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Forgive Their Sins

Can someone please tell me how did Jesus expected the Disciples to forgive or NOT forgive sins if 'mind reading' powers wasn't included?

John 20:19-23

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 3/17/18
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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Now, that you are aware that the word 'Roman' offends me, it is too much to STOP saying it?

This directly contradicts your prior claim that I'm making an issue of this because I'm angry, because you've just admitted that this bothers YOU. I'm also curious why a term that YOUR OWN CHURCH has used to describe itself, and continues to use, offends you? Nevertheless, since you have expressed your distaste for it, you may have noticed that I have only been using the word "Roman" in conjunction with "Catholic" here when it was necessary to do so (e.g. when quoting, or for disambiguation).
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18


Mark, we are to rightly divide the word of Truth. I also don't adhear to the LAW either, even though it's in Scripture. Jesus also told the Apostles not to go to the Gentiles but ONLY to Israel....

I don't have to worry about the sabbath Matthew 24-25 and I won't have to RUN and take flight either.

When reading scripture always ask:

Who...was God talking to
What.. was He talking about
When....in the dispensation of Time was He talking about...as I said....the CHURCH does not have to take flight and hide from the wrath to come.

So NO, not all scripture applies to us.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Here are words from a Catholic who does refer to the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic...and WHY he does

I use it simply in the sense that we are bound together in submission to the Pope, the Bishop of Rome. And since other religious leaders like Pope Shenouda also bear the title of Pope, even simply referring to him under that title can lead to confusion.

And if one says simply Catholic, numerous Christian groups also lay claim to that title who ARENT bound in submission to Benedict XVI, so it can also be confusing!
---kathr453 on 4/5/18


Mark, I'm a dispensationalists ...not a HYPER dispensationalists ...and I do not believe the Church is Israel. And if one truly KNOWS GRACE plus nothing, one would see Matthew is talking to Israel and its not GRACE but Kingdom LAW. Even Matthew 24-25 address Israel....of Gods coming wrath, and hope it doesn't happen on the sabbath....clearly is NOT to the CHURCH who is not under any sabbath requirement or fear of Gods wrath.

TODAY under GRACE we are crucified with Christ and raised up together with Him a NEW CREATURE, who does NOT have to cut off anything or poke out anything to ENTER IN. WE enter in a NEW and LIVING WAY.....through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH....AKA I am crucified with Christ. Hebrews 10.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


StrongAxe: Calling something a slur means you are offended by it. People have been using the term RCC on these blogs for years without any negative comment from anyone until now.//


Now, that you are aware that the word 'Roman' offends me, it is too much to STOP saying it?

I knew it wasn't correct but it didn't bother me until I realize how some people on CN viewed the word.

I know Kathr doesn't care, but can you stop?

//So can we move on already?
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18

YES, because if you either you stop or not at least I made you aware how much the word insults me.

It's up to you to continue to use the word or not.

I am FINISHED with topic.

On to other colorful debates with you :D
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/5/18




I don't live in Matthew. I believe it's teachings are for the 1000 year reign, where one must pluck out an eye or cut off a hand to enter in...
---kathr4453 on 4/4/18

I cannot believe you said this.

Are you saying the words of Jesus are not for today or yesterday?

It seems to me that you are dividing the Bible as others have done, in a way that suits yourself. Looking at the book of Matthew as being destined for someone else, allows you to not pay attention to what it says. It allows you to pick and choose what you will or will not believe.

Are you sure you want to do this? How do you defend your statement?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/5/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: NO, if is as if it a chef taught you how to cook meals.
If you make a dish and called it 'rib's cuts'.


If the best chef in the world taught me how to cook, and the quotes my rib recipe without any critical comment in a message that he sends to the whole world, one should assume that he approves of it.

you are the one UPSET because I simply asked you all to stop calling us 'Roman'.

I am not upset. YOU are upset. Earlier you said: RCC are slur initials. Calling something a slur means you are offended by it. People have been using the term RCC on these blogs for years without any negative comment from anyone until now.

So can we move on already?
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18


StrongAxe: Therefore, if the Magisterium says Roman Catholic, and the Holy See gave it authority to say so, doesn't that mean that the term is authorized by the Holy See?//

NO, if is as if it a chef taught you how to cook meals.
If you make a dish and called it 'rib's cuts'.
Does that mean you need authorization to name EVERY dish from your Chief?

