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Virtual Reality Churches.

What are you thoughts about the rise of virtual reality churches?

Moderator - Do you mean virtual churches or virtual reality churches?

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 ---Steveng on 2/5/18
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Genesis 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham, for a father of many nations have I made thee.

This verse ( hopefully Nicole won't mangle) is God speaking to Abraham, and in no way is a TITLE nor is it something any common Catholic priest or ANYONE can claim for themselves.

This has to do again with the Abrahamic Covenant..."that in thee will all Nations of the earth will be blessed." Galatians also explains. But to use this as some EXCUSE for a Catholic priest to call themself FATHER this or almost blasphemous.
---kath4454 on 3/12/18

Kathr: Paul, NEVER asked anyone to call him Father,//

Excuse me, he didn't TELL to us call him FATHER, but he BROKE Jesus so call RULE having people calling another father.

So he TOLD the Corinthians he was their father INSTEAD God being their FATHER?

How is that NOT worse?

//If you look in 1 John, you will see three categories of MATURITY, 1) childen....Or maybe we should call you Child Nicole...//

AMEN! A little child

Matthew 18:3-4 or Mark 10:15

//Abraham IS considered the Father of the faith....but again is NOT some TITLE like you all do with it....,//

How is Abraham DIFFERENT from calling your dad 'father'?

Abraham is a title. Unless you think he really is your daddy?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/12/18

Nicole, Jesus said "I have many more things to tell you. " Jesus had more to reveal, AFTER His death and resurrection, and the Gospel according to the Mystery is one of them. AND THE TRUE MEANING and application of CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY was another....and Another, the ONE NEW MAN is neither Jew or Gentile, and so much more. And these truths were also revealed to Paul as well as the other Apostles ( some say only Paul ...wrong.

I believe that Paul, (because of his background and study of the OT) God used, because the MYSTERY although hidden in the OT, was still there, but hidden...and now revealed.( by the HOLY SPIRIT) It's ALL the WORD OF GOD where THE CHURCH IS built upon the Apostles and Prophets.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/18

Nicole, You embarrassed yourself. I quote scripture word for word , and WALLA, your crazy imagination sees Paul as the Holy Spirit. I never said Paul was the Holy Spirit...where did you get that? OH I's that cognitive thing again you have problems with. I pray the Lord will heal your mind, or maybe it's those pain killers, who knows. But again, you scramble up nonsense and falsely accuse someone of saying something never said. Is this a CATHOLIC thing? A silly game you, Monk and Cluny all play for squirts and giggles? Or are you all one person here taking on different MO's ...but all have the EXACT same mental disorder? And quick to answer for one another. What is it? I think people should pay closer attention to this...
---kathr453 on 3/12/18

Nicole, Paul, NEVER asked anyone to call him Father, or even signed any letters ending with Father Paul...or did we ever see a Father Peter.

If you look in 1 John, you will see three categories of MATURITY, 1) children, 2) young men, 3) fathers.....but it has nothing to do with taking ANY OF THOSE ON AS A TITLE. Or maybe we should call you Child Nicole...

And Abraham IS considered the Father of the faith....but again is NOT some TITLE like you all do with it....,

The difference between ( one anyway) is that Protestants do not have a hierarchy like you all with Pope, Cardinal, etc, etc.... so that's why we say Brother, Sister...etc... As Christ alone is our HEAD and our ONLY FATHER is our HEAVENLY FATHER.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/18

Kathr: So it appears that Jesus told the Apostles He had 'MORE things to say to most probably was what Paul well as the even Peter and the others AFTER Jesus ascended.//


Paul isn't the Holy Spirit!

John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. --kath4454 on 3/11/18//

Are you claiming Paul is the Holy Spirit?

Stop making excuses.

Please you are embarrassing yourself.

Jesus is God and Paul is not.

---Nicole_Lacey on 3/11/18

Kathr: And calling your pastors FATHER....totally a NO NO that is clearly stated in the 4 Gospels you openly and proudly it's really hard pinning down your SUPREME when you don't even obey your SUPREME.//

So, Paul is WRONG when TOLD the community to call him father???

1 Cor. 4:15

Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel

So Jesus was WRONG when HE called Abraham a father???

John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day, he saw it and was glad.

The Gospels are Supreme!
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/11/18

Are you stating there are words of Pauls against Jesus? If so ..PROVE IT. IF you can't PROVE IT, then you are creating a straw man to support your non existent THEORY on to make a non-argument.....putting foolishness only in YOUR MOUTH.

