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Without Law No Sin

In (Romans 4:15) Paul says without the Law there can be no sin. Now since many folks believe they are not under the Law, living their lives without the Law, do you believe this is this why John said in (1 John 3:9) those born of God can not sin?

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Samuel, yes, The Law is the knowledge of sin. And under the law was the YEARLY atonement for sins only COVERED for a year. Today Jesus is not sacrificed over and over for our sin. And His sacrifice and shed Blood is sufficient for ALL SIN for all man. Again showing no such thing as LIMITED ATONEMENT.

But having all that does not mean we are now sinless, anymore than unbelievers are sinless. I believe it means when we sin, we confess our sin, and because of His already sacrifice, He IS faithful and Just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

HAZ, again, we are not saved by confessing sin...we are saved by our faith in Jesus death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/17


1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. THE TRUTH IS NOT IN UNBELIEVERS TO BEGIN WITH wake up Haz27....THINK.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Haz27, 1 John was written to Christians, is not a book on HOW to become saved. We are saved by believing Jesus died and rose again for our sin. 1 John is about our walk AFTER we are born again. Confessing our sin .... Just think about it. Where is salvation taught that is is solely on confessing our sin? It's not. No one is saved because they confessed sin ONCE, and walla, their sinless?????? Where is that taught Haz27?
---kathr4453 on 12/29/17


KATHR. Again you're still unable to justify your doctrine that Christians sin.

You quoted 1Thess 5.23. Looking at the way you present your understanding of it, is your physical body BLAMELESS?
If not then are you so bad that God is unable to preserve your body BLAMELESS?

As for being spiritual, scripture differs with you. See 1Cor 15.43-45.

As for the physical body, its described as LOWLY (Phil 3.21), and will be transformed.
And to receive this transformation then we need to win that good fight of faith to believe on JC, remaining in him, and thus BLAMELESS.

DAVID. If you agree Paul and JC are preaching the same gospel, then why do you mix works of law with grace? You should heed the warning in 2Pet 3
---Haz27 on 12/28/17


Mark and Kathyr good point.

The purpose of the law is to define sin. Nor is the law gone because of Grace.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2. The law does not save. Its job is to define sin. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Law tells us we are sinners. We are told how to be saved by Jesus Christ.

Paul and Jesus agree. When people teach they don't they are teaching falsely.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/28/17


1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

haz27, This verse alone rebukes your idea that the body alone is the old man, already flawed, and crucified with Christ ...and that today we are ONLY SPIRITUAL.

But scripture NEVER teaches that Haz27, as this verse above proves that fact.

You are teaching GNOSTICISM. BEWARE FOLKS OF HAZ27 false doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/17




Many don't agree with much of your teaching Steveng, but don't insult you. Some do, but some don't. But maybe now I should start...what do you say?
---kathr4453 on 12/28/17

I would say, teach without insulting. Provoke the student to curiosity, not anger. Show correction with kind words.

Remember the wisdom of Solomon:

Prov. 15:1 "A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger"

Prov. 15:14 "The mind of the intelligent seeks knowledge,
But the mouth of fools feeds on folly"

Prov. 15:18 "A hot-tempered man stirs up strife,
But the slow to anger calms a dispute"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/28/17


DAVID. The gospel that both Jesus and Paul preached are consistent with each other.---Haz27 on 12/28/17

Haz
Didnt say they werent, only most choose to preach Pauls epistles and not from Christs Gospel. The reason is, Paul was merely human and they find it easy to twist his words, twisted to their own destruction.

Remember the warning given in (2 Peter 3:15-17) to folks who made the same mistake as you do now.
---David on 12/28/17


DAVID. The gospel that both Jesus and Paul preached are consistent with each other.

I suspect you have been lured by a religion that is renowned for rejecting the writings of Paul.

You have seen from the scriptures I've quoted how our works are to believe on Jesus (John 16:9), which is consistent with God's will (John 6:40), and the command of Jesus (John 3:16), which is all consistent with the letters from Paul.

God's word says you cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

Jesus said in Matt 16:6 beware the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, (speaking of the doctrine of hypocrisy, self righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12).
---Haz27 on 12/28/17


Steveng, here's the problem with your post....go back and re-read. You make it sound like a cold heart is inherited. A careful reading of Hebrews 11 dispute your belief.

Also, a deeper understanding of Genesis 3:15 will show God chose Israel to be MORE than just a light to the nations, but where the promise of the messiah was also to come through. And as God REVEALS MORE AND MORE, say through Abraham and so on, we also see the Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 will come through the line of Judah. There are MANY REASONS God chose Israel, and much more to be fulfilled for Israel.

Many don't agree with much of your teaching Steveng, but don't insult you. Some do, but some don't. But maybe now I should start...what do you say?
---kathr4453 on 12/28/17


Haz27, did you know your teaching borders GNOSTICISM. Especially the part that since our old man is dead to sin....we can do anything we want with it, without consequences.

Your doctrine is heresy. You take truth and DISTORT.

Believe what YOU want Haz27. But WE don't have to believe your heresy.

Scripture in the NT with Peter, Paul, James , John are constantly WARNING US .

