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//Jews do it all the time when they read the Tanakh//- Cluny.

But the Jews kept God's name in the text! The issue with the Jews was about pronunciation, not Cluny's remove, change and twist policy.

//The NKJV renders the Hebrew YHVH as "LORD"//

Cluny needs educating as he doesn't know the difference between consonants and vowels. God's name is the Hebrew consonants YHWH. Cluny insists YHWH should be translated as "LORD". Y=L, H=O, V=R and H=D.

A 10 year old could tell you "H" is a consonant and is not equivalent to "O", a vowel.

Clear evidence the translators of the NewKJV deceitfully remove and change God's name. Cluny's insistence I will put down to childish ignorance.
---David8318 on 1/23/20


//The NKJV renders the Hebrew YHVH as "LORD"//- Cluny.

"Lord" is not God's personal name!

Have a look at Isaiah 42:8. Isaiah wrote his book in Hebrew. In verse 8, the Hebrew word "adonai" ['Lord'] does not appear. In verse 8, the Hebrew consonants "YHWH" are found- God's personal name -as the verse states.

Thus, careful scholars will translate this verse:

"I am Yahweh, that is My name" (Holman, WEB, Lexham)

"I am Jehovah, that is my name" (ASV, Darby, Youngs, Byington)

The NewKJV and many other translations remove and change YHWH all 6973 times to 'Lord' when adonai is not the original Hebrew word used.

WHY?
---David8318 on 1/22/20


//
On the other hand, changing God's personal name YHWH to adonai as trinitarians Cluny and StrongAxe advocate is a blatant abuse of scripture.//

Jews do it all the time when they read the Tanakh in their services. (Sometimes they might say Elohim or Ha Shem, depending on the context.)

Are they Trinitarians and abusing scripture?

Answer yes or no, and give scripture to back it up.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/22/20


The 2 trinitarians taking issue with God's name complain JW's use 'Jehovah' but then are hypocritically happy to use 'LORD' instead. I'm sure their hypocrisy is clearly evident.

Yes 'Yahweh' is closer to the rendering of YHWH. But everyone is happy with 'Jesus' despite the fact Yeshua is a more correct way. I don't hear StrongAxe complaining about the use of 'Jesus'!

God is not a pronunciation Nazi.

So JW's use of 'Jehovah' for God [YHWH], and 'Jesus' for the Son of God is purely because of people's familiarity with them.

On the other hand, changing God's personal name YHWH to adonai as trinitarians Cluny and StrongAxe advocate is a blatant abuse of scripture.
---David8318 on 1/22/20


Doesn't it bother you to tell lies... Cluny.

Cluny ought to be more concerned about the lies he is spreading about the Almighty God.

God specifically recorded his name in scripture. That name is recorded as the 4 Hebrew consonants YHWH. Some translate YHWH as 'YaHWeH', some use 'JeHoVaH'.

The Bible also uses the word 'Lord' either in Hebrew [adonai] or the Greek [kyrios]. Because 'Lord' is a title, 'Lord' can be applied essentially to anyone.

YHWH is not a title and is not applied to anyone in the Bible, other than Almighty God- because that is His personal name- Is.42:8.

Cluny thus lies about God when he agrees with the removal of God's name, and changing it to 'LORD' for false doctrinal reasons.
---David831 on 1/22/20




David831:

from introductory material on page 23 of 1969 edition of the Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, published by the Watchtower Society:

"While inclining to view the pronunciation 'Yahweh' as the more correct way, we have retained the form 'Jehovah' because of people's familiarity with it since the 14th century."

They KNOW "Jehovah" is wrong, but use it ANYWAY because it's more popular (even though they change popular "bishop" to "overseer" etc.) If your name was "Howard", yet some people called you "Harold" and told others to do the same because it's a more popular name, would you be impressed, or disgusted?
---StrongAxe on 1/21/20


David831:

Having an interest in knowledge is a good thing. Insisting others share it and condemning them when they don't is NOT. It's like Sabbatarians who worshiping on Saturday (not a problem) but insist everyone else should do so because Sunday worship is evil (IS a problem).

You focus on some translations. The TRINITARIAN Catholic Jerusalem Bible uses Yahweh. Use of God's name is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to Trinitarianism. These are totally separate issues.

And since there are ZERO extant NT documents with YHWH, insisting there used to be some IS creating a doctrine out of nothing.
---StrongAxe on 1/20/20


//The New King James version has removed God's name completely.//

WRONG AGAIN!

The NKJV renders the Hebrew YHVH as "LORD" all in caps, following the example of the 1611 one.

Doesn't it bother you to tell lies about others?

Or have you simply been misinformed?

FWIW, sometime in the last couple of decades, I saw a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into English. Where the Divine Name appeared, it had it in Hebrew, allowing the reader to either say it or use whatever circumlocution desired.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/20/20


//Why are you... SO OBSESSED//

I would say I'm passionate for knowing the truth.

It doesn't matter to me whether it's Yahweh or Jehovah, Yeshua or Jesus. Knowing God has a personal name is a discovery in itself.