//Why are you choking on this tiny gnat?//

ME ???

My friend you are the one UPSET because I simply asked you all to stop calling us 'Roman'.

You always complain about the 125 word max on CN. This mover would have you.

BUT NOOOO. You had to prove me wrong and COULDN'T about the Holy See/Vacation agrees with me. Catholic
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/4/18


I believe we all need to be careful of TRADITIONS that claim such outlandish false teachings, and rather than addressing it by its name...BLASPHEMY, it's now called pre-reformation traditions. How sweet is that. How many millions over the centuries were murdered because of your pre-reformation TRADITIONS? The Reformation put somewhat of an END to these murderous TRADITIONS. This is not a tradition of what color shoes you can wear on Easter. DAHHHHHH!

So telling others they don't have a VALID Priesthood is saying they do not have a VALID faith. Sorry, but that's not "TRADITION" but condemnation. That's just blatant judgement YOU all have judged others by, yet get all twisted up in your robes when put in your place.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Amen Kathr4453, your post concerning this subject is in accordance with scripture as I have come to understand them. I stand in complete agreement.
---josef on 4/5/18




Monk I posted from your doctrine. It states only special priests can do that....yet now Cluny states the Holy Spirit does that....yet I can find no scripture addressing this issue. It is something you all made up...as there is no such thing as an earthly priesthood in the BOC. The earthly priesthood ended with the the old covenant, when we died to the law. The ONLY Priesthood is the very person of Jesus Christ...and no one stands in His stead as head of the Church. No human can forgive sin, except towards one another when offended. David said, to GOD ALONE have I sinned....therefore only God can forgive our sins that are against Him, which is EVERY SIN. Our relationship with the Lord is VERY PERSONAL. WE don't need a middleman.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/18


Kathr4453 said, "...the kind not in scripture were only SPECIAL priests can turn crackers into GOD and stand as GOD Himself while administering GOD. Are you saying ALL CHristians have this power and authority?"

You totally misunderstand me, Kathr, which is, of course, what you always do.

Any priest from a Pre-Reformation Church can change BREAD (not crackers) and WINE into the BODY and BLOOD of Jesus Christ. This is not just a Roman Catholic THINGY, your misunderstanding is a Protestant THINGY, and I am not going to discuss this any more until you learn to be more respectful of the Pre-Reformation Churches and our traditions.

After all, if I have to respect YOUR traditions, then you must respect mine.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/4/18


Well Monk, you are on the other thread correct, where Nicole stated we don't have a valid priesthood...the kind not in scripture were only SPECIAL priests can turn crackers into GOD and stand as GOD Himself while administering GOD. Are you saying ALL CHristians have this power and authority?

If so..show where ordinary people can change crackers into GOD....and act as GOD as head of the CHURCH at that time.

Here's the FACTS Monk, because of JESUS death and resurrection HE ALONE won that right and PRIVLEDGE to be Head of the Church, the Head of HIS BODY where believers are baptized INTO CHRIST.

Any other teaching is anti_Christ.

If not, then Nicole is saying priests are above Christians.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/18


Monk, secondly, I don't live in Matthew. I believe it's teachings are for the 1000 year reign, where one must pluck out an eye or cut off a hand to enter in. They are not entering in Christ...but an earthly kingdom where Kingdom LAW will rule.

My sins are forgiven period. GOd does not take away that forgivness based on what I do or don't do...I cannot EARN forgivness. I RECEIVE IT ...It's a GIFT. GIFTS are unconditional. This age of GRACE is not of works, but faith in the finished WORKS OF CHRIST ALONE.

Secondly, the Puritans yes tried to run England and they got the boot. They came here and turned MA into a religious legalistic witch hunting state ended in shame....FREEDOM WON OUT.
---kathr453 on 4/4/18


Nicole_Lacey:

The Holy See gives the Magisterium authority to teach. It has officially used the term Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, if the Magisterium says Roman Catholic, and the Holy See gave it authority to say so, doesn't that mean that the term is authorized by the Holy See?

