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Finish it here February 2018 #2

Finish it here February 2018 #2

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 ---john9346 on 2/20/18
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john9346:

I didn't say the bible cannot be understood. I DID say that for YOU to assume that YOUR understanding is correct and mine is not, is extremely presumptuous.

There are some parts of the Bible that indicate that God has everything planned from the outset. There are others that suggest that we have free choice. BOTH of these are true, and to focus on one while ignoring the other gives a distorted picture. Proper exegesis requires integration of ALL sources, not just the ones that favor your thesis - that is eisegesis.

Once again, if our choices are all predetermined, why bother even discussing this here, since it can't possibly make any difference? Please answer this.
---StrongAxe on 3/8/18


The problem with Paul was not the Gospel he taught. But what some did with it.

2Pe 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you,

2Pe 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/8/18


david ask, "If Paul taught a different Gospel than Jesus Christ, and Pauls Gospel voided the Gospel of Jesus Christ, why did the the Lords twelve disciples teach the The Gospel of Christ...and not The Gospel of Paul?"

Tell me what makes you think Paul taught a different gospel.

In Scripture the other 12 apostles never had a problem with Paul's Teachings...

---john9346 on 3/8/18


strongaxe said, "Yes, he can. However YOU are not in a position to tell me that YOUR interpretation of what he means is correct while MY interpretation is not."It

Sir, first, your position is that the bible can not be understood this idea I reject as heresy. Your being Logically inconsistent because your trying to steal from my position and make it yours while rejecting mine see how illogical that is...

Next, your interpretation is not based on contextual exegetical understanding your just reading your opinion in to the text.

This notice because you try to read jn 6:38 with Jn 10:18 which are totally different topics...

is if one is
---john9346 on 3/8/18


strongaxe said, "NOWHERE does Jesus ever say that he will reject those who decide to come on their own."

Sir, the Lord Jesus Christ just told you in Jn 6:37, also see vs 44 and 64-65...

strongaxe said, "Again, if our actions have NO SAY in whether we are saved or not, why are you even on these blogs? Why are you trying to convince anyone of ANYTHING, as whether they believe your or not has already been predetermined, whether you talk to them or not?

You do not understand your asserting fatalism that is not Calvinism... This has all ready been explain to you illogical to keep asserting...
---john9346 on 3/8/18




strongaxe:

Isa 7:16 is addressing Messianic prophecy not Spiritually Dead Sinners having the power to choose Christ...

Josh 24:15 and Deut 30:19 were to Israel an all ready Elected and Predestine People.

Prov 3:31 is addressing character not where sinners can choose to come to Christ on their own...

Do you see, how you have so disrespectfully ripped these verses out of there context.
You can only do this because your position is the bible can't be understood

I pray God bring you to true Biblical Repentance sir...
---john9346 on 3/8/18


John
Last question
If Paul taught a different Gospel than Jesus Christ, and Pauls Gospel voided the Gospel of Jesus Christ, why did the the Lords twelve disciples teach the The Gospel of Christ...and not The Gospel of Paul?
---David on 3/8/18


Jesus saved, DOCTRINE DOES NOT.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/18

Correction Jesus SAVES ( and is still saving souls) ..

Free will is taught through the scriptures. And we also have in Acts those who RESISTED the Holy Spirit.

ITS LIKE THIS. When we preach the Gospel ACCOMPANIED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT( Calvinism is not) it's the Holy Spirit who draws you to Christ and THEN Jesus Christ ( if you receive Him, BRINGS YOU TO THE FATHER. Calvinists have this backwards, and so discombobulated. They say the Father puts you in Christ first and then the Holy Spirit rebirths you to believe...some strange doctrine not even supported in scripture. No one can even COME to the Father except FIRST they come THROUGH Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/18


So the Lord Jesus who is God is unable to tell us what he means??
---john9346 on 3/7/18

So DID the Lord Jesus actually tell you this John, or did you NEED the Church Fathers to tell you what Jesus meant. Because Jesus never told me what you claim He told you.

Jesus is very thorough in backing up scripture HIS WORD in many places with many examples. The CHOSEN not going into the Promised land which was already theirs....shows FAITH COMES FIRST before POSSESSION.

You all put faith AFTER possession.....not found ANYWHERE in scripture.

So exactly who's voice are you listening to? NOT JESUS' that's for sure.
---kath4454 on 3/8/18


john9346:

Yes, he can. However YOU are not in a position to tell me that YOUR interpretation of what he means is correct while MY interpretation is not. Both of our opinions are just that - opinions.

NOWHERE does Jesus ever say that he will reject those who decide to come on their own.

Again, if our actions have NO SAY in whether we are saved or not, why are you even on these blogs? Why are you trying to convince anyone of ANYTHING, as whether they believe your or not has already been predetermined, whether you talk to them or not?