I can't believe the nonsense you will go to to chase your own tail in circles Nicole. And you THINK I am running in circles to keep up with your foolish nonsense?

Show where Paul contradicted Jesus FIRST, before anyone takes your silliness seriously?
---kathr4453 on 3/11/18

So it appears that Jeus told the Apostles He had 'MORE things to say to most probably was what Paul well as the even Peter and the others AFTER Jesus ascended.

John 16: 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:

and he will shew you things to come.
---kath4454 on 3/11/18

Kathr: so you feel anything outside the 4 Gospels...Matt, Mark, Luke and John....are secondary...second hand kinda like passed around gossip.//

Don't put words in my mouth.

I said you LOSE if you debate me with words from Paul's against WORDS from Jesus' Mouth.

Are you saying Paul's words are GREATER than Jesus' WORDS?

Tell me, yes or no?

//..not to be taken all that seriously?//

WHO SAID THAT? You are the one claiming Paul's words are equal or greater than Jesus NOT ME.

//Don't lecture me Nicole, you have issues YOU need to work on.//

That's what happens when you think you do not have to listen to the Fathers of the Church.

You believe Paul's words are greater than Jesus' Words.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/11/18

Nicole, so you feel anything outside the 4 Gospels...Matthew, Mark, Luke and John....are secondary...second hand kinda like passed around gossip...not to be taken all that seriously? So all this OT Livite Priesthood stuff you all try to use as a MOCK Church, PATTERNED AFTER THE OLD COVENANT TO ISRAEL......where is that actually thoroughly taught in the Gospels. Do you all cut off your hands and poke out your eyes To enter in?

And calling your pastors FATHER....totally a NO NO that is clearly stated in the 4 Gospels you openly and proudly it's really hard pinning down your SUPREME when you don't even obey your SUPREME.

Don't lecture me Nicole, you have issues YOU need to work on.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/18

Kathr: Just wondering why you don't believe Pauls very SIMPLE WORDS.//

I believe Paul's words. I just DON'T believe WHAT you claim to be his words.

As I said before it always seems if you can't DEFEND your belief or thought in the Gospels you RUN OUTSIDE the Gospels to disclaim the Gospels.

Paul NEVER goes against the Gospels.


//All of this is in scripture.--kathr4453 on 3/10/18

Not so fast.

In other words, if I give you a verse from the Gospel and you can't provide me a verse from the Gospel to counter my verse you lost the debate.

Don't TRY to debate the Gospels with Passages outside the Gospels.

---Nicole_Lacey on 3/10/18

Just wondering why you don't believe Pauls very SIMPLE WORDS. THERE IS NOTHING HARD ABOUT WHAT HE SAID. It doesn't take a guru to explain....

One day we THE CHURCH as the Body of Christ, will be judging the world and the Angels. I believe Angels here mean the fallen ones. The world here means those lost. Because as those IN Christ, being raised up with Him and seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST we are actually in a position ( will fully realize this reality when we have been changed in the twinkling of an eye) in a position ABOVE THE ANGELS. This TOO is part of the being GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST.

All of this is in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/18

Kathr, Peace means You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

We are not changing each others minds.

I believe you are not understanding Scripture correctly and you believe the SAME for me.

I tried several times to explain the Scriptures to you as you did to me.

I said PEACE to you.

Can you be at PEACE with me?

I don't know what else you want from me?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/10/18

I wasn't aware you had to understand MY understanding of fallen angels or anything to believe scripture. I think what you are saying is NOW that YOU understand the verses pointed out to you... Now you have no problem believing it...correct?

Nicole, just believe scripture. Don't say you believe because NOW you understand what I believe.

But should we all have to go through so much agony to defend our beliefs to you , because YOUR MIND adds things never stated in the first place, also posting the same scripture over and over and over before you stop arguing with them?

Next time instead of saying OMIT. someone else's post...just say.....I,DONT UNDERSTAND....WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. OK?
---kathr4453 on 3/7/18

Well, I least now I understand your understanding of Fallen Angels.

---Nicole_Lacey on 3/6/18

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Nicole, I said exactly what scripture said... in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3. Why do you have such a hard time understanding what is posted, and then when you see what scripture actually says and doesn't MANIPULATE till the cows come home to say what YOU want it to say...because you just can't accept that YOU don't know everything, and should have said.."WOW..I DIDNT KNOW THAT WAS IN 1 Cor 6:2-3. I will research it. I told you where you could...but you just want to keep arguing like you have with StrongAxe because you have a PRIDE issue.