Why are you choking on this tiny gnat? The Pharisees made similar meaningless distinctions (e.g. saying oaths sworn on the alter were binding but oaths sworn on the temple were not). Jesus said such differences were silly and meaningless.

NO, esp. if it is in error!

A pope would NOT quote a cardinal specifically teaching error, without correcting that error.
---StrongAxe on 4/3/18


kathr4355 said, "Again, Nicole places catholic priests above Christians."

She did not. Nicole is using her place IN the RCC to state clearly what she believes.

"Only God can forgive sins, resulting in either someone's salvation or relationship with the Lord."

Oh? Do you really mean to say that? Because if you really mean it, then nobody has any responsibility for ANY sin whatsoever, and we are all dead in our sins, and we will die and go to hell.

And what about this? Matt 6:14 says, For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

If we can't forgive sins, as you stated, then God cannot forgive us.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/3/18


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Kathr4453 said, " When America was founded, it was founded on FREEDOM FROM RELIGION, which was the RCC AND OR THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND , and even Calvinist's who tried to take over in England."

Wrong again! The Pilgrims came from England for freedom from religious persecution. But once they set up their colony, the colony was PURITAN and incredibly narrow in their Christian walk.

For instance, one examination of sin was for the accused to recite (from memory) the Ten Commandments. If the victim (oops, accused) missed one, they had sin in that area, and they were probed to uncover that sin. Usually the probing hurt.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/3/18


StrongAxe: The MAGISTERIUM (i.e. the ultimate teaching authority in the church) used that term in 1950, so "NEVER" is incorrect. If you won't believe them, who WILL you believe?---StrongAxe on 4/1/18

The word 'Magisterium' isn't interchangeable with 'Holy See'

Vatican and Holy See are interchangeable words.

As you said the word Magisterium means the AUTHORITY to teach.

The power is given by the Holy See.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/3/18


So according to Nicole, saying Roman Catholic Church is like calling the RCC the "N" word. Amazing.

And in the Baptist Church, not only pastors but the congregation believe in the INDIVIDUAL PRIESTHOOD OF EACH BELIEVER, defining a very defined line between its beliefs and the RCC....who do not. So YES Cardinals do speak FOR THE RCC, in comparison that no Baptist speaks for the Baptist Church, but for their own beliefs, as no two Baptist Churches are identical in beliefs. Some are Calvinist's, some are NOT, ( big difference) and we don't have a POPE who heads up all Baptist's. Some Baptist's even worship on Saturday.

Nicole does not know what she is talking about. Just dribble dribble dribble.
---kathr4453 on 4/3/18


StrongAxe: is a Cardinal permitted to speak on behalf of the church or not?//

NO, esp. if it is in error!

So am I to believe the Florida crazy Baptist Pastor speaks for all Baptists?

Why can't you accept that the Holy See never called Herself 'Roman'?

No difference when some Black people calls other Black people the 'N' word.

Does that make it okay for everyone to call Black people the 'N' word? Of course not.

Wrong is wrong.

//If a Cardinal came up to your front door and made some kind of religious pronouncement, would you tell him to get lost,//

No, I wouldn't be that rude, but I have corrected a Priest and would do the same to a Cardinal.

Can you not correct your Pastor?
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/2/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

The Pope was quoting a CARDINAL. Tell me, is a Cardinal permitted to speak on behalf of the church or not? If a Cardinal came up to your front door and made some kind of religious pronouncement, would you tell him to get lost, because you won't believe it unless it comes directly from the Pope's lips?

I said that the Holy See has NEVER called Herself 'Roman' Catholic Church.

The MAGISTERIUM (i.e. the ultimate teaching authority in the church) used that term in 1950, so "NEVER" is incorrect. If you won't believe them, who WILL you believe?
---StrongAxe on 4/1/18


Kathr: Empty nothing except in Nicole's mind. Some think she is possibly OFF, but I believe it's more intentional. Just another narcissist..anyone defending Nicole's stance here, but actually the opposite. Then her other blogs intentionally feeding into Haz27..
Please get these people off, so others can debate CHRISTIANITY.---kathr4453

I see you BELIEVE in the 1st Amendment. NOT!

You did! I tried to give you another chance, but you can't help yourself.