We need those warnings Haz27...., but it sounds like you don't.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/17




KATHR, SAMUEL. Christians abide in Christ, as we see described in Gal 2:20, Col 3:3, 1Cor 6:17.

With this FACT in mind, why would you then say that those in Christ sin? That's to say there is sin in Christ.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8:36. That's why 1John 3:9 says Christians CANNOT sin.

This is not to say we're physically perfect. Instead it means we're SPIRITUALLY perfect, being in Christ.

As for the flawed physical body, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because if sin, Rom 8:10.

We should see ourselves now as the new creation, in Christ. And in him there is NO SIN, 1John 3:5.
---Haz27 on 12/27/17


kathr4453 wrote: "Please KNOW the difference."

After reading many of your posts, please take a six month sabbatical and read the bible with the help of the Holy Spirit. Read the bible through the eyes of a child for better understanding what was written 2,000 years ago - not understanding using today's worldly knowledge.
---Steveng on 12/27/17


Haz
Most folks believe in God the way you do. I was raised in it too. What the no works doctrine brought me, was unbelief. Today, I do believe in God. My belief did not come by way of reading the Bible, or by way of a preacher. I became a believer through a relationship with God.

I tried doing what Jesus taught in the Gospel, though not knowing the Gospel of Christ, and God responded to what I was doing.
How did I know the Gospel?
Though I didnt understand at the time, I was being commanded by the Holy Spirit. After a few months I did start reading the Bible, and I discovered everything I was being taught, was written in the Gospel of Christ.

Have you ever noticed, no one in the Bible teaches from the Gospel of Paul?
---David on 12/28/17


Haz27, spiritual adulters are NOT unbelievers. James is talking to BELIEVERS. That's like saying your next door neighbor's wife is committing adultery against you.......without being MARRIED. WRONG?

Spiritual adultery can only be committed by those who are spiritually MARRIED TO CHRIST. It's calling out CHRISTIANS who are still in friendship to this world....And have not overcome the world.

That's YOU Haz27, in love with the politics of the world, and calling names to those WHO keep telling you to obey Colossians 3:1-4.... and because you don't get it, you call them NAZI LEFTY MARXISTS. Your obsession with the world Haz27 IS SPIRITUAL ADULTRY AKA SIN. Also assaulting verbally other believers is also SIN. REPENT HAZ!
---kathr4453 on 12/28/17


There is no sin in Christ Haz27. To suggest such a thing or accuse another of saying that only shows again how little you really know.

Do you think Jimmy Swaggarts fall into sin was not sin? Do you believe bad company CAN corrupt good morals? Scripture states so....and it has nothing to do with saying Jesus has sin Him. YOU'RE NOT JESUS Haz27.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/17


We are saved by believing in Lord Jesus Christ.

But were to not live in sin.

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What is the job of the law.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So the law tells us we are sinners. But cannot save us. That is why the law points us to Jesus.

Galatians 3:24,25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,...

When we accept Jesus the law of GOD is written in our hearts. Hebrews 8.8,10

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/17


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DAVID. Our works is BELIEVE ON JESUS, John 6.29.

Christians show their love for others by sharing gospel to lost, who are:
SPIRITUALLY hungry/thirsty lacking JC our SPIRITUAL food/drink, 1Cor 10:3,4,
SPIRITUALLY naked who lack garment of salvation, Isa 61:10,
SPIRITUAL strangers, from the covenants of promise. Eph 2:12,19.

KATHR.You've failed to justify the doctrine you follow that Christians sin. You even suggest there's sin in Christ, when 1John 3:5 says there's no sin.

James 5:16 refers to Christ's call that we forgive 7x70.
James 4:17, read context first to see what "good" is. It speaks to SPIRITUAL adulterers (unbelievers) judging others by works of law. The good we're to do is believe on JC.
---Haz27 on 12/27/17


Steveng, I was referring to Romans 5. The Law of Moses was not until Moses. Or else Cain would have been punished BY DEATH, for killing his brother. And no law of Moses sent anyone to NOD with a mark for murder. Please KNOW the difference.


Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/17


Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Yes the conscience of man, even fallen man KNOWS RIGHT FROM WRONG. No such thing as total depravity. That's why Abel sacrificed ...before the Law of Moses, pointing to himself a sinner and the promised savior to take away sin. Abel OBEYED GOD, ....acknowledging himself a sinner.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/17


kathr4453 wrote(?): "Adam to Moses there was no LAW...."

On the contrary, there was the law. It was written upon the hearts of men. Over time, men's hearts grew cold as stone. The law needed to be literally written out so man can read it.

God then chose the jews to bring God's word to the world. They failed thinking it was only for them.
---Steveng on 12/26/17


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DAVID. Eph 2:8 by GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.---Haz27 on 12/26/17

Haz
True, but didnt James say Faith without deeds has no value? If your saved by Grace, through faith, doesnt the faith by which we are saved have value?

How do you reconcile what James taught about faith in (James 2) with your no works doctrine?
---David on 12/27/17


haz27, Hebrews 11:4.No one was Born of the Spirit then, and no symbolic analogy is used to show anything BUT obedience vs disobedience. Even Cain was given a second chance to do what was right.

