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Finish Here February 2018

Finish here February 2018

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18
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The dietary health laws God gave Israel were for health reasons, because back in those days eating pork that wasn't cooked thorough could kill you. And because of no refrigeration etc, and certain animals WE DONT EAT...lfor one...monkey, is an unclean animal. SO eating Monkey has caused horrible health issues today.

But they don't DEFILE YOU....they can make you sick....totally different than the definition of DEFILE. If THROWING UP is part of the understanding of the verse....then can throwing up DEFILE YOU? NO! What comes out of you is what comes out of the HEART. Also FOOD does not enter the heart....is Jesus point.

Hopefully Nicole can look up the definition of DEFILE on her own to understand the verse.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/18


Nicole I don't read in Mark 7:15 the words it is okay to eat pork. The topic on what is defiling. Not what is unhealthy and can make you sick.

Eating with unwashed hands will not make you a sinner. It could kill you. Today many can catch the flue from eating with unwashed hands.

Pork used to be and in many countries still dangerous to eat. Even my dad said you have to cook it well or it can make you sick.

So you need to see the context of the statement.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/18


ANYONE can comment on scripture but that does not make THEM an expert on doctrine. These all believed in the RCC version of the Eucharist....which is an issue with me also. In the very beginning there were false teachers ...GNOSTICS Paul, Peter John and James all warned against...and maybe IG was one of them. Calvinism is Gnosticism, and Augustine was a known gnostic.

If he wasn't GIFTED with a Spiritual GIFT to teach or whatever...he was just another RELIGIOUS NOBODY you exalt over scripture that NO ONE needs someone to chew up for you and spit in your mouth . You still need someone to chew your meat.

If You were eating MEAT, ON YOUR OWN , YOU would have your own testimony...not exalt the wisdom of MEN , AN ABSOLUTE NO NO.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/18


Sola Scriptura - according to whose interpretation?

It's been two thousand years and the written words of God has gone through many interpretations as even the language today. Even today interpreting the original hebrew, and greek, is very difficult. How Many bible interpretations are there in the world? This is why God sent out the apostles without any written material, but rely only upon the Holy Spirit for guidance. The written word is for our benefit for instruction, but when is it time to go from the word to the Holy Spirit?


As for eating meats:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Genesis 9:17
Acts 10:1015
Mark 7:14-23
1 Thessalonians 5:18
1 Thessalonians 5:18
---Steveng on 2/19/18


john9346:

You wrote: But Ignatius was referring to, "Scripture." when he wrote regarding predestination and election...

So what? Ignatius is not scripture, so what he writes is his personal opinion, not the Word of God. It may be a good, well-informed opinion, but an opinion nonetheless, just like your opinion or my opinion.

The whole idea of Sola Scriptura is that everything necessary is contained in scripture. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you should not require ANYONE'S statement outside of scripture to confirm it. To do so is to admit that Scriptura isn't really Sola after all.
---StrongAxe on 2/19/18




As a Christian I must FIRST obey my Father. As I a Nurse I do NOT have to help a woman get an abortion just because it is her 'right'.

//Please focus on the fact that you all do not have proof that Jesus paid roman taxes.

He didn't because they wanted His opinion.

Actions speak louder than words.

BTW, our law states no other law would supersede it so Sharia or Cuba law wouldn't be a good example because you are comparing apples to oranges

BTW, you do know that census are not taken for tax purposes?

They are for electoral mapping, military issues and the like.

You can have 10 people in a household and still ALL 10 people are exempted from paying taxes.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/19/18


Ignatius wrote of predestination. That I did not know. That means he was wrong.

The Bible does not teach Predestination.

Jesus will draw all men to him. If predestination is true than all humans will be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/18


strongaxe states, "Ignatius is not scripture."

But Ignatius was referring to, "Scripture." when he wrote regarding predestination and election...
---john9346 on 2/19/18


strongaxe,

So you know, Ignatius believed in Sola Scriptura something you reject...
---john9346 on 2/19/18


Hi Jerry, Please explain more on Mark 7:14-23.

Our Church as declared unclean foods as acceptable. Acts clarified foods as unacceptable, but pork was not included in that list.

