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Finish Here January 2018

Finish here January 2018

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 1/9/18
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Again Nicole, what Luther wanted to do and actually did not is not King James fault, since the King James Bible came out of England not Germany.

And whatever was decided has nothing to do with MONEY, as you keep insisting.

I could say the same of you Nicole, your arguing clearly proves you hate Cats, and love molesting and mutilating them.....

So now I make as much sense as you do......and maybe jumped on your wave band here......NOW DO YOU GET IT.

If I don't NEED the extra books to COMPLETE MY SALVATION, and Christ is ALL I need.....maybe YOU value NON spiritual books more than Jesus Christ. Sounds like YOUR the one with issues..not me.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/18


Kathr, Martin Luther not ONLY wanted to remove the 7 books of the OT he didn't LIKE, but he ALSO wanted to removed the epistle of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation. He was overridden by the Elders of the Protestant Church of the time. As evident of the 1st edition of the King James Bible.

But the 2nd edition of King James Bible Martin Luther got his way. I guess the men died.

So at least you answered my question. You honor money more than the Bible.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/19/18


NONE of these disallow apostles today and SIMULTANEOUSLY permit Paul.
---StrongAxe on 1/18/18

I think you have forgotten what Apostle means.

Generically it means "one sent" or "messenger".

If we accept this definition, only the messengers and ones sent from Jesus are Apostles of Jesus. This would be only the twelve called by Jesus and St. Paul. Paul would be because of his "accepted" road to Damascus meeting of Jesus.

Any of Apostles of today can only be considered Apostles of God and not Apostles of Jesus, because they are not sent by Jesus Himself.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/19/18


To recap:

1. Nicole was never able to provide us 3 sources prior to the reformation that give evidence that the apocrypha has always been "Scripture."

2. Strongaxe was never able to name (not one) person today who meet the Apostolic Criteria of Acts 1:21-25...

3. Strongaxe solidified that he doesn't believe in "Scripture." (rejects Divine Origin of bible)

4. In scripture apostle as gift and office is the same in functioning which has ceased...
---john9346 on 1/19/18


strongaxe:

1. As pointed out to you prior Eph 2:19-20 states, "Built upon." pass-tense if your position is true it would state, "Is building." Sir, the foundation has been laid...

2. "Acts 1:21-25 and Rev 21:14 do NOT mention Paul."

Sir, the point of these Scriptures is those apostles met Apostolic Criteria and since Paul is an apostle so did he... No one alive today can meet these qualifications. There are only 12 and will never be more Rev 21:14...

Sir, Jude 1:3 witnesses to us that the Canon of Scripture is close (No more revelation is being given today)
---john9346 on 1/19/18




kathr4453:

You wrote: The Gospel HAS been established, therefore the OFFICE is no longer in effect

You (and many others) seem to believe that, but what scripture ACTUALLY says that the office of Apostle becomes obsolete once the gospel is established? I am not aware of any.
---StrongAxe on 1/19/18


In all fairness, the list in Ephesians 4 list SPIRITUAL GIFTS, the first being Apostles, then prophets, etc. and THESE GIFTS are specifically FOR the Body of Christ, for our building up.

A spiritual gift is different than an OFFICE, where the Apostles of the first century church were there not only to establish the church, but also with signs and wonders preaching the Gospel to the lost.

So actually the word Apostle here may be referring to two entirely different things. The Gospel HAS been established, therefore the OFFICE is no longer in effect, HOWEVER the SPIRITUAL GIFT of Apostle for those already saved may very well still be in effect.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/18


john9346:

NOTHING in Eph 2:19-20 says WHEN apostles existed, or if and when they ended.
Acts 1:21-25 and Rev 21:14 do NOT mention Paul.
Jude 1:3 does not DEFINE who and what those saints are/were.

NONE of these disallow apostles today and SIMULTANEOUSLY permit Paul.

I believe what scripture SAYS, to the level of clarity that it actually provides. I don't presume to try to read God's mind and deduce things he didn't feel it necessary to say.


Haz27:

I was commenting ONLY on what Matthew 25+10 ACTUALLY SAY. It would be an "absurd claim" to presume those scriptures define everything else. They don't, but you stubbornly refuse to get it.
---StrongAxe on 1/18/18


nicole ask, "Why do you both accept Martin Luther's 66 book Bible when he had a 73 Book Bible as a Catholic Bible?"



Nicole, cardinal cajetan and cardinal Seripando both rejected the apocrypha they both emphasize to follow Jerome in rejecting the apocrypha. If you as a follower of the rcc know anything about these men your arguments against Luther is "Unfounded."...
---john9346 on 1/18/18


'Here begins the book of Tobit which is not in the canon, here begins the book of Judith which is not in the canon' and so forth for Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, and Maccabees etc.

