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Is Christmas Pagan

Christmas is not mentioned in the Holy Bible. It was a Roman invention that came from two words "Christ and mass, called the Catholic assembly that celebrated the birth of Jesus in the 3rd Century on the same day as the pagan Roman god Saturn was worshipped. Christ mass was a pagan creation.

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 ---Norton_Nowlin_M.A. on 12/11/17
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All you are about is ACID... MonkBrendan.

A claim made by one who wants anyone disagreeing with him to "end up in HELL".

If I were a searcher, I certainly wouldn't find any love from MonkBrendan or his crowd. In fact there are many fleeing from "hellish" churches MonkBrendan belongs to and coming to the truth.

What sort of love is there in a caustic church which says people will burn in "hell". No love or Christianity from MonkBrendan!

And yes, your brand of false Christianity has literally killed people. We only have to go back a few years to find trinitarians slaughtering eachother on the battle field in 2 world wars. You can only serve up death or hell!
---David8318 on 1/9/18


Grow up... strongax.

I didn't say anything about "irrelevancy". What I do point out is your and MonkBrendans ineptitude in defending your pseudo-Christian paganism and where in scripture do we find 1st century Christians celebrating Jesus' birth on December 25.

You cannot because December 25 is your pagan holy-day and nothing to do with Christ or his birth, but everything to do with pagan Rome and its false god Mithra.

You guys need to man up! You are the biggest hypocrite on this site. You're just as guilty as anyone else serving up ad-hominem attacks.
---David8318 on 1/9/18


David8318:

I'm not surprised that you find being called out on your personal attacks "amusing".

Attempting to refute someone's ideas by saying they "come from the bottom of a whiskey bottle" it not dealing with issues either. Is solely a personal attack, as is "incomptent and inept".

To properly call out the irrelevancy in someone else's posts, first remove the irrelevancy in your OWN posts (Matthew 7:3-5, Luke 6:41-42).

Romans 8:1 says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus". Since Jesus won't condemn us, you seem to feel like that's your job. Grow up.
---StrongAxe on 1/8/18


David 8318 said, "Numbers are not your strong point? Nothing much else is!"

Boy, if I were a searcher, I would definitely be overwhelmed by the love and warmth I get from you.

All you are about is ACID. Not love, not Christianity, just acid. Don't you know that that type of attitude can kill you, literally? Worse, it can put your soul in danger of hell.

If you don't like the truthful version, then you can go ahead and believe what you want.
---Monk_Brendan on 1/8/18


//David + numbers// MonkBrendan.

Numbers are not your strong point? Nothing much else is!

Honestly you and strongax have provided much amusement on this post. I had to laugh when you ended your last post with your pagan "go to hell" rant.

Neither you nor strongax can discuss or deal with the issues raised on this blog. You cannot show where 1st century Christians celebrated Jesus' birth on December 25, neither can you show where pagan Constantine "cooperated" with Christ prior to 313AD.

You are both incompetent and inept. But you both deserve eachother and nothing else.
---David8318 on 1/8/18




David8318:

Saying someone gets his wisdom out of a whiskey bottle is a euphemism "he's a drunk". You have zero evidence of such, and it is not true. Does your bible include "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"?

"You can't prove it with facts" is a reasonable logical argument. "You can't prove it because you're a drunk" is an ad-hominem attack, a logical fallacy (regardless of whether he were actually a drunk).

That he's not a drunk makes it not only fallacious, but also libelous one (OK, libel is written and slander is spoken, but they are often used interchangeably).

Showing your fallacy is neither "ranting" nor "pathetic".
---StrongAxe on 1/7/18


David + numbers--even though not everyone uses numbers. I DON'T.--said, As stated by none other than the pagan apologist himself- MonkBrendan, who probably gets his information from Christmas crakers, or perhaps the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle!

Okay, David, I will spell it out for you. I DO NOT DRINK! A sip of wine when I receive Holy Communion, that's it.

So, I have denied it thoroughly. This is a LIE! I demand an apology from you, David, or you are going to end up in HELL!
---Monk_Brendan on 1/6/18


YOU slandered MonkBrendan... strongax.

Strongax over-reacts to everything. Please explain why my "whiskey" comment is slanderous?

//he is no drunkard//- strongax.

I didn't say he was.

MonkBrendan has not been able to show where first century Christians celebrated Jesus' birth on December 25. He cannot because the origins of December 25 are well documented in paganism- not the Bible.

MonkBrendan is also not able to disprove the fact that pagan Constantine made a death-bed "conversion" to his apostate RCC in 337AD. And MonkB. has failed to provide evidence where Constantine "co-operated" with Christ prior to 313AD.
---David8318 on 1/6/18


David8318:

Strongax "slander" rantings are pathetic.

YOU slandered MonkBrendan with your "whiskey" comment, and I asked you THREE TIMES to justify them (and this is the fourth time), but you have not yet done so. Why not?