Also knowing why some have removed God's name is also a revelation. It is everything to do with the pagan trinity dogma. The New King James version has removed God's name completely.

No where will you find false trinitarian expressions "trinity", "3 in one", "Jesus (or God) incarnate", "God the son, God the father, God the HS". These are all false man-made expressions designed to mislead.

Jehovah is God Almighty [YHWH], Jesus is the Son of God.
---David831 on 1/20/20


//So the Watchtower has created a doctrine//

Another ridiculous statement from StrongAxe.

So the Watchtower wrote these ancient manuscripts in existence today which contain God's personal name Jehovah [YHWH]? Suggesting such a thing would be in the realms of stupidity. The evidence is abundant- ancient manuscripts in existence today contain God's personal name- YHWH. StrongAxe needs to suck it up.

Either StrongAxe is in denial of the truth or he is complicit with the dangerous practice of removing God's personal name, and replacing it erroneously with a title such as adonai or kyrios all 6973 times!

A dangerous practice which anyone engaged in or complicit with must pay heed to Rev.22:19!
---David8318 on 1/20/20




David8318:

You wrote: None of the original NT manuscripts predating the 4th century exist today. So no one can for any certainty claim that God's name was not in the original NT manuscripts.

So the Watchtower has created a doctrine, and condemned all of Christianity for violating that doctrine, based on ZERO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER.

THIS is what we call cultism. Why are you people SO OBSESSED over this?

This also has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Trinity. KJV does include the word "Jehovah". Also, some other translations (like the Catholic Jerusalem Bible), leave Yahweh in everywhere, yet Catholics are trinitarians, which disproves your point.
---StrongAxe on 1/16/20


//YHVH is used nowhere in... LXX [Septuagint]//- Cluny.

Wrong- as usual.

In the Dead Sea scrolls- mid 1st century, just after the death of Jesus- Jehovah's name [YHWH] appears repeatedly.

The Fouad Inv.266 LXX manuscript, dating from the 1st century shows the Hebrew name for God YHWH in the Greek text.

Origen's Hexapla, the name for God YHWH appears in Hebrew in the Greek text.

The Nash papyrus- dated 1st to 2nd century- again God's name Jehovah [YHWH] appears in Hebrew in the Greek text.

I could go on! Greek writers were using YHWH in Greek writings of the 1st & 2nd centuries. the NWT is a stand alone Bible translation in restoring God's name to the Bible text.
---David831 on 1/16/20


//EVERY SINGLE NT MANUSCRIPT, God is called "Kyrios"//

What everyone should know is that NT manuscripts after the 4th century, God is called kyrios.

None of the original NT manuscripts predating the 4th century exist today. So no one can for any certainty claim that God's name was not in the original NT manuscripts.

What is without question is God's name, Jehovah [YHWH], was in Hebrew manuscripts and in the LXX- some of which can be examined today to prove.

The pagan trinity doesn't work when both God and his son have personal names- Jehovah and Jesus. It is no surprise then that trinitarians airbrush God's name out of the Hebrew and Greek for false doctrinal reasons.
---David8318 on 1/16/20


//if YHWH occurred in one LXX manuscript, it didn't occur in most//- StrongAxe.

How does StrongAxe know this? He doesn't! YHWH occurs in many LXX manuscripts.

//NEVER occurred in NT manuscripts//

How does StrongAxe know this? He doesn't. He is simply parroting trinitarian propaganda!

//Jesus and the Apostles were OK with this//

How does StrongAxe know this? He doesn't! Jesus made his Father's name "MANIFEST"- Jo.17:6. StrongAxe operates in opposition to what Christ did with God's name!

//why do you rail so much//

I don't. It was StrongAxe who first claimed JW's change words. JW's don't. I pointed out how JW's restore God's name where trinitarians have changed and removed it 6973 times!
---David831 on 1/16/20


David8318:

Even if YHWH occurred in one LXX manuscript, it didn't occur in most, and NEVER occurred in NT manuscripts. Jesus and the Apostles were OK with this. Why are you not?

I said "Yahweh" was a more correct pronunciation of the Divine Name than "Jehovah" is. I never INSISTED that it be used. The only people who INSIST on using the Divine Name are Jehovah's Witnesses, but thanks for deflecting.

If you refer to God by some name other than "Jehovah", because he obviously knows whom you're talking about, why do you rail so much when others do the same?
---StrongAxe on 1/16/20


//the Greek equivalent of YHVH is used nowhere in the NT, or in the LXX.//- Cluny.

Cluny really knows how to get things so badly wrong. God's name- YHWH -did appear in the Septuagint (LXX). Greek writers of Jesus' day did see God's personal name in the Hebrew text- and kept it preserved in the LXX in the form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton [YHWH]. So how does Cluny know it wasn't used in the NT?

Cluny will deny this fact until the cows come home, but anyone can examine an existing fragment of an early LXX manuscript to see God's name in all it's glory there in the text.

Do a search on: septuagint, Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, job 42:11-12, and click images. See for yourselves.