"the church reads them and permits them to be read by the faithful for devotion and edification. Their authority, however, is not considered adequate for proving those things which come into doubt or contention, or for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogma, as blessed Jerome states in his prologue to Judith and to the books of Solomon.
The Glossa Ordinaria

---john9346 on 1/18/18




strongaxe states, "I believe what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS. I don't necessarily believe what people use psychic powers to read beteen the lines but isn't actually there."

What does Psychit Powers have to do with Eph 2:19-20, Acts 1:21-25, Jude 1:3, Rev 21:14 explaining to us that there are no more apolstes today??

On a prior posting you stated that the bible isn't, "Clear." so what is it sir are the Scriptures not clear and if they are not how then can you say, ""I believe what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.""
---john9346 on 1/18/18


The Luther Bible (German: Lutherbibel) is a German language Bible translation from Hebrew and ancient Greek by Martin Luther. The New Testament was first published in 1522 and the complete Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments and Apocrypha, in 1534.

Nicole, are you saying this is a lie? I don't see where the others were omitted.

What I do find awesome is..HE HAD THE BIBLE PRINTED SO THE LITTLE PEOPLE COULD READ FOR THEMSELVES. Which was illegal under the RCC. Many were murdered by the RCC for giving Bibles to the little people who suddenly became morons and illiterate after the RCC put themselves in charge of Christianity.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/18


Haz27, there are many who mix law ...works and grace. So did those who came into Galatia. So do Catholics, SDA's etc. are you planning to take them ALL ON? That's not our job Haz27. Our job is to state the Truth, let the Holy Spirit do HIS WORK, and move on. You're no different than the RCC or Calvin murdering anyone who disagreed with any part of their beliefs.

There are aspects of your beliefs Haz27 many of us disagree with you on, and also have shown scripture to you...but you also REFUSE to listen.

Move on Haz27. You've made your point OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND.......,
---kathr4453 on 1/18/18


AXE. You argued that Matt 25 sheep, and Matt 10, speak of NON Christians (those who reject JC) being saved SOLELY by their works.

And then you make the absurd claim that this is specific only to Matt 25 & 10, and you then contradict this by saying you don't believe in salvation without JC.

Holding such contradictory beliefs normally would result in the discomfort of cognitive dissonance, but as you have consistently maintained this contradiction then I can only assume you're either deluded or dishonest.

Scripture confirms scripture, but for you mental gymnastics and isolating scripture out of Biblical context to fit your peculiar eisegesis seems to be how you present the facade of your contradictory views.
---Haz27 on 1/18/18


The natural man, also includes mind, cannot understand the things of the Spirit, because they are Spiritually discerned. So no, physic powers is not necessary here, nor will claiming you have them lead you into truth, beware, that's called ( GNOSTICISM)....,HOWEVER, the Holy Spirit is the one who leads you into all truth. He is our TEACHER. Without His guidance it's impossible to understand what the Lord is teaching us.

The Gospel message however should be understood by all. ****Romans 10:9-10.. 1 Cor 15:1-4****
---kathr4453 on 1/18/18


john9346:

I believe what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS. I don't necessarily believe what people use psychic powers to read beteen the lines but isn't actually there.


Haz27:

I hadn't answered john9346's question because I was extremely busy the last few days. I DO have a life outside CN. Also, I have had to waste so much time answering your constant badgering, and the blog doesn't let me post two replies at once, that I haven't had the opportunity to reply to it yet.

I see your "deflection" record player is still playing.

As john9346 said, you reject scripture,

WRONG. See above.


kathr4453:

I agree that was splitting hairs and choking on gnats. Can we all please move on?
---StrongAxe on 1/17/18


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nicole ask, "Why do you both accept Martin Luther's 66 book Bible when he had a 73 Book Bible as a Catholic Bible?"



Nicole, cardinal cajetan and cardinal Seripando both rejected the apocrypha they both emphasize to follow Jerome in rejecting the apocrypha. If you as a follower of the rcc know anything about these men your arguments against Luther is "Unfounded."...
---john9346 on 1/17/18


"St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books."


(The New Catholic Encyclopedia, on The Canon).
---john9346 on 1/17/18


AXE. Note how john9346 also found debating with you a strain, saying
Strongaxe,....why not just be honest and say what you believe if you don't believe in Scripture just say it instead of pretending....

Your constant deflections, contortions and contradictions, etc likewise suggests to me that you were not being honest.

You wasted more than just 2 blogs with such dishonest tactics as I recall you did similar in previous topics also.

As john9346 said, you reject scripture, which seems to be the case considering how you isolate Matt 25 & 10, etc from the rest of the Bible to contort a doctrine that contradicts the gospel, and you then defend your flawed position with further contradictions.
---Haz27 on 1/17/18


Nicole, well, if the missing books represent money, and Luther somehow took the books for his private collection, ( like keeping the Mona Lisa ) then a crime has been committed.