Why would you try to get other people kick off CN?

That's just plain hateful!

I will NEVER respond to you again.

Please do NOT address me again.

Happy Easter. May God bless you with a happy life.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/1/18


Kathr, I am the one saying you SHOULDN'T call people outside their names. You FORGOT your own debate.

StrongAxe, the Pope was quoting the Saint about another issue NOT about calling the Church Roman.

We are debating whether the Holy See calls HERSELF 'Roman' or not.

I said that the Holy See has NEVER called Herself 'Roman' Catholic Church.

You and others said yes She has named Herself 'Roman'.

Hierarchy isn't about authority but Fullness of the Priesthood.

The Bishop has complete authority of Graces from Jesus in that he can ordain others into the Priesthood.

A Priest can not ordain another priest.

Bishops-Pope have the same fullness of Priesthood. Hierarchy of order and of Jurisdiction.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/1/18


Nicole_Lacey:

He quoted a CARDINAL AND SAINT to prove his point. Why would he do that, if the cardinal was teaching something in error? A cardinal should have some idea of what he is talking about, and he should have authority to say what he says. If a cardinal came to your house, and said something religious, would you say "I won't believe you unless I hear it from the lips of the Pope himself"?

You're Catholic. You should know how hierarchy works. Priests receive authority to teach on divine matters from bishops, bishops from cardinals, cardinals from the Pope, and the Pope from God. (Forgive me if I left out any, but you get the idea).
---StrongAxe on 3/29/18


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Nicole, why then is it OK for YOU to decide what SDA'S do or do not want to be called. Please take your own advice first before giving out hypocritical advice. So in the future please don't make comments that SDA's don't want to be called Saturday Adventist, since YOU ARE NOT ONE, and have no right to speak for them, and you'll find others won't need to correct YOU. NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
---kathr4453 on 3/29/18


Kathr, it isn't NICE to tell me what another group will or not mind to be called. If you are NOT a SDA please DO NOT speak for them. They can speak for themselves.

StrongAxe, please go back in DIVINI ILLIUS MAGISTRI and READ Paragraph 54 again.

The Holy See (Vatican) DID NOT called themselves Roman Catholic. The Pope was quoting St. Charles Borromeo from his 'The Christian Education of Youth. (37).

When the Vatican QUOTES someone they DO NOT CHANGE, ADD OR DELETE a word or words.

In fact you will see BEFORE paragraph 54 and AFTER the Pope DOES NOT USE the word 'Roman' BEFORE Catholic.

So again, PLEASE find a Pope or from the CCC calling Her Roman Catholic.

Orthodox isn't the Holy See
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/29/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: DIVINI ILLIUS MAGISTRI: ... Read your citations.

I did. Paragraph 54: ... This follows of necessity because in the City of God, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, ...

So again, please only cite the Holy See Vatican.va or CCC to correct me.
1) Go to the Vatican official web site (vatican.va)
2) Go to the search bar. Search for: Roman Catholic
3) Click fourth hit: "Conclusion of the II Vatican Council: Joint Catholic-Orthodox ..."
4) 1st paragraph includes the phrase "fraternal relations thus taken up between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Constantinople."

There are hundreds of examples, this is just one obvious one.
---StrongAxe on 3/29/18


What I find really sad is how CN has been taken over by these nonsense posts and also becoming political. This is what TROLLS do. Take conversations and take them over and turn them into nonsense. It's a nothing burger. Empty nothing except in Nicole's mind. Some think she is possibly OFF, but I believe it's more intentional. Just another narcissist that seems to be what this world is encouraging more and more.

I don't see anyone defending Nicole's stance here, but actually the opposite. Then her other blogs intentionally feeding into Haz27 constant offensive blanket blasting offensive name calling, also having nothing to do with Christianity.

Please get these people off, so others can debate CHRISTIANITY.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/18


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Seventh Day Adventist would not mind being called Saturday Adventist. They believe Saturday is the Sabbath day. So all these excuses of why Nicole is offended by the words ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH is something only in Nicole's head. I asked this to my Catholic friends and showed them this thread and they just scratched their heads. To them, it defines the church.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/18


StongAxe, thanks for giving your citations. But they PROVE my point.