I searched Biblegateway for Abijah, and it didn't show any references in the New Testament. After looking up Luke 1:5, it's because KJV renders it "Abia". This was an honest mistakes, and I apologize for over-reacting.

This mentions Zacharias's lineage, which relates only to genealogy. 1 Chronicles 24 says Abijah was the eighth division, but so what? It doesn't say WHEN each division served.
---StrongAxe on 12/29/17


Abijah is NOT mentioned in Luke at all. From what extra-biblical source did you pull that?
---StrongAxe on 12/28/17

None. It is in Luke:

Luke 1:5 "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah, and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth"

I agree with David. I believe Jesus was born on Sukkot, in a Sukkah not a manger, and this is the reason why Sukkot is revered by God.

Zech. 14:16 "Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/28/17




//Abijah is NOT mentioned in Luke at all//- strongax.

Strongax has completely lost the plot. Anyone looking at strongax posts will see how inept he is at serious Bible study. Let me read Luke 1:5 slowly so that strongax isn't left behind:

"In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron"- Luke 1:5 (NIV).

Strongax "slander" rantings are pathetic. Why don't you guys man up! You pagan trinitarians get as good as you give.
---David8318 on 12/28/17


\\Abijah is NOT mentioned in Luke at all. From what extra-biblical source did you pull that?
\\

In fairness to David, who is generally fair to nobody, the "course of Abijah" is mentioned in the Annunciation to St. Zacharias in Matthew.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/17


David8318:

You wrote: He hasn't denied it yet. And aren't you playing the hypocrite!

He doesn't have to deny it. Since you had ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to make it, and no evidence to base it on, it is SLANDER. The Bible demands two or three witnesses to an accusation, yet you made it with ZERO witnesses. Cluny has personally witnessed AGAINST it, and I do also, becasue I also know MonkBrendan personally, and know that he is no drunkard. How about THEM witnesses?

Jesus was born 15 months after the "Divison of Abijah" when Gabriel appeared to Zechariah announcing John's conception

Abijah is NOT mentioned in Luke at all. From what extra-biblical source did you pull that?
---StrongAxe on 12/28/17


//justify your slanderous comment// strongax.

He hasn't denied it yet. And aren't you playing the hypocrite!

//The Divison of Abijah... what does it have to do with the day Jesus was conceived or born?//

Someone draw strongax a picture... or at least give him a lesson in human biology! Jesus was born 15 months after the "Divison of Abijah" when Gabriel appeared to Zechariah announcing John's conception- Lu.1:5. 6 months later, Gabriel appeared to Mary announcing Jesus' conception- Lu.1:26.

The 2nd round of the "Divison of Abijah" would have been in the Jewish 4th month. Jesus was born 15 months later, during Tishri- late Sept., early October- when shepherds were in the fields.
---David8318 on 12/28/17


//Dec.25... centuries before the Pagans//- NicoleLacey.

Again no supporting evidence, Biblical or secular to back up this pagan apologist statement other than the false religious assumption of the "Annunciation of Mary" belief. Just because pseudo-Christians use December 25 as their pagan starting point rather than the Bible, it doesn't follow that Jesus was conceived March 25th.

Given that pagan Emperor Constantine was brought up in the Sol Invicta cult, it is not surprising Constantine's new un-Orthodox Catholic cult would adopt the date of his beloved false-god celebration.

Christians never used Dec.25 for any festival and did not follow pagan Constantine into observing the December 25 celebration
---David8318 on 12/28/17


David8318:

You wrote: The "Division of Abijah" ...

This is all well and fine, but what does it have to do with the day Jesus was conceived or born? It is not mentioned in the New Testament.

You have also not answered the question about how you justify your slanderous comment about MonkBrendan getting his information of the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle.
---StrongAxe on 12/28/17


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//March 25th//- Nic.Lacey.

I disagree. The "Division of Abijah" was the 8th of the 24 Priestly divisions decreed by King David- 1Chron.24:1-19.

Abib (or Nisan) was the first month- Ex.34:18.

The 24 priestly divisions began to count in the 7th month, Tishri- it closed not only the sacred cycle, but also the agricultural or working year.

Thus, the first round of 24 courses plus the eight courses of the annual second round (plus the joint-service period of two of the three festivals) would extend into the next Jewish years 4th month. This meant the "Divison of Abijah's" second round fell (on our calendar) in late June or early July.

Jesus was conceived late December, early January.
---David8318 on 12/27/17


\\Dec 25th date has been celebrated by Christians centuries before the Pagans decided to use the date for their own god.\\

Nicole, this is attested to in the book (also available as an e-book) THE APOSTASY THAT WASN'T.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/17


Nicole states, "Dec 25th date has been celebrated by Christians centuries before the Pagans decided to use the date for their own god."