So, when Luther was around were the common people THEN allowed to have their own personal Bibles? So your saying Luther owned a book publishing and binary company and made books for everyone, but chose not to include all 73? So if that is true, did it somehow interfere with the Gospel of salvation? I personally see in only the 66 books a COMPLETING of the knowledge of SALVATION and righteous living.

Will these other books CHANGE the Gospel? If not, then I don't see any worth there to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/18


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HELLO, Kathr and John, WHY do you both value money more than the Bible?

Why do you both accept Martin Luther's 66 book Bible when he had a 73 Book Bible as a Catholic Bible?

Again, if it was money you both would NOT be this understating of his STUPID excuse!

He does what God told you both NOT to do, but you both do what a man tells you all it is okay because he explains WHY it isn't Scripture in his opinion.

REALLY? Many Bible Scholars for centuries accepted the Scriptures, because SMART Luther wasn't born yet to figure it out.

Just read Revelation again and get a clue! Anyone includes Martin Luther.


---Nicole_Lacey on 1/17/18


kathr states, "Strongaxe, since scripture is God breathed, and God the Father KNOWS only He and the Holy Spirit were present at the moment Jesus was raised from the dead, there can be no other definition of those who witnessed Jesus Resurrection,"

Kathr, not sure if you are aware strongaxe doesn't believe Scripture is, "God-breathe."
---john9346 on 1/17/18


Haz27:

Your broken record keeps playing the same tracks of "deflection", "obfuscation", and "victim narrative" over and over again. I'm tired of it, and I'm done. You already wasted two blogs with this discussion. I won't waste my time hittimg my head against the wall with you to totally waste a third one.

Jesus refused to debate the Pharisees when he saw it was pointles to do so. I do the same with you.

I spend far more time away from CN than on it

This is the wisest thing I've heard you say yet.

And I suggest that YOU use scripture to confirm scripture, rather than fantasizing nebulous interpretations from one scripture and then shoving those interpretations into others.
---StrongAxe on 1/17/18


AXE. Again you contradict yourself.
You claim Matt 25 & 10 speak of NON Christians who are saved SOLELY by works, NOT faith.
And when I confront you about your doctrine which contradicts the gospel, you then contradict yourself with your strained mental gymnastics on Matt 25 & 10.

And please...if your routine of deflection, obfuscation, and victim narrative wasn't bad enough, you now even resort to boasting about how many likes you have on CN compared to me. Considering that my time on CN has been a fraction of yours (I spend far more time away from CN than on it) it seems you're getting desperate.
I suggest you use scripture to confirm scripture instead of making irrelevant boasts to bolster your position.
---Haz27 on 1/17/18


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AXE. john9346 asked you the question "Are you an agnostic? atheist? A follower of Liberal Theology?"

I'm sure others here (like myself) are also wondering the same considering the odd claims you make that contradict the gospel.

Still waiting on you to actually justify your false doctrine that Matt 25 & 10, etc refer to NON Christians being saved based SOLELY on works, NOT faith.

But of course you and I both know that you will just continue to deflect and obfuscate, as you so often do.
---Haz27 on 1/16/18


Haz27:

I have repeatedly said that I don't believe this, yet you keep parroting this nonsense over and over again.

You are also very presumptuous to speak for everyone here. Have a look yourself to see how many here have found my posts useful, and how many have found your posts useful. I let them speak for themselves.

Your 1/11/18 post claims Matthew 25 is just a parable, but that doesn't explain it at all. Try again.

I am not arguing salvation solely on works, only that Matthew 10+25 don't mention faith. Stop twisting my words!

I also said you have until the end of that blog to argue it. That blog is over. I'm done.
---StrongAxe on 1/16/18


AXE. All here on CN can see your false gospel claims non Christians (those who reject JC) are saved based SOLELY on works.

I answered your question about Matt 25 on why would Christians ask such a question (1/11/18).
And the scriptures I quoted giving spiritual descriptors for deeds in Matt 25 clearly fit.

You insist, without any scriptural support, that Matt 25, 10, etc refer to NON Christians (those who REJECT JC), claiming they're saved based SOLELY on works.
And then you contradict yourself when cornered about your salvation by works doctrine for the unsaved.

Scripture confirms scripture. I suggest you stop taking Matt 25 & 10, etc in isolation, to argue salvation based SOLELY on works.

---Haz27 on 1/16/18


Strongaxe, since scripture is God breathed, and God the Father KNOWS only He and the Holy Spirit were present at the moment Jesus was raised from the dead, there can be no other definition of those who witnessed Jesus Resurrection, than those who saw Him after the stone was rolled away. Since God is not confused, nor submitting a trick question of splitting hairs, then we must conclude that those who witnessed the Resurrection of Jeus Christ are exactly those scripture defines as those who saw Him during those 40 days after they witnessed His death until He ascended into Heaven. Scripture also,states that He will return THE SAME WAY as He ascended. THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED, nor will it until the 2nd Coming, when ALL eyes will see.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/18


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strongaxe:

Sir, you are misunderstanding what I am saying and what Scripture is saying. I stated according to Acts 1:21-25 that the Apostolic Criteria is that one must have been an Eyewitness of the Resurrected Christ, it was never stated the actual resurrection...