Cluny's in for a shock!
---David8318 on 1/15/20


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//bizarre cultists who INSIST on "YAHWEH"//- StrongAxe.

StrongAxe has previously insisted "Yahweh" should be used. Unusual for StrongAxe to refer to himself as a bizarre cultist. But we knew that anyway!

//your real-world father//

StrongAxe ridiculous reasonings are laughable. So when asked for his fathers name, StrongAxe replies, "human" or "man". He doesn't care about his fathers name. He has airbrushed his fathers name out as he has Jehovah's!

My fathers name is Michael, I refer to him as Dad. My Heavenly Father's name is JEHOVAH, I refer to him as "Abba".

Christians will agree with me, trinitarians won't.
---David831 on 1/15/20


David831:

In EVERY SINGLE NT MANUSCRIPT, God is called "Kyrios", not "YHWH", even when directly quoting the OT. This translation standard practice in the LXX, and was acceptable to the Apostles and all NT authors - yet for some reason it is not acceptable to the Watchtower Society. Do you think you are holier than they are? Why is this particular gnat SO important to you?

I'm curious why you come to this site. The only points you make here are bashing the Trinity, and bashing use of LORD for the Holy Name. You never seem to discuss any of the other Christian teachines, only divisive JW-specific ones.
---StrongAxe on 1/15/20


True. We are not to be worried about pronunciation. The point to be concerned is do we walk with GOD in love of him and others.

I was watching some bluegrass music. They played an old song If you you don't love your neighbor you don't love GOD. Long title good point.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/15/20


//translating the Name... is not a "corruption"//- StrongAxe.

This is StrongAxe fallacious understanding of the said Watchtower article.

Yes copyists made mistakes which didn't change fundamental Bible teachings. But it wasn't a mistake for unscrupulous and deceitful translators to completely remove God's personal name from Bible translations and change YHWH to Adonai or kyrios.

There is a difference between an honest mistake and the deliberate blatant removal of God's name, which was the thrust of the WT article.

StrongAxe will [as usual] try to pull the wool over peoples eyes with half quotes & half truths.

"You can fool all the people some of the time..."
---David831 on 1/15/20


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David8318:

Yes, most Christians (except some bizarre cultists who INSIST on "YAHUSHUAH") accept "Jesus" for the Son, just as most Christians (except some bizarre cultists who INSIST on "YAHWEH" or "JEHOVAH") accept "God" as for the Father.

If you speak to your real-world father, do you call him "Jack" or "Mr. Smith", or do you call him "Father" or "Dad"? Jews had a formal relationship with God. Christians have a close informal relationship with their father.

Everyone can see the ridiculousness of StrongAxe argument!

I don't see any here. You are projecting. MOST Christians in the world disagree with you.
---StrongAxe on 1/15/20


//God knows what we mean. He is not a Grammar Nazi//- StrongAxe.

God is not a Pronunciation Nazi either.

Yes, both 'Jehovah' and 'Jesus' are inaccurate. That's my point. But everyone accepts 'Jesus' as meaning God's son. Similarly 'Jehovah' is widely accepted as the personal name of the Almighty God. Pronunciation Nazi's will insist otherwise.

What Jehovah does care about is the complete removal of His name from Bible translations when it is blatantly in the original text. StrongAxe gulps down the camel, ignoring the fact that trinitarian translators have removed God's name all 6973 times and squeezes out the gnat as to how God's name should be pronounced.

Everyone can see the ridiculousness of StrongAxe argument!
---David8318 on 1/15/20


David8318:

I trust traditions and scholarship of the Jews, to whom scriptures were given and who had them for millenia, over Watchtower Society "scholarship", that has been around less than two centuries.

BOTH Jehovah and Jesus are inaccurate. Hebrew and Greek do NOT have a "J" sound. Watchtower scholars know this, but DESPITE THIS, they use "Jehovah". Why? BECAUSE THE EXACT PRONUNCIATION AND SPELLING ARE NOT IMPORTANT. God knows what we mean. He is not a Grammar Nazi.

Either God cares, or he doesn't. If he doesn't care, they are Pharisees for accusing us of getting it wrong. If he DOES care, they're hypocrites for using "JEHOVAH" 6973 times, knowing it's inaccurate. Which is it?
---StrongAxe on 1/14/20


//I was confirming what the tradition has been for thousands of years before Christ//- StrongAxe.

StrongAxe is suffering delusions of grandeur as he has no idea how God's personal name was pronounced 1000's years before Christ!

"Jehovah" is a valid name for YHWH just as "Jesus" is for YESHUA. Which is probably why the King James Bible uses JEHOVAH at Psalms 83:18 and in 4 other places. But StrongAxe ignores the central point- it's not the pronunciation of YHWH- it's using and recognising God's name rather than subsituting it 6973 times with an appellative title like "Lord". 6973 deceitful errors!