As for choice and free will: Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15, Proverbs 3:31, Isaiah 7:16, Isaiah 56:4.
---StrongAxe on 3/7/18




Ya know, no one has ever gotten saved by having the doctrine of Calvinism rammed down your throat. Plus John, this is your conviction, not mine or Strongaxe's or many others. That's what is so wonderful about a personal relationship with the Lord...to have the FREEDOM to grow in the Grace and knowledge of Him and have that confidence that what HE tells us is true.

Insisting God only chose so many and rejected the others IS NOT THE GOSPEL. It's not even the Gospel according to the Mystery.

Jesus saved...DOCTRINE DOES NOT.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/18


strongaxe said, "No. This is a matter of "your interpretation of what Jesus said disagrees with me", not "Jesus disagrees with me."

So the Lord Jesus who is God is unable to tell us what he means??

strongaxe said, "The bolded portion relies on an action of one who comes. Free will. It does not say, "The one whom the Father draws to me I will certainly not cast out"."

Sir, respectfully, your not paying attention the Lord Jesus said prior, ""All that the Father gives Me will."

The result is the ones the Father gives him are the ones he won't cast out... not those who decide to come on their own...
---john9346 on 3/7/18


strongaxe:

You asked me to read vs 38 of Jn 6

It says, "For I came down from heaven. Not to do mine own will , But the will of him that sent me,"

Strongaxe in this context what is the will of the Lord Jesus? Do you know vs 38 is the conversation from vs 37-40??

Not sure of your point regarding Jn 10:18, but since you brought it up did you read vs 11-16 my friend??

BTW, the bible only use freewill referring to offerings not Spiritually Dead Sinners...
---john9346 on 3/7/18


david:

"John If Jesus taught the Law of Moses, the old covent, why did Paul teach the Gospel of Christ,"
Did not the Lord Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law/OC?

"why did Paul teach the Gospel of Christ,"

Because Paul understood that the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled it all.

"and why does it say we will be judged according to the Lords Gospel in (2 Thessalonians 1:8)'"

Because they do not knowGod and they do not obey...

"Does (John 1:17) say Jesus
brought us the Law of Moses?"

No,
---john9346 on 3/7/18


david ask, "If a sinner claims victory over sin, and yet he continues to sin, can he claim victory? If they can, how do you define victory?"

David, this is John's Entire Argument in ch 3 that he is using to make distinctions between Christians and nonChristians...

John is explaining to the readers that saints do not practice sin habitually, but sinners do.

This is why John The Apostle wrote, "8 the one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
---john9346 on 3/7/18


Well RichardC, when we obey God's will and not our own, we are also choosing to be obedient to HIS WILL. Again showing free will. Jesus was our example of not doing His own will, but doing the will of the Father ....not by FORCE, or some robotic mindless action.

We can choose to DO His Will or NOT do His Will.....but first you have to KNOW His will...Romans 12:1-2. I BECEECH you....is not FORCING, anyone, but BECEECHING them. If we already our of no free will DO the Will of God....no one needs to BECEECH anyone in the first place.

Yes Jesus came to do the Will of the father and left us an example to FOLLOW...Even Paul said...FOLLOW ME THE WAY I FOLLOW CHRIST. I see free will written all over these verses.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/18


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John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven. Not to do mine own will , But the will of him that sent me,

----> Not my own will

John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him , may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up on the last day,

------- > Will of Him

( Question : Real Believe - Faith - Comes from man"s will or God's will ?


John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, That ye believe on him whom he hath sent,
---RichardC on 3/7/18


john9346:

You wrote: the Lord Jesus Christ disagrees with you he said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ...

No. This is a matter of "your interpretation of what Jesus said disagrees with me", not "Jesus disagrees with me".

The bolded portion relies on an action of one who comes. Free will. It does not say, "The one whom the Father draws to me I will certainly not cast out".

Also re: verse 38:
John 10:18: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself."
The Father commanded Jesus to lay down his life, but Jesus CHOSE to do this. He was not FORCED. Again, free will.
---StrongAxe on 3/6/18


john 6:37-39 is in two parts just as John 17 has a second part verse 20

All that the Father has given Jesus are from Israel who belong to the Father.These are those from Israel who are His 12 Apostles God the Father gave Jesus. Remember Israel belongs to the Father..the BOC/Bride belong to Jesus. Israel was already Gods elect. please dont confuse the two.

and alll those who come to me part 2 second group....these are WHO SO EVER WILL out of Jews and Gentiles ...just as John 17:20 state...and those who believe on me through their word. the THEIR here are the Apostles and followers of Jesus out of Israel at the time of Jesus death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/18


David, Jn 8:34 is prior to the Lord Jesus going to the cross my friend (Mosaic Law)-John

John
If Jesus taught the Law of Moses, the old covent, why did Paul teach the Gospel of Christ, and why does it say we will be judged according to the Lords Gospel in (2 Thessalonians 1:8)? Does (John 1:17) say Jesus
brought us the Law of Moses?

