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New Covenant With Israel

Isn't there something wrong with the logic that "Christians are not under the 'Jewish' Law because they are under the New Covenant", when in fact the New Covenant was made with Israel?

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 ---Jerry6593 on 12/29/17
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Michael_e, and this Mystery of Christ in you, being crucified also to the world and the world to us, is exactly what Paul teaches in Galatians where our old man died with Christ, where the New Creature is no longer Jew or Gentile....all in Galatians 4 where Paul ALSO so precisely lays out that Covenant hidden in Isaac the child of Promise,,that which points to the spiritual vs that of the flesh.

Just because Les Feldick could not see it michael_e only shows he as not the absolute authority on the Mystery. Paul was, and shows us through Isaac, that Abraham saw in a vision the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So much was hidden, BUT NOW IS REVEALED AND PAUL EXPLAINS IT TO US right there in Galatians. AND the covenant in ch 4.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


It's all here michael_e, and after verse 29, Paul explains exactly how you are Abrahams SPIRITUAL SEED and HEIRS ACCORDING TO PROMISE. In Galatians 4. You're accusing Paul of not understanding the MYSTERY and that you or Les do.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.( also saying the same thing...( circumcision Uncircumcision also Romans 4 will show more )

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


According to the revelation of Christ given to Paul there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ. In time past there was a difference between Israel and the nations. Israel was Gods people, and to be a Jew meant you had access to Gods word and his will. ( Eph 2:13)
Gentiles in time past were far off, but are now made nigh to God through the blood of Christ, not through a nation or through circumcision.
In this new dispensation from God there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, we are all part of a NEW CREATURE.
---michael_e on 2/1/18


John, if you were paying attention, this was a conversation I was having with michael_e on a completely different subject. But I'll throw you a bone here too.

The CHURCH was a Covenant made between the TRINITY before the foundation of the world.( where YOU did not exist ....but the planning of the CHURCH did) ...and a gift the Father has given the Son ....and in this dispensation of GRACE, WHOSOEVER ( free will) will may join the CHURCH by placing their faith in Jesus death and resurrection, being Crucified with Christ becoming a member of the Heavenly Church. Would love to have you, BUT you will have to leave ALL your IDOLS and false teachers behind. Jesus Christ is the HEAD here. When your ready...but don't wait too long.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


I believe michael_e's doctrine, the HYPER dispensationalists do believe in free will. Not sure if Les Feldek covers that ....but when Les teaches the Church is some organism outside ANY of Gods Covenants is no different than any false religion making what ever claim they want, and then saying GOD GAVE THIS EXCLUSIVELY TO Jospeh Smith. Even I could say...hay, God decided to come up with something even better than the CHURCH... He only told me, and here goes.

God revealed many things to Paul....however God did not start a NEW religion with Paul totally disconnected from ANYTHING stated in the OT. God told Abraham that GENTILES would be saved...so Gentiles getting saved IS NO MYSTERY.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18





Kathr

When your losing a debate I see you cant help the Ad Hominems lol

The Lord Jesus actually answers your objection,

Jn 6:

"37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---john9346 on 1/31/18


John 17:24 Father I will that they also WHOM THOU HAST GIVEN ME.......

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began, = COVENANT
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


The old covenant never promised ETERNAL LIFE through the Law. Paul makes that clear in Galatians. Abraham looked for a city who's builder and maker was God..the Heavenly Jerusalem....not the earthly kingdom. And the earthly kingdom is NOT eternal life. It's the EARTHLY KINGDOM, where earthly people will live, under a kingdom LAW, and then Satan will be loosed again.

The Covenant God made with the Son before the foundation of the world was that the CHURCH is the Fathers gift to the Son, because of His sacrifice. It wasn't made with you. It is an UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT. If the church was FORORDAINED Before the foundation of the world...which it was, this Covenant is between THEM, AND FULFILLED FOR YOU Hebrews 13:20-21
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


michael_e, you should have kept reading. What Paul says here is the complete OPPOSITE of what you just said.

Ephesians 2:18-22

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God,

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


Before the revelation of the mystery of Christ, the only way to receive any hope of salvation or blessing from God was through Israels covenants of promise. Israels covenants of promise are still waiting future provision.
But now the blood of Christ is offered for direct entry into the household of God (Eph 2:13).
Since Christ has already made the full payment through his blood, and there are no other obligations to the church, God provides everything to us now without a covenant.
Israels covenant promises them a complete package when the kingdom comes, we are complete in Christ now (Col 2:10)
---michael_e on 1/31/18




I see that John and Michael_e have something in common....they simply reject the written Word of God. Is John s excuse because he is in fact DEAD, therefore does not have the ability to hear truth? Possibly. What God does John is STILL based on His Promises. Our faith is actually IN HIS PROMISES, and if you happen to come alive anytime soon, you will see the verse I posted above clarified that truth.