I said I BELIEVE 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

Now go back and read where you said the angles have already been judged...NO THEY HAVE NOT. They are waiting for JUDGEMENT.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/18

No Nicole, YOU seem to forget what YOU said...that God already judged the Angels. WRONG! They are held in chains ( some anyway) UNTIL JUDGEMENT.

Please don't change the subject to wiggle out of your comment.

Just as those from day one ( who have died) are NOT with the Lord in Heaven now, See Hebrews 12, those LOST are also waiting for the final judgement...called the second death.

Even though Angels don't die...they will have to answer for their rebellion and THEN will be thrown forever in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the FINAL Judgement.
---kath4454 on 3/6/18

Kathr, you seem to forget what the discussing is about. I said that we are not deciding if Angels are going to hell or not.

ONLY God can condemn Angels and Men to Hell.

NOT you or me.

If you are in agreement, Peace.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/6/18

1 Corinthians 6:23
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

WOW, not only the world but Angels.

The Church will have a position ABOVE the the BOC. This also is part of THE MYSTERY.

So before scoffing, you may want to research these verses. Try " Got Questions" this is NOT something I just made up.

Nicole, please research verses before showing your ignorance..not for my sake, but for yours.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/18

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2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to HELL, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment,

The final Judgment ISN'T changing their destiny
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/5/18

I never said it will change their destiny...however I highlighted where they are held FOR judgement.

Paul said we will be there at that judgement and we will be judging them. I just believe it Nicole...I don't have to understand it to believe it...or argue against it.

It says what it says.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/18

Kathr, I already did. Do you think you have the power to judge someone to hell?

It seems that what you think Paul is telling you.

God already kicked the Angels out of Heaven. But you seem to believe God is waiting for OUR approval BEFORE He casts the Fallen Angels into Hell.

Jesus is greater than Paul

Matt 25:41
Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Peter agrees only God can cast to hell

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to HELL, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment,

The final Judgment ISN'T changing their destiny
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/5/18

Nicole, is that just your opinion, and you say you don't believe the scripture posted? So tell us, exactly how do you read scripture? You just add what is not there in some places, and totally scoff at other verses that are there? So it's all according to YOUR understanding?
---kathr4453 on 3/4/18

Kathr: Paul tells us WE the BOC will judge the Angels.//

We are not God. Are you claiming Paul is suggesting we have the power to judge angels and each other to cast to Hell?

It like judging in a small sense of making judgement of right or wrong. As on earth with our court trials. But, NOT making a judgement of casting anyone to HELL.

That has ALREADY be determined by God when He had them kicked out of Heaven.

Where do you think the fallen Angels are going after they been kicked out of Heaven?

They can't go back to Heaven.

Do you think there is a possibility we have the power to overturn God's sentence?

The fallen Angels are doomed to Hell no matter what we say.

God is God and we are not.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/3/18

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Nicole, Paul tells us WE the BOC will judge the Angels. We won't be judging the good ones either.

Hell was originally made for the Angels, yet no one not even the angles have been thrown into the Lae of Fire yet have they? So they are still roaming around....doing their evil deeds and will continue to do so until the Great White Throne Judgement that also include the judgement of the fallen Angels. Yes some are chained up until that day...but the worst is yet to come.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/18

1 Corinthians 6:3

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Again some don't know scripture. And Nicole, please don't correct UNLESS you have scripture to support your comments.

We will not be judging the GOOD Angels they don't need to be judged. They never fell. Now man is different...we all fell when Adam fell, and we will either be at the Judgement seat of Christ or the Great White Throne...

Those IN CHRIST will be at the Jusgement seat of Christ for rewards....and will NOT be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. However we will be there to JUDGE ...and it appears we will be judging the fallen angels.
---kath4454 on 3/2/18

Correction on a statement made below.

Fallen Angels will not be judged.

They have been already judged.

That's why we call them 'fallen' They fell from Heaven. Kicked out.

God judged them in Heaven and removed them from Heaven.

We will be judged to see if we can go to Heaven or not.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/2/18

Cluny said, "Therefore a vr church is NO CHURCH AT ALL!"

Bravo! and Amen!!!!!
---Monk_Brendan on 3/2/18

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Therefore a vr church is NO CHURCH AT ALL!
---Cluny on 3/1/18

Welcome back Cluny!