If 'Jehovah' is wrong, so is 'Jesus'.
---David8318 on 1/14/20


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Cluny:

JW propaganda claims some NT manuscripts write the Name, not as KYRIOS, but PIPI - what a Greek scribe unlearned in Hebrew would write when copying a manuscript with the Name in untranslated Hebrew form.

Google: "Jehovah's Witness" "PIPI"

"But none of those mistakes corrupted the Bible. ... So, has the Bible been corrupted. Emphatically, no!" Watchtower 2017 no.6 p.14.

"... no variations which affect vital facts or doctrines." Reasoning from the Scriptures p. 64

As they imply translating the Name (done in EVERY KNOWN MANUSCRIPT) is not a "corruption" or "error in vital facts", JWs are disingenuous in blaming others for it.
---StrongAxe on 1/11/20


//NWT is correct to restore God's name on every occasion it appears in the Hebrew & Greek text.//

Except for the fact that the Greek equivalent of YHVH is used nowhere in the NT, or in the LXX.

You can't restore something that never existed to start with.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan.
---Cluny on 1/10/20


David831(8):

I was confirming what the tradition has been for thousands of years before Christ.

You choke on the gnat that "LORD" is not an acceptable translation for YHWH, yet you swallow the camel and ignore the fact that "Jehovah" is not an acceptable translation either.

Don't accuse others of doing THE SAME THING you do. Remove the 6973 errors from your own translation before criticizing the 6973 errors in others'.

Colossians 1:16: "other" is NOT present in the Greek. The Greeks were intelligent enough to interpret context without being told. Why do you think English speakers are not?
---StrongAxe on 1/9/20


//So the name should pronounced Yahweh (or similar)//- StrongAxe.

So confirmation from StrongAxe that using 'LORD' or 'God' is not appropriate as these can hardly be regarded as "similar" to YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah)!

Again, confirmation that most translations have got it hopelessly wrong all 6973 times when God's personal name "YHWH" appears in the Hebrew text.

A similar rendering of Yahweh is JEHOVAH as used by such translations as the KJV & ASV.

NWT is correct to restore God's name on every occasion it appears in the Hebrew & Greek text.

NWT is also right to use "other" at Col.1:16. Otherwise, please explain who is creating "through" and "for" Jesus?
---David831 on 1/8/20


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//many anti trinity people have told be I am going to hell//- Samuelbb7.

They certainly were not JW's.

JW's do not believe in "hell" where false religion teach people burn for eternity and use the threat of "hell" to extort money from the laity.

Hellfire is not a Bible teaching and not taught or used as a threat by JW's.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jehovah God is a just and loving God. The thought of burning people in fire is something detestable to Him- Jer.7:31, 1Jo.4:8.
---David8318 on 1/8/20


//So the name should pronounced Yahweh//- StrongAxe.

That's StrongAxe opinion. In fact, no one knows the exact pronounciation of God's name.

A Dead Sea Scroll containing a portion of Leviticus in Greek transliterates the divine name Iao.

Early Greek writers also suggest the pronunciations Iae, I'abe', and I'aoue'.

The first rendering of God's personal name in an English Bible appeared in 1530 in William Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch. He used the form "Iehouah".

In 1930 scholar A. F. Kirkpatrick said: "the really important point is not the exact pronunciation, but the recognition that it is a Proper Name, not merely an appellative title like 'Lord'".
---David831 on 1/8/20


David8318:

You wrote: Trinitarians hide and remove God's name YHWH [Yahweh or Jehovah] from the text 6973 times for false doctrinal reasons. It would have been difficult for the trinity to develop if God's personal name, distinct from Jesus, was to remain.

Trinitarian Bibles have at least 6973 errors.


In YHWH, the Y is pronounced like Y, not like English J. The W is pronounced like W, not like English V. So the name should pronounced Yahweh (or similar), NOT Jehovah. The WTS knows this, yet insists on using the Jehovah name. Why? Because of their own erroneous traditions. The WTS has at least those same 6973 errors, so this is the pot calling the kettle black.
---StrongAxe on 1/2/20


//Not really//- Cluny.

Yes, really!

Yes I do know some translations have changed YHWH to appear as 'LORD' in the English text.

But 'LORD' is not a suitable replacement for God's name as it appears in the Hebrew text: the Tetragrammaton "YHWH".

The Hebrew Adonai and the Greek kyrios are accepted as the word "Lord" and translated as such in English. "LORD" does not do YHWH justice.

Trinitarians hide and remove God's name YHWH [Yahweh or Jehovah] from the text 6973 times for false doctrinal reasons. It would have been difficult for the trinity to develop if God's personal name, distinct from Jesus, was to remain.

Trinitarian Bibles have at least 6973 errors.
---David8318 on 1/2/20


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//the majority of which... superiority of the majority opinion//- StrongAxe.

You treat hypocrisy as if it were a virtue. Do you mean the subjective opinions you're making?

Which versions have you quoted? You've only quoted KJV. I have pointed to many versions which use "He" at 1Tim.3:16.