If your doctrine teaches God can do anything He wants any time He wants....what makes you so sure your salvation is even secure...? He might decide TODAY to scrap the whole redemption thing and then what? What would you say?
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


There was one such case when Moses brought the children out of Egypt, and when Moses was gone for sometime, they built a golden calf....and God was so angry He was actually going to destroy all,of Israel right then and there...HOWEVER, because of Moses and Moses REMINDING GOD of His Covenant promises, God repented of His thought to destroy them...also see Psalms 106:40-45.

Even the Covenant to never again flood the earth STILL STANDS TODAY. So NO, once God makes a PROMISE, He cannot renege and do what He wants. And anyone who tells you different IS A LIAR AND THEIR FATHER IS THE DEVIL.
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

This GRACE to both Jew and Gentile Paul again establishes was through the Covenant given to Abraham. God made 2 promises to Abraham, 1 was forwarded to Jacob, then becoming Israel concerning Land which the Church is not included ..as our LAND is the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.

Paul has more than 2 opportunities to say the CHURCH was NOT under ANY covenants....yet both in Galatians and Romans 4 he clarifies the CHURCH is in fact under the Abrahamic Covenant.....
---kathr4453 on 1/31/18


Kathr states, "


It's just as important not to follow anyone who makes up Covenants not found in scripture at all. Calvinism is one such cult. They claim they are saved by some secret covenant of grace..whereby they make up all the rules..picking and choosing what ever scriptures they want twisting to fit into a non existent covenant. There is no such covenant where any TULIP is laid out. The CovenantS in the Bible are clearly laid out, and clearly address who God is talking to and addressing in each one."

Lie, its based on God alone who chooses or rejects...

Kathr, remember, lying lips are an abomination to Yahweh Elohim see Prov 12:22...

You don't know what we believe as Calvinists.
---john9346 on 1/31/18


Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The Covenant that was confirmed BEFORE OF GOD IN CHRIST ( that is BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD was not a Covenant WITH Gentiles or Jews but was FOR GENTILES And JEWS. Abel A GENTILE..offered a BLOOD sacrifice pointed to this everlasting Covenant. Even JOB offered a blood sacrificed for sin. It HAD TO BE BASED ON SOMETHING. A PROMISE IS A COVENANT Also Ephesians does NOT say Gentiles or the Church are not under any Covenant . That's overreaching and just blatantly FALSE.
---kathr4453 on 1/30/18


Ephesians 2:12 is very plain. Our Gentile forefathers were strangers from the covenants of Promise, without hope and without God in this world. But, now in Christ Jesus we are made nigh, not by covenants, but by the Blood of Christ. By the finished work of the Cross, we are now in a greater relationship than the covenants, we are joint-heirs with Christ, Romans 8:14 17. The covenants were directed only to the nation of Israel. In order for the covenants to be fulfilled, Christ had to accomplish the atonement, His sacrifice of Himself. But, by His Grace that was extended beyond the covenants, and opened the windows of heaven's salvation to the whole race. No wonder it can only be appropriated by Faith.
---michael_e on 1/30/18


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It's just as important not to follow anyone who makes up Covenants not found in scripture at all. Calvinism is one such cult. They claim they are saved by some secret covenant of grace..whereby they make up all the rules..picking and choosing what ever scriptures they want twisting to fit into a non existent covenant. There is no such covenant where any TULIP is laid out. The CovenantS in the Bible are clearly laid out, and clearly address who God is talking to and addressing in each one.

And NO COVENANT had anyone Born Again before Jesus rose from the dead. Another made up false doctrine where they twist scripture and redefine words.
---kathr4453 on 1/30/18


Anyone who tries to sell you any belief system and states there is no Covenant attached is a CULT.

The MYSTERY is revealed folks, ....it was only HIDDEN in the OT, and now REVEALED.

Circumcision the 8th day POINTED TO THE MYSTERY. So did circumcision...as we see Colossians 1 and 2 CLEARLY REVEAL. The 8th day pointed to the NEW CREATION and Circumcision pointed to being CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH, putting OFF the flesh. That is the Mystery now revealed. CHRIST IN YOU comes ONLY by being crucified with Christ and raised up TOGETHER WITH HIM a NEW CREATURES.

