to show you they are the very same event. To also show this same event taking place, as written in (Revelation 6), tells us that Jesus comes for his elect when the sixth seal is opened.

But in (Revelation 7) we can see the 144,000 are being sealed, not raptured. Proving the elect being gathered in (Matthew 24: 31) are the gentiles, not those being sealed.

In (Revelation 9:4), we can see those who were sealed, are still on Earth when Gods Wrath is being delved out. Though Gods seal protects them from this Wrath.

Still do not know why the 144,000 are not raptured when Jesus comes for his elect. Any thoughts as to why?
---David on 11/14/17


David, We have elect Israel, also having promises still to be fulfilled, and the Elect CHURCH, which is the Body of Christ, a mystery kept secret until the New Testament. It's most important to understand each one AND the different promises to each. One must study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman not to be ashamed ..RIGHTLY dividing the Word of truth. So we need to rightly divide ...here who the elect in each group and the DIFFERENT promises to each.

Also concerning Matthew 24:29 and Rev 6:12-13 may very well be symbolic or again literal. Literal would give the Pre Rapture folks a good argument. Where I may be wrong in that area. That's why I'm not dogmatic about it.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/17


The problem ..the real center of this issue is many fail to grasp the CHURCH is Not Israel. If you don't believe that they are two entirely different entities, you will never get It.---kathr4453

Kathryn
I agree, and because of this difference it helps us to gain a better understanding of Revelation. Lets not argue about who the elect are, lets let the Bible tell us to end all argument. To do this we must look for the common denominators. One is found in (Matthew 24:29) and in (Revelation 6:12-13).

Do you agree these are the same events?
---David on 11/13/17


David, I also see Enoch, as a type and shadow of the translation of the Church, and Noah as those saved through the Great Tribulation. When Jude states that Enoch..the 7th Generation from Adam....is most interesting ...7 also meaning complete, has significant meaning and was not stated without a good reason. As we too are COMPLETE IN CHRIST, are a 7, having entered His REST is also very significant. We've ENTERED IN. Heb 3-4 and Heb 10 will explain Not the same as KEEPING. those KEEPING are still WORKING, and in Rev there is also a reference to those who worship the beast as those WORKING day and night....Obviously NOT at REST, or those who have ceased from their own works. Also stated in Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/17


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David, those IN CHRIST are not gathered by Angels....as we are ALWAYS PRESENT WITH THE LORD. Also we know according to scripture the CHURCH was kept secret in the OT, therefore the prophesy in Isaiah I posted also reiterated in Matthew 24 Is to Israel.

The problem ..the real center of this issue is many fail to grasp the CHURCH is Not Israel. If you don't believe that they are two entirely different entities, you will never get It.

read 1 Thesselonians 5 very carefully....Referring to "The Day of the Lord " AKA the day of His WRATH prophesied in the OT. ....WE THE CHURCH ARE NOT going to be subjected to His wrath to come, prophesied to come at the end of the age. Zechariah 14 for more details on that very thing.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/17


David, personally I'm more inclined to believe in a mid Trib Rapture. Many pretrib disagree, but I don't get overly dogmatic about it. REV 10 : 7 says "at" the last trump, that is the 7th angel....BEFORE THE BOWLES OF WRATH, THE MYSTERY OF GOD IS Finished, complete. . Now 1 Cor 15 says at the last trump the dead in Christ shall rise. And we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Also in Colossians 2:2, the ONLY other time the words MYSTERY OF GOD are used, refers to the CHURCH, that mystical BODY OF CHRIST...those IN CHRIST defined in Colossians 1-24-27 explain.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/17


Isaiah 27:12-13: O ye children of Israel, and it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria and the outcasts in the land of Egypt and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount of Jerusalem. God here was promising toward the end times if you read the whole context that Hes going to re-gather His scattered people of Israel from many different places around the world. Matthew 24:31: He shall send his angels with the sound of a great trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew is referring to ELECT Israel...Romans 11 the CHURCH is NOT Israel.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/17


The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God....
---kathr4453

(Matthew 24:29-31)KJV, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Romans 5:9) KJV, Tells us.....we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Kathryn
How could Jesus save us from the Wrath of God if he comes for us after the Great Tribulation period, ...if the wrath and the tribulation periods are one and the same?
---David on 11/12/17


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whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Also,in Thesselonians, the wrath is coming upon those who have rejected the Gospel that they might be saved...from the wrath to come, as well as from HELL. Hell is not referred to as the WRATH TO COME.