See qualifications again:

1. One had to be ordained by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

2. One had to be appointed by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

3. One had to be an Eyewitness of the Resurrected Christ.

No one alive today can meet these qualifications...
---john9346 on 1/16/18


strongaxe states, "It's not that I disbelieve what scripture says, just what people read between the lines."

And sir respectfully on the Essentials thats everything... and this is the sin of "Unbelief."

Strongaxe, to reject the "Scriptures." is to reject God my friend...

You say God is your Ultimate Authority, but not the God who is revealed in the Holy Scriptures my friend...

Sir, why not just be honest and say what you believe if you don't believe in Scripture just say it instead of pretending... Not trying to afend you sir, but I am asking you to be honest...

Are you an agnostic? atheist? A follower of Liberal Theology?
---john9346 on 1/16/18


strongaxe ask, "How can you say categorically there are no more apostles?"

Good question,According to Scripture there were 3 qualifications that had to be met in order to be an apostle:

1. One had to be ordained by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

2. One had to be appointed by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

3. One had to be an Eyewitness of the Resurrected Christ.

Sir, who do you know today by name who meets all of these qualifications? Tell me, so I can go see them :-)

Also, see, Rev 21:14

---john9346 on 1/16/18


john9346:

JESUS was seen of Cephas (later). Cephas was NOT personally present in the tomb.
Your message said nothing about any sin I must repent "lest I imperil my soul".
The ultimate authority? God.
It's not that I disbelieve what scripture says, just what people read between the lines.


kathr4453:

Acts 1:22+4:33 speak about witnesses of the resurrection PHENOMENON rather than the resurrection EVENT, and I pointed out that these are slightly different, but yes, it's splitting hairs.

In court, the distinction is important - if I smashed your car and you later saw me sitting in it, you could say "the car was smashed and he was in it", but not "he smashed my car".
---StrongAxe on 1/16/18


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The Bible clearly states those who saw Jesus for those 40 days before He ascended into heaven were in fact WITNESSES OF JESUS RESURRECTION. Did anyone have to be in the sealed tomb with Jesus at the very moment the instant He was made alive. NO, but that doesn't mean no one witnessed His resurrection. Actually Thomas said he wouldn't believe Jesus rose from the dead until he saw with his own eyes. Ans so that happened. But Jesus said blessed are those who don't see but believe.

To make it sound like you had to be in the tomb with Jesus to witness His resurrection is playing games here ....

The BIBLE clarified many witnessed His resurrection and the BIBLE defines what that means EXACTLY.
---kathr4453 on 1/15/18


strongaxe states, "Nowhere does 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 say ANYONE witnessed the resurrection."

Sir, Respectfully, Your stating falsely...

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James, then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
---john9346 on 1/15/18


strongaxe said, "What, exactly do I need to repent OF? We were talking about whether the canon is closed - so I asked you to show me which scripture REQUIRED proper belief about the canon in order to be saved."

Sir, you have been provided those Scriptures as well as the Scriptures concerning the close of the canon, the ceasing of revelation, and there are no more apostles today...

Sir, why not just be honest and say you don't believe in Scripture?

For the third time ""Strongaxe, tell me, what is your "Ultimate Authority?" for faith and practice??"



---john9346 on 1/15/18


Nicole states, "John, I have quoted many of Jerome citing his disagreement but declaring he will submission to the Pope and the Church."

Ma'am, respectfully, about Jerome you refuse to read Jerome's Words in its complete context. Nicole, that is dishonest ma'am... Also, the source you cited was a RCC Source that cited parts of Jerome not his full conversation...

There is nothing to discuss on Luther having a 73 books bible because when he came to the truth he realize he had been lied to just like on everything else...

You still haven't provided 3 sources prior to Luther that show the apocrypha has always been "Scripture."
---john9346 on 1/15/18


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john9346:

Nowhere does 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 say ANYONE witnessed the resurrection. It happened before the stone was rolled away. Many people saw the resurrected Jesus AFTER the resurrection, but nobody actually saw the resurrection. Apostles didn't even believe until women told them about it.

I never said Paul wasn't an apostle - only that he didn't meet a set of 3 criteria that you set forth (which means your criteria were incorrect).

Sir, I pray you'll repent and believe before its to late for you...

What, exactly do I need to repent OF? We were talking about whether the canon is closed - so I asked you to show me which scripture REQUIRED proper belief about the canon in order to be saved.
---StrongAxe on 1/14/18


Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead,)

Paul made the 12th apostle after Judas died. The one picked by Peter re lots, was by man, and no one ever heard his name again.