James also says, TO CHRISTIANS, ...." confess your sins AKA FAULTS one to another that you may be HEALED". AGAIN IS NOT AN ALTER CALL TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Our old SIN nature CAN rear its ugly head, if we do not walk in the Spirit and DIE DAILY.

But how wonderful it is to know there is no sin to horrible God won't forgive, or hasn't already forgiven.

It could be Roy Moore is much like Haz27, who refused to confess his sins of the past, believing he is sinless ( and self righteous) and it came back to bite him.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/17


KATHR. Only Jesus, our teacher (Matt 23.8) gives spiritual understanding. Whilst I share what JC has revealed to me, only JC, the teacher, can give you understanding.

Abel symbolizes the spirit. Abel gave the sacrifice of the first born of his flock. Likewise we Christians died to self, where our old physical man (the first born 1Cor15.42-47) was crucified with Christ (Rom 6.6).
As Christians, the new spiritual creation, we now give the SACRIFICES OF PRAISE (Jer 33.11. Heb 13.15 ).

Cain symbolizes the flesh, which offers works of self righteousness.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8.36, hence why scriptures like 1John 3.9 says we CANNOT sin.

Trust in JC our teacher to eventually give you understanding.
---Haz27 on 12/26/17


haz27, Adam to Moses there was no LAW....Romans 5. Yet Abel sacrificed. Sacrifice pointed to the promised Savior, announced in Genesis 3:15. So even before the LAW, sacrifices were made for SIN..BY GENTILES.

Sooooo, NOW that we are saved... when we SIN, "If We confess our sin, ( Christians) He is faithful and just to forgive our sin( BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY PUT OUR FAITH IN HIM) and to CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness.

This verse is not the GOSPEL ....(The Gospel ,is to believe in Jesus death and resurrection, 1Corin 15:1-4)
TWO entirely different matters, ..... Showing Christians DO SIN, but are promised forgivness and cleansing....notice its not promising ETERNAL LIFE.....BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE THAT.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/17


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DAVID. Eph 2:8 by GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

This confirms words of JC in John 3:16.
The 2 commandments of JC are seen in 1John 3:23:
1: BELIEVE ON JESUS, John 3:16.
2: LOVE OTHERS, John 13:34

KATHR. Christians fight the good fight of FAITH, keeping the commandment to BELIEVE ON JESUS (1Tim 6:12,13). Walking in the Spirit is to continue believing on JC, thus covered by Christ's sinlessness, meaning we cannot sin (1John 3:9).

To resurrect the old man of unbelief, to live in the flesh, is to reject JC, resulting in spiritual death (Rom 8:13).
For example turning back to righteousness by works of the law, or even mixing grace with works, is unbelief (sin).
---Haz27 on 12/26/17


JOSEF. Amen! We've been cleansed and now theres no more conscience of sin.

KATHR. Abraham, Israel, Job were not mentioned as Jews. But Job was son to Issachar, son of Israel. God even described Job as His servant.

And until Christ's sacrifice that totally purged us from sin, burnt offerings had to be constantly made under the law for sin, Heb 10.

Unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17), and Gentiles without law perished without law because they were unrighteous (sin), Rom 2:12.

If you believe on Jesus, then you've been totally cleansed in your SPIRITUAL position in Christ, with no more conscience of sin.
As for the flawed physical body, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
---Haz27 on 12/26/17


Scripture confirms scripture, hence we see the CONSISTENT message to believe on JC. And we cannot mix works of the law with grace (Rom 11:6) as thats unbelief.---Haz27 on 12/25/17

Haz
Your doctrine is founded upon, your perception, of Pauls teaching on Grace. Paul says repeatedly, his doctrine is founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If your doctrine of Grace is founded on the Gospel of Christ, can you show me where Jesus taught Grace, the one received without works?

Though Jesus never used the word Grace, he taught how its received in (John 14:21). Isnt it Interesting, how folks who claim to teach the Gospel of Christ, found their teaching on the word GRACE, when its a word, Jesus never used in his Gospel?
---David on 12/26/17


Here's the problem Haz27, yes the blood of Jesus washed away our sin, but it did not wash away our old man. And as long as we are in this world Romans 8:11-13 state IF WE through the Spirit do MORTIFY AKA: put to death) the deeds of the body YE shall live.

So in fact Paul also teaches we are to DIE DAILY. And in this area of discussion tells us not to BOAST.

I believe the letter in Revelation to the last Church is about this very issue. Thinking you are all that, when you are not. The Lord here is dealing with Christians, not lost people. Those who think they are all that, just may end up LEAST in the Kingdom Reign with Christ. We'll see.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/17


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1 Thessalonians 4:6

6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned.


Here Paul is talking to Christians. So again please don't take Romans 8 out of context and THINK nothing can be laid to your charge because you are incapable of sin. If that were actually so, no such verses like the one in 1 Thesselonians 4:6 would exist.