"The Romans and Jesus said it was okay to eat pork. Mark 7:14-23"

StrongAxe, please explain WHY not Roman complain about Jesus NOT paying the poll tax as you call it the tax?

Only the Jews complained.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/19/18




john9346:

Ignatius is not scripture.


Nicole_Lacey:

A Christian in Atlanta must obey God's laws AND Atlanta's laws AND Georgia's laws AND U.S.A's laws.

Rome didn't exempt Jews from Roman law any more than we exempt from U.S. law ISIS terrorists (who believe Sharia commands death to infidels and disobedience to secular law.).

Rome and the U.S. PERMIT eating pork, and anyone can decline, but both REQUIRE paying taxes and you CAN'T decline.

Romans did not recognize Jesus as God, so BY THEM, he had to obey Roman laws. There was no exception "you don't have to pay if nobody complains" exception.

Rome had no INCOME TAX. It was a POLL TAX. If you were alive, you had to pay.
---StrongAxe on 2/19/18


Hi Nicole,

Your statement:

"The Romans and Jesus said it was okay to eat pork. Mark 7:14-23"

is incorrect. Jesus made no such statement. He was commenting (7:14-23) on the man-made pharisaical customs of ritual cup washings and made no mention of pork. Even Peter certified years after the cross that he had never eaten anything unclean (such as pork).
---jerry6593 on 2/19/18


The scriptures John posters...Philippians 2, 1 Corinthians are promises AFTER THEY WERE JUSTIFIED. Take the second one here...God works in you...now Compare to Hebrews 13-20-21.....now look at Romans 8:11-13. These are promises and the RESULT of those who are now Christians....nothing here remotely suggests CALVINISM's definition of any of the TULIP...

What those verses show is AFTER WE ARE SAVED, God is SANCTIFYING US, because CHRIST IS "NOW" IN US.

I am what I am John, by the Grace of God...and God is also working in me to Will and to do of His Good pleasure....and it happened AFTER my FREE WILL received Jesus Christ as My Lord and Savior.

Sanctification is NOT CALVINISM., it's SANCTIFICATION.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/18


Nicole, you did not CITE any backup proving Jesus was exempt from paying Roman Tax.....just you saying so does not make it a fact. Jesus earned money as a carpenter. He took Care of His Mother being the OLDEST, and what ever her debts would be. Or was she EXEMPT TOO...AND WHY?

And Nicole, there was no LAW in in Rome FORCING anyone to eat pork. Don't confuse customs with Laws.

You still did not answer my question..was Jesus the ONLY JEW under Roman RULE who did not pay Roman Tax? If so WHY....and back that up with scripture. Show a verse stating JESUS was the ONLY JEW under Roman Rule who did not pay Roman Taxes and WHY He alone was exempt. If He was EXEMPT He wasn't a Tax EVADER....like you accused Him of being.
---kath4453 on 2/19/18


Kathr: The ONLY WAY Jesus did not pay taxes is if ALL JEWS did not pay taxes. If they did so did Jesus, also a JEW.//

???

So the Jews have to follow the Roman's law INSTEAD of God's law?

The Romans and Jesus said it was okay to eat pork. Mark 7:14-23 But the Jews STILL refused.

Since when does Jesus HAVE TO FOLLOW the Romans and the Jewish way of thinking?

Is Jesus not God?

As for your odd question.

According the Roman Tax Law Jesus was Exempt from paying their taxes, because they were NOT COMPLAINING it was other Jews complaining not the Romans.

Jesus didn't earn any money to pay any taxes.

Base on what are the Romans going to tax Him?

He didn't OWN anything? Matthew 8:20
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/18/18


strongaxe states, ""who hath made us a part of his elect" does not necessarily imply predestination."

But Ignatius said and thought otherwise...

Strongaxe, respectfully sir, do you even take time to read the context of quotes before you respond?

Its illogical to make statements of opinions disprooving matters of factualness... its even more absurd when ones know not the material towards the object that he objects...

Remember, you stated once that you possess a lack of knowledge of the Church Father,therefore, its contradictory to not know of something,yet, be an experts??
(Logical Fallacy)
---john9346 on 2/18/18


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CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God,
he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me, I have shown myself to those
who did not ask for me" (
Rom 10:20,
quoting
Isa. 65:1).
The Council of Orange (Canon 3)
---john9346 on 2/18/18


CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through
the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (
Prov. 8:35,
LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (
Phil. 2:13).