Revelation states there are 12 Apostles as the foundation of the New Heaven, and 12 Tribes that represent the walls.

Anything else people believe is MAN MADE SCRIPTURE. God chose Paul to reveal the Gospel according to the MYSTERY, ..........which is CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.

Paul said of himself he is the LEASE of the Apostles because he persecuted the Church.
---kathr4453 on 1/15/18


John, I have quoted many of Jerome citing his disagreement but declaring he will submission to the Pope and the Church.

But you REFUSE to TOUCH the elephant in the room of Luther having a 73 Book Bible as a Catholic Priest.

WHY?

SPEAK about that point
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/14/18


strongaxe:

You stated falsely because Paul stated who he seen not, "Received." sir,furthremore, Paul corrects you because you are trying to argue Paul isn't an apostle but Paul did meet the Apostolic Criteria see 1 Cor 15:3-8...
---john9346 on 1/14/18


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strongaxe states, "Nothing in this passage says anything about "canon", nor anything about "salvation"."

First, remember you ask for salvation not for the canon i've all ready given you Scripture for the close of the canon. Another verse for the close of the canon is Jude 1:3...

Next, if you reject 2 Tim 3:16-17 explain what makes one wise unto salvation?

Explain, what is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?

Strongaxe, please explain to everyone here what makes the man of God perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works??
---john9346 on 1/14/18


Strongaxe,

I would like for you to tell me and everyone else here, "Strongaxe, tell me, what is your "Ultimate Authority?" for faith and practice??

This is my Second Time asking you.
---john9346 on 1/14/18


john9346:

You wrote: False what he actually stated is, "8 And last of all...

Exactly. He was seen AFTER the resurrection. Nobody saw the resurrection AS IT WAS TAKING PLACE (which is what I said, and in bold face to make it clear).

I wrote: Show me where scripture requires proper belief about whether the canon is closed or not as a prerequisite for salvation.

You wrote: 2 Tim 3:16-17

Nothing in this passage says anything about "canon", nor anything about "salvation".
---StrongAxe on 1/14/18


Nicole states, "Jerome quoted from the books and CALLED them Scriptures as I proved to you."

No ma'am, you cited 2 of Jerome's Statements,however, when the context is actually addressed that wasn't even Jerome's Point. So the readers are not confused Jerome believed that the apocrypha books were good for reading, but he made very clear that they were not, "Scripture."

Remember my question to you is to cite 3 sources before the Council of Trent that state that the apocrypha was "Scripture."

Luther was following the Glossa Ordinaria the same that Jerome followed that prooves that the books that the rcc claims as Scripture weren't "Scripture."
---john9346 on 1/13/18


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strongaxe states, "1 Cor 15:3-8: "I also RECEIVED", not "I SAW"."

False what he actually stated is, "8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." 1 /Cor 15:8. This answers your objection to Paul not meetting Biblical Apostolic Criteria...

strongaxe states, "Also, the apostles saw Jesus AFTER the Resurrection."

Yes, that is what made them apostles sir.

"Show me where scripture requires proper belief about whether the canon is closed or not as a prerequisite for salvation."

2 Tim 3:16-17

Strongaxe, tell me, what is your "Ultimate Authority?" for faith and practice??
---john9346 on 1/13/18


Nicole states, "St. Jerome quotes Proverbs 25:23 as fulfilling Scriptures, in the plural. Not just one Scripture. He then quotes the two Scriptures that it fulfills. One is Psalm 128:57 and another is Sirach 27:25. Scripture is thus fulfilled. Not ecclesiastical usage is fulfilled, but specific Scriptures are fulfilled. Notice that Psalm 128:57 is fulfilled by the proverb, but St. Jerome specifically also says another passage, which happens to be Sirach,"

This is "Patently False." The context of par 19 is addressing the Behavior of Monks and not the Apocrypha being "Scripture."

Ma'am, I'd suggest you read it... the context starts at par 1 not 19.






---john9346 on 1/13/18


John: me: "We have evidence that people had the SAME 73 Book Bible BEFORE and AFTER that Council."

Ma'am, lets start with 3 of these supposed sources before the Council of Trent??//

3???

Sir, there has been MORE than 3 Christian people who were lived before the 16th Century

You keep bypassing the UNCONVENTIONAL truth that Luther had a 73 Bible when he was a Priest.

Jerome quoted from the books and CALLED them Scriptures as I proved to you.

The Truth that I have the same 73 Book Bible they BOTH were speaking about and you don't.

How is it that the SAME books of the Bible they are arguing about happens to be in my Bible today?