Nicole, can you provide some evidence and a source to where you learned of this information. I am a Student of Church History and have never heard a scholar or historian ever make this claim.

Can you please provide source or sources??

Thanks,

John
---john9346 on 12/27/17


Monk_Brendan:

You wrote: David (trying to raise his IQ with numbers behind his name)

In all fairness, ChristiaNet assigns user names consisting of a name followed by a random 4-digit number, so people who post using such name in that form are most likely posting using their ChristiaNet account names.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/17


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\\MonkBrendan, who probably gets his information from Christmas crakers, or perhaps the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle!"\\

Where did you get your information, David?

I know Brendan very well, and I can assure you that except for a sip of wine at Communion, he does NOT DRINK ALCOHOL AT ALL.

BTW, when are you going to answer my question about what pagan elements Constantine added to Christianity, and where did you get this information?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/26/17


David, the Christians celebrated the Annunciation of Mary from the Arch-Angel Gabriel on March 25 immediately after Jesus' death.

They got the date from the Virgin Mary since only she was present.

Dec 25th date is 9 months from March 25th.

Dec 25th date has been celebrated by Christians centuries before the Pagans decided to use the date for their own god.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/26/17


David (trying to raise his IQ with numbers behind his name) said, "As stated by none other than the pagan apologist himself- MonkBrendan, who probably gets his information from Christmas crakers, or perhaps the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle!"

David, all you have done in this whole thread is criticize me. You are now calling me a pagan apologist. Fine, if that's what you want to do, go ahead, I am not bothered by the leavings in the bottom of a bird cage. Have fun. Call me every name you want to.

Matt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
---Monk_Brendan on 12/26/17


\\Neither strongax or MonkB. support their pagan propaganda with solid historical evidenc\\

You're one to talk, David.

I've asked you for specific examples of what elements of paganism Constine added to Christianity, and you have not given them.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/26/17


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David8318:

Your MonkBrendan, who probably gets his information from Christmas crakers, or perhaps the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle! was NOT addressing anything Monk Brendan said. It did nothing but attack his character. Again, why did you do that? By the Golden Rule, it must mean you want others to defame and lie about you too. Do you?

All you have to do is google Mordecai Marduk for plenty of evidence. (Also, Esther is derived from Ishtar). I didn't say this earlier due to 125 word limit. You are too quick to accuse people of lying without evidence. Not responding quickly enough for your liking is not evidence. People have lives outside CN, especially this time of year. You know whom the NT calls The Accuser.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/17


//rather than taking issue with what they say//-strongax.

I am taking issue with MonkBrendan & strongax pagan propaganda!

Neither strongax or MonkB. support their pagan propaganda with solid historical evidence.

Strongax LIE: "Mordecai (named after pagan god Marduk)".

I've asked strongax to provide evidence to support this statement. He cannot because he is lying.

MonkBrendan LIE: "Constantine was not pagan".

All historical evidence clearly shows Roman Emperor Constantine was a pagan. MonkB. wants us to believe pagan Rome would have appointed a Christian as Emperor? MonkB. is high on something and he's certainly not high on the truth.
---David8318 on 12/26/17


//condemn things based on the names they have//- strongax.

I condemn things based on what they are, not on what they are named.

The December 25 celebration is not a Christian celebration. Neither you nor MonkB. have given any evidence or proof the 1st century Christians celebrated Jesus' birth on December 25 or any other date.

The December 25 celebration is clearly of pagan origin and continues to be so. You are deluded if you think otherwise.

If you believe Dec.25 is such an important date on the Christian calendar, why is it not commanded in the Bible? But of course, you don't follow the Bible. You are a pagan disguised as a Christian! You are a "wolf in sheeps clothing"- Mt.7:15.
---David8318 on 12/26/17


David8318:

That was a purely ad-hominem attack (i.e. a logical fallacy that does nothing whatsoever to prove your point or disprove his).

You claim to be a Christian. If you ridicule who others are (rather than taking issue with what they say), and then makes deliberate lies (e.g. whiskey bottle) to insult them, it means that you are either appalling ignorant of Jesus's Golden Rule, or you don't care about it because you don't want something as inconvenient as Jesus's teachings to interrupt your hateful narrative, or you actually wish that others insult you and tell lies about you. Which of these three things is it? Or do you have a fourth explanation?
---StrongAxe on 12/25/17


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//Constantine was not pagan//- MonkBrendan.

As stated by none other than the pagan apologist himself- MonkBrendan, who probably gets his information from Christmas crakers, or perhaps the bottom of an empty whiskey bottle!

I'm sure we will hear denials from MonkB that pagan Roman Emperor Constantine [or to give him his proper pagan title Pontifex Maximus] never converted to his apostate brand of Christianity until his death-bed "conversion" in 337AD.

What evidence can MonkB. provide to show Constantine "cooperated" with Christ before 313AD? What does MonkB. even mean by "cooperating"?