We are justified BY HIS BLOOD= Everlasting covenant and saved by His life in you= MYSTERY.
---kathr4453 on 1/29/18


The Everlasting Covenant AKA the Abrahamic Covenant that included and includes Gentiles is what Paul bases his WHOLE letter to the Galatians on....a covenant made BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. And that Covenant was made between the God, the Word and the Holy Spirit, announced in Genesis 3:15, and was this covenant that Abel was saved by long before Israel ever came into being. It was more fully revealed to Abraham.

God does not work with ANY one without a Covenant. The very reason God "covered" Adam and Eve's sin was due to the Everlasting Covenant made before man was created, that Jesus was FORORDAINED before the foundation of the world to take away sin. Even the Church is included in the Everlasting Covenant.
---kathr4453 on 1/29/18


And it is also this covenant that Gentiles are brought near by the Blood of Jesus Christ....so,states Paul in Ephesians. This Covenant reastablished again with Abraham was 430 years BEFORE any Covenants were made with Israel, Ephesians clearly state Gentiles were never a part of. No where does scripture state the the Church is not under any Covenant. We were purchased with the Blood of Jesus Christ....through the Blood of THE EVERLASTING COVENANT. Even Jesus was raised from the dead through the Blood of the EVERLASTING Covenant. Hebrews 13:20-21 There would be no CHURCH without the Everlasting Covenant.

Why would Paul tell the Gentile CHURCH in Galatia about the Abrahamic Covenant it it doesn't apply?
---kathr4453 on 1/29/18


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What made Israel Gods chosen people were the covenants given exclusively to them. Gentiles had no privilege or advantage with any covenants with God.
Even when Israel failed, they could lay claim to the covenants of promises God had made with their fathers, David, and the prophets. God had promised them salvation. Confidence in salvation was found in the covenants God had made.
In contrast, Paul preaches complete confidence of salvation to people who never had any covenants. On what basis could they be so sure? Paul explains that the work for salvation was already finished, and was being offered to them freely.
---michael_e on 1/28/18


Jerry, What makes you think it's the doctrine of man?

If you look at Colossians 2, you will see the keeping of the sabbath IS A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME. Meaning AFTER the Church is translated out, the Earthly kingdom reign will take place. Also 1 Cor 15 Says Christ must reign until ALL enemies are put under...and THEN ALL WILL BE DELIVERED UP TO THE FATHER. So there will be a Kingdom Reign, for 1000 years where KINGDOM LAW will be in effect, including sabbath keeping. But that's TO COME. If it were already something we are to do now, which Paul says NO, those verses would NOT be necessary.

The problem is....YOU don't believe in the EARTHLY KINGDOM REIGN OF CHRIST FOR 1000 years. I do, and it's not man made doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/18


Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Jerry, Isaiah 60-66 along with Zechariah 12-14 talk about the 1000 year reign ON EARTH. and yes, even in Zechariah 14 it states that everyone will have to come once a year to worship etc. AND if anyone refuses....they will have their water cut off. This is not the place Revelation 21 is talking about.... And Isaiah says at that time a Baby will die at 100 years old....IN REVELATION 21 -22 THERE IS NO MORE DEATH .
Also there will be rebuilding of the waste places in Isaiah and Zechariah by the people. Whereas That will all ready be completed BY GOD in Rev 21 and 22.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/18


katr: "There will be no sabbath to keep in Heaven."

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one SABBATH to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

You should look to Scripture for your doctrine rather than unto the philosophy of men.


---jerry6593 on 1/28/18


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If the Commandments are gone. than sin is gone.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/25/18

Well, yes, to the believer this is what Romans 6-8 teach for those who died to sin....we also at that time died to the law. Only the FLESH sins, our NEW MAN IN CHRIST DOES NOT. And if we are now in the spirit and not the flesh, ( only those IN CHRIST ) are described and seen by God in this state) don't need the Law, anymore than we will be under the LAW when we all will be in the New Heaven and earth. There will be no sabbath to keep in Heaven...as there will be no day or night or sun or moon establishing days. The NEW CREATURE now is positioned with Christ NOW in Heavenly places...where no such thing as a Sabbath day exist either.
---kathr4453 on 1/27/18


LOVE is a fruit of the Spirit that comes by being CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, NOT by having the 10 commandments tattooed to your mind. Christ in you is not the 10 Commandments in you. Galatians 2:20-21

Galatians5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
---kathr4453 on 1/27/18


OK here I understand we are no longer under the law...not even the LAW you say is now written on heart and mind...because it is still oldness of the letter of the law in a new form..Having it in a new form does not change its purpose..it STILL DOES NOT BRING FORTH FRUIT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.


Romans 7:4-7

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.....

