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Should We Pay Taxes

Many people on CN claim it is fair and good for people to pay taxes and we should even pay MORE. Doesn't the Bible suggest taxes are unjust? Even calling the Collectors Sinners Matt 9:9-13 and Luke 19:1-10

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 1/23/18
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Nicole_Lacey:

The verse you gave was telling everyone to pay taxes, but JESUS NEVER PAID TAXES TO THE ROMANS.

EVERYONE is supposed to pay taxes, so how was Jesus exempt? Wasn't he a person, so a part of "everyone"? (Especially since "God in three persons" depends on Jesus being a "person").

NOR did Jesus told us to pay taxes.

Yet he said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". What can that possibly mean OTHER than taxes, especially as he said it it while holding a Roman coin?

Of course only 49% of Americans are Threaten the others get a check instead.

Boasting "I'm better than these leeches" sounds like the Pharisee and the Publican.
---StrongAxe on 2/8/18


Nicole, if Joseph and Mary paid taxes, so did Jesus. What would have excluded Jesus? His father died, he was oldest, he being oldest was probably responsible for His Mothers bills....

NO SCRIPTURE CLEARLY STATES JESUS DID NOT PAY TAXES.

Now if YOU decide NOT to pay taxes, stating you can prove Jesus never paid them, and the US Government has no problem with that...good for you.

Otherwise...no one is going to find SALVATION by arguing whether Jesus paid taxes.

So AGAIN NICOLE....I personally don't care what you believe. You can't PROVE anything here.

When you have absolute PROOF, then get back to me...but until then...this conversation IS GETTING BOORING....and your continued bullying is also BOORING.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/18


Kathr: Nicole, I gave you my answer, backed it up with what Paul reiterated in Romans 13....but you reject scripture. I can't help you there.//

No where in Paul's letters did He said that Jesus PAID Taxes to the Romans as you claimed and which I asked chapter and verse for this statement:

//What we do know Nicole, is the census was used by the TAX collectors to collect tax for Ceasar. The coin Jesus provided was to pay this TAX -Kathr4453 on 2/4/18

Shame on you for thinking people on CN are stupid.

The verse you gave was telling everyone to pay taxes, but JESUS NEVER PAID TAXES TO THE ROMANS.

NOR did Jesus told us to pay taxes.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/8/18


Kathr: A TAX in the form of a FORCED TITHE, used specifically to enrich the clergy....not the poor.//

So, is that's what Protestants do with their forced collected tithes?

No wonder you all get 3 times MORE than Catholics.

//A SEPARATE box, where people were not FORCED to give was for the poor.//

Do you have a box for the poor?

//Our government taxes are NOT said to be a Tithe using scripture out of context to fleece the ignorant.//

No it's worst. It's FORCED donation which most are taken before being paid.

The rest are THREATEN with prison time if NOT paid.

Of course only 49% of Americans are Threaten the others get a check instead.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/8/18


Nicole, I gave you my answer, backed it up with what Paul reiterated in Romans 13....but you reject scripture. I can't help you there.

You claim Paul went AGAINST Jesus teaching...HE DID NOT. And YES, those verses are every bit as important.

Now please find someone else to bully. I don't want to play with you anymore.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/18




Nicole, you've c gotten off subject and no one knows WHAT the question is anymore. You claim taxes are bad, and I showed a time when the RCC ruled in Europe, Ireland etc, they took what only belonged to Israel THE NATION ( tithing) and turned it into a TERROR unleashed on those under Roman Rule, calling it a TAX. A TAX in the form of a FORCED TITHE, used specifically to enrich the clergy....not the poor. A SEPARATE box, where people were not FORCED to give was for the poor.

I'm not sure if the Protestant POPE Calvin forced a TITHE TAX on the citizens of Geneva. If so, that was WRONG as well.

Our government taxes are NOT said to be a Tithe using scripture out of context to fleece the ignorant. THAT Jesus would not be for.
---kathr4453 on 2/7/18


Kathr: Question 1 Nicole is the blog question YOU asked....please look at it above. There IS no other question.//

You are so busy trying to AVOID answering my question you FORGOT the question.

I will help you and others on CN what the question was to your statement.

I asked you to give chapter and verse to your misleading statement:

//What we do know Nicole, is the census was used by the TAX collectors to collect tax for Ceasar. The coin Jesus provided was to pay this TAX -Kathr4453 on 2/4/18

//I answered it...you don't like my answer, then because you don't like it,.//

I don't like it because I don't like people misleading the GOSPEL just to promote their abuses of others.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18


Kathr, you really believe in the saying 'All roads leads to Rome.'

Because NO MATTER what subject we are talking about, you SOMEHOW bring in the Catholic Church which happens to be outside of Rome.

Kathr:...On top of that they did have a box that said FOR THE POOR, that was collected above and beyond the forced tithe and tax.//

You know, Protestant Churches on average collect 3 times MORE than Catholics from tithing from their members.

So, if you claim our tithing is FORCED and we collect 3 times LESS than you all, what SYSTEM are you Protestants using for your SEVERE HIGH RATE TAX ENFORCEMENT?