Christendom began with pagan Constantine. Papal Rome simply took over from pagan Rome.
---David8318 on 12/25/17


David8318:

You dishonestly added "[it]" as you add "[other]" in Colossians 1. I didn't say EASTER comes from pesach. I said the name for it in LATIN LANGUAGES does, and showed EXAMPLES.

Have you studied Hebrew or names in the Bible at all?!

You just made my point! Just because a Christmas tree has a pagan origin, it doesn't mean IT is pagan.

Easter eggs and bunnies (and other commercial trappings) are pagan, but celebrating Jesus's resurrection at Easter (which Christians all over the world do) is NOT.

"the re-definer of all things pagan"!

Your cult has been tilting at that windmill for over a century. *I* didn't build it.
---StrongAxe on 12/25/17


//condemn things based on the names they have//- strongax.

You still have not given any proof Mordecai is linked to "Marduk". Even if Mordecai, Apollos or Mark had pagan names, it doesn't mean they are pagan.

Easter [Astarte] on the other hand is pagan. It's not the case that a Christian celebration was assigned a pagan name. "Easter" is a pagan fertility festival redefined by pseudo-Christians and used to hijack Christ's resurrection. [again "What sharing does Christ have with Belial [or Astarte?]"- 2Cor.6:15].

The answer of course is "No Sharing!"

Unless of course your name is Strongaxe, aka: "the re-definer of all things pagan"!
---David8318 on 12/24/17


//no evidence of your claim//- MonkBrendan.

December 25 is not a date set by the Bible. It's a historical fact. The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges [quote]:

"The date of Christs birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month... the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice, because on this day... the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25,274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome". (1967), Vol. III, p. 656.
---David8318 on 12/24/17


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//it [Easter] comes from pesach//- strongax.

Rubbish. You don't get the word Easter from the Hebrew word pe'sach. That is clear evidence of twisting facts to justify your pagan identity. What scholarly source can you quote or cite to prove "Easter" is a derivative of the Hebrew word pe'sach? Justify yourself! Honestly, you spout pagan rubbish.

Easter is derived directly Astarte:

"Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven... on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar"- New Catholic.Encyl.

Perhaps strongax will now demonstrate how from the Hebrew word pe'sach came the word "Easter"?
---David8318 on 12/24/17


In Polish it's Wielkanoc (Great Night)\\

In Ukrainian, it's Velikidnen--Great Day.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/24/17


Cluny:

David8318 is a Jehovah's Witness, hence my quip "your unorthodox cult" in response to his "orthodox cult" comment. I was there once for a year 41 years ago, until I realized their brand of heterodoxy was just as unscriptural as any unscriptural practices they railed against.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/17


David8318:

Yes, In English (and other Germanic languages), Easter is related to Astarte, Ishtar, etc. but that's not the case in other languages. In Latin languages, it comes from pesach - the Hebrew word for Passover (French pques, Spanish pascua, even Russian pascha). In Polish it's Wielkanoc (Great Night). Nonetheless, you JWs don't condemn Easter only in English and German-speaking countries, so the nae is only a smokescreen.

If you want to condemn things based on the names they have, you might as well also condemn Mordecai, the hero of Ruth, and Apollos of Ephesus, and even the apostle Mark (named after Mars).
---StrongAxe on 12/23/17


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David, I don't know where you're getting your information, but you are WAYYY off base.

First, Constantine did NOT make Christianity (of any sort) the state religion of the Empire. This did not happen until his grandson Theodosius.

Next, Athanasius, who was nobody's lap dog, defended the deity of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Or are you an Arian, perchance?

Finally, give specific examples of paganism that Constantine introduced into Christianity, with the dates he did so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/23/17


StrongAxe: How does Christmas have anything to do with the first Resurrection?//

Really? Ask a Jew

Both EVENTS occurred in the NT.

//"Christmas" as such is never mentioned,//

It is covered in Matt and Luke. The Word Christmas isn't in the Bible, the event is in the Bible.

//while it is Easter/Pascha/Passover/whatever that is associated with the resurrection.//

NOOOOOOOO, BREAK IT UP!

The word Easter isn't in the Bible, but the event is in the Bible which is ONLY the Resurrection.

Easter is NOT the Passover!

Do not inflate both events.

Passover is in the OT, but not in the NT.

Jews believe and still celebrate the Passover, but NOT the Resurrection thus Easter.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/23/17


David, show me, in the Bible, that they did not. And remember, no evidence of your claim does not make it true.

"No, he made apostate Christianity [the Catholic-orthodox debacle] the state church."

Without looking at the New Catholic Encyclopedia, or any websites tell me all of the FACTS you know about Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

"...Roman Emperor Constantine was pagan!"