The Council of Orange (Canon 4)

---
---john9346 on 2/18/18


CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask,
or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength
to do all these things as we ought, or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is
a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (
1 Cor. 4:7),
and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (
1 Cor. 15:10).
The Council of Orange (Canon 6)
---john9346 on 2/18/18


I agree with Strongaxe here. Another point, none of these men were chosen by God to write scripture, so all they are showing is how their own minds interpret scripture...no different that any Tom Dick and Harry today.

Also notice IN CHRIST is missing from the so called fathers ...an absolute focal point in Ephesians. Without those words IN CHRIST, the whole of the message has changed.

So, fact check finds the early fathers of whatever religion, a FALSE foundation not to build upon. Stick with scripture folks. You don't need the whatever fathers to intermediate between God and man....This is Jesus Job, and the Holy Spirits Job.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/18


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john9346:

"who hath made us a part of his elect" does not necessarily imply predestination. If you work for a company, and you do good work, and they promote you to manager, they "make you part of management", but the reason they do that was because of something YOU did, not something they foresaw in you before you were first hired.
---StrongAxe on 2/17/18


Monk Brendan and Mark_eaton

see fathers taught predestination and election.




"Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1



"To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father."

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)

Council of Ephesus and Orange also upheld what would become Calvinism...
---john9346 on 2/17/18


Mark_eaton you cited, "Justin Martyr's 2 Apology ch 7."

Sir, have you read ch 7 of Justin's second Apology?? he's actually teaching "Predestination." as well as the Doctrine of Total Inability.

Here's the opening, "Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits
---john9346 on 2/17/18


Mark_eaton you cited, "Ignatius (Epistle to the Magnesians)

Sir, have you read the context of this quote??

Actually, Ignatius isn't even addressing the matter of predestination and election in ch 5, ch 5 is addressing the fact whether someone is a Christian or not they will both die, everyone has an end.
---john9346 on 2/17/18


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strongaxe:

"this scripture talks about people finding life, not being "led" to it as God chooses it or not."

Sir, if you understood Calvinism you would know that this is "Secondary Causes." not, "Primary Causes." this is because of God's Eternal Decree (the result)

"You challenged the idea that Hades might not be a real place, because the word "in" was used with respect to it."

This isn't a flaw this is because you refuse to allow the author to explain himself. You have said "Sacred Scripture." isn't clear so now your contradicting yourself...

---
---john9346 on 2/17/18


Why waste time having a second judgement when all those in Christ were already judged/resurrected the first time?
---Steveng on 2/15/18

Everyone deserves a judgement regardless. Even criminals are given a hearing. And besides God said...after you die...THE JUDGEMENT. Also, no one goes to THE LAKE OF FIRE until After the Judgement.

Hebrews 11 FAITH was established right in the beginning. ABELS act of faith, obeyed God pointed to the redeemer....Cain's offering pointed to CAIN'S good works....God rejected CAIN'S right from the beginning. No where did God change His mind. If He had ...how totally unfair to Cain.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/18


Kathr, I can't address both you and StrongAxe at the same time on the same blog.

//Matthew 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest WE should offend them,
go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish...So it does appear Jesus did pay....
Why do you keep saying He didn't pay either?---kathr4453 on 2/16/18

You are being SO DISINGENUOUS

You start your verse AFTER the words 'TEMPLE TAX'

Next you end with the question asking me why I am saying He didn't pay. But refuse to say WHICH TAX I am claiming He ISN'T paying!

I ALWAYS said He paid the TEMPLE TAX!

Matthew 17 doesn't speak about the Roman tax just the TEMPLE TAX.

Matthew 22 speaks about the Roman Tax which Jesus DIDN'T PAY!

Not Nice
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/16/18


John9836 said "BTw, the Doctrine of Election and Predestination is all in the Church Fathers."

Exactly which Church Fathers are you talking about? Please give me the title, subheading (if there is one) The name of the Church Father, and so on, so I can look it up!