I guess that's why you all don't NEED a POOR BOX LIKE us Catholics.

Since we have different tax rates :D
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18


Question 1 Nicole is the blog question YOU asked....please look at it above. There IS no other question.

I answered it...you don't like my answer, then because you don't like it, you badger and badger and nag and nag and provoke with stupid remarks.

My answer will never change Nicole. Strongaxe won't change his either. So why not just accept that... WE DISAGREE WITH YOU. Deal with it.
---kathr4453 on 2/7/18


Kathr: I guess too, back in the olden days, the military was paid by the SPOILS OF WAR....rape pillaging and plundering the assets of the enemy.//

You WANT to keep taxes TODAY because the Romans created taxes not me.

//We kinda did that in Iraq ....destroying museums and stealing artifacts//

ISIS not us. Which Obama gave them their SPACE to do that havoc.

Trump STOP THEM!

Mad because Iraqis are getting their Country back?

//Gosh look at the plunder Hitler engaged in stealing art works etc,//

The USA stopped him as well.

//But even with that I bet Germany STILL paid their military.//

Soooo, you are happy that Hitler' military got paid, but AGAINST our military from getting paid????
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18




Kathr: ..see question 1".//

OKAY where is question 1?????

That is what the Professor would ask you!

BTW, you couldn't answer any question like that. You would have to answer it AGAIN!

//Stating I already answered the question, does NOT mean I don't know the answer.//

NO, it is the famous and most used SCAPEGOAT on CN.

//If I don't know the answer...I would say...sorry, I don't know the answer.//

The LEAST used response on CN.

//Now Nicole....did you go to College? And YOU fail to see the difference?//

COME ON Kathr, you know I did because you LOVE to tell everyone it was FREE!

Kathr, Israel and Roman predates Jesus' birth which predates the Catholic Church.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18


Did you go to College? Soooo, when you didn't know an answer you WROTE on the paper 'I already answered this question'?////

No Nicole, but if the question was a duplicate, I would say... " duplicate question...I already answered ...see question 1".

Stating I already answered the question, does NOT mean I don't know the answer. If I don't know the answer...I would say...sorry, I don't know the answer. I wouldn't say ..I ALREADY ANSWERED THAT, AND HAVE NOTHING TO ADD TO THE ANSWER I ALREADY GAVE.

Now Nicole....did you go to College? And YOU fail to see the difference?
---kathr4453 on 2/7/18


Nicole, what is really WRONG is how the RCC took something only for the NATION of Israel, and FORCED IT on those the RCC had power over...forced tithe and also called a tax. It wasn't for the poor Nicole, but used for war, and to fill the Popes piggy bank...and used to build the Vatican, and many privately owned castles given to Cardinals etc.

On top of that they did have a box that said FOR THE POOR, that was collected above and beyond the forced tithe and tax.

Now I know Jesus would have a problem with that....not being different than the money changers in the Temple.....

The difference is.our government doesn't do that in the name of God....
---kathr4453 on 2/6/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Luke 2:2 (NIV): This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

This wasn't the first census EVER, just the first during Quirinius's governorship.

Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus DIDN'T pay taxes. At BEST you can say "The Bible doesn't say for sure whether he did or didn't", so we must make deductions about it (just as we deduce he went to the bathroom like everyone else, even though the Bible doesn't mention it).

Jesus NEVER said it was WRONG to pay taxes.

Sons DON'T pay tax. Jesus was NOT a son of Rome. Therefore, he had to pay Roman tax.
---StrongAxe on 2/6/18


I guess too, back in the olden days long long ago far far away, the military was paid by the SPOILS OF WAR....rape pillaging and plundering the assets of the enemy. We kinda did that in Iraq ....destroying museums and stealing artifacts .....it does happen in all wars. Gosh look at the plunder Hitler engaged in stealing art works etc, even putting wealthy Jews in camps JUST SO he could plunder their private property.

But even with that I bet Germany STILL paid their military.

And I bet those who were Crusade leaders were paid with property, and castles etc.

Nothing comes free Nicole.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/18


StrongAxe focus, I said Jesus NEVER paid taxes and agrees with me about paying taxes according to the Bible.

They collected taxes BEFORE Caesar Augustus and the Bible is clear on saying he was the FIRST to conduct a census

//EVERYONE had to pay taxes.//

Jesus is part of everyone. He didn't pay taxes.

//It doesn't say he went to the bathroom either.//

But they DIDN'T ask Him if He went to the bathroom either.

But they DID asked Him if it was right to pay taxes to Caesar.

So even back in their day it as a hot issue and people were FUSSING about paying taxes. Mark 12:14

//Yes but Jesus was NOT a son of ROME.---StrongAxe

Thus He DIDN'T PAY the Rome tax Only the Temple Tax from a fish.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/6/18


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ONLY IN 2009 51% did not pay FEDERAL TAX. That would be elderly where SS is not taxed, and POOR people earning below poverty level.

But as far as state and local, EVERYONE PAYS TAXES. ....even when you buy a loaf of bread.

Our state and local taxes DO NOT PAY OUR MILITARY...our FEDERAL TAXES DO.