They believe the lie. The LIE is not the rapture AKA those who are Caught up to meet the Lord in the Clouds.

The lie is believing the anti-Christ is Christ Himself. We know it can't be, since we will be with the Lord at His return.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/17


David, the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God, a time of Gods judgement upon the earth NOT TOWARDS His Children. Scripture tells us we have been saved from the WRATH TO COME. I think so many believe that the ONLY TIME of trials testing and suffering is during the Great Tribulation, and that those who want to escape this suffering believe in a rapture, so they won't have to experience it.

BUT scripture tells us that Christians from the moment we become saved SUFFER, called the fellowship of His sufferings...to bring us to being conformed to His image.

So tell me why the suffering during the Great Tribulation ..(not the fellowship of his suffering) would be ADDED ON TOP OF what we already suffer. We are already OVERCOMERS .
---kathr4453 on 11/11/17


But somehow you accuse those who believe in a Rapture as disobedient having no discernment? ---kathr4453

Kathryn
Accusing no, warning yes. Jesus gave the same warning in (Matthew 15:4) And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch..

I create my questions to show how illogical the false doctrines are. If those who follow these teachings can see the illogic, they may just turn and seek the Truth.
---David on 11/11/17


David, good question, but let's take the 144,000 for example.....they do not take the mark..right, and it also says...They sang the song of Moses and overcame the beast....I would suggest that means his mark as well.

So since YOU think you will be living during the Great Trib you Will escape the mark because you will be obedient...correct. But somehow you accuse those who believe in a Rapture as disobedient having no discernment?

I agree many are taught about a rapture and told they will be raptured, who are not even Born Again in the first place. Yes, they will be deceived, just like those who don't believe in a rapture, but still religious will ALSO BE DECEIVED because they think obeying the LaW will save them.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/17


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David, believing in the pre-Trib rapture, mid-Trib or just any rapture does not send anyone to hell. ---kathr4453 on 11/8/17

Kathryn
If they are alive during the great tribulation, still waiting for a pre-tribulation rapture, what will keep them from receiving the mark of the Beast?

If they believe the rapture occurs before the tribulation period, they will not know they are living during the tribulation and will not recognize the mark of the beast.
---David on 11/10/17


Monk Brendan

I have no objections all if people choose to tithe their income. That's okay with me.

My point was, however, that nobody in the Bible tithed except those who grew crops or raised livestock. That was mandatory in Israel.

The only other mandatory gift was the annual temple tax, which Jesus Paid.

Christians are not obliged to tithe their income. But they are certainly urged to give joyfully whatever they are able to give.
---Loony1 on 11/9/17


Paul taught the truth that Christ became a curse for us when he died on the cross (Gal 3:13). This includes any curse associated with the law of tithing under the Old Testament.
The cross removed the curse, including the curse that would come from Israels failure to tithe. It removed us from the beggarly elements of the law (Gal 4:9).
The Curse is the Enemy of the Cross
The same pastors who traded the cross for the creche in December, will trade the cross for a curse in the new year.
This is the tell-tale sign of religion: anything but the cross and free grace!
---michael_e on 11/9/17


Loony1 said, "But the only kind of tithe that the Bible describes is a tithe on agricultural products and livestock.

If I tithed, it would not be a Biblical tithe, but rather just a personal tithe because I wanted to tithe"

Come on, there are very few people that are farmers and /or shepherds today. You cannot possibly believe that the only Biblical way to tithe is to give of your cattle/sheep or vegetables. But the whole idea of tithing--while not a law--is still something that I try to cooperate with God about. Every month, I send money (in the form of a check) to my church, and it is recorded.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/9/17


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Rob asked, " Monk_Brendan, it has been awhile since we heard from you. How have you been?"

I've been alive. Just been working too hard to spend time chatting on these blogs.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/9/17


A person who believes works earn him salvation is wrong. ---Samuelbb7

Samuel
I agree. Some believe this is what I teach, when I teach exactly what Jesus taught in (John 14:21).

To be clear,
I teach God loves those who are obedient to His commandments, commandments given to us through his Holy Spirit. And God saves those he loves. This is what Paul meant when he said, We are saved by Grace. For Grace is, Gods Love.