When we're in Heaven, ....THEN no such verses or rules will exist. We won't need to DIE DAILY EITHER.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/17


I'm resending this post to correct the obvious mistakes.
I know this question was directed to Hays, but if I may, The word no in 1 John 1:8 is the same [Greek] word, "ou", translated not in verse 10, and in over a thousand other places in the [N.T.], and It is my belief that it should have been translated that same way in verse 8. How did I come to that conclusion? Simple, by a plain reading of verse 7 and 9. If we are truly cleansed, and as believers we are, from all sin, there can be logically no sin remaining. And the worshippers once purged of sin should have had no more conscience of sins.
---Josef on 12/25/17


These sins do not apply to Christians, as we're not under law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18), hence not under it's jurisdiction (Rom 3:19) therefore cannot be charged with it's transgression.
---Haz27 on 12/19/17

Here's another WRONG statement.
1) GENTILES WERE NEVER UNDER THE LAW. So are you saying that Gentiles are without sin? How can a Gentile believe Jesus died for their SIN if they have no sin? You distort scripture. Now I already answered this to David using Romans 5. And you really must ask yourself, Why did Job, a Gentile, "sacrifice" for the SINs of his sons, when Job was not under the law? Not one verse in Job says anything about the Law or the sabbath....but Job, like Abel still SACRIFICED. EXPLAIN.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/17


"How do you reconcile 1 John 3:9 with 1 John 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."---StrongAxe
I know this question was directed to Hays, but if I may, The word no in 1 John 1:8 is the same hebrew word, "ou", translated not in verse 10, and in over a thousand other places in the O.T., and It is my belief that it should have been translated that same way in verse 8. How did I come to that conclusion? Simple, by a plain reading of verse 7 and 9. If we are truly cleansed, and as believers we are, from all sin, there can be logically no sin remaining. And the worshippers once purged of sin should have had no more conscience of sins.
---Josef on 12/25/17


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AXE. Read context of 1John 1 to see who it speaks to.
1John 1.2,3. BEAR WITNESS, and DECLARE to you that eternal life........that which we have seen and heard we DECLARE to you, that you ALSO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP

Eternal life (John 3.16) is being declared to those who were like Paul was before conversion, thinking their position under OT law was blameless (Phil 3.6).

1John 3.8,9, says those who sin are of the devil, whilst Christians CANNOT sin.

A Christians SPIRITUAL position, in Christ (Gal 2.20, Col 3.3, 1Cor 6.17), means we cannot be charged with sin as we are covered by Christs sinlessness, etc.
And remember there is NO SIN IN CHRIST, 1John 3.5.
To say that Christians sin is to say there is sin in JC.
---Haz27 on 12/25/17


AXE. JC is the only teacher (Matt 23.8, 1John 2.27), so why put your trust in mans theological rules, etc? Trust in JC instead.

You admitted you dont understand Matt 25, James 2, thinking they must be taken only in physical terms (in spite of 1Cor 2.14 saying its SPIRITUAL), which then seems to contradict the gospel, John 3.16.

All I can do is offer scripture showing SPIRITUAL descriptors.
HUNGRY/THIRSTY are the lost who lack JC our spiritual food/drink (1Cor 10:3,4).
NAKED are the lost lacking garments of salvation (Isa 61:10).
STRANGERS are the lost, being strangers from covenants of promise (Eph 2:12,19).
COLD WATER = gospel (Prov 25:25).
PREACHING GOSPEL TO LOST fits Matt 25, James 2, Matt10:42
---Haz2u on 12/25/17


Correction to prior post, this line was meant to read The word no in 1 John 1:8 is the same [Greek] word, "ou", translated not in verse 10
---Josef on 12/25/17


KATHR. What sin do you claim Christians can still be charged with?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect?

1John 3:9 says we CANNOT sin.
1Pet 4:1 says we've CEASED from sin.
1 Pet 4:18 describes ONLY 2 groups.
Group 1: Righteous, saved.
Group 2: Sinner, ungodly.
Gal 2:15 describes Christians as Jews by nature (Rom 2:28) and NOT sinners.

There is NO SIN in Christ, 1John 3:5. You agree?
Christians abide in Christ, Gal 2:20, Col 3:3. You agree?

Knowing that Christians are one IN CHRIST, why would you then say that Christians sin when there is NO SIN in Christ?
---Haz27 on 12/25/17


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Haz27:

How do you reconcile 1 John 3:9 with 1 John 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
which was written by one Christian to other Christians?

Ive shown you scripture confirming the SPIRITUAL descriptors for Matt 25, James 2. Thus you have seen how preaching the gospel fits perfectly.

That "scripture must be spiritually discerned" in no way says WHICH scriptures are meant literally and which ones aren't. Standard rules of exegesis are to take what scripture says at face value EXCEPT when there is an OBVIOUS reason why that cannot be done (e.g. "I am the vine" didn't mean Jesus was a plant).
---StrongAxe on 12/25/17


DAVID. Scripture confirms scripture, hence we see the CONSISTENT message to believe on JC. And we cannot mix works of the law with grace (Rom 11:6) as thats unbelief.