So again, should we do away with the Military? Well, now that Trump has hacked off the majority of the world AND foolishly has egged
N Korea on.....you think the RCC is going to FUND the Military? Nuns carrying AK47's? Oh dear....will the RCC start up their military AGAIN...the Crusaders? I bet THEY GOT PAID....but then maybe they were promised 14 virgins in paradise...who knows.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Google: roman taxes israel

Romans conducted a census to determine how many people lived in each province, to calculate how much tax was due. Romans didn't collect the tax themselves. They hired local contractors, and told them how much was required. They weren't paid a wage. They had to collect the required amount and got to keep anything above that. They collected taxes from the locals, usually extorting much more than was due - which is why they were hated so much.

EVERYONE had to pay taxes. Even if the Bible doesn't record Jesus paying a tax, that doesn't mean he didn't. It doesn't say he went to the bathroom either.

the sons are EXEMPT

Yes but Jesus was NOT a son of ROME.
---StrongAxe on 2/6/18


Kathr: Nicole, I gave you my FINAL ANSWER. You won't get another one.//

Ooooh, so that's how you answer when you don't know the answer.

You pretend you gave answer, (Instead of reposting the answer, That's would be too logical)

Did you go to College? Soooo, when you didn't know an answer you WROTE on the paper 'I already answered this question'?

//If you see things differently....then that's on you.//

Yeah, seeing the truth rather than making up the truth is kinda important in the Catholic Church.

//and we all pay taxes.//

Noooo, 51% of Americans DO NOT pay taxes.

//This subject is now becoming BOORING.//

It always does when one is clueless.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/6/18


Nicole, I gave you my FINAL ANSWER. You won't get another one. If you see things differently....then that's on you. However I do not, and adulters are sinners too. We 're all sinners....and we all pay taxes.

If you don't like it Nicole, then tell the cashier at Kroger or wherever you buy groceries that she is a sinner because she is collecting tax on your purchase....or that car dealer. Just let Ford know you'll buy their car but you refuse to pay tax on it. Good luck with that.

This subject is now becoming BOORING.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/18


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Kathr, stay on topic and give chapter and verses to my questions. Stop running to Paul to bypass Jesus

Jesus Christ NEVER PAID TAXES PERIOD.

//So it appears Jesus approved of both these Taxes.//

No He didn't!

He disapproved. You are making stuff up.

Matthew 17:25-26

Jesus preempted him. What do you think, Simon? He asked. From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs and TAXES: from their own sons, or from others? From others, Peter answered. Then the sons are EXEMPT, Jesus declared.

Jesus is on my side!

//So I'm confused Nicole, exactly what is the issue?//

You distorting Scriptures.

//No where does Jesus state Taxes are unjust.//

Nowhere is in Matthew 17:24-27
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/6/18


So it appears Jesus approved of both these Taxes. So I'm confused Nicole, exactly what is the issue? No where does Jesus state Taxes are unjust. Maybe how they were collected with force ....but that has to,do with the person, and not the Taxes. One such time in history was how horrible the Irish were treated by England, and burnt their houses down if they didn't pay their taxes. Maybe in Rome TOO there was no mercy shown. But Jesus NEVER instructed anyone to rebel and lead a revolt against paying Taxes.

I sure hope FOX News is not putting these ideas in your head. They've done enough damage lately in giving wrong advise.
---kathr4453 on 2/5/18


Matthew 25:17... To give tribute...which was to render to Ceasar what is Ceasars....TAXES.

ALSO Paul tells us in Romans 13:1-7 to give or pay tribute , meaning TAXES to those in authority over you. That would be our governments. Kings were set up by God, even in Gentile Nations. Today we have governing bodies, presidents, parliament , etc. and we are also to obey those who,rule over us as well...our court systems , laws etc, including paying taxes.

Nicole, Paul would never contradict Jesus teachings, but establish them.
---kathr4453 on 2/5/18


Kathr: Nicole, you are the one confusing the Roman Tax with a Temple Tax.//

Really?

Let's see

//No one rendered to Ceasar a Temple Tax.---kathr4453on 2/5/18

That's my argument. Don't change the script

//What we do know Nicole, is the census was used by the Tax collectors to collect tax for Ceasar. The coin Jesus provided was to pay this TAX.//

Chapter and verse. Back it up

//Bottom line, TAXES WERE COLLECTED, and Jesus provided for Peter and Himself.//

That was a Temple tax.

If it WASN'T a Temple tax give chapter and verse and back it up.

Jesus never carried not one coin. He never paid a single tax. The Temple tax was from a fish.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/5/18


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Nicole, you are the one confusing the Roman Tax with a Temple Tax.

No one rendered to Ceasar a Temple Tax.
---kathr4453 on 2/5/18


Kathr: what we do know, is the census was used by the Tax collectors to collect tax for Ceasar.//

Incorrect. Because they collected taxes BEFORE the census.

Remember the Bible is clear on the fact that Caesar Augustus was the FIRST to conduct a census, NOT start a tax system.