Even the TITLE doesn't use the 'Roman' in from of Catholic.

***DIVINI ILLIUS MAGISTRI

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON CHRISTIAN EDUCATION
TO THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES, ARCHBISHOPS,
BISHOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION
WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE AND TO ALL THE FAITHFUL OF THE CATHOLIC WORLD

The only time the word 'Rome' was used is the end which states "Given in Rome,... Pope XI....."

Read your citations.

So again, please only cite the Holy See Vatican.va or CCC to correct me.

SDA would NOT like if I said Saturday Adventist

It still means the same worship day.

Do you understand now?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/28/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Wikipedia - Roman Catholic (term):

Throughout the years, in various instances, official church documents have used both the terms "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church" to refer to the worldwide church as a whole

the Advanced Catechism Of Catholic Faith And Practice states that the term Roman is used within the name of the church to emphasize that the center of unity is the Roman See.

official documents such as Divini Illius Magistri, Humani generis, a declaration of 23 November 2006 and another of 30 November 2006, ... do use "Roman Catholic" to speak of it as a whole without distinguishing one part from the rest.

(etc.)
---StrongAxe on 3/28/18


Is it OFFENSIVE to say the Roman Catholic Church? That's what it sounds like Nicole is saying. Asians don't like being called Orientals, and Blacks don't like the word Colored's. Native Americans don't like being called Indians. OK, because as time has gone on, ithese terns are considered offensive. So WHY is calling the Catholic Church , "Roman" Catholic Offensive?

There is an American Catholic Church, not affiliated with Rome, clergy can marry, and began around 1999. Technically they are not ROMAN CATHOLIC, yet still adhear to much of the Catholic doctrines.

But the issue isn't that of being OFFENDED if someone accidentally thought they were affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church.
---kathr4453 on 3/28/18


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StrongAxe: The term "Roman Catholic" is one that has ACTUALLY been used by the officials of the Catholic Church.//

That is WHAT I have been asking you for the last few days. 'OFFICIALS' of the Catholic Church it the HOLY SEE (VATICAN)

NOW PROVE IT!

//still a term officially recognized by the Church.//

PROVE IT!

//It is not as popular as it was 50-60 years ago, but it is still in use. Deal with it.//

Just as it ISN'T popular to call Black people 'color' as it was 50-60 years ago.

How come Black people do not have to deal with it but, Catholics have to DEAL WITH IT?

You need to examine yourself during this Holy Week.

You are NOT as opened minded as you want people to believe.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/28/18


Nicole_Lacey:

The term "Roman Catholic" is one that has ACTUALLY been used by the officials of the Catholic Church. It is still a term officially recognized by the Church. It is not as popular as it was 50-60 years ago, but it is still in use. Deal with it. "American Catholics" and "Catholics in America" on the other hand, are not official names of organizations. They are just descriptive terms for certain groups of people in certain places (e.g. Catholics in Chicago, Latinos in Delaware, Americans in Europe, etc.)
---StrongAxe on 3/27/18


What people WANT to be called has nothing to do with where someone / something originated. The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH does not hold power over kings and countries like it once did. But at one time even Kings had to answer to Rome....unless you fought for your independence. When America was founded, it was founded on FREEDOM FROM RELIGION, which was the RCC AND OR THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND , and even Calvinist's who tried to take over in England.

When Pediofiles in the Catholic Church came to light, the coverup went all the way up to the Pope....in ROME, or what many feel was the last buck...Now if they prefer to be called the Brotherhood of this or that, or the Magdeline Sisters....it matters not....it's ALL THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/18


ME: As I said before the American Catholics are not Catholics in America.

StrongAxe: Because they don't believe in a church FOUNDED in America. They DO believe in a church founded in ROME. Do you understand now?//

American Catholics' leader ISN'T Pope Francis.

Catholics in America and Mexico's leader is Pope Francis.

Just like PEOPLE keep calling NATIVE Americans INDIANS.

But the people original from here BEFORE you and I have came here have told us THEY RATHER be called Native Americans NOT Indians.

The people from INDIA want to be called INDIANS.

It doesn't matter what people DECIDE what they WANT to call you. You are the ONE who gets to DECIDE what you are called.