After I have read it for myself, then Fr. Basil and I will do our due diligence in the Greek, and get back to you.
---Monk_Brendan on 2/16/18


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There is confusion about the judgements. The lost are in the Second Resurrection. The saved are in the first.

Both are said to be judged. I believe those who have accepted Jesus are judged before the Resurrection. Not all will receive the same rewards in heaven. I just want to be there no matter what.

The lost will be judged by how long they will burn. I am just stating my understanding. The lost will be judged by their works for punishment.

The Righteous will have their actions judged for their rewards.

I can be wrong. But that is my understanding.

AGape
---Samuelbb7 on 2/16/18


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a loving God. He is also a just God. He will judge those who did not rise at the first resurrection (those who believed in Jesus) according to their works.

Why waste time having a second judgement when all those in Christ were already judged/resurrected the first time?
---Steveng on 2/15/18


Strongaxe, the verse does not say any were given eternal life BECAUSE of their good works. Maybe there are degrees of eternal separation, or maybe God as a just God will weigh in the balance a person's good works, and show them that even with all those their sin nature weighed in more ....

If the Bible doesn't say Exactly what good works qualifies, and HOW MUCH washes away sin...their still in their sin no matter what...

Even the LAW only caused sin to ABOUND..

Also Hebrews clearly state the Blood of Christ PURGES OUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS to serve the Living God. So you say God is going to judge dead works as worthy of eternal life?

Please study and rightly divide the WORD of Truth.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/18


kathr4453:

If all scripture is given by inspiration of God, saying that one is permitted to use Revelation but not Matthew in a proof means you think one book is correct and the other isn't.

However, here goes.

The White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):
The dead were judged according to what was in the books, according to THEIR DEEDS. Anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So tell me, who was NOT cast into the lake of fire here? Christians would have already been in the FIRST resurrection, and immune. These must therefore be non-Christians judged by WORKS.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/18


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So no one will be judged and given everlasting life because of their works. Even though they may be judged for works, the final book is the Lambs book of LIFE. And those not written in the book of LIFE are going to experience the second death....which is the lake of fire. And I see no scripture that any who are part of the 2nd resurrection are given eternal life because of their works. I imagine people will be judged and found wanting....and shown WORKS do not save...yet will be given that opportunity.

If scripture says so, using Revelation AND the 2nd resurrection ONLY , please back that up with scripture.

Using Matthew says NOTHING about the 1st and 2nd resurrections.....and those are judged who enter the 1000 year reign.
---kathr4453 on 2/15/18


To keep oneself UNSPOTTED from the world...are only those who are crucified to the world, and the world to us. That can Only be possible by being crucified with Christ and raised up together with Christ...seated with Him in heavenly places IN CHRIST. No natural man or man in the flesh( Christians are in the Spirit and no longer in the flesh or part of this world system) can be UNSPOTTED from the world..because they are still of this world. Only those who are defined in Colossians 3:1-4 are UNSPOTTED from the world in Gods eyes.

James1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
---kathr453 on 2/14/18


Steveng:

You wrote: all the other dead throughout all history shall rise and be judged from the book of life according to their works - some to everlasting death, some to everlasting life.

In other words, there will be some who will be judged worthy of everlasting life BECAUSE of their WORKS.
---StrongAxe on 2/14/18


There are two resurrections:

The first is upon the second return of Jesus when the dead in Christ shall rise and the living shall be caught up with the dead. This is at the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ.

The second is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead throughout all history shall rise and be judged from the book of life according to their works - some to everlasting death, some to everlasting life.

Blessed are those that rise in the first resurrection.

God is a righteous judge and judge those that are good at heart. James 1:27
---Steveng on 2/13/18


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---StrongAxe on 2/13/18

Strongaxe, again ETERNAL LIFE cannot be earned. Going from death ( in Adam all die) to Life ..In Christ we are made alive....the last Adam is that LIFE GIVING SPIRIT, and is not given to anyone who thinks they can earn it. If one can Earn salvation, Jesus died in vain.

As for those you are concerned about....I believe God is a just God. As I do believe ANYONE who seeks God, God will reveal Himself to them. I know of one such story of an Indian chief who had a vision of a redeemer....just didn't know Jesus name. Also even JOB said...I know that my redeemer liveth....