//Bottom line, TAXES WERE COLLECTED, and Jesus provided for Peter and Himself.//

Nooooo, you are mixing Passages. Jesus NEVER gave the Romans a cent.

He ONLY asked to LOOK at the coin. In fact, He didn't even carry their coins.

He ONLY paid the Temple Tax AFTER He said He and Peter DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY the tax. Now that's bottom line.

Please stop confusing others about the Roman taxes with the Temple taxes.

Not nice.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/5/18


What we do know Nicole, is the census was used by the Tax collectors to collect tax for Ceasar. The coin Jesus provided was to pay this TAX.

So even if the census was done first in order to keep a list of people for the purpose of paying tax......shouldn't be a problem.

Bottom line, TAXES WERE COLLECTED, and Jesus provided for Peter and Himself.
---kathr4453 on 2/4/18


Also Nicole, it's possible the FIRST TIME, a census was taken they had to pay taxes then, and then AFTER that booths and employees would have been put into place. There were at lease 30 years between The time the FIRST census/tax took place and when Peter and Jesus paid a tax. Also no verse said they had to travel like Joseph and Mary.
---kathr4453 on 2/4/18


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No problems Kathr, my first Bible I read cover to cover was from my Baptist Grandmother KJV Bible.

Caesar Augustus conducted the FIRST CENSUS according to NIV and everyone had to go back to their own town. That's why they explains Joseph took Mary in her 9th month to Bethlehem.
NO man would dare to make his wife travel.

Romans had tax booth all over their conquered territory.

Taxes were collected before Caesar Augustus

StrongAxe, I finally found a KJV using the word 'tax' instead of 'census' POORLY translated.

BTW, Do you know what the phrase 'as plain as the nose on my face' mean?

Kathr, told me that but next wanted my to jump through hoops to understand.
No translations needed is it's plain.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/4/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: If it was plain as the nose on my face I wouldn't need to use a STRONG concordance to TRY to make the word 'census' mean 'taxation'.

The New Testament was written in Greek, not English. Luke 2 doesn't say "census" or "tax". It says "apografestai". Do you know what that means? Different translators use different English words to translate the same Greek words. Have you personally studied Greek? If not, you have to rely on translators' (like Strong's) knowledge of Greek. That's what concordances are for - they show how certain Greek and Hebrew words are translated into English.
---StrongAxe on 2/4/18


StrongAxe: One again, research, research, research. Learn HOW to use BibleGateway.//

Once again, I told you to 'copy and paste' your passage you claim has the word 'tax' instead of 'census'.

Of course I researched because that's how I KNOW the word 'tax' wasn't used but the word 'resister' is used.

Why don't you CITE the version that states 'tax'?

Because I seen 'register', 'enroll' or 'census'.

Which ALL means the same.

A method recording a count.

You can tax, but that DOESN'T give you a count of people.

I can have 7 people in my house but ONLY 3 people are taxable in my home.

That's why we have a census every 10 years in America.

Because census ISN'T taxation.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/4/18


My apologies Nicole. I thought the RCC had issues with The KJV, not because of the missing books, but more the translation not being from the RCC Latin translation.

But yes, TAX is used in the KJV. To see what the ORIGINAL GREEK word was before being translated into English is where a STRONGS Concordance comes in I find to be most useful. If the original word was not TAX, it would not be in there. But it is TAX. And it's not a new unheard of word.

Don't think of their TAX system like ours. Since most more than likely didn't own land( since Rome took over) nor did they have Walmart charging sales tax ....it more than likely was a TAX every Subject under the Roman Empire had to pay a tax.
---kathr4453 on 2/4/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: NO, no, no, no. Go to Bible Gateway AGAIN, you are dreaming and hoping the word 'Tax' is in the Passage. It isn't. I just looked. The word used was 'register'.

One again, research, research, research. Learn HOW to use BibleGateway.

Did you specify the version? Right after the phrase to search for is a dropdown for which bible version to use. If you select KJV, it says "tax". If you use other versions, some say "tax", some say "enroll", some say "register", some say "census", some say "list", etc.

KJV says EXACTLY what I quoted (except I added boldface myself).
---StrongAxe on 2/4/18


Kathr: we know how you hate the KJV,//

I never said I hated KJV. I said it was incomplete. I love the Scriptures. Just because the KJV is incomplete doesn't mean I hate the part you the KJV does have.

So if your child was missing a leg you would hate that child? Nonsenses

//but it's there plain as the nose on your face. And if you happen upon a STRONGS concordance, where the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek are given...it again is the word TAXED.//

If it was plain as the nose on my face I wouldn't need to use a STRONG concordance to TRY to make the word 'census' mean 'taxation'.

One means to drive money and the other means to count.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/4/18


StrongAxe: Bible Gateway : They say tax, enroll, register, census, list, etc. Romans conducted censuses for one reason - to apportion how much tax they were expected to collect.//

NO, no, no, no. Go to Bible Gateway AGAIN, you are dreaming and hoping the word 'Tax' is in the Passage.

It isn't. I just looked. The word used was 'register'.

The reason the Bible tells that information is the PROVE Jesus had proof of entering into history. That's all.