Because they were in their own BIBLES as well.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/13/18


john9346:

You wrote: Because the canon is closed no more revelation see, Eph 2:19-20, 2 Pet 1:19-21

Eph 2:19-20: Citizenship says nothing anything about the canon being closed.
2 Peter 1:19-21 doesn't say holy men can no longer by moved.
1 Cor 15:3-8: "I also RECEIVED", not "I SAW". Also, the apostles saw Jesus AFTER the Resurrection. Nobody saw the resurrection while it was ACTUALLY happening (unlike the Transfiguration).
Mark 16:1-8, Jn 20:1-9: also AFTER.

Sir, I pray you'll repent and believe before its to late for you...

Show me where scripture requires proper belief about whether the canon is closed or not as a prerequisite for salvation. You're choking on gnats.
---StrongAxe on 1/13/18


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Monk, God did not set up some earthly institution FORCING anyone OR be killed, in any way shape or form. Faith comes by HEARING, not death threats or FORCED RELIGION. Even the Nation of Israel was NEVER told to FORCE God on anyone, but be a LIGHT to the Nations. The whole institution of the RCC was FORCED RELIGION, with the threat of death, beheading torture or burning at the stake ANYONE who disagreed with any part of those who claimed to be in AUTHORITY. The AUTHORITY of the Gospel is given to all Christians to preach, but was NEVER used as some tool to FORCE Christianity on anyone, taking away a person's conscience and FORCING a way of life on people someone else decided was right or wrong. This is what is known as a CULT.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/18


Monk, I believe 1 Cor 3-4 address the issue of...IM OF THIS ONE OR THAT ONE, again long before any RCC came into being. Even those who came in Galatia...who were Christian Jews tried to put Gentiles under the Law....and again even in Rev, the letters to the 7 Churches, talked about those bringing in heresy and division, as well as 2John and 3 John, and Peter addressed, James addressed.

So more than likely these began sects , Just like Israel itself did, having Sadducees, Pharisees, etc.

So,yes, there have always been divisions and sects....

And there always will be...ITS CALLED FREE WILL.

---kathr4453 on 1/12/18


The inspiration of book of Jude is shown by the witness of other inspired books. "Rebellious angels not keeping their proper abode being kept in chains," for instance is witness by "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment," 2Pe 2:4 "The prophesy of Enoch" concerning the return of Jesus is also witnessed by other scriptures, even by Jesus himself. You asked StrongAxe, "Why do you?" put much value on it, is implied. I'll ask, Why not? Why would what's written in the book, be questioned by anyone?
---Josef on 1/12/18


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: Much of this comes from extra-biblical writings and is even discussed in some Kabbalah teaching.

Where it comes from is irrelevant, if it is quoted authoritatively in scripture. If Jude said it and believed it, and Jude is the Word of God, then it's true, no?

Why do you?

To provide a reductio ad absurdum argument against those whose criterion of canonicity is whether a work is quoted in scripture. Anyone who does this must rip Esther out of their bible and replace it with Enoch.
---StrongAxe on 1/12/18


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meaning he personally believed Enoch wrote it, and WE Consider Jude to be inspired scripture...
---StrongAxe on 1/11/18

There is much in Jude that is unexplained. Rebellious angels not keeping their proper abode being kept in chains, Michael arguing over the body of Moses, and the quoting of the prophesy of Enoch.

Much of this comes from extra-biblical writings and is even discussed in some Kabbalah teaching.

Most Christian Biblical scholars and Christian Theologians do not use this information for doctrine or dogma. Even Judaic Biblical scholars do not put much value on it.

Why do you?
---Mark_Eaton on 1/12/18


Kathr4453 said, " Monk, I Don't see through the Epistles, or the 7 churches in Revelation, any church called the RCC. Even the council for the Christian Churches were in Jerusalem so says Galatians...I'm sure there was probably some headquarters in Jerusalem but it never professed to be anything like the RCC claimed to be."

Is there, in the Bible, an Assembly of God Church? Baptist? Lutheran? Any of the others that are around now? Non-denominational?

When you prove that these existed before the reform, THEN, and only then will I be willing to talk to you about the Roman Catholic Church.
---Monk_Brendan on 1/12/18


Thank you John very good points.

There was a recent show on the History channel about James the forgotten brother of Jesus. It also spoke on the Ossuary.

Peter reported to James the Bishop of Jerusalem. Which was first. Long before there was a Church in Rome.

Sola Scriptura is what is taught in the Bible.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 1/12/18


Nicole states, "We have evidence that people had the SAME 73 Book Bible BEFORE and AFTER that Council."

Ma'am, lets start with 3 of these supposed sources before the Council of Trent??

Luther was following the Glossa Ordinaria the same that Jerome followed that prooves that the books that the rcc claims as Scripture weren't "Scripture."

Nicole, i'm going to hold you to providing at least 3 sources that proove as you state, "We have evidence that people had the SAME 73 Book Bible BEFORE and AFTER that council."