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/18


Hebrew 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel...
---Samuelbb7 on 1/25/18

Can we agree on something?

First, Hebrews 8:8-12 is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Second, Jeremiah 31:33 reads this way:

Jer. 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord, I will put Torah within them and on their heart I will write it, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people"

Third, that Torah was the Jewish Bible, yet they knew it as "The Law".

Fourth, that God want His words in our heart, not the commandments. God wants us to know John 3:16, not "thou shall not sin".
---Mark_Eaton on 1/26/18


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Correct all verse on a topic must be applied. My understanding is that law is established. Trying to use the law to save yourself is gone. So no more righteousness by works. If you examine the passages about the law there is often language that points to salvation by works. See Romans 3:20 law defines sin. Read 1John.

Then tell me why your view which makes Scripture contradict itself is true.



Romans 6 says we are to not continue in sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/26/18


katr: Why do you waste so many words arguing with God's Word? Do you really expect to convince us that obedience is sin and lawlessness is virtue?



---jerry6593 on 1/26/18


///Romans 3:31 says the law is established not done away with. ////

...other scriptures say the LAW is done away IN CHRIST. Don't take one verse out of context to establish a DOCTRINE.

///We are saved by Grace to live in love. Those who live in love keep the Ten Commandments. Romans 6 and 13. ////

Wrong...Romans 6-8 clearly say we died to the LAW...

////If the Commandments are gone. than sin is gone.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/25/18////

wrong again...Romans 5 show before the LAW there was sin, and sin led to DEATH that fell upon all men. AND the Promise of the Messiah promised LIFE...Hebrews 2. The Law was ADDED so SIN WOULD ABOUND. It doesn't say the law was added so sin would begin.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


Samuel, I can understand WHY you don't believe in OSAS. You've put so much emphasis on NOW being able to keep the Law, because now the Holy Spirit is in you...where as before it was impossible to keep. Now you have a problem? You are saying EVEN with the Holy Spirit in you...you still can break the law...so what good is the Holy Spirit in this case? So since even the Holy Spirit falls short in this area, and YOU can express more power than He can, you can then LOSE your salvation, ....why?

But being saved BY GRACE, is saved by Christ in You...saved by Jesus death and resurrection life IN YOU...so much more than the 10 commandments in you.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


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Dear Kathr
Hebrew 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts: and I will be to their GOD AND THEY SHALL BE TO ME A PEOPLE.

That does not mean we have to sacrifice animals in the New. Since Jesus is the true Sacrifice.
Nor does it mean we have to believe once saved always saved to be saved. That is Salvation by doctrine not grace.

Romans 3:31 says the law is established not done away with.

We are saved by Grace to live in love. Those who live in love keep the Ten Commandments. Romans 6 and 13.

If the Commandments are gone. than sin is gone.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/25/18


The LAW at Mt Sinai is NO MORE.

Hebrews 12: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.....Abel's blood spoke vengeance.....
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


Jerry, just because Paul used OT LAW to back up the Gospel, including the Law, which included the sacrificial system pointing to Jesus Christ, as we see even Hebrews is steeped with foundation scripture that indeed SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS RELIGION , remember the Law was a schoolmaster to bring to Christ, and after Faith is come....I'd be concerned if Paul preached a Gospel that didn't have its foundation in the Law....But in no way does that state we are still UNDER THE LAW. Hebrews 10 is AWESOME using the OT LAW system vs GRACE....

Jerry and law keepers, if you all still want to be under the LAW, then you must sacrifice bulls and goats..OR you must accept Jesus has sanctified you once and for all through the body of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him [Paul] a day, there came many to him into his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning JESUS, both out of the LAW OF MOSES, and out of the PROPHETS, from morning till evening.



---jerry6593 on 1/24/18


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Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me, him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles [Old Testament] to GIVE UNTO US:



---Jerry6593 on 1/23/18


In Isaac will thy seed be called, and the seed is CHRIST, ...NOT Jacob. The Church is not Israel. Israel are the physical EARTHLY descendants of Jacob. And again, this is why Calvinists unfortunately use Jacob I love, Esau I Hate to explain their mysterious salvation of being CHOSEN, trying to attach some sort of spiritual connection, where there is none. No GENTILE period is in any way shape or form a SPIRITUAL descendent of Jacob.

Isaac, not even considered Israel...since God renamed Jacob ALONE Israel.