I doubt nobody in their right mind would willingly "join" a trinitarian sect if they were told where the pagan trinity came from. But of course, you guys baptise them when they're infants, so they can't use their own minds to decide for themselves. I'm wise to your pagan trinity dogma. Why would I swap Bible truth for the pagan trinity?

There were only 8 in the Ark. "Majority opinion" means nothing.
---David8318 on 1/2/20


//usage of "other"//- StrongAxe.

"Other" has every right to be in the text at Col.1:16. The Greek word pan'ta allows "other" to be in the text [pan'ta: an inflected form of pas- eg.Lu.13:2 "all other" (see: NewKJV, NIV, NLT, NRS, RSV etc...)].

Col.1:16, "All other things have been created through him and for him" makes perfect grammatical sense. Jehovah created all things, all "other" things have been created through him [Jesus] and for him [Jesus].

Who would Jesus be creating "through" and "for" if "other" wasn't there?

Greek grammar and context allow for "other" to be in the text.
---David8318 on 1/1/20


David8318:

I quoted GREEK text, in several versions, the majority of which say "theos". This has NOTHING to do with KJV.

The relevance of "numerous other translations", "inferior", and "many scholars" are subjective opinions, not objective facts. If you actually believed in the validity of the superiority of the majority opinion, you would abandon your minority JW sect and join the trinitarian majority, but clearly you do not.

What criteria do you have to say one translation or manuscript is "inferior" to another? Just the fact that it supports your own theological bias?

I also see you are using two different names to bypass the site's posting limits.
---StrongAxe on 1/1/20


David many anti trinity people have told be I am going to hell for worshiping a false god. So both sides have those who go overboard.

I am pro Trinity. But only GOD knows who is saved and who is lost. Those who love GOD and love others will be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/1/20


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//ut many scholars agree that the text accepted in the 16th & 17th Centuries (ie.the Recieved Text on which KJV is based) is full of inaccuracies,//

Do you realize that most of these scholars whom you use to prove your point about the TR would disagree with your doctrine about Jesus?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/1/20


David8318:

In the KJV, every time the Divine Name occurs in the original, it is rendered in ALL CAPS, using the same word Jews use when they read it. In most cases, it's LORD, although in cases like "lord YHWH" it's "The Lord GOD". This clearly indicates when the Name is in the original.

The pronunciation "Yahweh" is much closer to how it would have been pronounced than "Jehovah". The Y sounds like Y, totally unlike English J. The W in ancient Semitic languages sounds like W, not like V (a common East European change).

WTS knows this, but still preserves the incorrect pronunciation "Jehovah". Why? Because they defer to their own tradition, rather than scholastic accuracy.
---StrongAxe on 1/1/20


//I quoted KJV... looks like "God"... to me//- StrongAxe.

So strongaxe accepts without question what is written at 1Tim.3:16 in KJV when numerous other translations read "He [who] was manifest..."

KJV was translated from the Received Text, based on Erasmus' Greek text of 1516 itself based on 2 inferior 12thC manuscripts.

But many scholars agree that the text accepted in the 16th & 17th Centuries (ie.the Recieved Text on which KJV is based) is full of inaccuracies, many of which have be corrected by the vastly wider availability of older manuscripts now in existence today.

The 4thC Codex Sinaiticus is one such text which shows 1Tim.3:16 saying "He was manifest..."
---David8318 on 1/1/20


//That is what THEY would have you believe//- StrongAxe.

The Greek Orthodox Church stated: "Christians are those who accept Christ as God."

The RCC states: "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion".

Trinitarians will ram down people's throats saying if you don't accept Jesus as God, you cannot be a Christian, you're a heretic, damned and off to "Hell".

Another case of... pot, kettle, black. More trinitarian hypocrisy!
---David831 on 1/1/20


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//ou're comparing apples with oranges. Yes the Jews avoided pronouncing God's name [YHWH] but they still kept the Divine name in the Hebrew text. That's the difference!

You guys came along and have removed God's name from the English text completely.//

Not really.

In the KJV and some other English translations, YHVH is rendered as LORD in all caps.

Or did you know that?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 1/1/20


//JEWS first euphemized the Holy Name for millennia. Are THEY trinitarians?//- StrongAxe.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Yes the Jews avoided pronouncing God's name [YHWH] but they still kept the Divine name in the Hebrew text. That's the difference!

You guys came along and have removed God's name from the English text completely.

All 6973 times!!

That's 6973 corruptions I can point to in your trinitarian mis-translations. Look at any ancient Hebrew manuscript and you will find God's personal name YHWH [Yahweh or Jehovah].

You can't call that "scholastical expertise".
---David8318 on 1/1/20


JS1234:

You wrote: Isn't it true that in this present age Jehovah is only saving Jehovah's Witnesses?

That is what THEY would have you believe.
---StrongAxe on 1/1/20


//indicates a personal preference//- StrongAxe.

So you would 'personally prefer' to hide behind trinitarian Cluny? That's the limit of your 'scholastic expertise'!?