The Emperor just wanted to COUNT how many people he was ruling. Maybe LATER he might tax them, but NOT at that time.

The image on the coin was an attempt to claim items, but go to Genesis and note we are made in the Image of God.

So we belong to God.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/3/18


G583...Greek in STRONGS for TAXED.

Nicole, we know how you hate the KJV, but it's there plain as the nose on your face. And if you happen upon a STRONGS concordance, where the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek are given...it again is the word TAXED.

Taxes and Census were all done together. You listed your names, property etc.
---kathr4453 on 2/3/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU QUOTING? and That's why I said SHAME ON YOU!

For the second time: accuse less, and research more.

That is KJV, the most popular English Protestant translation. Look at the many English versions on BibleGateway. They say tax, enroll, register, census, list, etc. Romans conducted censuses for one reason - to apportion how much tax they were expected to collect.

BTW, IN Matthew 25:17 Jesus isn't talking!

Sorry. I meant Matthew 22, but the verses I quoted were correct.

For the third time, what do YOU think "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" means?
---StrongAxe on 2/3/18


StrongAxe: Accuse less, study more,//

You need to copy and paste and STOP adding to the Bible.

//like the Bereans.//

ISN'T IN THE BIBLE

//Luke 2:1 ... there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee ...5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife...//

WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU QUOTING?

The word 'tax' isn't in my Luke 1 nor is it in your Bible.

You replaced the word 'census' with the word 'tax'.

That's why I said SHAME ON YOU!

BTW, IN Matthew 25:17 Jesus isn't talking!

Again. I keep telling you to STOP putting words in Jesus' mouth.

I already told you.

Jesus NEVER told ANYONE to pay taxes.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/3/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Shame on you! The Bible ONLY states for the CENSUS!

Accuse less, study more, like the Bereans. Luke 2:
1 ... there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee ...
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife...

Jesus never said that!

Matthew 25:
17 ... Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
20 ... Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's...

For the second time, what do YOU think that means?
---StrongAxe on 2/2/18


StrongAxe: Joseph and Mary traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem because Caesar gave the order for a census to be taken so people could be TAXED.//

Shame on you! The Bible ONLY states for the CENSUS!

Besides. Jesus ISN'T BORN YET!

So. Jesus is responsible for His parent's behaviors? NONSENSE!

//Taxes must have been paid on Jesus's behalf when he was born.//

The Bible is clear.

Only a Sacrifice had to be made and the Romans had NOTHING to do with that!

You are making stuff up!

//The reason Jesus was asked "should we pay taxes?"//

Jesus never said that!

You made that up!

Stop putting words into Jesus' mouth
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/2/18


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Nicole no one rendered to Ceasar any TEMPLE TAX. Two entirely different issues.
---kathr4453 on 2/2/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Joseph and Mary traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem because Caesar gave the order for a census to be taken so people could be TAXED. Taxes must have been paid on Jesus's behalf when he was born.

The reason Jesus was asked "should we pay taxes?" was because Rome demanded it. If Jesus had not paid, he would not have been arrested on trumped up charges made up by the Pharisees - he would have been arrested by the Romans for tax evasion, and Pilate could not say "I find no fault with this man".

He held up Caesar's coin, and said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"! How much more plain do you need it to get?! What of Caesar's do YOU think he commanded us to render?
---StrongAxe on 2/1/18


Kathr, Jesus said in Matt 17:26..."Then the children are exempt,"

Luke 8:3 These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

Jesus only ONCE paid the Temple tax and not from His past carpentry job either.

It came from a fish as the Gospel states.

Temple tax is only for the up keep of the Temple. Not a resident tax or property tax. Thus it's title

Note, Jesus didn't FORCE anyone to give any fish or loaves to Him.

Jesus knew people had food but refused to share. He still allowed them to eat from the plenty
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/2/18


You know Nicole, Peter and all the Apostles during their time with Jesus didn't work their jobs....the spent that time traveling with Jesus and learning at His feet. Jesus knew this, and PROVIDED for the Tax. And not only for Peter, but Jesus said to pay for He as well. Probably because Jesus set aside His Carpentry business as well. However I'm sure that tax was for PROPERTY TAX, or just a tax because they were residents there.

Isn't it wonderful Nicole that JESUS PROVIDED ...just like He did feeding the thousands with only a hand full of fish and a few loaves of bread when people came to hear him preach, and had traveled some distance. Was it a SIn they didn't bring their own picnic baskets? Does a miracle disqualify? NO dear.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


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I also showed the verse where Jesus had Peter pay tax for he and Jesus. If it were a SIN, then Jesus would not have risen from the dead. It took a spotless SINLESS sacrifice...so if Jesus sinned by paying taxes, you are still and forever in your sin, and no hope of salvation EVER.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


StrongAxe, as you yourself admitted Jedus took the coin not gave a coin.

It wasn't His from His income.

Jesus Christ NEVER paid into the Roman tax system as you and Kathr keep alluding to on CN.

In fact He didn't even pay the Temple tax which made the Pharisees angry and they complained to Peter.