Which shows YOUR true ignorance! Constantine was not pagan. He began cooperating with Christ before 313 AD, which is when the Edict of Milan made Christianity legal. At the First Council of Nicea, he humbly sat in the background and let the bishops and priests begin structuring the undivided Christian Church.
---Monk_Brendan on 12/23/17


Nicole_Lacey:

How does Christmas have anything to do with the first Resurrection? "Christmas" as such is never mentioned, while it is Easter/Pascha/Passover/whatever that is associated with the resurrection.

In Catholic environments (at least from my own personal experience), that there is much more veneration of Mary than Jesus. Count how many Catholic churches have names including "Lady", "Notre Dame", etc. vs. "Lord", "Redeemer", etc. (which are much more popular in Protestant churches). So in Catholic countries, you would be much more likely to have Madonna+child postage stamps than ones with an adult Jesus.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/17


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//Neither is the word 'Easter'// Nic.Lacey.

That's because Easter is also a pagan fertility festival erroneously associated with Christ's resurrection. Pagans worshipped their false fertility god "Astarte" and false Christians like strongax who want to "redefine" paganism adopted "Astarte" known today as Easter.

//The first Christmas is mentioned in the Bible as the first Resurrection//

Where does the Bible say this?

//we should remove T from the alphabet//- strongax.

Who said the letter T was associated with Tammuz? I didn't. Google: images for symbols of tammuz. Christendoms cross is derived from images of the symbol of Tammuz, not the letter T.
---David8318 on 12/23/17


strongaxe states, "It isn't. Neither is celebrating Christmas. Nowhere is celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas anything that the Bible teaches anything about, one way or other."

Strongaxe sir, celebrating or not celebrating Christmas is a matter of worship or practice.

What many here are against are the practices and customs used to celebrate Christ's Birth,therefore, because Christ is the object and Christ instructs us on how he is to be worship the matter of christmas is a matter of Faith and Practice.

Does this make sense? Remember, Christ is the object of worship if christmas was the object of worship then your argument would be logical and valid.
---john9346 on 12/23/17


john9346:

You wrote: explain how the use of computers, internet, and blogs is a matter of faith and practice for Christians

It isn't. Neither is celebrating Christmas. Nowhere is celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas anything that the Bible teaches anything about, one way or other.

It was a reductio ad absurdum response to show the incorrectness of David8318's implied "If the Bible doesn't say to do it, it is necessarily unbiblical" argument.


David8318:

You keep talking about Christ vs. Belial, but do you believe we should remove T from the alphabet just because it was used to represent Tammuz? If so, why do you use it when you type? And if not, you just proved my point.
---StrongAxe on 12/22/17


Christmas isn't mentioned in the Bible?

Really?

Neither is the word 'Easter'.

The first Christmas is mentioned in the Bible as the first Resurrection.

//But the world at least for a little while speaks of Jesus and his love. Should we not be advocating for the world to hear about the love of Jesus?---Samuelbb7//

Excellent point

I also buy as many Madonna and Child postage stamps as possible and use them year round.

It's the ONLY WAY to get JESUS on a postage stamp.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/22/17


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Well personally I celebrate Christ's birth at Christmas time , despite the fact he was probably born some time in September or October . I do remind people in my life that I celebrate the most important event to happen for mankind , and I also remind people that I personally will not be over-indulging in food , drink or presents , I will however be going to Church on Christmas eve . This way I make sure people around me know my opinion about Christmas . How they see and do Christmas will be judged by God in the future .
---Nick on 12/22/17


strongaxe said, "Perhaps you are going to show us where Peter and Paul used their computers, and the internet, and blogs? Oh wait! They didn't! This must mean you should immediately throw your idolatrous computer into the trash, because anything that isn't explicitly in the Bible must necessarily be evil, right? At least that's what you're implying."

Strongaxe, explain how the use of computers, internet, and blogs is a matter of faith and practice for Christians???



---
---john9346 on 12/22/17


//computers, and the internet, and blogs?// strongax, and

//Every day of the week is named after Pagan gods//- Sambb7.

Again, comparing apples with oranges. These arguments are straw-man. Unlike xmas, computers, internet and days of the week are not specifically used in worship. Whereas, xmas is a religious pagan holiday used by pseudo-Christians to hijack Jesus' birth.

Honestly strongax, is that the best you can do? Your argument is 1st grade school yard reasoning. Why don't you pick up the Bible and read it!

Which part of this scripture do you not understand? "What sharing does Christ have with Belial... Come out from them [pagans] and be separate... Touch no unclean thing."- 2Cor.6:15,17.
---David8318 on 12/22/17


I have faced this fight against Christmas in my church.

It is a worthless false good for nothing fight.

Celebrating the Birth of Christ does not make you pagan or keeping a pagan day. Every day of the week is named after Pagan gods in English. Some languages call Saturday Sabbath.

But the world at least for a little while speaks of Jesus and his love. Should we not be advocating for the world to hear about the love of Jesus?
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/17


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David8318:

You wrote: Perhaps you are now going to show me where Peter & Paul celebrated Jesus' birth on Dec.25?