Sinners do not repent (Radical Turning) from sin,however, Christians/saints do repent and have victory over sin.---john9346

John
If an alcoholic claims to have victory over alcohol, yet still drinks alcohol, does he have victory over alcohol?
If a sinner claims victory over sin, and yet he continues to sin, can he claim victory? If they can, how do you define victory?
---David on 3/6/18


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strongaxe said, "
No. Calvinism would be "the Father who has CHOSEN us as a part of his elect". The father accepts ANYONE who will come - and the choice of whether to come God is up to those who come. When they come, God makes them part of his elect. That is as a result of his promise, not his pre-selection."

Strongaxe, the Lord Jesus Christ disagrees with you he said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." Jn 6,:37-39
---john9346 on 3/5/18


strongaxe said, "Note that this is as a result of God and a sinner coming and reasoning TOGETHER, not God making a unilateral decision."

Strongaxe, tell us, did the Israelites do this yes or no??

Strongaxe, if sinners are autonomous as your saying then would God have had to make this deal?? If your position is true then why aren't the sinners making the deal with God instead of it being the other way around??
---john9346 on 3/5/18


david said, "John
If you sin, you are still a sinner.(John 8:34)."

David, Jn 8:34 is prior to the Lord Jesus going to the cross my friend (Mosaic Law)

Saints are not sinners is John's Argument in 1 Jn 3:1-9.

Sinners do not repent (Radical Turning) from sin,however, Christians/saints do repent and have victory over sin.

I hope your definition of repentance is the same as the Lord jesus and his apostles,otherwise, thats a different gospel and a differentcant sve no one my friend...
---john9346 on 3/5/18


david said, "John
If you sin, you are still a sinner.(John 8:34)."

David, Jn 8:34 is prior to the Lord Jesus going to the cross my friend (Mosaic Law)

Saints are not sinners is John's Argument in 1 Jn 3:1-9.

Sinners do not repent (Radical Turning) from sin,however, Christians/saints do repent and have victory over sin.

I hope your definition of repentance is the same as the Lord jesus and his apostles,otherwise, thats another gospel and another gospel cant save anyone my friend...
---john9346 on 3/5/18


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John 9346 said, "see below Church Fathers who taught Calvinism...

First Clement 29:1

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)

Council of Ephesus and Orange also upheld what would become Calvinism..."


Ignatius and the councils of Ephashus and Orange ALL predate Calvin, some by almost a millennium.

Sometimes, Orthodoxy and Protestantism use words that sound and spell exactly the same way, and yet mean totally different things. This forum does not have the room or depth to have that discussion.
---Monk_Brendan on 3/5/18


StrongAxe: Because we are not in disagreement about what is rendered to God.//

I don't know that!

You NEVER answered the question!

Please ANSWER so I can know if we are in agreement.

//We are only in disagreement about what is rendered to Caesar.//

You see what I mean? We are NOT in disagreement.
I agree with you. But you just want to disagree with me that you keep ignoring my answer.

CAESAR WANTS HIS COINS BACK

//He didn't say "Judge what Caesar does with it, then refuse to pay if it doesn't meet your standards."//

Who is judging Caesar?

AGAIN, I KEEP SAYING JESUS NEVER PAID TAXES TO CAESAR!

Understand?

I don't donate to Church Leaders who money either.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/5/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Why are you ONLY focusing on WHAT Caesar gets and NOT what is rendered to God?

Because we are not in disagreement about what is rendered to God. We are only in disagreement about what is rendered to Caesar.

Jesus said, "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's". He didn't say "Judge what Caesar does with it, then refuse to pay if it doesn't meet your standards." Once we pay our taxes, the responsibility of what the government does with those taxes belongs to those who run the government, and not to us - just as when we give money to the local church, the responsibility for what that church does with that money is on the church leaders, and no longer on those who donate the money.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/18


Next, after one becomes a saint he or she can confess a sin, but it is not the same as a sinner confessing. Do you agree?-John

John
If you sin, you are still a sinner.(John 8:34) Saying I sin, but I am not a sinner, is like saying, I lie, but that does not make me a liar. Besides, those born of God Do Not Sin according to ( 1 John 3:9).

The NT also commands repentance do you agree?
Repentance was not possible under the OT.---john9346 on 3/2/18


Yes, I agree with both statements, but I believe my definition of Repentance May be different from yours.
---David on 3/4/18


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Sorry StrongAxe, you missed understood my 'who cares'. I was speaking about your historical claim of Roman's poll tax for everyone requirement as IF it meant Jesus was PART of the 'everyone'.