Their teaching?
God saves you when you believe Jesus is the Son of God, and not because God the Father loves us.

They can not teach, God saves us because he loves us, because they teach,....God loves everyone. And if God loved everyone, everyone would be saved.
Correct?
---David on 11/9/17


When we use the term being under the law what do we mean?

What did Paul mean when he says a person is under the law.

Many use the term under the law to mean that a person saves themselves by obeying the law. Or legalism. Which is true. A person who believes works earn him salvation is wrong.

But others say it means a person does not have to keep the law. That it is not a sin to lie, steal or break any of the Ten Commandments. This is false. Most accept that. But others say no. A person can live in sin and it does not matter if they break the law.
What do ya'll think?

Pray for the families from the Texas church shooting.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/8/17


Why do you believe what I said was wrong?
---David on 11/8/17

If you had called the tithe "the Hebrews Law" I would have agreed with you. The tithe was given to the Hebrews to support the Levitical priesthood.

Our NT directive for giving is:

Matt. 22:39 "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

We are to give generously, as we would give to ourselves or to our family. We must see that our neighbor (as in the Good Samaritan) can be anyone who God places in our path.

We are called to participate in shepherding the flock of the Good Shepherd. Money, time, and talent were talked about by Jesus to use as a measure of our bearing good fruit.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/8/17


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....many of the other foolish teachings. Like the pre-tribulation teaching for example. Unlike some, I do not come here to argue, I come in the hope of waking folks up.
---David on 11/8/17

David, believing in the pre-Trib rapture, mid-Trib or just any rapture does not send anyone to hell.

Being under the LAW during the age of Grace WILL. That has been made Totally and clear in Romans 10. Because the Law is not GRACE or OF FAITH. On both counts, one shows they have no idea what salvation means, or even about...which IS salvation from going to hell. I see no scripture saying anything about believing Pauls account in Thesselonians that we will MEET THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS, sends them to hell.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/17


Mark
You said I was wrong calling the Tithe, Gods Law. Why do you believe what I said was wrong?

I am not arguing one should tithe, I am just trying to understand how teachers slide it by those they teach, without it being questioned. And if they questioned this teaching, maybe....just maybe, it will open their eyes to the other foolishness things they are being taught.

No one will go to hell for tithing, but they will if they are not woken up to many of the other foolish teachings. Like the pre-tribulation teaching for example. Unlike some, I do not come here to argue, I come in the hope of waking folks up.
---David on 11/8/17


The tithe was required
Giving today is not of necessity (2 Cor 9:7). This is an important distinction between generosity and obligation.
The law tithe places you under a curse
If you do not continue tithing then you can be cursed (Gal 3:10).
Christ has redeemed you from the law of tithing
Law tithing represents ignorance or negligence of Christs cross (Gal 3:13, 1 Cor 1:17, Gal 2:21).
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21
---michael_e on 11/7/17


True, if you are talking about giving money to God as a Tithe, as is taught in the Church.
---David on 11/7/17

In the NT, seldom is the tithe mentioned. It is mentioned by Jesus and by the author of Hebrews.

Jesus commended the Pharisees for tithing. Yet they were still under the Law, of which tithing is a part of the Law.

In Hebrews 7, the passage is about the levitical priesthood in which we read:

Heb 7:12 "For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also".

The Levitical priesthood is gone. We are now kings and priests. We no longer need to tithe to sustain a priesthood that no longer exists.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/7/17


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David & Cluny

I found this on the Orthodox Church in America website, for what it's worth.

"While tithing - giving 10% of our financial resources, or 'treasures' is an Old Testament imperative, it certainly is not inappropriate for Christians to set aside a tithe, or percentage of their income, for Gods work. If one can contribute 10%, then let him or her do so, if one can contribute more, then let him or her do so. But if one can only contribute a smaller percentage, then let him or her do so, making no comparisons with others, and as a sign of thanksgiving for the blessings God has bestowed."
---Loony1 on 11/7/17


The paradox is caused by David's first statement "Tithing is Gods Law", which is incorrect. ---Mark_Eaton

Mark
True, if you are talking about giving money to God as a Tithe, as is taught in the Church. For in Gods Law, God did not accept money as a tithe. Is this what your talking about?