BELIEVING ON JC is commanded John 3:16.
These are the WORKS we're to do, John 6:29.
It's the WILL OF GOD to BELIEVE ON JC, John 6:40, 1Thess 4:3.
We OVERCOME the world when believing on JC, 1John 5:5.
Unbelief in JC is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

As confirmation of this gospel, both the thief on cross and the woman in Luke 7 were saved by faith, BELIEVING on JC. Neither of them did good deeds or physical works

This is not just a few irelevant verses, as you allege. What objection do you have to God's clear gospel message?
---Haz27 on 12/25/17


Sin is defined as transgressing law, 1John 3:4.
Also defined as unrighteousness, 1John 5:17, and unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

These sins do not apply to Christians, as we're not under law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18), hence not under it's jurisdiction (Rom 3:19) therefore cannot be charged with it's transgression.

For Christians our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), as we believe on Jesus.

---Haz27 on 12/19/17

Here's what you said Haz27. Just because Christians today are not UNDER the Law, does not mean we're sinless. You really must read how the LAW ....after Paul was saved (positioned) showed him he was anything but blameless. Romans 7.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/17


Haz27, My POSITION in Christ is wonderful, I'm perfect, complete, Holy, Have eternal life, and so much more. BUT having that SECURITY IN CHRIST does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that all I have to do now is LOVE everyone, and WALLA, that's it. WRONG. And I sure don't go around telling everyone IM PERFECT, because even with that Paul states in Phil 3, we still need to GO ON TO PERFECTION. Philippians 3:10-14.

Take heed Haz27, you are not qualified to teach until the truth has been WROUGHT IN YOU....Phil 3:10 ALL OF IT, which without ALL OF IT, you are incapable of loving IN THE SPIRIT.

If you had, and if it was, your vicious name calling and self righteousness here would END.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/17


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KATHR. Any honest reading of my posts show that your claim that I run with just one scripture, is incorrect. I suggest you read my posts again to see MANY scriptures confirming that Christians CANNOT sin (speaking of our SPIRITUAL position in Christ), as 1John 3.9 states.

I agree with you that any scriptures that seem to contradict others requires further study to eventually clear up our misunderstanding.

You have been unable to explain how 1John 1.8 is not a contradiction of 1John 3.6-9, whereas I have.

But the fact remains JC is our only teacher (Matt 23.8, 1John 2.27), so its he that gives understanding. Keep trusting in Jesus, searching scriptures and he will give you understanding of 1John.
---Haz27 on 12/24/17


Haz27, here's your problem. You take ONE VERSE and reject all others, and only believe that one verse. That,s NOT how we study to show ourselves approved. Now we know other verses say Christians can sin, and there are may warnings. For one, we KNOW adultery IS SIN....and we know many Christians HAVE committed adultery, and have repented of that sin., and have been forgiven of that sin.

So when we have scripture that seems to contradict other scripture THEN we need to further study to understand exactly what verses mean. We know God does not contradict Himself. The problem is WE contradict scripture truth when we only pick and choose what verses we like and don't like. Just because you are now saved DOES NOT RE-DEFINE SIN .
---kathr4453 on 12/24/17


AXE. You NOW (subtly) admit you lack understanding on Matt 25, James 2, John 3.16, etc because they seem to contradict each other based on YOUR insistence for a PHYSICAL ONLY rendition of scripture. And this in spite of 1Cor 2.14, etc telling us scripture is SPIRITUALLY discerned.

Ive shown you scripture confirming the SPIRITUAL descriptors for Matt 25, James 2. Thus you have seen how preaching the gospel fits perfectly.

As I said before, even Atheists, Muslims, etc do good deeds to physically needy.
What differentiates Christians from them is we go much further by ALSO preaching the gospel to the SPIRITUALLY needy (the lost).
Atheists, Muslims help the physically needy, but they themselves are the SPIRITUALLY needy.
---Haz27 on 12/24/17


Haz is correct, you have to have faith both in Jesus and perform good deeds based on faith in Jesus.

Matthew 7:11 speaks about evil people doing good deeds and we know that evil people are not going to Heaven.

Then Jesus speaks in Matthew 7:21 of one knowing Jesus but not doing His Will not grant entrance into Heaven.

Both are required.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/24/17


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You need to find a way to reconcile all of these different perspectives, instead of insisting that one of them is right and explaining another one away by saying it means the opposite of what it says.---StrongAxe on 12/24/17

StrongAxe
This is the same point I try to make folks see. They create doctrines based on a few verses which can be molded to say what they want them to say, but ignore the majority of scripture which oppose their doctrine.

I try to show those which oppose these doctrines, in the hope they will see they can not be reconciled.
---David on 12/24/17


DAVID. Regarding Rev 20, the works we are judged on is BELIEVING ON JESUS. Jesus said these are our works, John 6.28,29.
This is consistent with Gods will(John 6.40), Christs command (John 3.16). And remember unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16.9.

AXE. You NOW argue scripture seems to contradict itself, with Matt 25, James 2 contradicting the gospel. But initially you argued only ONE position, of salvation based SOLELY on deeds, NOT on faith.

But Ive shown from scripture how there is no contradiction.