Then you came back saying a small offense meant the death penalty. Which I proved Biblical it didn't.

Which AGAIN you have NOT proven that Jesus paid taxes Biblical when I keep using the Bible prove my point.

Somehow you and I have didn't sets of rules.

//I ask you for at least the FOURTH TIME. Just WHAT is it that Jesus wanted us to "render unto Caesar"?//

I told you many times his coins. BUT, Jesus NEVER had Caesar' COINS TO RETURN TO CAESAR.

ANSWER this statement.

What do we render to God?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/4/18


john9346:

No. Calvinism would be "the Father who has CHOSEN us as a part of his elect". The father accepts ANYONE who will come - and the choice of whether to come God is up to those who come. When they come, God makes them part of his elect. That is as a result of his promise, not his pre-selection.

Repentance was not possible under the OT.

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Note that this is as a result of God and a sinner coming and reasoning TOGETHER, not God making a unilateral decision.
---StrongAxe on 3/3/18


Monk Brendan,

see below Church Fathers who taught Calvinism...





"Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1



"To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father."

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)

Council of Ephesus and Orange also upheld what would become Calvinism...

---john9346 on 2/17/18
---john9346 on 3/3/18


I think Mark_Eaton is wonderful too. That's why I was a little caught off guard when I felt insulted by his post to me. Or that he just wouldn't accept my personal conviction that I don't NEED the so called early church fathers in order to understand the Gospel. I have said this often and have gotten this far...35+ years Of Knowing the Lord without the church fathers. It's out of line to question anyone's faith because they doubt God's faithfulness to those who belong to Him in a personal relationship, teaching us, and praising God for that faithfulness in keeping His promises , who then they have the audacity to ask you to PROVE IT.

But it appears many only have Calvin or Augustine or whoever....and would be lost without them.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/18


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david said, "Confession of sin is not only for forgiveness, it is also for cleansing, a cleaning which must be done to keep us from becoming wretched before God."

agree,however, the NT Understanding of confession is acknowledging that one has sinned this also includes the understanding that one is a sinner.

Next, after one becomes a saint he or she can confess a sin, but it is not the same as a sinner confessing. Do you agree?

The NT also commands repentance do you agree?

Repentance was not possible under the OT.
---john9346 on 3/2/18


david said, "John
Yes, I know its a model and not to be repeated verbatim. But why would the model have a daily confession of sin, if it was not needed?"

And again, where do you see a daily confession of sins in this Modeled Prayer??


"I did not say daily Bread was confession of sin,...Did I?"

Sir, you said, "Notice Jesus tells us to ask for daily bread in the prayer. If your asking for daily bread, and daily bread only lasts one day, is it not fair to assume this prayer should be said everyday? If we are to pray this way everyday, wouldnt confession of sin be done everyday too?


---john9346 on 3/2/18


kath4454:

Luke was not commenting on Mark_Eaton's scriptural correctness, nor being "swayed by every wind of doctrine". In particular, he said, "I do not agree many times". He was just answering Mark_Eaton's question to all bloggers.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/18


Wow, so now that Luke endorses Universalism, we should all praise God for how Mark_Eaton has changed Luke the Calvinists mind that not just the Elect, but EVERYONE in the end is going be saved. OR if you take John the Calvinist's definition of Universalism ( not sure anymore since a NEW definition has been introduced) is that EVERYONE is called and EVERYONE has an opportunity to accept Jesus, which John the Calvinist is against THAT as well.

So Bravo Luke.....you really are tossed and turned by every wind of doctrine That comes along here yourself. Maybe there is hope for you yet. So, does that mean you're NOT going to,continue pushing Calvinism Luke? GREAT! THank you Mark_Eaton.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/18


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Luke , I do think your words to Mark_Eaton are very nice. It shows that others who don't believe in Calvinism, YOU can actually be nice to them. And it shows there are others here who don't hold to Calvinism or believe in it, but you will never challenge THEM like you and John do others? Is there a reason for this? I believe it's important we all know YOUR criteria for who you challenge and who you don't . So in other words YOUR personal feelings decide? And is that scriptural? Just wondering. So your posts here are actually based on your carnal emotions and not coming from the Lord, who has no respect of persons? Is that correct?

Even thou you've been gone for a while, Changing your name does not change your character.
---kath4454 on 3/2/18


Mark E, I have followed your answers and many others for many years. I take breaks because I am very busy and come back and you are still here. You are a great brother in Christ. You are always curtious, you speak what you understand from Scripture. I do not agree many times, but that is Ok, at least we can talk with kind words not insults. Thanks for defending the faith with what you understand from the Word of God.
---Luke on 3/1/18


My response was to this Strongaxe..I found it offensive.