My emphasis to you is before the council of trent.

Cite sources names, context, paragraphs, and verses(no rcc sources) (biased)
---john9346 on 1/11/18


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Monk, I Don't see through the Epistles, or the 7 churches in Revelation, any church called the RCC. Even the council for the Christian Churches were in Jerusalem so says Galatians...I'm sure there was probably some headquarters in Jerusalem but it never professed to be anything like the RCC claimed to be.

And the council was headed by James, and no one called him a pope. He never claimed such a title. Now the Bereans searched the SCRIPTURES daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. You seem to think folks had no access to scriptures until the RCC???? Really??? Actually it was the RCC that took them away from people, claiming they were to ignorant to search the scriptures daily to see if what you all were teaching was true.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/18


Monk Brendan states, "And you believe that the Reformers were smarter than 1500 years of Christianity? Remember, there have been many wise men in that 1500 years, whose experience we use, and you have only 500 years of the Reform."

Well, Jerome, Athanasius, Augustine, and Cyril of Jerusalem certainly lived many many years before the reformers and they surely rejected the apocrypha...

The reformers didn't reject the Church Fathers their call was to return back to Sola Scriptura a belief and practice believed, taught, and defended by the fathers...
---john9346 on 1/11/18


FWIW, the Ethiopian Church accepts the Books of Enoch as Scripture.

\\As I stated, Jesus and the Apostles did not quote the Apocrypha.\\

Mark, they didn't quote from Jeremiah, Esther, or Song of Solomon as well. Do we likewise reject them on that ground?

David, you accused Monk Brendan of getting his information from the bottom of a whiskey bottle. Is this an example of YOUR love? And where do you get YOUR information? From an old WATCHTOWER peeled from the bottom of a bird cage?

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan.
---Cluny on 1/11/18


Finally, David, if you are not a Trinitarian, believing in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then according to the Seven Ecumenical Councils, you are NOT a Christian, because you believe in a God, plus another divine person, Jesus, who, while Jesus is totally subservient to God, still retains divinity, and you believe in A Holy Spirit, still another divine being who also is subservient to God.

I count THREE divine beings, not one. That is idolatry. Beware!
---Monk_Brendan on 1/11/18


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Mark_Eaton:

Jude not only quoted 1 Enoch but specifically wrote "Enoch, the seventh from Adam wrote...", meaning he personally believed Enoch wrote it, and WE consider Jude to be inspired scripture - i.e. the Word of GOD.


David8318:

One doesn't get much love from your Jehovah's Witnesses either, who use disfellowshipping to tear apart families of those who join them, and those who dare question their unquestionable teachings.


Nicole_Lacey:

I'm still curious why taking money from the rich who earned it and giving it to the poor is robbery, EXCEPT in Puerto Rico, where the government should break the law and not pay workers their legally-mandated bonuses they earned, in order to feed the poor?
---StrongAxe on 1/11/18


Kathr4453 said, " Monk Firstly, I'm not a reformed anything, nor am I a Protestant...And again there were Christians long before there was a Catholic Church,...REJECTED by my Christian forefathers."

Sorry for the breaks, I have to fit my answer too.

Forgive, me, Kathr, I hate to rain on your parade. The Original Ancient Christians are the direct ancestors to the Catholic Community of Churches, and the other Pre-Reformation Churches. There were no other Christians before that time.

And as far as books being rejected by your Christian forbears, [HONK!], sorry, wrong answer. If your mother was not Jewish, then YOU are not Jewish.
---Monk_Brendan on 1/11/18


David 8318 said, "If I were a searcher, I certainly wouldn't find any love from MonkBrendan or his crowd. In fact there are many fleeing from "hellish" churches MonkBrendan belongs to and coming to the truth."

And obviously no love from David, who has anathematized me on these blogs, simply because I am Catholic.

The love you don't share from God will put you in danger, and the ACID that you share can hurt you, physically.
---Monk_Brendan on 1/11/18


Actually Jude 1:14-15:
---StrongAxe on 1/10/18

I stand by my statement.

As I stated, Jesus and the Apostles did not quote the Apocrypha.

Jesus certainly did not write the book of Jude.

The suspected author of the book of Jude is Judas, the half-brother of Jesus. Judas was not called to be an Apostle, and likely became a follower of Jesus after Jesus death. We know this from John 7:5, where Jesus brothers did not believe in Him. That would have included Jude. Therefore, Jude did not get his instruction and direction directly from Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/11/18


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StrongAxe: You all are not thinking logically. If Martin Luther had a 73 Book Bible as a Catholic Priest BEFORE he left the Catholic Church why DON'T you all have the SAME NUMBER OF BOOKS IN YOUR BIBLE.

It isn't difficult folks. Stop with the excuses.

A 9 year old could figure that out if asked. COMMON SENSE.