After Jesus complained and said it was WRONG to even PAY the Temple Tax (forget the Roman taxes) He told Peter where to find a coin from a fish to pay the Temple tax ONLY. Jesus still didn't pay for His own income. He got it from a fish.

Even He KNOWS taxes are nonsense.

So according to BIBLE Jesus is on MY side on the taxes issue.

He NEVER commanded us to pay taxes. That's wishful thinking.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/1/18


Nicole_Lacey:

I am not aware of any private Catholic sewer system. Sewer systems were not build by religious churches. They were built by secular civil governments. It's not a matter of Catholics building them and Protestants helping. It's about citizens building them, regardless of religion.

Jesus took a Roman coin, and said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

He COMMANDED US to do so. If paying the tax was wrong, would he command us to do it while refusing to do it himself? That would make him as big a hypocrite as the Pharisees that he called hypocrites in that very passage. In Romans 13, Paul also commands us to obey earthly authorities.
---StrongAxe on 2/1/18


What sewer systems Nicole? What are you talking about? Who is WE...as in WE ALLOW everyone to use the sewer systems? The Catholic Church is who ALLOWS everyone to use the sewer systems, and because of that Protestants should help????

Are you still in the Twilight Zone Nicole.

The sewer systems around the country are built by all religions, nationalities and races, and TODAY are used by all religions nationalities and races...even athiests.

If the Catholic Church controlled the sewer systems, including public toilets then WHY were blacks discriminated against by the Catholic Church???? AWWWWWHHHH....NOW you will admit the Catholic Church did not have control...right? Now you will blame those darn Protestants.....HAHA
---kathr4453 on 2/1/18


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StroneAxe, we allow everyone to use the sewer systems. But we didn't build them FAST enough for Kathr. So I asked WHY couldn't Protestants help. Why wait for us to build everything?

//Roman taxes were MUCH worse, yet Jesus still said to pay them.//

INCORRECT! JESUS NEVER PAID TAXES TO THE ROMANS! NEVER.

Read Mark 12 again. They handed Him a coin and He handed back to them. It never came from Jesus' clothing.

Plus, He said give to Caesar what is His and to God what is His. Which means coins to him, but our whole body to God because we have God' image.

Jesus only paid the Temple Tax which isn't Roman. Even Jesus complained about paying that tax as well.

Just like me. It's wrong, but I pay it.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/31/18


Nicole, yea, I can't understand why you keep attacking Protestants ....as if the sewer system belongs and was built by the Catholic Church.

I hate to make a. TRUE statement here, but in Ireland...those sewers that babies were flushed down by Nuns ...800 poor souls, flushed into a CATHOLIC OPERATED SEPTIC TANK .....is not something to brag about Nicole. Thank God in heaven the Catholic Church did not build any sewer system or have control of it in NYC .

Stop making rediculous comments Nocole ....and I will stop pointing out the horrible truth of Catholic Controlled wash houses that were prisons etc.
---kathr4453 on 1/29/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: AGAIN, CAN'T PROTESTANTS CLEAN THEIR OWN MESSES?

Is there some private Catholic sewer system in NYC that I'm not aware of?

we STILL have slums in NY and all over California with the HIGHEST TAXES in the Nation.

Whether taxes are used effectively has nothing to do with whether they should be collected, or whether we should pay them. Roman taxes were MUCH worse, yet Jesus still said to pay them.

But if you like non-sequiturs, here's another one: Why, over three months after the hurricane hit, is 1/3 of Puerto Rico still without power? Taxation of NY and CA have nothing to do with you, so you should have no stake in what happens there, but PR should. What's the excuse now?
---StrongAxe on 1/29/18


christ said 'render to ceasar what is ceasar's'. clear as day that we should pay taxes. yeah right the rich should give tax cuts. how hypocritical that the 'right' complains about hand out but they are given tax cuts. the trickle down economy that the GOP claims to work only increase deficits.
---mike on 1/29/18


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Nicole people didn't leave England because of taxes, but FREEDOM OF RELIGION. WE kicked England out od the USA because they taxed without representation.

2) the sewer systems in NYC before 1913 were not kept and paid for by any Church. Nor was it FREE.
---kathr4453 on 1/29/18


Kathr: No taxes until 1913? So the Boston Tea Party thing and the issue of paying taxes without representation was NOT an issue that caused the Revolutionary war?//

UNDER King George III rule. THAT'S WE LEFT England

//or are you saying the sewer systems in NYC slums didn't come Into affect until 1913//

We had sewer systems BEFORE 1913

//..it was because of the filth and disease and rats etc that taxes were collected in order to pay for it...Also garbage in the streets as well. No nuns were sweeping the streets before taxes? PROVE IT!//

AGAIN, CAN'T PROTESTANTS CLEAN THEIR OWN MESSES?

BTW, we STILL have slums in NY and all over California with the HIGHEST TAXES in the Nation.

WHAT'S the excuse now?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/29/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Yes, but depend on him for WHAT? Clearly not everything. We are supposed to be responsible for some things ourselves. Jesus told us that when he comes, he should find us busy at our work, not sitting on a mountaintop chanting and waiting for him, as some cults do. Paul said anyone who was not willing to work should not eat.