Perhaps you are going to show us where Peter and Paul used their computers, and the internet, and blogs? Oh wait! They didn't! This must mean you should immediately throw your idolatrous computer into the trash, because anything that isn't explicitly in the Bible must necessarily be evil, right? At least that's what you're implying.
---StrongAxe on 12/22/17


"You are wrong"... MonkBrendan.

//First, the Ancient Church that had Peter and Paul, etc, was not false at all//

I never said it was. Perhaps you are now going to show me where Peter & Paul celebrated Jesus' birth on Dec.25?

//Second, Emperor Constantine did not make Christianity the state church//

No, he made apostate Christianity [the Catholic-orthodox debacle] the state church.

//Third, Constantine did not bring Pagan things in//

Now this is laughable! Hello...MonkBrendan... sorry to burst your bubble, but Roman Emperor Constantine was pagan! He and his sycophant lap-dog Athanasius brought everything pagan into his RCC.

No... I'm reading the New Catholic Encylopedia.
---David8318 on 12/22/17


//most who.. celebrate Christians [Christmas?] ARE pagans//- strongax.

Yes there are many pagans masquerading as "pseudo-Christian" who have hijacked Christianity to spout pagan propaganda and push their filthy pagan practices on what is holy- namely Jesus' birth. To link Jesus with the pagan birth date of the false pagan Roman god "Mithra" and the pagan Roman Saturnalia celebration is an abomination and blasphemous!

I'm not assuming the "redefining of any pagan practice" as you arrogantly do. My authority is the Bible. An authority which you ignore.

"What sharing does Christ have with Belial... Come out from them [pagans] and be separate... Touch no unclean thing."- 2Cor.6:15,17.
---David8318 on 12/21/17


David8318:

That Tammuz's symbol looks like "T" does not mean everything in the world that looks like "T" stands for Tammuz. Symbols mean different things in different contexts, and it is wrong to assume something that means one thing in one context automatically means the same thing in every other context.

JWs say Christendom's cross is pagan. The fact that you say it doesn't mean it's so. Most Christians in the world say it isn't. I'm not redefining the Bible. YOU, however, are dividing the Body of Christ.

It is YOUR organization that adds additional things that MUST be believed in addition to the Bible. I have not done so, but you have.
---StrongAxe on 12/21/17


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//the Christian cross is pagan, because "t" represents the god Tammuz, doesn't it?// strongax.

Who is going off topic and hijacking this blog now? This was covered recently in the "Cross or an Upright Stake" blog.

Don't take my word for it. Google "images for symbols of tammuz". Think you're in for a shocker!

By the way, yes Christendom's cross is pagan. True Christians obey God's command, "Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry"- 1Cor.10:14.

But then again strongax- you've redefined the Bible!

"I warn everyone... if anyone adds anything to them... God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life"- Re.22:18,19 (NIV).
---David8318 on 12/21/17


David. I must have missed it. What church do you attend?
---NurseRobert on 12/21/17


David8318:

You wrote: True Christians don't celebrate any pagan holiday on December 25 and they certainly don't associate Christ with the pagan festival Satan's world celebrates on Dec.25.

You imply most who call themselves Christians and celebrate Christians ARE pagans. You use your own cult's divisive "we alone are TRUE Christians, and everyone else is not" narrative.

You and your church are self-appointed charlatans, presumptuously assuming you have the right to define what is "Christian" and what is not.

And YOU and YOUR cult are self-appointed judges, assuming YOU have the right to define what is "Christian" and what is not! Where does God instruct YOU to judge US?
---StrongAxe on 12/21/17


//Christians today are NOT pagan//- strongax.

I never said Christians were pagan. True Christians don't celebrate any pagan holiday on December 25 and they certainly don't associate Christ with the pagan festival Satan's world celebrates on Dec.25.

Who do you think you are to "redefine pagan practices to Christian ways now"!? How dare you! You and your church are self-appointed charlatans, presumptuously assuming you have the right to define what is "Christian" and what is not. Where does God instruct Christians to "redefine" pagan practices? Chapter and verse please!

You ignore what the Bible says:

"What sharing does Christ have with Belial"?- 2Cor.6:15. NONE!
---David8318 on 12/21/17


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//It's INTENT that makes a practice pagan or not//- strongax.

No it's not! A practice is pagan if it is a form of worship not commanded by God.

The Canaanites did not "intend" to be pagan. They were pagan! The Israelites who were commanded to drive them out were specifically told by God not to have anything to do with their pagan practices. God didn't tell Israel to "redefine" Canaanite pagan practices to conform to Judaism- did He?! Neither has God instructed Christians to "redefine" pagan practices today!