Johe: Nicole states, "So, you let a mere man decide for you what part of the Bible is of value or not?"//

John, the Council of Trent occurred in the 16th century.

We have evidence that people had the SAME 73 Book Bible BEFORE and AFTER that Council

I am debating the logic of you all defending your 66 book Bible when Luther had a 73 book Bible?

Your point?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/11/18


Monk Firstly, I'm not a reformed anything, nor am I a Protestant. Believe it or not Jewish and Gentile Disciples were first called Christians, and still are. And again there were Christians long before there was a Catholic Church, and there were scriptures long before there were NT Christians. NOW many of the books were written during OT times and REJECTED by my Christian forefathers.

Today, anyone CAN get these books in a bookstore. I read all of them and did not discern the HOLY SPIRIT in them. So there are others as well....Jesus marrying Mary Mag and having children...I ALSO REJECT. Truths come in 2s and 3's and these books DO NOT BEAR WITNESS OF TRUTH. just like the Book of Mormon DOES NOT BEAR TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 1/10/18


Mark_Eaton:

Actually Jude 1:14-15:
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

directly quotes 1 Enoch 1:9:
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
---StrongAxe on 1/10/18


Monk you forget that the Jew understood them to be good books but not scripture.

Nor that many Scholars over the centuries looked on them as lessor. So not 1500 years of history.

By the way I have read them. I have a Catholic Bible that I have read. Plus a Second that I have only half read.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/10/18


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They just didn't rock my world, or change or add anything to my beliefs...They actually contradicted.
---kathr4453 on 1/10/18

My feelings don't have anything to do with my rejection of the Apocryphal Books.

My belief is based upon the authority and authorship of the books.

The Hebrews did not consider the Apocryphal writings as Scripture. Jesus and the Apostles never quoted from the Apocryphal writings. If these two groups did not consider them inspired, why should I?

Many authors of the Extra-Biblical NT writing are disputed or even false. For example, the Gospel of Thomas was not written by Thomas, the Apostle. Such issues with authorship bring questions to the integrity of the Books.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/10/18


Kathr4435 said, "No one STOLE the books because they were of such value. They left them out because they did not see the value."

And you believe that the Reformers were smarter than 1500 years of Christianity? Remember, there have been many wise men in that 1500 years, whose experience we use, and you have only 500 years of the Reform.

Kathr, just because you and most other Reform Protestants have drunk of the Kool-aid of the Reform, and believed that the Bible only has 66 books does NOT mean that you are right. It only means that what you believe MAY be the truth, but what WE believe IS true.
---Monk_Brendan on 1/10/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Luther is not greater than God, but neither are the Fathers who decided to include the Apocrypha. God didn't dictate the Book of Contents. Decisions for and against were made by fallible men. God could have sent an angel to set the issue straight, but has declined to do so.

Even so, nobody would believe it. Mormons claim the angel Moroni sent Joseph Smith revelations, but most Christians don't believe that, and Muslims claim the angel Gabriel sent Mohammed revelations, but Christians don't believe that either. Paul said we should reject messages that differed from his, even if brought by an angel. Besides, most people have fixed ideas and would reject an angel as Pharisees rejected Jesus.
---StrongAxe on 1/10/18


Nicole states, "So, you let a mere man decide for you what part of the Bible is of value or not?"

Nicole, why do you allow the Council of Trent to decide what parts of the bible you will believe?

Like Kathr pointed out to you the books were rejected because of contradictions.

Nicole, we have dialogged this many times and I am wondering have you ever taken time to read these books??
---john9346 on 1/10/18


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Nicole, TODAY we live in an era where anyone can get a hold of these books on their own and believe them or not. We don't have big PAPPA Popes telling us what and what not to believe or read.

So no one is depriving anyone of these extra books. I personally have read them and REJECT THEM as God breathed scripture. They just didn't rock my world, or change or add anything to my beliefs... They actually contradicted. But since you don't have discernment, you will eat anything. I can't help you there.

Do you get it now Nicole. It's a non issue today. Move on .
---kathr4453 on 1/10/18


Kathr: there is no sense trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Your cognitive skills are somewhat different than most folks. No one STOLE the books because they were of such value. They left them out because they did not see the value//

First, it was YOU not me who used the word 'stole'.

So, you let a mere man decide for you what part of the Bible is of value or not?

So you don't believe God in Revelation 22:18-19 or Deuteronomy 4:2?

Martin Luther is greater than God to you?

//Get it now?//

Yes, and I will pray for you.

//Please don't bother responding back with more nonsense comparisons.//

No, I am trying to reason with you.

I think there is hope in you.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/9/18


Nicole, there is no sense trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Your cognitive skills are somewhat different than most folks.

No one STOLE the books because they were of such value. They left them out because they did not see the value.

Get it now? I didn't think so.

Please don't bother responding back with more nonsense comparisons.
---kathr4453 on 1/9/18


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