Abraham ....as the stars ....as the sand....the stars represent those ABOVE AND FREE, the sand, represent EARTHLY ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/18


Samuel, the Christian Jews thought Gentiles were in submission to the Jews, and wanted them to become Jews. THE MYSTERY which is Christ in you does not. Romans 6-8 says we DIED TO THE LAW ala Law of Moses and have a New Law ...the Perfect Law of LIBERTY, where we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Those laws are LOVE JOY PEACE LONGSUFFERING FAITH, PATIENCE, etc. against these there is NO LAW. We live a HIGHER LAW. And this Law of FAITH comes ONLY be being conformed to His Image by being crucified with Christ and raised a new creation. Becoming OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH...PHILIPPIANS 2-3.

As Isaac so are we...( Isaac was a perfect example of becoming obedient unto death). It's all there ....what the Lord showed Abraham...
---kathr4453 on 1/16/18


Samuel, there is no Gospel in the Law of Moses. And the same is true for the New Covenant, there is no Gospel in the New Covenant....the Gospel is In the Everlasting Covenant AKA the Abrahamic Covenant. Hebrews 11 show this all the way back to Abel SALVATION.

This is why we have Calvinists, who jump right to the NC and think they were PICKED, without FIRST showing faith, and why so many jump to the NC thinking WALLA, now we can keep the Law of Moses again but we can lose favor.

NOTHING replaced the Abrahamic Covenant, where FAITH is required, and that FAITH, will always from Abel to today DECLARE one Righteous...even the most horrible of sinners....INSTANTLY being imputed the righteousness of Christ OSAS. More later.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/18


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The problem in Galatians is that the Pharisee Christians wanted the Gentiles to keep Circumcision and add works to be saved.

The New Covenant has the law written in our hearts. Hebrews 8:8-10 The church is Israel.

The Ten Commandments are to be written in our hearts in Love. Christians obey because they are saved. They walk in love. Love fulfills the law. Romans 13. When you love you don't want to break the Ten Commandments.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/15/18


The EVERLASTING Covenant , which the Church is under, just read Galatians, AKA the Abrahamic Covenant has nothing to do with keeping any LAWS in the heart. The Everlasting Covenant is based on PROMISES God has made, Hebrews 13:20-21, 2 Peter 1 and we RECEIVE BY FAITH. So different than the IF YOU WILL, THEN I WILL contract God had with Israel, based on conditions.

God ONLY works through Covenants PERIOD. To say the Church is not under any covenant is to call Galatians and Romans 4 a lie, which Paul clearly lays out for the CHURCH. Why would Paul establish the Covenant with Abraham if the Church has nothing to do with that covenant? Galatians clearly lay the Abrahamic Covenant for these Gentile Christians who are the CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 1/15/18


Galatians 3:17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Jerry correct THE LAW moving to heart, since the NC states STATUTES AND ORDINANCES, which is what the OT calls THE LAW.

But in Galatia, when Christian Jews tried to bring in possibly the NC to Gentiles, putting them under the LAW, what do we see????? we see Paul AGAIN showing that they are not now nor EVER were under the Law Old or New, but under the Covenant God made with Abraham....which is a covenant of FAITH,.....and THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.

Jerry and michael_e..WHY don't you believe Galatians?
---kathr4453 on 1/15/18


The Bible does not indicate a change in "The Law" associated with the New Covenant - only a change in the location (heart vs. stone).

A covenant (Old or New) is an agreement to keep The Law - not The Law itself.



---Jerry6593 on 1/13/18


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Trav:

In Galatians and in Hebrews Israel is not the contest my friend...

Please take time to read Galatians and Hebrews and I will be happy toengage in a Meaningful Substantive Dialog with you.

Thank You for your
understanding,

John
---john9346 on 1/10/18


God is under no obligation toward the church the body of Christ having made no covenants with the Body. Salvation is offered all of grace without obligation or requirement. God and Israel still have obligations under the covenants to fulfill before salvation comes to them.
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
---michael_e on 1/10/18


Moses was told of the Everlasting dispensation Covenant, but the Jews preferred the pagan beliefs and practices that they had been introduced to in Egypt.


Heb 11:26 He considered abuse suffered for THE CHRIST greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward.

Act 7:39 Our fathers REFUSED to obey him, but thrust him aside, and in their hearts they turned to Egypt,

Isa 24:5 The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants, for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the EVERLASTING COVENANT.
---faithforfaith on 1/10/18


Trav:
BTW, not impress by the thousands verses you cite since they're not properly dealt with in their full context.
---john9346 on 1/9/18

Hmmmm. Thousands that don't impress upon you are Christ, prophets and Apostles to "all" of Israel. Jealousy. The reason you deny the context. Witnesses saying, confirming the same thing is context. GOD with Israel is the context.
A few other than your will "Context" this, Everlasting and For-ever.
1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Psa_136:22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
---Trav on 1/10/18


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Trav states, "Well even the name of the scripture you refer too "Hebrews" is our first sign."