To tell anyone they can get to heaven on good works IS A LIE STRONGAXE, you don't want to be guilty of telling others
---kathr4453 on 2/13/18


The MAJORITY of humanity is in that situation. Let that sink in.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/18

If I could weigh in...

Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

First, we must seek God, we must come to God. A relationship with God not under our control. This coming to God is of humility, we do not come to God in a proud haughty way.

Second, we must believe that God exists, that God is who He says He is, that God is good, and that God is a rewarder of those we seek Him, not a stingy hoarder who keeps things from us.

Remember, the key ingredient is faith.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/13/18


Final thought to Steveng's comment. The true Circumcision are those who worship God and rejoice in Christ Jesus. A CIRCUMCISED HEART BELIEVES IN GOD AND JESUS.


Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, MEANING WORKS .... whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.. Which again means works.

So nowhere does Romans 1 -2 say just because they KNOW right from wrong and do good works WITHOUT BELIEF IN GOD OR JESUS can get you to heaven. It says the OPPOSITE.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/18


kathr4453:

Does this mean that most of the world was doomed to go to hell because they didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel, through no fault of their own? E.g. people in China in 34 A.D. were doomed from the get go because it was their fault it would take evangelists centuries to get there from Jerusalem?
---StrongAxe on 2/13/18


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Strongaxe, Romans 1- 2 tells us what things were like BEFORE the flood, and lays down a history of that time. And as we see, only Noah and his sons and wives actually LIVED through that time. Also we see Hebrews 11 start from Adam and Eve ABEL ..and on down..as to WHO AND HOW, one was declared righteous in Gods eyes. It has always been OF FAITH from the beginning of time until the end of time. WORKS NEVER EVER EVER won anyone to Heaven...EVER.

Abel BY FAITH..offered a sacrifice...and that sacrifice pointed to FAITH in the promised redeemer we know to be Jesus Christ.

in Adam ALL DIE, they died because of SIN... And Jesus died and rose again for the forgivness of SIN....
No one comes to the Father except THROUGH THE SON.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/18


Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You say....how can God judge those before the flood by the Gospel...which is THE PROMISED REDEEMER promised in Genesis 3:15 ..immediately after Adam sinned. Well He can and WILL. No where in the beginning of man did God or anyone teach you could get to heaven by GOOD WORKS.

Also if that were so, why then did God send Peter to Cornelius's house...a religious man who worshipped God......obviously wasn't enough....

NO one is going to Heaven because they THINK their good works is good enough for God. ALL have sinned and fallen short of THE GLORY OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/18


I think it's also important to know that Romans 1-2 do not teach total depravity. They, as fallen man DID have a conscience to know right from wrong, good and evil, and they...turned from the Glory of God and began to worship man and beast. That's why God gave THEM UP.....not all mankind. THEM those before the flood.

And even with that Strongaxe, no scripture teaches that Enoch or Abel or any of those who were JUST men, were JUST due to works. They were JUST..also meaning JUSTIFIED because of their FAITH.

So man is without excuse is correct. And those who SEEK GOD will find Him...no matter where they are or where they live. MY GOD is bigger than you think or give him credit for.
---kath453 on 2/13/18


kathr4453:

Romans 1-2 speak about God's law being written on the hearts of ALL, making them without excuse when they break it. There are many who obey those laws (i.e. loving their neighbor, feeding the poor, etc.) even though they grow up in pagan cultures and don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel. The MAJORITY of humanity is in that situation. Let that sink in.

What's the point of writing God's law on people's hearts if, by obeying it, they end up going to hell anyway? That makes it sound like some kind of cruel joke.

(It's curious - I would expect Haz27 to be weighing in on this, but he hasn't posted in almost a month!)
---StrongAxe on 2/13/18


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Steveng, there is no such thing as NOT believing in God or Jesus but still doing His Will. You can't even KNOW or PROVE Gods will unless 1) you are saved, and have the mind of Christ( SPIRITUAL, NOT CARNAL) which is ONLY give to those who believe, and 2) OBEY God to total surrender. Sorry but this is GOD'S rule, not some man made rule.


Romans 12:1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/18


Steveng, if you need back up to what I just said, here is another debunking your question. And the LAW of God here is not the Law of Moses. So any person who does not believe in God or Jesus cannot be spiritually minded....only those Born again and walk in the spirit are spiritually minded.