/////
JESUS SHEEP ONLY HEAR HIS VOICE. WE DONT FOLLOW THE VOICE OF STRANGERS...
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

Okay.

Prove to me you are a Jesus sheep. Prove to me you are hearing the voice of Jesus and not your own voice.

As James would say, "show me your faith and I will show you my works".

Tell me what you do to demonstrate the characteristics of Jesus, which you are supposed to be conformed into.

Tell me what you do to manifest the fruit of the Spirit into your life and others.

Tell me about the love you show to others that they will glorify our Father in Heaven.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/18
---kathr4453 on 3/1/18


So Strongaxe, it just went south from there. I have a right to my beliefs. I never said for Mark_Eaton to follow my voice either. He attacked me...and I judged him with the same judgement....but showed him how shameful such a judgement was in the first place.

Why do some people only see what THEY want to see?

John also attacked me with issues having NOTHING to,do with Calvinism...out of hate.

So if I've been testy with these two they started it.

Humility is not letting people walk on you. It is OK to stand up for yourself.

Discussion is CLOSED. Either you get it or not.
---kath4454 on 3/1/18


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kathr4453:

You asked Mark_Eaton about examples of his fruit. He asked all bloggers for their opinions. You then accused him of asking for flattery and of pride.

Far from "asking for flattery", he relied on the Biblical "by their fruits you will know them". He let others speak for him, rather than boasting for himself (another Biblical yardstick).

I know he and I have not always agreed here, but his responses have always been fair and level-headed.

I'd always thought that yours were too, although recently, some of your responses seem to have gotten a bit heated (like the ones referenced here). Is everything all right?
---StrongAxe on 2/28/18


mark_eaton ask, "To all bloggers: please tell me what you think of my behavior, my love, my character, and my witness in these blogs."

Mark, I can say I have enjoyed our dialog I love the passion you bring when ever you and I have debated. Thank you for being so passionate,yet, so respectful at the same time...

Again, thank you sir...
---john9346 on 2/28/18


I believe scripture itself shows a Triune God, and that it never NEEDED to be developed in the first place. And there seems to have been many put to death over this developed doctrine by man that seemed to have many different developed doctrinal angles to it.

I believe in the Triune God, yet everything I believe about the Triune God is right there in scripture.

Actually none of the Apostles EVER taught any DOCTRINE on the Trinity.

And believing in a Trinity is not salvation...

Believing Jesus Christ the Word of God made flesh to die for our sin, and raised again for our justification and salvation is the CENTRAL FOCAL POINT FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION. Everything else is a fillabuster.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/18


Multitudes were saved long before Constantine's developed doctrine of the Trinity.

Trinity "decided" by trial and error:
The adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . .
Because of false teachers who QUESTIONED the NATURE of Jesus Christ, from the time of Paul. Some said He is an Angel, A myth, A Spirit, A man only.....Etc etc. Yet St. John Chapter 1 clearly tell us who Jesus Christ is

In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God, and the WORD was made flesh. We also have Prophecy regarding the promised Messiah.

Those who DENY the DEITY OF CHRIST are still with us today...
---kath4453 on 2/26/18


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Some how St. Polycarp's writings wouldn't be needed...
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/25/18

I think the biggest legacy of the church fathers is the Trinity.

The church fathers fought against heresy after heresy and still developed the truth of the Trinity, which is largely ignored today.

I think it was Karl Rahner who said that if the Trinity was removed from our theology, that we would hardly notice.

How little we pay attention to the deepest truth about our God!

And yet the church fathers were fascinated with it and fought for it.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/26/18


I've said nothing about not needing anyone. The Body of Christ is equipped with everyone having spiritual gifts Ephesians 4...and that is for the purpose of the BOC not being tossed around by every wind of doctrine that comes along. We do need each other.

Every AGE God has equipped the Church...His Body and we do need each other.

Here's the problem....we have early church fathers who were Gnostics, Universalists, Calvinists etc.....IS EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE that we have here tossing everyone around...and using the Early Church Fathers as their go to back up person.

I said I DONT NEED THEM.

Jesus is HEAD of the Church...His Body where all TRUTH FLOWS DOWN FROM.

No one wants to defend THAT TRUTH....WHY?
---kathr4453 on 2/26/18


ark, many people believe they do not need anyone after they have gotten to a certain point in their spiritual life.

Many have forgotten someone taught them about the Bible in the first place.

They don't realize that the one who taught them the Bible were taught by someone else who might have studied the Fathers of the Church.
Their knowledge was handed down to them without that fact them being aware.

We believe we can trust our own judgment in interpreting the Bible. Our Prayers are enough.

Studying and taking advice even from the Fathers of the Church are NOT needed.