KATHR. 1John 3.9 says Christians CANNOT sin.
1John 1.2,3 DECLARES eternal life (John 3.16) so that those its addressing MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP.
I suggest you accept what scripture says.
---Haz2u on 12/24/17


AXE. I quoted you directly, saying the criteria determining salvation is SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith.-Haz27

(Revelation 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

Haz
According to the verse above, according to the eye witness testimony of John, is StrongAxe right or wrong?
---David on 12/24/17


Eternal life (John 3.16) is being declared in1John1, to those who were like Paul was before conversion, thinking that their position under the OT law was blameless (Phil 3.6).
---Haz27 on 12/23/17


You don't know that Haz27. John also may have been declaring that to Gentiles who were never under the law to begin with....seeing also,John 3:16 is addressed to WHOSOEVER, not just earthly Israel. I hardly think, since the Gospel was being taken to both Jews and Gentiles, that your specific verse in 1st John is addressed solely to those like Paul before his conversion. And not all Jews considered themselves blameless like Paul.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/17


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Haz27:

Quit repeating the same accusations over and over again. I heard you the first time. I EXPLAINED what I said, several times. I said that the criterion for salvation is SOLEY based on deeds, not on faith - IN MATTHEW 25. I didn't say that was the criterion everywhere else. John 3:16 and Matthew 25 and James are ALL in the Bible. You need to find a way to reconcile all of these different perspectives, instead of insisting that one of them is right and explaining another one away by saying it means the opposite of what it says.
---StrongAxe on 12/24/17


DAVID. Commandments of Jesus we keep are 1. Believe on him (John 3.16). 2. Love others (John 13.34). See 1John 3.23.

AXE. I quoted you directly, saying the criteria determining salvation is SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith.
If you now regret this, then its best to admit it instead of blaming God as if He made mistake.

As for 1John 1.8, note the context to see who it speaks too.
1John 1.2,3. BEAR WITNESS, and DECLARE to you that eternal life........that which we have seen and heard we DECLARE to you, that you also MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP

Eternal life (John 3.16) is being declared in1John1, to those who were like Paul was before conversion, thinking that their position under the OT law was blameless (Phil 3.6).
---Haz27 on 12/23/17


Haz27:

You wrote: SAMUEL. So do you really agree with the false gospel of AXE that salvation is SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith?

I never said salvation was SOLELY based on deeds - only that in the Matthew 25 description of the sheep vs. goats, in THAT PASSAGE, the selection is based solely on deeds.

1John 3:6-9 contradicts you. It says Christians CANNOT sin, and people who do sin (which means unbelief in JC) are of the devil.

Yet the VERY SAME John (a saved apostle, in the VERY SAME book (written to a Christian church), wrote:
1 John 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/17


(Luke 6:47-48) Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Haz
According to the parable above, do we do anything to build our house on a Rock? Jesus repeats the same teaching in the verse below, though it is not veiled in parable.

(John 14:21) 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
---David on 12/23/17


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AXE. Your flawed Eisegesis claims salvation is "SOLELY based on deeds, NOT ON FAITH". Thus you argue those REJECTING JC as Messiah, are saved by deeds.

BUT, according to Jesus (Luke 7:50), he said to woman who did NOT do good deeds, YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
Likewise thief on cross.

SPIRITUAL message is confirmed in scripture.
HUNGRY/THIRSTY are the lost who lack JC our spiritual food/drink (1Cor 10:3,4).
NAKED are the lost lacking garments of salvation (Isa 61:10).
STRANGERS are the lost, being strangers from covenants of promise (Eph 2:12,19).
COLD WATER = gospel (Prov 25:25).
PREACHING GOSPEL TO LOST fits Matt 25, James 2, Matt10:42.

BTW, I see you fail to understand Genesis too.
---Haz27 on 12/23/17


James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James, A book of instruction to those like Haz27, who grabbed his cheap grace and thinks he's sinless ...but believes he can say and do and act any way he wants. WRONG.

You're a loud clanging noise NOT OF GOD , so says 1Corinthians 13 , which shows someone BORN Again and walking in the Spirit in Contrast to you....WOW. Your speech is NOT filled with Grace either, and I see no Gifts given us in Ephesians 4 to you. Which one is yours? BULLYING is not one. Your pride and arrogance NOT of the Lord...IS SIN. There's no FRUIT. LOVE, JOY, PEACE LONG-SUFFERING GENTLENESS, KINDNESS etc.

Haz27, you're a cloud without water.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/17


SAMUEL. So do you really agree with the false gospel of AXE that salvation is SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith?

Do you really think ANTICHRIST Atheists, Muslims, etc receive salvation based SOLELY on deeds, whilst they deny JC as Messiah?

BTW, 1John 3:6-9 contradicts you. It says Christians CANNOT sin, and people who do sin (which means unbelief in JC) are of the devil.
I suggest you consider the context of 1John 1 & 2.
Your continue or habitual sin interpretation is a false doctrine without scriptural support.
Can you show from scripture what level of sin is deemed too much, exceeding Gods limit of forgiveness, and therefore deserving of hell.
Ive yet to find anyone who can justify such false doctrine.
---Haz27 on 12/22/17


Haz27:

One of the cardinal rules of Biblical exegesis is to assume that a passage means exactly what it says unless it's PLAINLY OBVIOUS that it doesn't (e.g. when Jesus called himself a vine). Do you believe Genesis 1 teaches that the earth was created in 7 literal 24-hour days? If so, wouldn't it be hypocritical to insist that Genesis 1 must be taken literally, while Matthew 25 must not be?