Now you do understand?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/27/18


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Isn't that WHY they claim Peter was in Rome? Why it's so important to their Church that they claim Peter was in Rome, who was their first Pope..and head of the Church and all that propaganda? And that has nothing to do with the Vatican being in its own country. Talk about deflecting Nicole.

Ok then, we can get back to the truth that Peter was never in Rome, or started the RCC, and that the whole of the RCC is Illititimate to this day. Yea...thanks Nicole for clarifying that for us.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/18


Nicole_Lacey:

That same article said that the last time the Magisterium used the term Roman Catholic was in 1950 (the point being that they DID ACTUALLY use that term). I just had to delete that due to the 125 word limit.

As I said before the American Catholics are not Catholics in America.

Because they don't believe in a church FOUNDED in America. They DO believe in a church founded in ROME. Do you understand now?
---StrongAxe on 3/26/18


StrongAxe: In the 21st century, the three terms "Catholic Church", "Roman Catholic Church" and "Holy Roman Catholic Church" continue to appear in various books and other publications.//

And in the 20th century there were Catholic who actually believed they are pro-choice Catholics.

It doesn't matter.

Again, I will ask you this question:

Please show where the Holy See (Vatican) called Herself 'Roman Catholic Church'?

As I said before the American Catholics are not Catholics in America.

Mexican Catholics are not Catholics in Mexico.

Understand?

That's why the Vatican doesn't say 'Roman' Catholic Church. It is limiting Herself.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/26/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Bishop, actually.

From Wikipedia "Roman Catholic (term)":

the first known occurrence of "Roman Catholic" as a synonym for "Catholic Church" was in communication with the Armenian Apostolic Church in 1208, after the EastWest Schism.

American Catholics, who by the year 1900 were 12 million people and had a predominantly Irish clergy, objected to what they considered the reproachful terms Popish and Romish and preferred the term Roman Catholic.

In the 21st century, the three terms "Catholic Church", "Roman Catholic Church" and "Holy Roman Catholic Church" continue to appear in various books and other publications.
---StrongAxe on 3/26/18


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StrongAxe: Cluny IS a clergyman//

Priest?

//it is his business to know the correct religious terms and how they are used.//

Why it is business? I asked him to cite the Holy See (Vatican) calling Her the Roman Catholic Church.

//Are you clergy?//

A Dominican Religious for 6 yrs. Dominicans are known for scholar studies

//The Vatican City is in the very CENTER of Rome.//

Vatican City is the SMALLEST Country in the world.

That's why when Pope Benedict XVI visited America he flew into Andrew's air force base

//Catholic clergy themselves often use the word Rome as a synonym for Vatican//

I have NEVER heard a Priest call exchange Vatican for Rome. NEVER. And I know many Priests.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/25/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Cluy IS a clergyman who is in communion with an Eastern rite Catholic church that is NOT the Roman Catholic Church, and it is his business to know the correct religious terms and how they are used. Are you clergy?

When I was growing up, our church was always referred to Roman Catholic. Plain "Catholic" was just an informal abbreviation.

google: Catholic Church

The Roman Catholic Church is the church that is lead by the Pope (AKA the Bishop of ROME) in the Vatican. There are other Catholic churches that are not, as Cluny mentioned.

The Vatican City is in the very CENTER of Rome. Catholic clergy themselves often use the word Rome as a synonym for Vatican. How can you not know this?
---StrongAxe on 3/25/18


Nicole, I have no idea what you are ranting about. I know what acts 5:1-4 says...they LIED to the Holy Spirit....period. Your added input changes NOTHING I said. So why do you think you always have to reword? Peter didnt say you lied to me or the other people. So it appears YOU needed extra instruction on the verse because YOU didn't get it in the first place.

The point WAS......even with that, Peter did not WITHHOLD forgivenesses. If you can FOCUS here Nicole....THAT was the context of what I was saying....not discussing the MOTIVE of why they lied. FOCUS NICOLE....FOCUS!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/18


Flavia Iulia Helena Augusta, was an Empress of the Roman Empire, and mother of Emperor Constantine the Great. Born the lowest of commoners, possibly in Drepana, Bithynia in Asia Minor, she became the consort of the future Roman Emperor Constantius Chlorus and the mother of the future Emperor Constantine the Great She ranks as an important figure in the history of Christianity and of the world due to her influence on her son. In her final years, she made a religious tour of Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem, during which she allegedly discovered the True Cross. Pious beliefs also associate her with the foundation of the Vatican Gardens
---kathr4454 on 3/25/18


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Kathr, I gave verses to you so you would NOT have to open your Bible. Either read your Bible or read my post AGAIN.