Some how St. Polycarp's writings wouldn't be needed even though he happened to be the Disciple of John who was the Disciple of Jesus.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/25/18


mark, I know the truth hurts, and with that honesty I can see you dont feel the love. However I believe LOVE is telling the truth....so much so that one will make enemies, just as Jesus and Paul and all the apostles did...even with those who professed to be christians.

You started attacking my faith Mark....then as I continued to stand my ground, you began attacking me. Then you ask others to compare your so called love to mine, and asked others to pat you on the back...

Thats disgusting Mark....again you have set yourself up as judge and jury....Thats not LOVE.

Sorry the truth hurts. those who "LOVE" tell the truth.....no matter what the cost. AND THIS LOVE (look it up in the original) is not HUMAN LOVE.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/18


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And my final word to you Mark_Eaton, ..inviting others to take part in your online FOOD FIGHT..( just a nice way of saying attack,) to gang up on another is NOT LOVE under any circumstance....and that's the part of you here that bothers me the most.

Let's stick to discussing scripture.

I'd love to see you DEFEND THE CROSS, the way Paul did, before he was beheaded and NO ONE STOOD WITH HIM.

You try it Mark_Eaton FIRST before sitting in judgement of others ....and see what it's like to be hated for the preaching of the CROSS. It's really funny that when I DO, then attacks like yours and John's come out in full force. That's no coincidence.
---kathr453 on 2/25/18


Nicole, thank you for that information. That was fabulous. I never knew this and I know many probably don't either. AWESOME INFO.

MY prayers are too with Cluny ....I'm so sorry to hear. It would be nice if CN had some sort of a gofundme link for our disfunctional family here online...because no matter what....we all do love and care about one another.
Maybe something for CN to think about.

Again thanks Nicole.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/18


making yourself equal to God...
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18

I wondered how you would slander me and turn this challenge against me.

You have proven to all here you have no love for anyone but yourself. You do not want to hear honest feedback from the BOC. You will not submit yourself to any authority or each other. You are unteachable.

Your dogma and doctrine are useless if you have no love. You have missed that our God is love, other-centered self-giving love. Our God wants us, the BOC, to become that love for everyone else on the planet. You show the world that the BOC does not care for itself, and in so doing, that God does not care for them.

Your "good works" do not glorify our Father in Heaven.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/25/18


StrongAxe, thank you for the update of Cluny. I just read it today.

Broken ribs are the worst bones to break because it hurts every time you breathe.

I hope he was given pain medication and an incentive inspirometer.

Please tell him it is very important to use the incentive inspirometer because it prevents him from developing pneumonia or other respiratory problems.

Usually people with broken ribs try to breathe per minutes as least as possible due to the pain and end up with pneumonia. Pain meds and IC helps to prevent pneumonia.

My prayers are with him.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/24/18


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Mark_Eaton....asking for flattery is so unbecoming of a Christian. And to argue that your behavior somehow needs to be compared to others you don't approve of is also unbecoming of a CHristian.

Being a suck up agreeing with everyone, even if it's not scriptural shows you want the admiration of man and not the approval of God.

You seem to think because you may not approve of someone that God doesn't either.....making yourself equal to God.

Enough already Mark_Eaton. Self imposed humility is actually PRIDE. Maybe some can't see that , but others can.

We don't judge ourselves by measuring ourselves to others....just another show of carnal behavior.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18


Mark_Eaton, these verses are what I'm talking about. There's also a double standard going on here....you continue to subtly insult and judge me, and when I confront you...you scream foul. With your last post, let's let the Word of God do the judging OK. The Lord taught me a long long time ago not to worry one iota what men think of me. If I'm proclaiming the truth, it WILL OFFEND. That's a given.and I don't apologize.


John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---kath453 on 2/23/18


how can you PROVE your fruit is OF GOD when you argue against the very scriptures that are of God?
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18

First, only YOU think I argue against the Scriptures that are from God. No one else has ever accused me of that.

Second, the only other name I have been called in these blogs is a Trinitarian. Another badge of honor. Trinity is the deepest truth of our God and I am glad they have revealed this to us.

Third, our witness here in these blogs tells the truth of our fruit. I challenge you to ask those here what they think of your love, character, and your witness.

To all bloggers: please tell me what you think of my behavior, my love, my character, and my witness in these blogs.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/23/18


Mark_Eaton, please give us an example of your fruit that cannot be imitated by Satan or self effort? OUR FRUIT is that TRUTH that has been WROUGHT IN US, meaning, it does not come through head knowledge or good works, but by the fellowship of His sufferings. It's HIS LIFE in us, alone with The KNOWLEDGE of HIM..you deny...and would rather turn to man.

When someone denies the crucified life and goes to self help meetings instead....that is NOT FRUIT....and anyone can benefit from that. Walking as a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST, crucified to this world as well....yet, you want to change the world....and not come out of it.
so tell us .......how can you PROVE your fruit is OF GOD when you argue against the very scriptures that are of God?
---kathr4453 on 2/23/18


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I can't believe Mark_Eaton states we need the Church fathers to explain the Apostles writings
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

This is a false statement.