Paul quoting Is.52:11 instructs Christians at 2Cor.6:17, "Come out from them [pagans] and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." (NIV)
---David8318 on 12/21/17


David8318:

Christians today are NOT pagan. YOU compare apples with oranges, i.e. pagans who practice pagan practices vs. Christians whose ancestors were pagans centuries ago, but who are believers now, and whose practices may contains echos of pagan practices, but have been redefined in Christian ways now.

But it's the inhabitants that made Jerusalem either "pagan" or "holy", not Jerusalem itself.

Exactly. It's INTENT that makes a practice pagan or not. Your "unorthodox cult" also teaches the Christian cross is pagan, because "t" represents the god Tammuz, doesn't it? Why don't you also argue that? Because you know that doing so here would get you many more negative responses.
---StrongAxe on 12/20/17


//TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the topic//- strongax.

No it's not. You fallaciously draw the comparison with Jerusalem, Mordecai & Apollos which is off topic because neither were pagan, whereas I point out both the trinity, hellfire & immotal soul dogmas, like xmas are ALL pagan creations and not found in the Bible!

You still haven't shown where Mordecai is linked to "Marduk", or where Apollos celebrated xmas.

You pharisaically "choke on the gnat" [Jerusalem, Mordecai & Apollos are pagan], yet you "gulp down the camel" [believing in pagan trinity, hellfire, immortal soul & Xmas"]- Mt.23:24.

There are no camels on the buffet because you've eaten the lot!
---David8318 on 12/21/17


//What was pagan THEN is no longer necessarily pagan NOW//- strongax.

But the Canaanites remained pagan. You are comparing apples with oranges. You're trying to compare Jerusalem with the xmas celebration, "What was once pagan can be holy" you say. But it's the inhabitants that made Jerusalem either "pagan" or "holy", not Jerusalem itself. No doubt the expelled Canaanites remained pagan. But the Israelites who moved in didn't take up Canaanite paganism, neither did moving into Jerusalem make them pagan.

Yours is a straw man argument!
---David8318 on 12/20/17


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David 8318 said, "False Christianity (Catholic-orthodoxy): as founded by pagan Emperor Constantine who included all that is pagan."

You are wrong on so many levels it is almost laughable.

First, the Ancient Church that had Peter and Paul, etc, was not false at all. It is still the Bread of Life for millions of Christians all around the world. Second, Emperor Constantine did not make Christianity the state church. He merely made it legal. Third, Constantine did not bring Pagan things in. That was done by Jack Chick. And you've been reading "The Death Cookie," right?
---Monk_Brendan on 12/20/17


David8318:

My point about Jerusalem was that something that HAD ONCE BEEN abominable was converted into something that was NO LONGER abominable. What was pagan THEN is no longer necessarily pagan NOW. (It's also hard to keep up, with you replying 4 times to one message.)

Trinity, hellfire, and immortal soul are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the topic of this discussion - i.e. whether CHRISTMAS is pagan. You are ONLY throwing them into this discussion to stir divisiveness and discord between your "unorthodox cult" (JWs) and almost all other Christians. If you want to discuss THOSE doctrines, feel welcome to create another blog topic specifically for them, but don't hijack this one. This buffet doesn't have camels on the menu.
---StrongAxe on 12/19/17


//symbols are pagan... Jerusalem was a pagan city... (no it was occupied by pagans) Mordecai and Apollos also "pagan"//- strongax.

But lets add to Strongax pagan list:

THE TRINITY: a pagan method of worshipping gods in groups of three- originating in ancient pagan Egypt.

HELLFIRE: pagan origin found in all false religions including Islam. Used by false religious leaders to control people.

IMMORTAL SOUL: a pagan belief finding popularity among Hellenic philosophers such as Plato.

False Christianity (Catholic-orthodoxy): as founded by pagan Emperor Constantine who included all that is pagan.

But strongax is prepared to "gulp down the camel"!- Mt.23:24.
---David8318 on 12/19/17


**//Jerusalem was a pagan city, later became the Holy City//- strongax.

Yes perhaps it was. It had been made unclean by Canaanites. **

Actually, Jerusalem had been FOUNDED to start with by Canaanites. It was ALWAYS a pagan city until David chose it for his capital.

What sharing do YOU have with Christ, David?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/19/17


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//Jerusalem was a pagan city, later became the Holy City//- strongax.

Yes perhaps it was. It had been made unclean by Canaanites. The Israelites drove out the Canaanites from the land under instructions from God. They didn't embrace the pagan celebrations as you do today!

What you have done is the complete opposite! You have taken something holy (ie.christianity) and sullied it with the false religious pagan Roman Saturnalia celebration!

Had you been there at the time no doubt you would have fallaciously reasoned with Joshua and the Judges of Israel, "aren't you choking on the gnat?!"

The acid test is what does God require? "What sharing does Christ have with Belial"?- 2Cor.6:15.
---David8318 on 12/19/17


//Jerusalem was a pagan city, later became the Holy City//- strongax.