Romans 8:6 But the carnal mind is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Anyone asking such a question cannot know the TRUTH in any capacity.
---kath4453 on 2/13/18


What about the people who don't believe in Jesus or God, but still does God's will?
---Steveng on 2/12/18


Thank you for agreeing with Scripture that teaches Hell is a literal place...
---john9346 on 2/10/18

I have shown you two quotes from Apostolic Fathers that prove they did not believe in Predestination as you Calvinists believe. You disagreed before and said both of these Fathers did.

Please show me two quotes from Apostolic Fathers before Augustine, that prove your point that they believed in Predestination as Calvinists believe.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/12/18


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Seek and YE shall find. Is God doing the seeking and finding us, or vice versa?

Come unto me.....is this something Jesus says, or something we say... Being given REST is Salvation, only Jesus can give....but who does He give it too? ONLY those who COME TO HIM.

We must enter HIS REST. And Heb 10 Tell us how.....Through the veil, that is to say His Flesh, a NEW AND LIVING WAY.

These verses also debunk Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/18


john9346:

You asked how I knew that the majority of people were going to hell. Isn't that implied if "few find the way to life"? Also (not related to this question, but related to things you said earlier elsewhere), this scripture talks about people finding life, not being "led" to it as God chooses it or not.

You challenged the idea that Hades might not be a real place, because the word "in" was used with respect to it. I just pointed out the flaw in that particular reasoning, as "in" is also used with a mind, which is NOT a real place.
---StrongAxe on 2/10/18


strongaxe states, "Matthew 7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
(note "find" and not "are led to")."


Strongaxe, your point sir??

strongaxe ask, "Does this mean that a mind is a literal place?"

Sir, what does the context reveal? Do you know what Paul is addressing?
---john9346 on 2/10/18


Mark_eaton said, "Please read my posts. I said Hades is not an ETERNAL place. It is a literal place."

Thank you for agreeing with Scripture that teaches Hell is a literal place... Before you said Hell was invented by Calvinists so thank you sir for hearing the Voice of God in the Scriptures...
---john9346 on 2/10/18


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John 6 Jesus states the Bread and Wine is His Body and Blood you all make all kinds of excuses how it ISN'T His Body and Blood.

But when things are NOT in the Bible you want me to believe it exists. ???//

StrongAxe: It also doesn't say they went to the bathroom.//

They DIDN'T ASK his opinion about using the bathroom as they did about paying taxes to Caesar.

//EVERYBODY had to pay taxes, and Joseph and Mary and Jesus were PEOPLE,//

You can't prove Joseph and Mary paid Taxes either!

//What part of that don't you understand??//

WHAT part do you not understand that if Jesus was ALREADY PAYING taxes they wouldn't ask HIS OPINION about paying taxes?

Why is that so hard for you to understand?
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/9/18


As Calvinist's we don't know who is elected. If we knew who are elected then your argument would be valid...
---john9346 on 2/9/18

John, do you know for a fact if you are elect, and if so, exactly what proof do you have that you are? So, is it the belief in the doctrine of Calvinism that PROVES one is the Elect! Or is it faith in Jesus death and resurrection, and being crucified with Christ being raised up together with Him a New Creature, ....is how one is saved by Grace in other words..THEN BECOMING THE ELECT

We know the elect in this dispensation is CHRIST IN YOU, and that comes only after one is Justified.

The few THAT FIND IT, is actually those who identify WITH Jesus in death and resurrection NOW.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/18


john9346:

Romans 14:5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Does this mean that a mind is a literal place?


Nicole_Lacey:

That the Bible didn't EXPLICITLY say they paid taxes doesn't mean they didn't. It also doesn't say they went to the bathroom. EVERYBODY had to pay taxes, and Joseph and Mary and Jesus were PEOPLE, part of EVERYBODY. What part of that don't you understand??


john9346:

Matthew 7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
(note "find" and not "are led to").
---StrongAxe on 2/9/18


Mr. Eaton, explain, can you take something from a non-literal place?
---john9346 on 2/9/18

Please read my posts. I said Hades is not an ETERNAL place. It is a literal place.