There's an old Chinese proverb - man wait long time with open mouth for roast duck to fly in. God may provide a duck, but YOU have to pluck, roast, and chew it. God does things that are plainly beyond our means, but also gives us the means to do other things for ourselves.

Similarly, some things are the responsibility of the church, but others (e.g. building roads) clearly are not.
---StrongAxe on 1/28/18


No taxes until 1913? So the Boston Tea Party thing and the issue of paying taxes without representation was NOT an issue that caused the Revolutionary war? So you say the RCC paid for the sewer systems etc. or are you saying the sewer systems in NYC slums didn't come Into affect until 1913 or there abouts and it was because of the filth and disease and rats etc that taxes were collected in order to pay for it. OK SO WHERE WAS THE RCC THEN NICOLE? Also garbage in the streets as well. No nuns were sweeping the streets before taxes? PROVE IT!

I don't live in Matthew but I still don't see anything about any Synagogue being responsible for these issues. It seems that is why Rome collected taxes. No Jews were doing it for free.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/18


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Nicole_Lacey: "...HE established ONLY THE CHURCH!"

God established government and nations. Jesus established the church. Even Moses was told to form a "government." Who takes presedence, God or Jesus?


As for taxes:

The tax code is unjust and very complicated. An investigative reporter sent out 30 tax forms a few years ago to be reviewed each having the exact information (a family of four, same wages, etc), ten to IRS agents, ten to accountants and ten to tax preparers. All 30 came back widely different.
---Steveng on 1/28/18


Kathr: Our lives depend on proper sanitation, police protections and law keeping, public services that we all NEED.?/

Permanently income tax didn't occur until 1913

So waited for law and order until AFTER 1913?

//The Churchs regardless of what faith are not responsible or the answer for these services.//

WHAT? Read Matthew again.

//And even if it was...someone would have to PAY for these services//

NOT PAY, DONATE!

Are you paying your Church every week?

//God did NOT establish the CHURCH for THESE KIND OF social services.//

YES HE DID! HE never told us to depend on somone else but Him

//He established Governments for that,//

Nooooo, HE established ONLY THE CHURCH!
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/28/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Jesus told us to do the OPPOSITE of Roman living. Read Matthew chapters 1 to 7.

Where? Matthew 1-3 was about Jesus's early years. 4 about early ministry. 5-7 about the Sermon on the Mount. NONE of these were about "Roman living."

Jesus SPECIFICALLY said "Render unto Caesar" to pay taxes, and "go the extra mile", i.e. obey commands by Roman soldiers demanding service, and give them twice what they ask.

Right, as long as you can find loop holes and deductions to pay as little as possible.

It's the rich 1% who have access to off-shore tax shelters and other loopholes that the rest of us 99% don't have access to.
---StrongAxe on 1/28/18


Nicole, WE ALL PAY TAXES. If owning a home is included in the 93% YES we also pay PROPERTY TAX too. You claim only the RICH own houses? Wrong. Unfortunately I have seen even the poor lose their homes because property taxes go up, because the states and all of us have to make up for Government WALLSTREET BAILOUTS etc, and now these new lowered taxes on Corporations the average lower and middle class will have to be fleeced to make up for this lost revenue.

All that will now Increase because of this new Tax deal that passed. GA is just now figuring out our losses and how it will affect our state.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/18


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Nicole, you're making no sense. Our lives depend on proper sanitation, police protections and law keeping, public services that we all NEED. The Churchs regardless of what faith are not responsible or the answer for these services. And even if it was...someone would have to PAY for these services...so even the churches would have to collect money....from people to pay for these services including TRUCKS , BUSSES, EARTH MOVERS ETC. God did NOT establish the CHURCH for THESE KIND OF social services. He established Governments for that, and the Church is to preach the Gospel, not arrest speeders on the interstate.

Why do you even continue such rediculous thoughts. The DARK AGES are over Nicole. But even then the RCC fleeced the poor.
---kathr4453 on 1/27/18


StrongAxe: No, I asked about your statement obeying our leaders, NOT ONLY when they are just.

Jesus told us to do the OPPOSITE of Roman living. Read Matthew chapters 1 to 7.

Kathr, can Protestants do anything or do we Catholics have to do everything?

Already you'll NOT HAPPY that the rich are ONLY paying 93% of ALL taxes COLLECTED.

//I don't mind paying taxes at all.//

Right, as long as you can find loop holes and deductions to pay as little as possible.

//most folks who lived off the system, but now have jobs don't mind paying taxes. Only freeloaders who now have to work for a living do. ---kathr4453//

Are these not the same people?

Please explain how they are different types of people
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/27/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Give chapter and verse to obey unjust laws.

I've already demonstrated that Rome conquered all countries in the western world, then taxed them at the point of a sword, then used that tax money to fund pagan temples, and more armies to conquer and enslave more countries. Do you think that's just?! Of course not - YET despite all this, Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25). He did NOT say we have the freedom to withold unjust taxes.

In Matthew 23:3, he tells people to obey what the Pharisees say (but don't follow what they do).