I have never said, and will never say that.

Now, you call me a Gnostic. Do you even know what Gnostics are? Only by reading the church fathers would you know what they are.

Do you have any clue why it was a badge of honor to be called a universalist by you?

"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/23/18


Mark states I do not read the Church Fathers "Carefully."

read below see if statement is true.


Mark_eaton you cited, "Justin Martyr's 2 Apology ch 7."

Sir, have you read ch 7 of Justin's second Apology?? he's actually teaching "Predestination." as well as the Doctrine of Total Inability.

Here's the opening, "Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits
---john9346 on 2/22/18


here's another read below to see if statement is true.

Mark_eaton you cited, "Ignatius (Epistle to the Magnesians)

Sir, have you read the context of this quote??

Actually, Ignatius isn't even addressing the matter of predestination and election in ch 5, ch 5 is addressing the fact whether someone is a Christian or not they will both die, everyone has an end.

---john9346 on 2/22/18


(BTW, last week, Cluny fell and broke a rib and some bones in his hand, and is asking for prayer.)
---StrongAxe on 2/22/18

Thank you for the update.

I will pray and ask my prayer network to also pray for Cluny.

I enjoy the book of James. Boldness, confidence, and practicality are what we see in that book. James was unafraid to tell people that your faith is dead without works.

I too like to see our faith lived out in the arena (as TR said) where it matters most. While I would not like to lose my reward, I am unafraid of showing people my works. Our fruit is all the world has to see.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/23/18


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Mark_Eaton:

You asked: Tell me what you do to manifest the fruit of the Spirit into your life and others.
(and several other similar things).

This can be a dangerous question to answer, as anyone who boasts of his deeds here on earth receives his rewards on earth, and loses his rewards in heaven. Many would prefer to be silent and not do that.

(BTW, last week, Cluny fell and broke a rib and some bones in his hand, and is asking for prayer.)
---StrongAxe on 2/22/18


Mark_Eaton, No thanks Mark....even I am not so arrogant to make such statements to another. When we hear TRUTH we KNOW it's TRUTH...regardless....I don't examine your personality before I DECIDE whether you are telling the truth or not. Just another false presupposition on your part......

So where did you get that IDEA...the Church Fathers???

And don't confuse confidence and boldness with whatever you decide. I may not find you qualified to JUDGE anyone....so don't even try.

Judge not lest he be judged. And who are you to judge another man's servant? God said that....

I never asked you to follow me or hear MY voice in the first place....I said Those who belong to Jesus HEAR HIS VOICE.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18


JESUS SHEEP ONLY HEAR HIS VOICE. WE DONT FOLLOW THE VOICE OF STRANGERS...
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18

Okay.

Prove to me you are a Jesus sheep. Prove to me you are hearing the voice of Jesus and not your own voice.

As James would say, "show me your faith and I will show you my works".

Tell me what you do to demonstrate the characteristics of Jesus, which you are supposed to be conformed into.

Tell me what you do to manifest the fruit of the Spirit into your life and others.

Tell me about the love you show to others that they will glorify our Father in Heaven.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/18


Mark_Eaton, just because I don't have to study the so called early church fathers to KNOW the Lord, and KNOW the Gospel, and KNOW doctrine, doesn't make me a lone wolf or easily led by false teachers.Its just the opposite....

Now I should be angry with such an accusation, but because I'm secure in my faith and at peace with the Lord, and know not all men have such peace with God I'll give you a pass Mark_Eaton. I see your ignorance causes you to make such ignorant statements. People follow false teachers BECAUSE JESUS SHEEP ONLY HEAR HIS VOICE. WE DONT FOLLOW THE VOICE OF STRANGERS. HERE's the Problem Mark.....YOU simply do not believe the Word of God....that's YOUR problem....not mine.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/18


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we need the Church fathers to explain the Apostles writings,
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18

I have read. You and John do not read carefully. I said I have not read them ALL and I use other people's analysis on the ones I have NOT read.

I understand your lone wolf approach. All you need is the Bible, God, and He will teach you everything you need.

Pardon me if I disagree. Did the Spirit teach you English? to Write? to Read? to Speak?

The lone wolf approach has created many false prophets. People like Joseph Smith, David Koresh, even Ellen White. They studied the Bible without anyone questioning their understanding.