Ignatius (Epistle to the Magnesians) "...there is set before us life upon our observance, but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life"

Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho) "But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/18


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Nicole, Jesus was a Carpenter by trade. If all had to register to pay taxes, then they paid them.

Stop making stuff up Nicole.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/18


Mark_eaton states, "Hades is not separated from God and Hades is not an eternal place:"

Sir, respectfully, you make this statement but then you turn right around and contradict your self listen:

Did you not hear John's Words, "and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them,"

Note, "In them." meaning hades is a literal place.

Mr. Eaton, explain, can you take something from a non-literal place?
---john9346 on 2/9/18


Kathr: if Joseph and Mary paid taxes, so did Jesus. //

They NEVER paid taxes. You made that up. The Bible ONLY states they were enrolled. STOP making up stuff!

Jesus DIDN'T have money and DIDN'T pay Taxes! Scripture is clearly on my side! Wishful thinking isn't going to change FACTS!

//Otherwise...no one is going to find SALVATION by arguing whether Jesus paid taxes.//

SALVATION? But you can't lose SALVATION for changing words in the Bible!

StrongAxe, the Left was too BUSY trying to stop us from SEEING the memo they didn't fill out the proper documents to have their memo released
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/9/18


Mark and Strong Ax. Great points thank you.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/9/18


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strongaxe ask, "Again, if God drawing someone is the sole reason for their salvation, what's the point in preaching the gospel?"

Might I say this is a great question...

Strongaxe, The gospel is preached first because it is a command to do so, second, it is the means that God has foreordained to awaken his elect...

strongaxe states, "Also, it means God has created billions of people, MOST of whom are DESTINED BY GOD'S CHOICE to burn in hell forever,"

wow! are you now God that you know who are the elect and how many are damned??

Strongaxe, sir as Calvinists we don't know who is elected. If we knew who are elected then your argument would be valid...
---john9346 on 2/9/18


Mark_eaton states, "Not prior to Augustine."

This is emphatically false...

Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome all taught the Doctrine of Predestination and Election. They're others but i'll just start with these 4 for now..
---john9346 on 2/9/18


Nicole_Lacey:

It was a classified right-slanted government document. There were similar left-slanted ones Trump did NOT release, because he's not interested in truth, only what makes him and his people look good.


john9346:

Again, if God drawing someone is the sole reason for their salvation, what's the point in preaching the gospel? It can't help someone who isn't drawn, and someone who IS drawn is already drawn, whether he hears it or not. Also, it means God has created billions of people, MOST of whom are DESTINED BY GOD'S CHOICE to burn in hell forever, to fulfill some glorious plan. Does creating someone SOLELY to torture them forever sound "good" to you?
---StrongAxe on 2/8/18


BTw, the Doctrine of Election and Predestination is all in the Church Fathers.
---john9346 on 2/7/18

Not prior to Augustine.

Most of the Apostolic Fathers believed that each man is fully responsible before God for his acceptance or rejection of the Gospel. Apostolic Fathers that agreed with this were: Clement, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tatian, Tertullian, and many more.

Augustine altered the path of Christianity. His theories and doctrines have caused the separation of church and science, the separation of secular and sacred, and many of the problems with Western Theology.

I consider many of Augustine's doctrines flawed, especially free-will, predestination and irresistible grace, and original sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/8/18


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Nicole, why are you so obsessed with the news and Trump? Gee, you should get out more and enjoy life...stop worrying about what MSNBC or what anyone other than FOX says.

Yea, the memo only made Trump look STILL GUILTY, not proving one thing. Like I said...if he would only wait until,the Lord vindicated him, and stop trying to vindicate himself to no avail, this may have been over months ago. And if he only took Obamas advise and NOT hired Flynn...who knows.... but his arrogant ego felt he knew better than Obama....like I've always said, he is his own worst enemy.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/18


So the Lord Jesus Christ himself contradicts you followed by Paul, and John all contradict you my friend...
---john9346 on 2/7/18

There is no contradiction.

Jesus created Hades (John 1:3) and currently upholds Hades (Heb 1:3). Hades is not separated from God and Hades is not an eternal place:

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds

Just as death is swallowed up in life, Hades is swallowed up in judgment.