James 2:19 says faith, in and of itself, is worthless. You believe Jesus is God? So do demons - but it doesn't help them one bit.

In Matthew 10:42 and Mark 9:41, Jesus says anyone who gives a cup of water will have his reward - no fine print about "but only if he's a believer".
---StrongAxe on 12/22/17


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Haz. But we do sin.

1John 2:1,2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There some myself included who understand the word sin in 1 John to be continually living in sin.

I cannot prove it. But it goes along with what John says if we sin we need Jesus.

AGape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/17


AXE. It's seems you just contradict scripture and then stick your fingers in your ears singing "La, La, La....".
That will never help you gain understanding.

You've failed to justify your physical only rendition of Matt 25, James 2.

You've failed to explain away the contradiction your doctrine has with God's gospel.

You've failed to justify your false gospel that ANTICHRIST Atheists, Muslims, etc, who deny JC as messiah, are still somehow saved in spite of so many scriptures stating that without Christ they cannot be saved.

Again I suggest you actually offer justification for your false gospel, instead of deflection, obfuscation and unfounded claims.
---Haz27 on 12/22/17


Strong Ax and Richard agreement.

Love works. Matthew 25 is showing that just saying words without deeds is nothing. James says the same thing. Read 1 and 2 John. Same message.

Love works. Love fulfills the law because it doesn't break the laws of GOD. Romans 6, 13.

Romans 3:31 Paul writes the law is established. Hebrews 8:8,10 says the law of GOD is written in the heart of believers.

What are the Two Great Commandments on which all the laws and prophets are based?

Love GOD and love thy neighbor.

Merry Christmas to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/22/17


DAVID. Many have been influenced by man's tradition into thinking that Christians still "sin".

But scripture shows otherwise.

As Christians we're a new creation (2Cor 5:17), married to Christ (Eph 5:32) and thus one spirit with him (1Cor 6:17).

It's no longer we that live, but Christ lives in us (Gal 2:20).

Our life is hid with Christ in God, (Col 3:3).

And of note here is the truth that in Christ THERE IS NO SIN (1John 3:5).

Therefore Christians should not say that they still sin because that is to say that there is sin in Christ.
---Haz27 on 12/22/17


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Haz27:

You wrote: AXE. You're like the Pharisees, lacking spiritual understanding.

So do you.

I don't reject that scripture is spiritual. I just don't believe ALL scripture is spiritual. SOMETIMES scripture ACTUALLY means what it ACTUALLY says. It says Jesus was born of Mary. Jesus was ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY born of Mary. He was not some kind of "spiritually" born of her. You need discernment to know when things are actually what they say, which you seem to lack.

Again, I was just quoting Matthew 25. If you think that contradicts Luke 7:50, your quibble is with Jesus, not with me.
---StrongAxe on 12/21/17


1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and One mediator between God an men, the man Christ Jesus.

John 6:35 - And Jesus said unto them , I am the bread of Life : He that comes to me shall never Hunger: and he that believeth on me shall never thirst,

2 john 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God, He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ , He hath both Father and Son, -------->

James 2:26 - For a body without the spirit is dead , So Faith with out works is also dead,

John 14:15 - If you love me, keep my commandments.

( Doing good works is a part of Faith )
---RichardC on 12/21/17


AXE. You're like the Pharisees, lacking spiritual understanding.

I've shown you scriptures confirming that scripture is spiritual, but you reject God's word on this, insisting instead (without foundation) that they're physical.

You claim salvation is NOT based on faith, thus you contradict JC in Luke 7:50.

I quoted John 3:16, John 6:40, John 16:9, John 6:29, 1John 5:5, etc to highlight to you how your false gospel of " SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith", contradicts scripture.

Your claim that ANTICHRIST Atheist, Muslim, etc, who deny Jesus is the Christ, are saved SOLELY based on deeds, contradicts Matt 25, James 2, and all the scriptures I quoted above.
---Haz27 on 12/21/17


David, reread Romans 5. There was sin from Adam to Moses, but it was not Imputed to them, because there was no law at that time. HOWEVER there was DEATH, as a result of sin, as God made that clear to Adam and Eve right from the get go. The wages of SIN has always been death. So yes, sin was in the world before the Law....just as Romans 5 explains.

Also, the REASON God could not require death for Cain who KILLED his brother was because the law regarding such actions had not been established at that time. Cain was cast out and a mark put on him, but under the LAW of Moses no one was marked and sent to NOD. The " Thou shall not kill " was actually given to Noah. ...before the law of Moses.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/17


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Haz27:

You wrote: Thus you contradict the gospel of God's kingdom, the command of JC (John 3:16), the will of God (John 6:40), as your false gospel suggests that an ANTICHRIST Atheist, Muslim, etc receives salvation "SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith".