I pray that you are on the mend and that God as our constant companion keeps things interesting during the boring times of inactivity.

We were given an update by StrongAxe and it sounds like you had quite a fall.

We are glad to see you back here but please, take your time, heal properly, and do what your doctors tell you to do!
---Mark_Eaton on 3/2/18

Everyone will have "due process" as PROMISED, a Judgement day. Even criminals are given a trial. It doesn't mean they will get off if guilty. It just means in all fairness they will be tried...even the fallen angels will be judged...and we KNOW there is NO HOPE for them.

Also the falling away is just as it was in the time of Noah. The population scoffed did they didn't say, they were believers who fell away. It's getting like that again. Too many false teachers taking over.
But you really must read Hebrews 7:22 ....that Jesus is our SURETY , meaning He takes 100% responsibility for those who belong to Him. FAITH IS BELIEVING GODS WORD.You won't be able to work your way out of that one.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/18

Steveng, the Gospel,according to the MYSTERY, Romans 16:25-27 and Colossians 1:24-27 reveal a different gospel. Also iread the beginning of Galatians to see others brought in ANOTHER GOSPEL, when Paul was trying to establish the Gospel according to the Mystery.

There is also the Gospel of the Kingdom....and that is addressed to Earthly Israel, that will Come into play AFTER the Church is formed and translated out. THEN THAT Gospel will be preached which is the 1000 year reign with Jesus HERE on a throne reigning and ruling...and it will be HARSH. He will rule with a rod of IRON. This is NOT heaven. Those Kingdom laws you see in Matthew.....pluck out your eye...cut off your hand....that's NOT our Gospel of GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/18

Can a vr church baptize?
Can it celebrate Communion?
Can it bury the dead?


Therefore a vr church is NO CHURCH AT ALL!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/18

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Steveng, there is many passages about many backsliding. But those do not belong to Jesus Christ. Those are not born again of the Spirit. There is a big difference in one who goes to church, hears the Word of God, and those who truly come to Christ and are born again of the Spirit. You cannot be on top of the fence. If you did come to Christ, you come by the power of God. Not by your own strength.
Those that come over by the power of God are sustain forever by the power of Almighty God. When Jesus says, "I will never leave you" that means no matter what you do, Jesus never leaves you. Now that is security. Not ADT security, but God security.
---Luke on 3/1/18

OSAS: There are many warnings about backsliding and falling away from the faith both in the OT and NT. One end time prophesy tells of the great falling away from the faith. One must have faith to begin with in order to fall away.

Works: "...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." Revelation 20

Gospel: The one and only gospel is the coming Kingdom of God. That's what Jesus and the apostles taught. They also taught how to get there.
---Steveng on 2/28/18

Well Luke, there are many scriptures that back up OSAS, not just ONE. And because there ARE many scriptures...I don't know what your problem is. I just happen to know OTHER scripture you may not know. Just add it to the list..rather than trying to,make an argument against.

You said I don't believe in OSAS.... That is a LIE, showing YOU don't know what you're talking about.

Gods promises are also grounded in His Covenant...and Jesus is OUR SURITY in His Covenant. So YES I actually DO know what I'm talking about.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/18

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-8) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is not a handbook of good works....the Gospel is the Gospel OF our Lord Jesus Christ.

To tell folks that this verse is not important and can be tossed aside ....well, May actually be describing those in the above verse.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/18

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Kathr, you do talk alot and put down many passages, what you forget that many can do the same as you do. That does not mean you know what you are talking about when it come to doctrine.
Anyone who is born of the Spirit never die again. None period. 2 Tim. tells us that by the power of God "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but now being revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"
---Luke on 2/28/18

Those In the first resurrection rise because of FAITH, in the promised redeemer. Hebrews 11 lists many and records their FAITH, starting from Abel ....

I see no list of anyone being championed for works.

Jesus IS THAT LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. And when Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN, all those from the OT are NOW said to be THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT Hebrews 12. They were Justified by faith in the OT as we see Abrahams example, while on earth, and after they died went to paradise or Abraham's bosom, and once Jesus died and rose again , their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead, in heaven now as we speak.

So show the GROUP of the good works only. They are not there.

There is no other GROUP in Hebrews 12
---kathr4453 on 2/28/18

Right from the beginning of Genesis we see God DOES NOT ACCEPT WORKS. Cain offering represented WORKS...and God rejected. The massage from God is very clear...ONLY FAITH.. No works without faith, and no faith without works as evidenced by our faith. Even under the Law, we see Hebrews 11 show they still lived by faith. It was originally stated in the OT....THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. THE JUST do not become JUST by works.