Peter used a VERB 'doing' and I put it in all caps for you.

That was the LIE to the Holy Spirit.

BTW, I ONLY quote on CN from a Protestant Bibles

As I see, I am the one giving you Scripture verses proving you wrong AFTER you have expressed your feelings.

//..the place Constantines mother claimed to have all these artifacts etc.//

St. Helena WAS NOT a Roman Citizen. Writing the word Constantine should have given that clue to you.

//WHy should we stop posting truths and exposing lies because you get offended?//

Maybe because I am offended by LIES when you claim they are truths.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/25/18


Cluny: RCC are NOT "slur initials if one is talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church...//

How can you give your opinion? You are NOT Catholic.

You distinguish them by saying the Rites.

In my Creed I never say 'One, Holy, ROMAN Catholic, or even ROMAN Apostolic Church'.

No, I say 'One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.' I am not a Roman Citizen. Please CITE a time when the Holy See calls it Self 'Roman'

BTW, Vatican City isn't in Rome.

//BTW, the Eastern Catholics are not simply Roman Catholics who say mass funny.//

Who said Eastern Catholics say Mass funny?

I believe their Masses are beautiful.

StrongAxe: Rome has no monopoly on the term.//

Name that Church in Rome.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/24/18


Nicole, acts 5 says CLEARLY....why have you LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT. That's what the verse says. Now, if the RCC chose to rewrite that verse into what YOU said....I prefer the KJV words. NOW if you want to give a Sunday school lesson on what YOU feel is the deeper meaning of what you THINK was in their hearts....that's a totally different issue. That's not for here.

And when I say RCC, that is exactly what I mean the RCC. The ROMAN Catholic Church. The place where it all started to go down hill. The place where indulgences began, the place where the crusades began, the place Constantines mother claimed to have all these artifacts etc.

WHy should we stop posting truths and exposing lies because you get offended Nicole?
---kathr4453 on 3/25/18


\\RCC are slur initials.

It's CC NOT RCC\\

Nicole, RCC are NOT "slur initials if one is talking about the ROMAN Catholic Church and her partriccular practices as opposed to the BYZANTINE, MELKITE, MARONITE, or other Catholic Churches.

BTW, the Eastern Catholics are not simply Roman Catholics who say mass funny.

Glory to Jeesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/24/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

What I got was from a Sunday Visitor article I found by googling plenary indulgences. I had to distill and paraphrase, because it was too long to quote verbatim, and we can't paste hyperlinks.

Since you think my perception of remission of sins is wrong, why not tell me how YOU understand them instead of just saying I'm wrong?

Everything I read there talked about temporal consequences, which are remitted by penance or purgatory. It explicitly excluded things like civil penalties for crimes - things the church has no jurisdiction over anyway.

RCC specifically distinguishes the Roman Catholic Church from other Catholic churches, of which there are several. Rome has no monopoly on the term.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/18


Kathr, Anainias and his wife didn't DIE for SIMPLY lying

They were pretending an act of CHARITY and TRUSTING the Holy Spirit to care for them.

Acts 5:2-4 With his wifes full knowledge he KEPT back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles feet. Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didnt it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasnt the money at your disposal? What made you think of DOING such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.

The act was an LIE and the words only compounded the ACT OF LYING.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/24/18


StrongAxe, you MADE UP that WHOLE STATEMENT about confession and Purgatory.

SUGGESTION?

When you want to CITE something about the CC go to the CCC and post the number so we can have a REAL debate.

You already have REAL disagreements with the CC's beliefs we can discuss and debate.

But I am NOT debating LIES placed on the CC.

Forgiveness for prevention of going to hell isn't including consequences of our actions.

BTW, I thought you Liberals were so sensitive about titles?

RCC are slur initials.