I speak of unity to remind you that the BOC is connected to each other.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/18


I can't believe Mark_Eaton states we need the Church fathers to explain the Apostles writings, YET has not read or even KNOW what they do and do not teach and believe. Some were Gnostics , some universalists, some Calvinists, infant baptism vs believers baptism, Mary worship vs NOT....Law vs Grace....and so much more. PICK who you want according to your already established beliefs is what most do. And that proves nothing. Of absolute TRUTH. The TRUTH is in Jesus....He is the WAY TRUTH AND LIFE.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18


strongaxe said, "
That's not the point. If you quote Ignatius to prove a point, how do we know Ignatius is, in fact, scripturally sound? His opinions are not scripture, so not inherently infallible, any more than yours or mine."

Sir, first, the context of this conversation was that I was answering Brendan and Mark's Challenge to me that the Church Fathers believed and taught predestination and election.

Next, I responded by providing 2 fathers who did believe and taught Election and Predestination.

Thirdly, you objected and I corrected you by challenging you to read the context of Ignatius's Quote.
---john9346 on 2/21/18


strongaxe said, "If you NEED Ignatius to prove your point, then scripture is NOT SUFFICIENT, but NEEDS a third party's opinion (i.e. Ignatius's) to give it legitimacy - thus undermining your Sola Scriptura argument."

False, this is a matter of "Confirmation." not, "A Matter of Faith and Practice."

Sir, your problems are you don't understand Sola Scriptura and you don't understand the context of my conversation with Mark and Brendan leading to stating Ignatius...

Strongaxe, stop trying to use Scripture against me because according to you Scripture is no different then the Koran, Vedas, etc...
---john9346 on 2/21/18


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If you NEED Ignatius to prove your point, then scripture is NOT SUFFICIENT, but NEEDS a third party's opinion (i.e. Ignatius's) to give it legitimacy - thus undermining your Sola Scriptura argument.

I am not saying Ignatius is wrong - only that your argument cannot RELY on his opinion.
---StrongAxe on 2/21/18

Brilliant...but this is what I've been saying to John all along...he talks Sola yet denies it in action. So confusing.

I can find anyone to agree with me....but that means ZILCH. HIs writings are nothing but COMMENTARY, it is NOT the word of God. Don't put your trust in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/18


mark_eaton said, "John, I am sorry but these fathers did not teach unconditional predestination of the elect."

Sir, just keep reading and studying and always remember context is key.

mark_eaton said, "However, I must confess that I have not read all the church fathers. I rely on writings from authors who have read the works I have not."

Then upon your own confession you really don't know what the fathers did or didn't say. appreciate your honesty sir...

I'm a student of Church History i have been studying now in about my Third year.

I'm reform in theology baptist in tradition.
---john9346 on 2/21/18


john9346:

That's not the point. If you quote Ignatius to prove a point, how do we know Ignatius is, in fact, scripturally sound? His opinions are not scripture, so not inherently infallible, any more than yours or mine.

If you then need to quote someone else (e.g. XYZ) to prove Ignatius correct, why not just quote XYZ to prove your point and skip Ignatius altogether? Quoting Ignatius as a middle step does not help prove your point.

If you NEED Ignatius to prove your point, then scripture is NOT SUFFICIENT, but NEEDS a third party's opinion (i.e. Ignatius's) to give it legitimacy - thus undermining your Sola Scriptura argument.

I am not saying Ignatius is wrong - only that your argument cannot RELY on his opinion.
---StrongAxe on 2/21/18


compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect...To the predestined ones..."
---john9346 on 2/20/18

John, I am sorry but these fathers did not teach unconditional predestination of the elect.

We can banter these quotes back and forth until we occupy all the blogs.

None of the fathers were Calvinists, and none of the fathers were Arminians.

In reading them, it seems they believed in both man's free-will and God's sovereignty.

But the first church father to exhibit Calvinist teachings was Augustine.

However, I must confess that I have not read all the church fathers. I rely on writings from authors who have read the works I have not.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/21/18


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strongaxe ask, "So what? Ignatius is not scripture, so what he writes is his personal opinion, not the Word of God. It may be a good, well-informed opinion, but an opinion nonetheless, just like your opinion or my opinion."

But if ones opinion is Scripturally sound, Christ Exalting, and God glorifying then its fact not an opinion...
---john9346 on 2/20/18


strongaxe said, "If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you should not require ANYONE'S statement outside of scripture to confirm it. To do so is to admit that Scriptura isn't really Sola after all."

False, what Ignatius said he said because of "Sola Scriptura."

Each time you attack Sola Scriptura in our debates you clearly demonstrate you do not understand "Sola Scriptura"...

Strongaxe, its illogical to attack something that is not the thing you have the goal of attacking. Its like me attacking an apple tree because I hate Orange trees...
---john9346 on 2/20/18


Monk Brendan and Mark_eaton

see fathers taught predestination and election.




"Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1



"To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father."

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)

Council of Ephesus and Orange also upheld what would become Calvinism...

---john9346 on 2/17/18




---john9346 on 2/20/18


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