So according to scripture YES WE DO KNOW. God has made it very clear.
---kath4453 on 2/28/18

kathr4454 wrote: "But will also state no one is going to heaven based on good works alone."

That's for God to decide. They won't go to heaven, but they will populate the earth. Revelation 20.

Blessed are those that rise in the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 2/27/18

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Steveng, I'm not the one who originally posted you believe in Universalism, and I did not see you deny it. I was actually surprised by that, but waited for your denial or whatever and you never denied it.

If that was a lie, then I do apologize .
You should have clarified it then. If you did...then I missed it. Sorry.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/18

Steveng, I went back and researched and found that John is using the word Universalism incorrectly. Coming from a Calvinist, he uses is against those who believe in whosoever will, as a universal call to all men.

However the CORRECT definition of Universalism means that in the end all man will be saved...

Again I sincerely apologize for this misunderstanding.

But will also state no one is going to heaven based on good works alone.
---kathr4454 on 2/27/18

kathr4453 wrote: "And I would again challenge you [Steveng] on your universalism beliefs..."

You blame others for untruths, but yourself. Knowing human behavior, people will read your post and think, "Oh, Steveng has universalism beliefs." Remember the 9th commandment.
---Steveng on 2/26/18

Yes Steveng, we see Luke, AKA MarkV, or originally Lisa stating an untruth that I DONT believe in OSAS. And it's funny you said something about wrongly LABELING others.

There is this AWFUL labeling that ONLY Calvinists believe in OSAS, and therefore if your not a Calvinist. then you MUST be that OTHER who believes you can lose your salvation.

What Luke fails to see is BOTH Calvin and Arminian or whatever ARE WRONG. There is a THIRD...

Hebrews states Jesus is the SURITY of our salvation. IF you UNDERSTOOD that word you would understand OSAS....based NOT ON CALVINISM, but on PROMISE.

And with that one can believe in OSAS and FREE WILL.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/18

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It seems many people here on this site spread untruths and rumors. They seem to wrongly tag someone's beliefs. Remember the 9th commandment.

Another issue is when a person uses such words as "may," "probably," "should've," etc. It shows that a person isn't sure about what they are talking about. Imagine God using such words when instructing his people.
---Steveng on 2/25/18

Steveng, we just may see in our lifetime ( maybe you don't believe in, but I do) the Beast, also some call the anti-Christ with the false prophet along with Mystery Babylon ...who is counterfeit Christianity being able to deceive the whole world so scripture states.....and I do wonder with all this modern technology and Virtual reality stuff and even how much more advanced in creating a counterfeit reality that causes people...the whole world (except a remnant) to fall for .

And I would again challenge you on your universalism beliefs...because scripture states those who do take the mark will in fact be thrown into the Lake of fire. That's the second death....and there's no scripture that promises a third LIFE out of the second death.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/18

John, I know the comment well, and I know it was taken out of context. That does not make me someone who was pro slavery.

When discussing this what you plan to do...change the subject to something not even the subject to attack.

Again, this is not how one's how CULTS attack.

Now that I know for sure you are CULT LIKE in your behavior, John, I want NOTHING ever to do with you.

OH? where's the baby killer one?. Couldn't find that could you since I am against Abortions. Also Slavery was wrong...however it was LEGAL in this country. And Not all who owned slaves abused them........I still,stand by that.....
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18

Oh my gossip girl just happened To drop in. LOL?

I'll tell you both what I told Mark_Eaton. I don't give one IOTA about your catty juvenile comments, ....but I will wear them as a badge of honor.

John needs the praise of man, and so does Lisa, MarkV Luke....Calvinists THRIVE on being praised by men and in admiration of men. If they didn't they wouldn't be so thinned skinned.

John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---kath453 on 2/23/18

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"Once saved, always saved" is not biblical.