But again the author of Hebrews inspired of the Holy Spirit corrects you and if you read ch 7,and 8 clearly shows it started with Israel, but not exclusively to them.

BTW, not impress by the thousands verses you cite since they're not properly dealt with in their full context.
The New Covenant is for all not just Jews, see, Jn 3:16, Gal 3:26-28, Rom 10:11-13, and Matt 28:19-20.
---john9346 on 1/9/18


Why do today's christians believe that the Holy Spirit was only for them?

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The Spirit of God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The Spirit came upon such Old Testament people as Joshua, David and Saul.
---Steveng on 1/9/18


Trav states, "The N.Covenant is specific to (Israel)
The Author of Hebrews inspired of the Holy Spirit didn't think so because in Heb 8 the audience is Jews and Gentiles.
---john9346 on 1/9/18

Well even the name of the scripture you refer too "Hebrews" is our first sign.
The Latin 15th century word for "ethnos/nations "gentiles", is not even found in "Hebrews" at all. It wouldn't be expected to be found. The promise was to the fathers and their heirs. For example, I love you jhn but you don't inherit with my kids when I die, as you would expect and not even get angry over. Matt 20:14-16
Ex 19:4-6, Deu 7:5-7, Deu 14:2, Deu 26:18, Pslm 33:11-13, Pslm135:4, Isa 44:1-3, etc, etc, etc.
---Trav on 1/9/18


The first dispensation of divine blessings and gifts from the creator/deity was creation itself.

The FULL and eternal dispensation. The SPIRIT had never been GIVEN before, John 7:39). That is why scripture says that Jesus is the whole FULNESS of deity (Colossians 2:18).

Jesus is the ETERNAL dispensation of the creator/deity.

Deu 33:27 The eternal God is your dwelling place...And he thrust out the enemy before you, and said DESTROY (He DESTROYED the law of sin).

Heb 2:14 that through death he might DESTROY him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Rom 16:26 according to the command of the ETERNAL GOD.

Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fulness of time.
---faithforfaith on 1/9/18


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Trav states, "The N.Covenant is specific to the "House of Israel" (Nth House divorced) "AND" "JUDAH"(Sth House,not divorced) but, disregarded/denied by those seeking/climbing."

The Author of Hebrews inspired of the Holy Spirit didn't think so because in Heb 8 the audience is Jews and Gentiles.

Agree, the New Covenant was first promised to Israel, but not exclusively the New Covenant is for everyone regardless of ethnicity.

Kathr:

The New Covenant includes the everlasting Covenant.


Eze 36 is not all in the future
---john9346 on 1/9/18


The New Covenant is for all the Old Covenant is exclusively Jewish...
See, Deut 4:6-9, ...
---john9346 on 1/7/18

The N.Covenant is specific to the "House of Israel" (Nth House divorced) "AND" "JUDAH"(Sth House,not divorced) but, disregarded/denied by those seeking/climbing another way in.
Deu 7:5-7, Deu 14:1-3, Pslm 22:11-13, Pslm 135:3-5, 1Chr 16:14-18,
Everlasting Pslm 105:9-11, Eze 16:59-61,
Covenant for-ever Luke 1:71-73, Eze 37:25-27, Isa 59:20-22
Pro_1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
---Trav on 1/9/18


John, it would make perfect sense that the Everlasting Covenant was fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jeuss Christ, Hebrews 13:20-21 where Jesus was raised from the dead through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT.

However when it comes to the New Covenant, that has many parts still to be fulfilled at the return of Jesus Christ to reign and rule on earth for 1000 years. It will be Kingdom LAW, and as we see The Spirit put in them will put Gods LAWs in them and cause them to walk in His STATUTES AND ORDINANCES... Ezekiel 36 is to EARTHLY ISRAEL who make it through the Great Tribulation...Zechariah 12-14 also read.

The statutes and ordinances refer to the LAW that was NEVER part of the Abrahamic Covenant.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/18


Kathr states, "We see for a FACT, the Abrahamic Covenant aka the Everlasting Covenant was made 430 years before the Law of Moses aka the Old Covenant. We see the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant...but no scripture states the New Covenant replaced, or Is the same as the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul STILL establishes the Abrahamic Covenant in Galatians and Romans FOR ALL OF US TODAY.... IN THEE WILL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED..yes John...men and women of all colors, nationalities etc."