Yes I've been studying Greek and Greek manuscripts for over 30 years. We examined the Codex Sinaiticus (dated approx. 350AD to late 4thC) in London, UK years ago. At 1Tim.3:16 it contains OC, "hos", an omicron and sigma ["he who"] but has an obvious correction to read "God" [simple change to the omicron to make it a theta]. Anyone can see the correction was added much later and is vastly different in handwriting to that of the original text.

"He was made manifest..." as found in NIV, RSV, ASV, NRS, CEB, NASB etc...
---David831 on 1/1/20


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David831:

Using loaded pejoratives like "rabid" do nothing to further your cause, and seriously undermines any pretense of objectivity.

Cluny has actually studied Greek. Have you? He should be able to provide a grammatical analysis. His beliefs do not hinge on, and are not threatened by, the exegesis of a single verse.

I prefer to accept... indicates a personal preference, rather than scholastical expertise.

As for "Jesus being made manifest in the flesh", ALL humans are already "manifest in the flesh", so if it truly meant that, it would be totally superfluous, so why did Paul include it at all?

JEWS first euphemized the Holy Name for millennia. Are THEY trinitarians?
---StrongAxe on 12/31/19


Isn't it true that in this present age Jehovah is only saving Jehovah's Witnesses?
---JS1234 on 12/31/19


//Perhaps Cluny, who is well-versed in Greek, could weigh in on this?//- StrongAxe.

Is this a prelude to a joke? I'm waiting for the punch line! Are we seriously expected to believe the rabid trinitarian Cluny is 'well versed' in Greek and can provide an un-biased opinion?

I prefer to accept what is found in the Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th Century Greek manuscript, which renders 1 Tim.3:16 "He was made manifest in the flesh", the "he" referencing Jesus.

And a footnote of the AS version states: "The word God, in place of He who, rests on no sufficient ancient evidence."
---David831 on 12/31/19


//This is very different from adding or removing words that change the meaning//- StrongAxe.

Rubbish. Trinitarians absolutely are guilty of removing words that change the meaning of the text. What greater crime against the Holy Scriptures can there be but to remove God's own name [YHWH] from the text over 7000 times.

Of course, allowing God's name to remain in the text works against the pagan trinity dogma. Satan has done a good job using trinitarian translators to remove God's name completely from trinitarian mis-translations.

This is the beauty of the NWT because it restores the Divine name 'Jehovah' [YHWH] and seeks to undo the damage inflicted on the Holy Scripture by corrupt trinitarians.
---David8318 on 12/31/19


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//This is a mystery//- StrongAxe.

If trinitarians believe the nature of Jesus is a "mystery", how do they know the trinity is correct?

The nature of God's son has been obfuscated by trinitarian mis-translation.

An example is 1Tim.3:16. To promote their pagan trinity dogma, trinitarian translators deceitfully take advantage of similar spelling of the Greek words "he" [os] and "god" [theos] and change this verse to read "God" was manifest in the flesh.

However, The Codex Sinaiticus (4th century Greek MS) confirms 1Tim.3:16 contains the word "He", and is correctly rendered:

"He [Jesus in context] was made manifest in the flesh".
---David8318 on 12/31/19


//so they invent many convolutions//- StrongAxe.

A blatant example of trinitarian tampering is found at 1 John 5:7 where the phrase: "and these three are one" (Authorized Version) was added.

Not only were these corrupt trinitarian words not in the Sinaiticus (4th century Greek MS), but they could not be found in any Greek manuscript before the 16th century.

The evidence indicates that a manuscript now found at Trinity College, Dublin, was purposely written about 1520 to insert that spurious verse!

Trinitarians cannot explain their dogma so they have to invent verses and hope the gullible will fall for it.
---David831 on 12/31/19


David8318:

I quoted KJV. Greek "theos efanerothe en sarki" looks like "God was manifest in [the] flesh" to me. Perhaps Cluny, who is well-versed in Greek, could weigh in on this?

I complain about NWT usage of "other" on purely grammatical grounds. The word "other" is not present, and there is no grammatical reason to insert it.

On the other hand, JW theology falls apart if "other" is not there, so they dishonestly added it just to support their theology.

Jews euphemised the Holy Name for millennia, to avoid using it in vain. Everyone knew what was meant. KJV even uses all caps. This is very different from adding or removing words that change the meaning.
---StrongAxe on 12/31/19


//invent many convolutions//- StrongAxe.

I note your insertion of the word "God" at 1Tim.3:16.

Correct rendering of 1 Tim.3:16: "He who was manifested in the flesh" (as found in translations: NIV, RSV, ASV, NRS, CEB, Good News, NASB, New Century etc...). Remember- God cannot die.

You complain about NWT correct use of "other" in Colossians. Of course because it dismantles the pagan Egyptian trinity you guys go gaga for.

Far greater crime is trinitarian corruption of the Bible text by removing God's name YHWH (Yahweh or "JEHOVAH"- Ps.83:18 KJV) from the Hebrew & Greek text 6973 times.

Umm... pot, kettle, black. Hypocrite!
---David8318 on 12/31/19


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//This is a mystery//- StrongAxe.