There are many warnings throughout the entire bible, in both the OT and NT, about falling away and turning back to the world. In fact, one end time prophesy states that in the end days many shall fall away from the faith. One must have faith to begin with in order to fall away, eh?
---Steveng on 2/24/18

John, you and Mark are correct when it comes to Kathr. She does have a way with words. She has not changed at all, all this years. Sometimes when she answers she believes she is the only one who knows all Scripture. Her sentences have scripture passages in them to build up her answer. If you believe that once you are saved you will always belong to Christ, she refuses to believe that. She has always made that clear. She believes in the freedom of sinful man over Almighty God. How sad that is. I thought by now she would see the Truth. But God has not shown that Truth to her yet. Maybe one day. Not everyone believes in the Sovereignty of God, yet they have given their lives to Christ. God shows us little by little.
---Luke on 2/23/18

Hello everyone:

Read for yourself Kathr's Statement in support of slavery:

"Nicole, the same could be said for slaves too. Many who owned slaves took great care of them, but got NO THANKS. How dare you criticize slavery when it was legal, regardless of whether adults were put in slavery or children. And HOW DARE YOU accuse any white man of abuse."
---kathr4453 on 11/22/16

"The fact I'd Nicole there were many wonderful Christian slave owners who treated their slaves well, even giving many land after their freedom."
---kathr4453 on 11/23/16
---john9346 on 2/23/18

Another Abusive Response by Kathr to others:

So either you are blind or a liar. Either way, you have issues Aservant. I don't like debating with dishonest people who think they are the ONLY one saved here and no one else is. Totally SELFRIGHTEOUS suffering from delusions of grandeur.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/17

"Excuse me Nicole, are you off your meds again, or have you recently hit your head on something????"

"Where is your right mind? No you did not get it right , and I see you never will."

Your are loony tunes Nicole...a stark raving IDIOT.
---kathr4453 on 1/24/17
---john9346 on 2/23/18

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Another Abusive Message by Kathr to another:

"I do hope and pray you were never a teacher Monk. And with that you should not be teaching anyone anything here online either.
---kathr453 on 5/6/16

It just shows how truly ignorant Monk is on many issues. A Monks world must be so narrow and locked away in a 1st century mentality they probably killed children who had dyslexia thinking they were demonic. I'm sure they beat them , out of IGNORANCE. And dyslexia has also affected extremely intelligent people.
kathr4453 on 5/5/16
---john9346 on 2/23/18

Yes it is John, and where should I and others begin here to bring charges against you for your making slanderous lies against others when you are challenged with scripture or those who don't agree with you.

All can tell the tongue in cheek comment was in retaliation to your childish behavior. Sometimes children like you don't know it not nice to bite, and need to feel what it is to be bitten back....because you are not mature enough to just know better. Not everyone needs such examples..only those who are seriously immature in being able to comprehend through their intelligence what is and isn't acceptable. Those SLOW and have low IQ's need to be taught right from wrong differently than normal children.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18

I don't buy into your reasoning that TRUTH has changed and lost its TRUTH
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

That is not what I am saying.

You said in one of your posts that the Gospel is simple. I agree 100 percent.

The truth is that Jesus came in human body to free us from sin and death and came to include us in the life of the Trinity. His directions to us were to love God with all that you are, to love others as you love yourself, and make disciples as you go along in life.

All the other stuff we discuss is non-essentials.

The truth is Jesus. He is the way, truth, and life. Knowing Him and His Father is eternal life.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/23/18

kathr said, "John is a child molester, wife beater and steals from the elderly. He is also a liar like his father."

Kathr, Just remember slander is grounds for a lawsuit...

What I stated about you are in your own words that I can post.

Mark_eatons's Questions to you are so right:

Tell me what you do to demonstrate the characteristics of Jesus, which you are supposed to be conformed into.

Tell me what you do to manifest the fruit of the Spirit into your life and others.

Tell me about the love you show to others that they will glorify our Father in Heaven.

---john9346 on 2/22/18

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Our faith is in the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. The Gospel is clearly defined in scripture. It's all so very SIMPLE.

Those who tell you you must read this or read that before you can understand the Gospel...RUN RUN RUN. This is actually a sure sign of a cult. They hand you the Book of Mormon for instance and say you need THIS to understand the Scriptures....the Calvinist's hand you their Calvin books...and so on and so on.

THIS Mark_Eaton is what I object to, and what I have been telling John for over a year now. I have not changed my mind. What you promote also is GNOSTICISM....the need for knowledge, but a knowledge NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

I don't buy into your reasoning that TRUTH has changed and lost its TRUTH because God is incapable of speaking English...that's what you are really saying....Scripture teaches scripture, and the TRUTH is IN CHRIST. God who made man, created all languages and is more than capable of revealing TRUTH to His Children regardless. Everyone KNOWS English is more limited in words ....say even the word LOVE. But the HP also shows us in our Spirit the differences. The Natural man is who cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and may need the church fathers to explain things to their flesh.