Cluny
When I did an internet search, I read the Orthodox Church does expect a tithe, perhaps yours does not.
---David on 11/7/17


...giving in the Bible: tithing in the OT, or giving 100% of your wealth in the book of Acts.---Cluny on 11/4/17


That's a false misconception and one the WOF people use to fleece the sheep. I was in a church once that used that verse in Acts while they were building on to the church and needed money, and told folks if they didn't give ALL their money to the church, God would strike them down. That verse says NO SUCH THING.

IF YOU READ, it was theirs to,give OR NOT GIVE. Their sin was LYING ABOUT IT, not holding anything back.

We give from our heart and often that comes to more than 10%. the Tithe 10% was more lie paying TAXES ( before taxes) to pay for the Priesthood, just like we pay for Fireman, Police, etc.
---kathr4453 on 11/6/17


...explain why your under the Law of Tithing?
---David on 11/4/17

As josef has stated, no one is under the law of tithing, except perhaps those practicing Judaism.

As David points out, this is a paradox for most Christians. We believe we are no longer under the Law, yet tithing is a piece of the Law.

The paradox is caused by David's first statement "Tithing is Gods Law", which is incorrect. Tithing was to provide for the levitical priests, which are not around today.

Tithing is a lesson to be learned about giving and about Gods blessing in our lives. Nothing is ours, it is all provided by God and we should not attempt to hold onto it.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/6/17


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\\ I suspected this is because the Orthodox Church is one that Follows the Tithing Laws written in the Old Testament.\\

Wrong again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/17


Abdul

When do you think this Rapture is supposed to take place?
---Loony1 on 11/6/17


Monk_Brendan, it has been awhile since we heard from you. How have you been?
---Rob on 11/6/17


It is obvious that the fathers of christian faith have invented many things to keep the christian believe in order that could be accepted and sustained but it is also no doubt that it isn't the Lord's pleasure to 'pay' tithe to anyone. the requirement for tithing is among all things is a banquet for families and unbelievers alongside with the sons of Levi in ones company in a particular place where God will choose to partake. Using something that the Lord has done away with to please His present purpose of the Kingdom of God is like mixing wine or putting new one in old wine skin. It's damaging! It's time to wake up to the reality of the Kingdom of God, because rapture have tarried long enough.
---abdulaziz_salahudin on 11/6/17


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Monk Brendan

You are right. I could tithe my money.

But the only kind of tithe that the Bible describes is a tithe on agricultural products and livestock.

If I tithed, it would not be a Biblical tithe, but rather just a personal tithe because I wanted to tithe
---Loony1 on 11/5/17


Loony1 said, " I couldn't tithe even if I was supposed to. I grow no crops and I raise no livestock."

That is a cop out, and you know it. A tithe is 10% of your time, your treasure, and your talent, and not JUST crops and livestock.

If you're working for a living, then it is 10% of your paycheck. plus the time you give to God in church and in prayer, etc.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/5/17


Tithing was commanded by God to the people of Israel for the Levites,since they did not work and they were there to take care of temple sacrifice.It is right that we are not under this law as christians,but we could use that to claim Gods promise of what he would do if we tithe,ofcourse 10 percent of our income.
Giving 100% in the book of Acts is not applicable now,it was in the early church.
---KEHINDE on 11/5/17


There are only two standards for giving in the Bible: tithing in the OT, or giving 100% of your wealth in the book of Acts.---Cluny on 11/4/17

Cluny
Your answer was written in defensive of my question, not as an answer. I suspected this is because the Orthodox Church is one that Follows the Tithing Laws written in the Old Testament. Looked it up, and my suspicion was correct.

If you do not know the answer, ask one of your Priests. Honestly, Being the intelligent man you are, I am surprised you havent already. As your statement above proves, you know Tithing is a Law under the Old Testament, and yet your Priests have taught you are not under the Law.
---David on 11/5/17


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The intent of tithing was the support of the Levitical priesthood. But "the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." No one is under the law of tithing, except, perhaps those practicing the religion of Judaism.
---josef on 11/4/17


I couldn't tithe even if I was supposed to. I grow no crops and I raise no livestock.
---Loony1 on 11/4/17


There are only two standards for giving in the Bible: tithing in the OT, or giving 100% of your wealth in the book of Acts.

Which one do you want to follow?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/4/17


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