(Also, Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth", despite RCC priesthood.)
---StrongAxe on 1/26/18


So are Nuns also going to freely pave roads and fix potholes, put your house fire out or those fires in CA? Are we going to have POPEMOBILE TRANSIT SYSTEMS? Really Nicole, Catholic controlled libraries and parks? Will the Inquisition replace the justice system ...and a Pope , cardinals etc instead of our President senate congress etc our taxes also pay for? Are you NUTS????

I don't mind paying taxes at all.

Also, most folks who lived off the system, but now have jobs don't mind paying taxes. Only freeloaders who now have to work for a living do.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/18


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Nicole, I believe in the separation of Church and State, therefore do not find free CATHOLIC SCHOOLS an answer to a tax free school system. And Nicole ....I know many who send their kids to Catholic School and it's NOT FREE. And those not Catholic don't want their children to be endoctrinated by the Catholic Church....and its against the Constitution to force non Catholics into a Catholic school free or not.

So your answer was no help.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/18


Kathr: if there were no taxes today, Nicole would not have gotten a free college education at tax payers expense.//

CORRECT! Heard this saying 'nothing is free'.

I should have gotten student loans. More Money in my pockets without the tax system.

//Also all schools would be private where only the rich could attend,//

No, ever heard of NUNS? They have been teaching poor kids

//One way or another...YOU'RE GOING TO PAY.//

Not in Catholic circles. We take of each other and non-Catholics.

StrongAxe: We are told to obey our leaders, not only obey them when they are just.//

Give chapter and verse to obey unjust laws.

How do you think Moses lived?

Obeying unjust leaders and laws?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/26/18


27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up, and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Even Jesus paid taxes. Well I guess if there were no taxes today, Nicole would not have gotten a free college education at tax payers expense. Also all schools would be private where only the rich could attend, tolls would be on every road to pay the private owners. House on fire?.... How much can you pay privately owned fire dept. private police....pay daily for safety...

One way or another...YOU'RE GOING TO PAY.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Whether taxes are unjust is irrelevant. We are told to obey our leaders, not only obey them when they are just. Jesus said "render unto Caesar what" but did not add "only when Caesar is just". The Roman Empire was much more corrupt than most governments today. Taxation funded heathen temples and armies that invaded most of the known world and enslaved its peoples. Despite this, Jesus said "render unto Caesar".

People who say their conscience forbids them to pay taxes because those taxes are used for evil purposes go directly against what Jesus told them to do.

Rome did not pay tax collectors. They earned a living by charging extra. I.e. they were all extortionists and thieves.
---StrongAxe on 1/25/18


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Cluny, nowhere are in the verses I gave above.

Kathr, Jesus said the Temple Tax were not for the Jews.
Matthew 17:24-27
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/25/18


The Jews hated the Tax collectors. Some today still do.
You are right Cluny we are to pay our taxes.

agape
---Samuelbb7 on 1/25/18


Nowhere in the Bible are tax collectors called sinners. They were viewed with scorn in the NT as collaborators with the Romans.

Even the Temple had its tax collectors.

But Jesus said to render to Caesar that which was his.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/25/18


The OT Tithe was like a tax. It supported the Priesthood, who did not own land to earn a living like the other tribes. Also when Joseph was in Egypt, that too was like paying taxes, that at the end of those years of famine and even during, it provided for all the people.

I absolutely believe we should support our community fireman , police, parks,roads, etc. why BECAUSE WE ALL USE THEM AND NEED THEM.

I see my taxes going to awesome things in my county...we have the most fabulous Parks in all of the state of GA. My roads are so well kept, and if my taxes are somewhat higher, so be it....

Now if I saw none of the above, then I would ask for accountability from my county commissioners as to where my taxes are going.
---kathr4453 on 1/25/18


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//BTW, Jesus did not call tax collectors sinners, the Pharisees did.---Mark_Eaton on 1/24/18

Jesus agreed with them because He said only the sick need a Physician after they called them sinners.

BTW, Jesus never allowed anyone to be with Him and continue to be a Tax Collector.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/25/18


Many people on CN claim it is fair and good for people to pay taxes and we should even pay MORE...
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/23/18

I pay taxes because it the law, and I have been instructed by the Bible that it is God's will for me to honor those in authority above me (1 Pet. 2:13), including State and Federal governments.

As to if the taxes are unjust, I think taxes on wages is unjust. Wages are the due compensation for labor. Income is not wages, but the profit from the exchange of an item or service. Income should be taxed and wages should not be.

BTW, Jesus did not call tax collectors sinners, the Pharisees did.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/24/18


"Many people on CN claim it is fair and good for people to pay taxes and we should even pay MORE." In my view income taxes are necessary for a variety of reasons and an equal percentage of ten percent should be paid by all based on income. Example one who makes $500 a mouth pays $50 per mouth in taxes. And by the same token one who makes $50 million per mouth pays $5 million and so on. With no refunds and the social benefits of government offered base on income up to what the government establishes as the poverty line.
"Doesn't the Bible suggest taxes are unjust?" No. Jesus said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" The unfairness, biblically, was in collecting more than what was due.
---josef on 1/24/18


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