God is the same YESTERDAY TODAY and TOMORROW and is not limited in His POWER to teach us.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

Wow, theories weren't developed until AFTER the original apostles...
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

I invite you to discuss this.

Our faith is old, ancient in fact. The Apostles lived and wrote over 2000 years ago, in different languages and different cultures. But the God they served is still the same.

Can we know exactly what they meant? Perhaps. I would say our understanding of their words is less accurate than 1900 years ago. Our understanding is based upon translation from different languages and cultures.

My truth is this. If anyone tells you they have a new revelation of the Bible, one that has never been seen before, you better run from them.

The PSA was one such "revelation".
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/18

No Mark_Eaton...LOVE does not look for a reason to accuse another. Practice 1 Cor 13 before posting. I know many don't believe in OSAS, but they do believe in salvation, and I believe are saved. You seem to think unless everyone agrees with you 100% their attacking you.

Have no clue why you are angry. You started the post arguing against somethings I stated....I defended my statement...yet I never got mad at you for disagreeing. So you have issues with people who disagree WITH YOU. And your imagination works overtime accusing others where no one accused you. This may be a tactic to deflect from the original topic......not cool.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

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YET YOU falsely accused me out of YOUR imagination...How pathetic...
---kath4453 on 2/21/18

I am angry. I do not know if it is righteous anger or not, but I am angry.

Where is the fruit of the Spirit in your life?

Do you call your pastor pathetic when you disagree with him? Or do you have any oversight in your life?

You have in fact referred to universalism in nearly every response to me. Don't play dumb. And you did in fact say "Only those who believe Jesus died and rose again for the forgivness of sin and personally put their faith in HIM are SAVED...I bet you reject that truth also" meaning I reject Jesus and I am not saved.

I can read it no other way!
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/18

Mark_Eaton, I'm not sure where your head is at, but I never said anything you are accusing me of. This was not about why make it about you? If you are a, news to I guess I hit a nerve. I said anyone can find anyone to agree with whatever doctrine tickles their fancy...I used universalism as an example....I just as easily could have said Calvinism...totally opposites.

My personal belief is they are BOTH WRONG....yet we have the early church fathers teaching both..... We also have those who believed in infant baptism, vs believers baptism, Sunday vs keepers vs GRACE...all right from the beginning. They can't all be right . SO Your comment is bogus.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

Here's what I posted. Who accused YOU Mark_Eaton? You go on and on about unity...YET YOU falsely accused me out of YOUR imagination. It was a GENERAL STATEMENT. And I still stand by that statement stop twisting my words and making it about YOU.
But for others who believe in universalism or some other doctrine that tickles their ears...
---kath4453 on 2/20/18

Calling me names is a way for you to reject me and my beliefs.

I consider you calling me a universalist a badge of honor......
---Mark_Eaton on 2/21/18

How pathetic...
---kath4453 on 2/21/18

I bet you reject that truth also...but it's one the Apostles taught.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

That's right, tell me now I'm not saved.

First you label me, then you reject me, lastly you tell me I am totally lost.

Do you know that Billy Graham never told Karl Barth that he was lost, even though they disagreed on almost everything?

Why do you do that? Why not point out the things we agree on, like Jesus being Lord in our lives and our duty to make disciples.

I point out things to make us all think. But I need to show the fruits of the Spirit even when we disagree.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/21/18

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Wow, theories weren't developed until AFTER the original apostles. IF the Original Apostles did not disect the Atonement into the different theories of Penal vs Vicarious VS substitution and on and on......does that mean those during the time of the Original apostles WERE NOT SAVED....because one has to believe something that wasn't Worked out then?

I believe scripture tells us what God wants us to,know....and it's all there...doesn't need to be worked out but simply BELIEVED...Jesus died in My place for my sin, and rose again so that I can have resurrection LIFE IN HIM.

We are justified by His BLOOD and saved BY HIS LIFE.

I know RCC puts so much emphasis on SUFFERING, but we are not saved by Jesus suffering.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

Colossians 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ,

Colossians 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Like I was saying....
---kath4453 on 2/21/18

mark_eaton said, "I consider you calling me a universalist a badge of honor."

Mr. Eaton in case you didn't know the church condemned "Universalism."

Mark_eaton said, "the penal substitution theory of atonement. It was unknown to the Apostolic fathers."