Please comment on WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE. I wrote that in MATTHEW 25, Jesus bases his division ONLY on WORKS. I didn't say John 3:16 says that, or any other passage, ONLY Matthew 25. If you can find any mention of gospel in Matthew 25, please share it.

You "spiritualize" that section to take something Jesus said very plainly, and make it say the exact opposite, just as the Pharisees did with Korban vs. "honor your father and mother".
---StrongAxe on 12/21/17


AXE. You described the selection criteria for salvation as being "SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith".

Thus you contradict the gospel of God's kingdom, the command of JC (John 3:16), the will of God (John 6:40), as your false gospel suggests that an ANTICHRIST Atheist, Muslim, etc receives salvation "SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith".

I've already explained to you who is first & last, sheep & goat, but, as Jesus said in Matt 13:14,15 about the natural man like you:
Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive


I suggest you seek JC the only teacher (Matt 23:8, 1John 2:27) who can give you SPIRITUAL understanding.

---Haz27 on 12/21/17


AXE. Again, scripture is SPIRITUALLY discerned (1Cor 2:14), hence why you lack understanding (as JC confirmed in Matt 13:13).

As your false gospel suggests ANTICHRIST Atheists, Muslims, etc are saved solely by good deeds, perhaps you can explain why scriptures contradict you.

Jesus said whoever denies him, he will deny them (Matt 10:32,33).

The thief on cross who called Jesus "Lord" went to paradise without doing any good deeds.

And don't forget how Jesus commanded we believe on him (John 3:16), and that this is the will of God (John 6:40), and unbelief in JC is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).

Scriptures contradict your false gospel? Why continue to stand by your false gospel??
---Haz27 on 12/21/17


Haz27:

Jesus frequently said those the first would be last, vice versa. Matthew 25 describes sheep who are rewarded because they fed the hungry, etc. The selection criterion between sheep and goats here is SOLELY based on deeds, NOT on faith. It's also clear these people are confused because they don't know why they are being rewarded. If they were all Christians, don't you think they would all KNOW and not need to ask? But they ask anyway, so clearly they don't know about Matthew 25. How do you explain this?

Jesus also said many would say "didn't we do great works in your name?" (thus CLEARLY "believers"), yet he says "depart from me - I never knew you". How is this possible?
---StrongAxe on 12/20/17


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DAVID. whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law Rom 3:19.

If you're not under the jurisdiction of the law of righteousness then sin cannot be charged.

Unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17). Christians cannot be charged with this sin as our faith in JC is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Unbelief in Jesus is sin (John 16:9). Christians believe on Jesus.

Thus we see that Christians cannot sin (1John 3:9).

This is not to say we're physically perfect (what some erroneously describe as Christians still "sin").
Instead it refers to our SPIRITUAL POSITION in Christ.
As for our flawed physical body, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with JC) because of sin (Rom 8:10)
---Haz27 on 12/20/17


These sins do not apply to Christians, as we're not under law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18), hence not under it's jurisdiction (Rom 3:19) therefore cannot be charged with it's transgression.---Haz27 on 12/19/17

Haz
This is what I am confused about. Sin is the transgression of the Law, but folks who believe they are not under the Law, still sin. How can they sin, when they are not under the Law, when you must break the Law in order to sin?
---David on 12/20/17


AXE. Your ambiguous reply shows you're still avoiding.

Your claim was salvation is based on good deeds regardless of being a Christian believing on Jesus.

I ask you to justify how could Atheist, Muslim, etc, who are ANTICHRIST (as they deny Jesus as messiah), be saved just by doing some ambiguous number of good deeds to the needy. You continue to avoid justifying your false gospel.

BELIEVING ON JESUS is command from Jesus, John 3:16.
It's the will of God, John 6:40, and the works we're to do, John 6:29. It's how we overcome the world, 1John 5:5.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Yet you discard these truths by saying that its only about good deeds.





---Haz27 on 12/20/17


faith: "For us, commandment law has been abolished and destroyed."

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


---Jerry6593 on 12/20/17


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Haz27:

You wrote: But you still have not offered justification for your gospel that those with ANTICHRIST views are still saved based on good deeds.

I am just going by what James said (i.e. faith without works is dead) and what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

Also, if you are going to throw the word 'antichrist' around, you need to fully understand what that word actually means. It is only mentioned by John, and defined thus:

1 John 2:22: he that denies that Jesus is the Christ
1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7: every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

I have done neither of these things.
---StrongAxe on 12/19/17


For us, commandment law has been abolished and destroyed. We each are to be the kind of person that needs no law to tell us how to be good.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
---faithforfaITH on 12/19/17


Sin is defined as transgressing law, 1John 3:4.
Also defined as unrighteousness, 1John 5:17, and unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

These sins do not apply to Christians, as we're not under law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18), hence not under it's jurisdiction (Rom 3:19) therefore cannot be charged with it's transgression.

For Christians our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), as we believe on Jesus.

In addition we obey Christ's command to love others (John 13:34), and love is fulfillment of law (Rom 13:10).

AXE. It's good to see you refer to Christ's command that we love others. But you still have not offered justification for your gospel that those with ANTICHRIST views are still saved based on good deeds.
---Haz27 on 12/19/17


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