No it's not.

The trinity is a mystery of course yes, and that's why trinitarians use the word "mystery" at 1 Tim.3:16 because they cannot reconcile how Jesus can be the eternal "God" and die at the same time.

So trinitarians have to change the Bible text. First they remove God's name YHWH ("JEHOVAH"- Ps.83:18 KJV) from their mis-translations over 6973 times!

Then they change the text at 1 Tim.3:16.

They then have a blatant trinitarian interpolation at 1 Jo.5:7,8.

The list of trinitarian corrupt verses is endless!
---David831 on 12/31/19


David8318:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh

Something can only be "manifest" somewhere if it's actually there.

This is a mystery, one that the Watchtower cannot comprehend, so they invent many convolutions to get around it (e.g. the shamelessly inserting "[other]" into Colossians 1:16).
---StrongAxe on 12/30/19


Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said to him, Verily i say unto thee, To day shalt Thou be with me in paradise.

( Did Christ really die or just the flesh ? )

Isaiah 43:25 - I even I , am he that Blotteth out thy transgressions for my own sake, and will not remember thy sins

Micha 7:18 - Who is a God like unto thee, That pardons iniquity , And passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage ? He retaineth not his anger forever, Because he delighteth in Mercy.

Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their Faith , He said unto of the sick of the palsy , Son thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mark 2:7 - Why does this man thus speak blasphemies ? Who can Forgive sins but only God.
---RichardC on 12/30/19


//in order to visit ours, they must... don human flesh//- StrongAxe.

But God's son didn't simply "don human flesh". That's not what the verse you quote says at Jo.1:14. It says "the Word was made flesh..."

God's son didn't simply put on flesh like an overcoat. His life was somehow transferred to the womb of Mary and he was born in the natural way- Lu.1:34,35.

Philippians 2:6-8 (NLT) says God's son "gave up his divine privileges... was born as a human being... and died a criminal's death". This is why he came to earth- to die for us.

But trinitarians will say Jesus was "God incarnate". How can Jesus be "God"? God cannot die. No death, no resurrection. No salvation.
---David8318 on 12/30/19


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David8318:

John 1:1 LITERALLY says "The word was [a] god" and 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us".

How can you say he was no longer [a] god, yet was still God's son? How did he empty himself of one but not the other?

Incarnation theologies (whether pagan or otherwise) state that gods exist on higher planes than ours, and that in order to visit ours, they must temporarily shed some of their divine attributes (e.g. omnipresence, omniscience, etc.) and don human flesh. How is this different from what Jesus did?
---StrongAxe on 12/30/19


//what KIND of god Jesus is//- StrongAxe.

Jesus wasn't any "god".

John 1:1 doesn't say "Jesus was a god".

God's son before coming to earth is described as "the Word was a god"- Jo.1:1 [or "divine"- EJ Goodspeed].

God's son "gave up his divine privileges" (Ph.2:6,7 NLT) by emptying himself, becoming "lower than the angels" (Heb.2:7,9). On earth, God's Son was neither "a god", "God" nor "angel". He was human and given the name Jesus- Lu.1:31,32.

As a human, God's son can now die for mankind. But the pagan "Egypto-incarnation" trinity dogma denies the death of Jesus if he is "God incarnate".
---David8318 on 12/30/19


\\I do not believe he was either "the God incarnate" or "a god incarnate".\\

Neither did the heresiarch Arius.

\\They believe Jesus didn't really die because he is "God". The trinity negates the death and resurrection of God's son. The trinity dogma does not provide salvation from sin and death.\\

Wrong in all three of these sentences.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/19


Anyone who is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses will either die in Armageddon or be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. So you might as well join the Watchtower Society if you care about your future.
---JS1234 on 12/29/19


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//he is still either "the God incarnate" or "a god incarnate"//- StrongAxe.

I do not believe he was either "the God incarnate" or "a god incarnate".

This is all StrongAxe confusion, mis-translating and misunderstanding of John 1:1.

I have neither said Jesus was "the God incarnate" or "a god incarnate".

Catholic & Un-orthodox Coptics use the 'Egypto-pagan' dogma of incarnation, believing Jesus is "God incarnate". They believe Jesus didn't really die because he is "God". The trinity negates the death and resurrection of God's son. The trinity dogma does not provide salvation from sin and death.
---David8318 on 12/29/19


//Jesus... "a god incarnate"//- StrongAxe.

No, Jesus was made "lower than the angels" (Heb.2:7,9) and didn't believe seizing equality with God appropriate, but rather he "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men"- Phil.2:6,7 (NIV).

New Living Translation says: "he gave up his divine privileges".

Thus, being made "lower than the angels" and giving up his divinity he became human.

Jesus was neither "a god", "God" nor an angel when on earth. From his birth to his death he was human.