This is not true.
---john9346 on 2/21/18

Mark_Eaton, Jesus didn't come to bring peace but a sword. Even in Pauls time there were false teachers and those who wanted to divide the Church. That's because SATAN is in control of this world....and not all who say Lord Lord are Christians.

Only those who believe Jesus died and rose again for the forgivness of sin and personally put their faith in HIM are SAVED...OSAS. I bet you reject that truth also...but it's one the Apostles taught.
God gave free will Mark_Eaton, and with that will come divisions..unless you WANT to come under Roman Rule again where they murder any and all who disagree with them..

America promises freedom to believe as I choose...not as you choose. And not everyone is IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

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But for others who believe in universalism or some other doctrine that tickles their ears...
---kath4453 on 2/20/18

Calling me names is a way for you to reject me and my beliefs.

But we are called to unity, unity of Spirit, and unity of belief. We are the body of Christ. We are all joined by our unity in having one Lord and one God and Father of all. The rest is family discussion.

Did the church fathers get it right? Do we? We all see dimly and do not know the entire truth.

I consider you calling me a universalist a badge of honor. God is a universalist. Unless I missed something, God loved everyone so much He sent His son so everyone who believes in Him would have everlasting life.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/21/18

Saint Jerome: The Perils of a Bible Translator

Ok here is a great article. Wasn't Jerome one of the so called Church Fathers John promotes? The first to translate and OH WHAT MESS. Not word for word! And there were riots about his bogus translations. no thanks.

So, just to clarify my personal conscience on the subject. The Lord told me to stay away from ...
---kathr4453 on 2/20/18

Mark_Eaton, the Holy Spirit has a marvelous way of teaching....and of showing support scriptures ...truth teaches truth..scripture teaches scripture. You make it sound like Gods hands are tied without these early church fathers.....who again many translated into Latin....also losing vLuable meaning.

Nope, The WORD of God is living and powerful and stronger than a two edge sword....and its God who reveals truth directly to HIS CHILDREN....He also gave us a STRONGS to look up original Greek, Hebrew, Aramic....and He also has the Power to work WITHIN US if He wants to show us something important. I love my personal relationship with the Lord....don't need the Church Fathers....I have the REAL FATHER.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/18

Also mark, John 3:18. Those who are Christians are not condemned...we will not be condemned, or experience the WRATH OF GOD. I would say, those who refuse to believe...will in fact face the Judgement, second death, and wrath.....which condemned sits just fine with me.

But for others who believe in universalism or some other doctrine that tickles their ears...I'm sure you can find at least one so called church father to do that for you.

The Church fathers were NOT more spirit filled and gifted than any Christian TODAY...with or without knowing all the different languages.
---kath4453 on 2/20/18

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I can understand Paul as if I were in Galatia today reading his letter.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/18

Except you do not speak Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic.

The beginning translators of our Western Bibles worked during the Reformation and believed in the PSA.

Want some proof? Look at one verse. John 3:18 in the KJV and NASB.

KJV: "He that believeth on him is not condemned"

NASB: "He who believes in Him is not judged"

The Greek word translated CONDEMNED or JUDGED is krino, where we get our word crisis from. It means to separate, to select, to determine, to resolve. Like a fork in the road.

Yet, the KJV translated it condemn. Why? Bias and prejudice.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/20/18

Mark_Eaton, there is no proof that the closer in date one is to the Apostles the more accurate the truth. I totally disagree.

The closer one is to God through Jesus Christ who is made unto US wisdom and Knowledge of truth is ALL one needs to know truth.

Truth is passed directly from the Word of God to man with no need for intermediaries necessary. I can understand Paul as if I were in Galatia today reading his letter. No one needed an interpreter of Pauls letters then OR NOW. The Holy Spirit..not church fathers reveals TRUTH .....

What you are talking about is RELIGION. However Christianity is a PERSON...not a religion.

I have a relationship with the Lord...I ask, He promised in James 1.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/18

ANYONE can comment on scripture but that does not make THEM an expert on doctrine...
---kathr4453 on 2/19/18

The reason we read the Apostolic church fathers is they were taught by the Apostles. And the Apostles were taught by Jesus. We cannot get closer to knowing the truth of the words written by the Apostles.

As I have mentioned in these blogs several times, our faith is ancient (2000 years old) and the older the understanding, the purer it should be.

A topic I use for example is the penal substitution theory of atonement. It was unknown to the Apostolic fathers and was developed much later by Anselm in 1098 and the reformers in 1400-1500. It is taken as pure fact today by the Protestant denominations.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/20/18

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