Continue reading Gal 3 Paul inspired of the Holy Spirit vs 22, 26, and 29 shows that the Abrahamic Covenant (Everlasting Covenant) was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ...

BTW, why are you so obsess with Calvinism? :-)
---john9346 on 1/8/18


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STeveng,Abraham OBEYED Gods voice, just as Noah did( no LAW stating one must build an Ark either or kill your son) ,but faith must be OBEYED, called obedience of faith or LAW of faith, James calls works of faith....not works of the law.....and Abrahams OBEDIENCE OF FAITH ROMANS 16:25-27 is what Justified him.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/18


kathr4453 wrote: ..."LAW was NOT OF FAITH...never was,..

Abraham had faith in Gad just before he was suppose to sacrifice his son.
---Steveng on 1/7/18


The problem of totally bypassing the Abrahamic Covenant is why Calvinists believed they are picked out of a hat, and that they don't have to do anything regarding salvation. They have confused all the promises to Israel and applied them to themselves....as some special elect. They use Jacob I loved and Esau I hated as their foundation of salvation.

Whereas in the Abrahamic Covenant...FAITH IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED BEFORE RESULTING IN SALVATION. Also , Galatians NEVER ONCE mentions Jacob and Esau...And the very conclusion of Hebrews 13:20-21 clearly state ...THE EVERLASTING COVENANT. Also in reference to Galatians 3:17 IS THAT COVENANT CONFIRMED BEFORE BY GOD IN CHRIST 430 years BEFORE THE LAW .
---kathr4453 on 1/7/18


We see for a FACT, the Abrahamic Covenant aka the Everlasting Covenant was made 430 years before the Law of Moses aka the Old Covenant. We see the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant...but no scripture states the New Covenant replaced, or Is the same as the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul STILL establishes the Abrahamic Covenant in Galatians and Romans FOR ALL OF US TODAY.... IN THEE WILL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED..yes John...men and women of all colors, nationalities etc.

And the Everlasting Covenant aka the Abrahamic covenant clearly includes the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and His Blood..Hebrews 13:20-21. Jesus was raised from the dead THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/18


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The Lord Jesus Christ who is greater than Abraham and Moses stated this regarding the New Covenant:

"20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." Lk 22:20

These words commenced the New Covenant for all and not exclusively Jews.

Paul also repeats these words in 1 Cor 11:23-25.

The New Covenant is for all the Old Covenant is exclusively Jewish and the law was only for Israel not gentiles.

See, Deut 4:6-9, 7:6, Isa 49:6, Gal 3:28, Rom 10:11-13.
The New Covenant is for all not just for Jews and not for all because of sin and not because of ones skin color...
---john9346 on 1/7/18


It's all right here. Even tells WHY the Law was brought in. Also never says the Covenant made with Abraham was REPLACED WITH THE NEW COVENANT EITHER.


GAL 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come ......
---kathr4453 on 1/7/18


I have always found it interesting that Galatians, the greatest chapter on LAW VS GRACE, showing GENTILES the promises given to Abraham EXTENDED TO GENTILES, long before the Old and New Covenant , is STILL in effect and is NOT nor ever WAS the New Covenant. God NEVER REPLACED the Abrahamic Covenant. Can anyone see that?

When Abraham was to sacrifice ISAAC, Abraham SAW the death and resurrection in a vision. Also as we identify with Jesus in death and resurrection life, we too identify with ....AS ISAAC SO ARE WE...also Paul explaining in Galatians. And we see that even to Abraham was THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT.

Galatains never once mentions the NEW Covenant but only the ABRAHAMIC COVENANT AKA THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/18


It takes much study and prayer to rightly divide here. We know the Old Cov ..ANA THE LAW was NOT OF FAITH...never was, SO, how, if salvation which has ALWAYS been by faith, going all the way back to Adam and Eve and Abel = HEB 11, ALSO Hebrews 11 showing all under faith...even shows Moses UNDER FAITH, showing FAITH when he left Egypt....

Paul also goes into great detail in Romans 4 laying the foundation for salvation establishing the Abrahamic Covenant.

Individuals are NOT PROMISED Ezekiel 36....THE WHOLE CHAPTER. However the NATION OF ISRAEL IS.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/18


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It is vital for it to be known that covenants are 1 thing, laws are another thing.

The law was never for gentiles only the Jews the NT Covenant is for all not exclusively to the Jews.

See, Rom 10:13, Jn 3:16-17, and Gal 3:28.
---john9346 on 1/6/18


Mark_Eaton wrote: "First, the OT was made with Israel. The NT, extends to all mankind (Rom. 1).