Yes, was is the operative word. It had been made unclean by Canaanites. The Israelites drove out the Canaanites from the land as directed by God (Num.21:1-3,34,35). They didn't embrace pagan celebrations as you do today!

What you have done is the complete opposite! You have taken something holy (ie.Jesus' birth) and sullied it with the pagan Roman Saturnalia celebration!

Had you been there at the time no doubt you would have fallaciously reasoned with Joshua and the Judges of Israel, "aren't you choking on the gnat?!"

The acid test is what does God require? "What sharing does Christ have with Belial"?- 2Cor.6:15.
---David8318 on 12/19/17


//Many symbols we use had pagan origins//- strongax.

What symbols?

//Jerusalem was a pagan city//- Show me where the Israelites adopted pagan celebrations in their worship?

//Mordecai (named after pagan god Marduk)//- doubtful, but show me where Mordecai used pagan celebrations

//Appolos were named after Greek gods//- show me where Appolos or any 1st Century Christian celebrated Xmas. Apollos may previously have been part of the pagan world, but he evidently abandoned paganism.

The acid test is whether you are prepared to drive out anything which is blatantly pagan in your worship. The Israelites did. The 1st cent. Christians did. Xmas is a false religious celebration and should be called out for what it is.
---David8318 on 12/19/17


David8318:

As does your "unorthodox cult".

Many symbols we use had pagan origins. So what? What's important is that they aren't used that way NOW. Jerusalem was a pagan city, later became the Holy City. In Ruth, Mordecai (named after pagan god Marduk) was the hero. Some NT people (e.g. Appolos) were named after Greek gods. In English, many days and months are named after Roman gods.

The acid test is, "Do these things lead people into paganism?". Ask yourself how many people who celebrate Christmas (and I don't mean the modern commercialized materialistic corruption of it) do so to ACTUALLY celebrate pagan gods. I don't think you'll find many.

Arguing over this is choking on gnats.
---StrongAxe on 12/18/17


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//Any connection with Saturn is totally imaginary. You should be more discerning about where you get your historical information// -Cluny.

What could be more discerning than the "Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America":

"We find the origin of the Nativity not in the historical facts available concerning the birth of Christ, but... in the pagan Roman world. It became the feast of Sol Invictus (the Unconquerable Sun). It was popularly celebrated in Rome during the last two weeks of December as Saturnalia... Thus the feast of Christmas was born."

Cluny may live in denial, but at least his unorthodox cult recognises its pagan roots.
---David8318 on 12/18/17


//So are the names of the days of the week//

But are the names of the days of the week specifically used to celebrate Jesus in anyway?

Sambb7 knows "Christmas" is pagan and yet deliberately associates what he knows to be pagan with our Lord Jesus Christ.

"What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?"- 2Cor.6:15 (NIV).

Be aware of false christians who deliberately lead others into paganism.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves"- Mt.7:15 (NIV).

Sambb7 has a sheeps covering- he says xmas is "nice". But inwardly he will lead you into paganism.
---David8318 on 12/18/17


True Christmas celebrations are based on Paganism. So are the names of the days of the week.

So what. We don't celebrate it as a Pagan holiday. So it is just nice to have.

Merry Christmas.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/17/17


//Christ mass was a pagan creation//

The false "Christmas" celebrated today is pagan and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The heavy drinking, overeating and over-commercialised gift giving is not encouraged by the Bible, but by the pagan merry makers of yester-year. Even Satan Claus (or is it Santa Claus?) is pagan. December 25 is the most important date on the pagan calendar. Even if the Bible told us the date of Jesus' birth, pagans would still celebrate December 25.

Jesus was born 15 months after the priestly "Division of Abijah"- Luke 1:5 (May/June). 6 months into Elizabeth's pregnancy with John, Mary fell pregnant with Jesus (Luke.1:26). 9 months later, Jesus was born (Sep/October).
---David8318 on 12/17/17


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Christ never told us the exact day he was born, although you can calculate the month pretty well. Doesnt that bother you when someone hides their birthday just so you wont throw them a party? (Hint: Its not in December.)
---michael_e on 12/12/17


Using a so-called pagan day for a good purpose is not pagan.

But it is pagan to claim any day to belong to Satan and his kingdom!!!!

Because every day belongs to Jesus, for His purpose, because Jesus Christ is the Lord of all.

And what was meant for evil God is able to use for His good, like He did with the situation of Joseph > Genesis 37-50.

So, our attention needs to be with God and all He is doing.

"Test all things, hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Test each thing for the good which God can do with it.
---Bill on 12/12/17


Sir, your thinking is totally incorrect. The Nativity feast has nothing at all to do with pagans. in French, "Noel" is the word, for instance. I read where Cluny listed several others.

Saturnalia, which is what you are thinking about, IS a pagan feast in Rome, But by the end of the fourth century, it had been eradicated.
---Monk_Brendan on 12/12/17


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