Judgment that is the setting right of things, not your legalistic view carried over from the Middle Ages.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/8/18


Kathr: Trump listens to,the Media 24/7. He's obsessed with the media.//

And you are obsessed with what he does 24/7.

//And my understanding Hannity encouraged Trump to release the memo,//

Who told you that? MSNBC?

Really? So they are STILL wiretapping him?

BTW, the memo belongs to the people!

We have the RIGHT to see that MEMO!

//that so many even REP thought was ill advised .It turns out it DID NOT VINDICATE him at all,//

No, it proves your REP are lying to and they just didn't want you to know the FBI's names involved. It did VINDICATED him

//just like a fascist dictator.//

Yet he released the memo and you didn't wanted it to be released.

Who is the fascist?
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/8/18


david ask, "If God chooses who he will save before we are born, how does someone come to believe in Jesus Christ, before they are born?"

I like your question my friend...

Here is how the Lord Jesus answers your question:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6:44

David, you see sir, all those who are of the elect are drawn by the Father to place their faith in Christ and repent...



---john9346 on 2/8/18


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mark_eaton said, "Thank you for your definition of Cosmos. As you know, cosmos is used in John 3:16 and Jesus, who created the entire cosmos, surely knew what He was saying. For God so loved the Cosmos. Even our planet was changed by man's sin."

So are you saying the planet needed to be save sir??
---john9346 on 2/8/18


David,

The 2 views:

Arminianism view takes election out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of man.
This makes the purposes of Almighty God to be conditioned by the precarious wills of apostate men and makes temporal events to be the cause of His eternal acts. It means further that He has created a set of sovereign beings upon whom to a certain extent His will and actions are dependent.


Calvinism offers us a great God who is infinite in His perfections, who dispenses mercy and justice as He sees best, and who actually rules in the affairs of men.
---john9346 on 2/8/18


Nicole, Trump listens to,the Media 24/7. He's obsessed with the media. And my understanding Hannity encouraged Trump to release the memo, that so many even REP thought was ill advised . It turns out it DID NOT VINDICATE him at all,.....but to me it shows that he will always put his thin skin before the well being of the country. No no Trump tries endlessly to vindicate himself. His immaturity level is frightening. Now he wants to have a military parade, parading all our goods and ware to the whole world just like a fascist dictator. He doesn't care how much it costs out of OUR TAXES.... I have a problem with that....seeing Puerto Rico still in need. The peasants may one day have the last say to this Louie and Antoinette wanna be.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/18


KATHR: One such time in history was how horrible the Irish were treated by England, and burnt their houses down if they didn't pay their taxes.//

I am glad you acknowledge that horrible fact.

Catholic Irish houses were burnt by the Protestant England

//I sure hope FOX News is not putting these ideas in your head.//

I know you NEED the media to tell you what, how and when to think, but don't assume everyone needs the media what, how and when to think.

//They've done enough damage lately in giving wrong advise.---kathr4453 on 2/5/18

Amazing? Do you really think Journalism are there to advise us?

The Main Stream Media really has you controlled.

Walk off the Plantation
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/7/18


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david ask, "If God chooses who he will save before we are born, how does someone come to believe in Jesus Christ, before they are born?"

I like your question my friend...

Here is how the Lord Jesus answers your question:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6:44

David, you see sir, all those who are of the elect are drawn by the Father to place their faith in Christ and repent...

---john9346 on 2/7/18


Mark_eaton states, "This and the statement by Jesus in John 14:20 of "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" shows us that it is God's intention that we be included in the life of the Trinity, to be plugged in to their relationship."

But your forgetting one thing that Jesus said this to the men he had "Elected." and not everyone who would ever live.

The Lord Jesus Christ was veryspecific see, Jn 6:64-70.

BTw, the Doctrine of Election and Predestination is all in the Church Fathers.
---john9346 on 2/7/18


Mark_eaton states, "Your question is about punishment. Punishment is a Calvinist subject, not mine."

False, and again, the authors of Scriptures contradict you for they believed and taught of a literal place call Hell...

See, Lk 16:19-31, 2 Thes 1:8-9 Rev20:10-15, 21:8-9.

So the Lord Jesus Christ himself contradicts you followed by Paul, and John all contradict you my friend...
---john9346 on 2/7/18


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