On the contrary, the OT was suppose to be for all mankind. God chose the israelites (it could have been any group of people) to bring God's word to the world. They failed. They thought it was only for them just like the christians today.
---Steveng on 1/6/18


Gentiles from Adam and Eve, Abel, Noah, Job, ABRAHAM were under the EVERLASTING Covennt. And Paul tells us in Galatians, THAT the Covenant made with Abraham was not annulled when the Old Covenant was made with Israel. TODAY both Jew and Gentile are under the EVERLASTING COVENANG, made between Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world, ON YOUR BEHALF.

The New Covenant although it has many of the same promises as the Everlasting Covenant, is exclusively to the NATION OF ISRAEL, just as the old was to THE NATION OF ISRAEL. The EVERLASTING COVENANT has always been to INDIVIDUALS. Galatians NEVER says anything about the NEW Covenant, BUT reiterates and establishes the EVerlasting Covenant made to Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 1/6/18


Jerry, I think the New Covenant was made with the Jews who obeyed Jesus.
---Bill on 1/6/18


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Jerry6593 states, "Paul was quoting Jeremiah in these verses, so the New Covenant comes from the Old Testament."

Paul inspired of the Holy Spirit stated that Heb 8:10 fulfilled Jer 31:34 not that the Old Covenant/law continues, but that it was fulfilled.

Also, the law was never for gentiles...

strongaxe:

Under the OT Loving Yahweh your Elohim and your neighbor wasn't the "Primary Guarantee." of fulfillment but all of the 613 Commandments. Do you remember Deut 27:26??
---john9346 on 1/6/18


Monk: "Jerry, I can see you're still up to the same old tricks."

Yes, quoting Scripture is a sly trick, isn't it?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of ISRAEL and with the house of JUDAH:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Paul was quoting Jeremiah in these verses, so the New Covenant comes from the Old Testament.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed ...


---jerry6593 on 1/6/18


Monk_Brendan:

You wrote: The New Covenant began when Jesus rose from the dead, and there is NONE of the Old Covenant that survives it. New commandments have been given that totally replace the Law. Love God, and love your neighbor.

This is inaccurate in two ways: 1) Those two commandments were not new. Jesus was asked what are the two greatest commandments under the LAW, and he quoted those two, which date back to Moses. 2) Jesus gave these commandments before he rose from the dead.
---StrongAxe on 1/6/18


All throughout scripture The Lord tells to distinguish between the old and the new.


We must make CLEAR DISTINCTIONS between the OLD/obsolete and the NEW.




Upon closer observation, it becomes obvious that the OLD Testament is actually the HEBREW BIBLE.

The Judaic devotion was centered around a GATE (CLOSED for six WORKdays).

The House of Israel Had only ONE husband to lord over it (we have three,Father, Son, and eternal Spirit).

Ezekiel 46:1 The east gateway of the inner courtyard will be CLOSED during the six workdays each week, but it will be open on Sabbath DAYS (The DAY of the Lord).

2Co 11:2 I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.
---faithforfaith on 12/29/17


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Jerry, I can see you're still up to the same old tricks.

The Law--that is the Old Covenant--was done away with when Jesus died on the Cross.

The New Covenant began when Jesus rose from the dead, and there is NONE of the Old Covenant that survives it.

Now don't start on me that some of the laws carry over. They do NOT. New commandments have been given that totally replace the Law. Love God, and love your neighbor.
---Monk_Brendan on 12/29/17


Isn't there something wrong with "Christians are not under the 'Jewish' Law because... the New Covenant was made with Israel?
---Jerry6593 on 12/29/17

Under that straw man argument, Gentiles cannot be Christians at all, only Jews can.

Yet we know that St. Paul said that the power of God for salvation has come to everyone, the Jew first, then the Greeks.

So your argument has holes.

First, the OT was made with Israel. The NT, extends to all mankind (Rom. 1).

Second, the OT was concerned with the Mosaic law. However, in the NT grace and truth came thru Jesus (John 1).

Third, the OT was not faultless, and a NT was needed. And when the NT was inaugurated, the OT was made obsolete (Heb. 8).
---Mark_Eaton on 12/29/17


Hebrews 8: (condensed)
1 (We have a high priest)
6 (he has a more excellent ministry, and mediates a better covenant)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
...
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In Acts 15:20-21 and 21:25, the ONLY OT laws Paul commanded gentile converts to observe were to abstain from idols, pollution, things strangled, and blood. He did NOT require them to keep ANY of the rest of the old covenant. Why was that? Perhaps he knew something about the provenance of the new covenant that you do not?
---StrongAxe on 12/29/17


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