Being completely human, Jesus died completely. Jehovah then resurrected Jesus providing a guarantee for us- Ac.17:31.
---David8318 on 12/29/19


Christmas is NOT BIBLICAL Christ was not born on December 25. Christians should celebrate HIS FEAST to remember the plan of salvation for man not pagan tradition
---mike on 3/28/18


It's interesting to hear that the far Left hate group Southern Poverty Law Centre has been tracking the Twitter feed of those who oppose the oppressive tyranny of the Marxist Left's political correctness, to find that the most popular Tweets amongst these Christians and Conservatives were wishing others a Merry CHRISTMAS, or even mentioning Jesus....gasp!!


---Haz27 on 12/27/17


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: I heard Christmas Music on one radio station on November 1st. Money directs their behavior.

I know. It used to start on Black Friday. Now it seems to have moved back to the day after Halloween.

Why do you think fast food restaurants puts out fish sandwiches or specials just before Lent and stop during the Easter season? Because of Catholics

It's not only fast food restaurants. Every restaurant I have ever been at that has a soup of the day ALWAYS has clam chowder on Friday, and that's because of the old Catholic "meatless Friday" tradition.
---StrongAxe on 12/25/17


Cluny: In the Orthodox tradition, followed by Byzantine Catholics, 6 Jan IS the Baptism of Christ.//

Good to know, but StrongAxe I believe was a Latin Rite Catholic so he would have celebrated the Christmas Season pass Jan 6th.

In fact in United States our Magi visit falls on Sunday between Jan 4th to Jan 8th.
2nd Sunday after Christmas I believe.

//The adoration of the Magi is remembered on 25 December. In fact, that's the Gospel at Divine Liturgy.//

Yes, but the Gospel doesn't state the Magi offered the gifts when Mary and Jesus was in a stable but in a house.

Also Jesus was a child not an infant.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/25/17


**StrongAxe: The Liturgical Christmas Season lasts from Dec. 24-Jan. 6.//

Actually until the Baptism of our Lord. **

Depends on which church.

In the Orthodox tradition, followed by Byzantine Catholics, 6 Jan IS the Baptism of Christ. The adoration of the Magi is remembered on 25 December. In fact, that's the Gospel at Divine Liturgy.

Glory to Jesus Christ!!
---Cluny on 12/25/17


//..feeding the needy.---KarenD on 12/24/17

GREAT!

God bless you!
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/24/17


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StrongAxe: The Liturgical Christmas Season lasts from Dec. 24-Jan. 6.//

Actually until the Baptism of our Lord.

//The Commercial Christmas Season lasts from Thanksgiving evening until Dec. 25.//

I heard Christmas Music on one radio station on November 1st. Money directs their behavior.

Why do you think fast food restaurants puts out fish sandwiches or specials just before Lent and stop during the Easter season? Because of Catholics

Coffee Mate is successful because of the Orthodox Jews. They can't mix dairy products with meat. Many Jews didn't drink black coffee, but wanted coffee with their steak meal.

Coffee Mate was created with them in mind and it took off with lactose intolerant people.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/24/17


Don't have to worry about pagan traditions at our house. No tree to put up or down. Just serving the Lord on December 25th like all other Mondays, feeding the needy.
---KarenD on 12/24/17


Cluny said, "seeing a man drag a dead Christmas tree to the trash at 1:20 on the afternoon of 25 December."

A man after my own dad's heart. The Christmas Tree would go up at 6:30 or so Christmas Eve, and would go out to the trash on December 26, in the morning.
---Fr._Brendan_Drown on 12/24/17


To all here on CN, a very Merry Christmas.

Keep on believing on Jesus, the savior of our souls.
---Haz27 on 12/24/17


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Cluny: I really doubt it. Remember, commercial Christmas starts around the end of October.//

Exactly (I saw Christmas decorations at the start of October in my neck of the woods.)

The reason is because people have decided to stop celebrating Christmas after the 25th.

Don't you remember as a kid hearing Christmas music during the 1st week in January?

I do and you are slightly older than me.

//..seeing a man drag a dead Christmas tree to the trash at 1:20 on the afternoon of 25 December.//

I believe it.

I was the only person in my neighbor with Christmas decoration from the 28th until Jan 9th. (After our Lord's Baptism)

But they will change for an extra buck.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/23/17


Nicole_Lacey:

The Liturgical Christmas Season lasts from Dec. 24-Jan. 6. The Commercial Christmas Season lasts from Thanksgiving evening until Dec. 25. The two are loosely related, but should not be confused.

In the commercial world, Dec. 26 is the start of Valentine Season.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/17


The Christian hating Left always try to diminish Christmas. Thats why its PC to remove the title Christmas from Christmas.

The cultural Marxist Left attack anything Christian, traditional family and marriage, white men, Conservatives, binary genderism, patriotism, etc, in their drive to deceive and bully as many as they can into submitting to the Lefts deviancy, bigotry, hate, racism, sexism, etc.

For the Left, evil is presented as PC good, and anything truly good is presented as evil.

A CIA member published a book in 1958 titled The Naked Communist, which listed the Communist goals of infiltrating media, universities, Hollywood, politics, etc, to manipulate society.
This is why Christmas is undermined by the Left.
---Haz27 on 12/23/17


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