It's CC NOT RCC
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/24/18


kathr4453:

The people in the Pool weren't healed by their faith, but by their dexterity - the fastest got it.

The RCC believes that when we confess sin and receive forgiveness, that forgives us of the sin's spiritual consequences, but not its temporal consequences, which we must work off, either in this life, or the next (Purgatory). Note that the temporal debt for sin involves works. Indulgences remit temporal punishment.

"God's Justice" demands we be punished temporally, so normal forgiveness doesn't cover that. This doesn't explain how God can't make it just to forgive temporal consequences, but the Pope somehow can do so.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/18


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Kathr: think all their sins were forgiven on some bogus claim of walking through a door? That's horrifying!//

You sound SO RIDICULOUS that even StrongAxe TRIED to explain it to you with Scripture but you still DON'T UNDERSTAND!

NOWHERE in the CCC, Pope's Ecclesiastical letters or in Vatican websites states WALKING THROUGH A DOOR forgives sins.

You sound like those who claim ONLY saying 'Lord Lord' will get them into Heaven. Matthew 7:21-23

Even StrongAxe can't save you from your nonsense statements.

//.NO NICOLE even the pope holds no such power to forgive sin.--kathr4453

Not ONLY the Pope but ALSO Bishops and Priests. John 20:23 Scripture said so!

Remember Envy is one of the 7 DEADLY SINS!
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/24/18


Strongaxe, that is so true. The loosing and binding seems to be those miracles of healing the Apostles were given at the beginning of the Church age that accompanied the Gospel. And also on the other end, the example of Peter questioning Ananias and Sapphira his wife. Acts 5. Gosh if that authority were passed down to today, ( and the sin was not stealing...BUT LYING about it and pretending to be more spiritual than you were) we'd see many drop dead like flies. But even with that I do not believe Ananias and Sapphira his wife lost their salvation...meaning withholding forgivness....but that they just went home ( to the Lord) IN SHAME.

The Pool is also a great example of a faith leading to a miracle..or vice versa.
---kathr4453 on 3/24/18


Karen, Matthew 6:15 is supporting me not your claim.

I already said Jesus is speaking of personal sins against each others. (Directly)

Even a Priest has to forgive personal sins against him.

But in John 20:19-23, Jesus is speaking about Priest as a Third person. As a Judge.

As in the OT when the Israelites had Judges SET UP them by God Himself. Jesus is doing the SAME thing.

A Priest can decide if a person's sin is forgiving or not in Jesus' KINGDOM. His Court system.

Remember, The Holy Spirit is the Advocate which means a defense lawyer in a court system.

Jesus FIRST breathed the HOLY SPIRIT on them giving them the authority to forgive sins.

Jesus is King and it's His Rules!
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/24/18


kathr4453:

That's like what happened at the Pool of Bethesda. Whenever an angel stirred the waters, the first person in the pool was healed. Many camped by the pool, hoping to get healed. If you were lame, you couldn't outrun the others. Jesus healed a lame man there, but nobody else. They were all left, hoping they might get lucky some day.

The film wasn't based on the Jubilee, but on the theological basis of indulgences. Jesus told Peter what he loosed and sealed on earth would also be done in heaven. RCC claims this power has been handed down, so in theory, any priest can remit any sin.

A once in a lifetime "get out of hell free" is little different from a once in a lifetime "get out of sickness free".
---StrongAxe on 3/23/18


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Strongaxe, no doubt they got the idea for the Comedy from actual events that had been advertised and promoted two years before Jubilee 2000. I worked for a Ministry at that time who many in the ministry after hearing this, went over to Rome when all this was going on and shared the Gospel with so many, and were so glad they went. I'm sure many others around the world did as well.

Can you imagine one day may will stand before God as lost as lost can be and think all their sins were forgiven on some bogus claim of walking through a door? That's horrifying!

So again ONLY GOD can forgive sin tnrough faith in the finished works of Christ. An NO NICOLE even the pope holds no such power to forgive sin.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/18


kathr4454:

You wrote: all who took this pilgrimage to Rome who walked through some door or something the Pope declared their sins were all forgiven if they walked through the door.

The irreverent 1999 comedy Dogma is based on this idea. A bishop in New Jersey publicizes his cathedral by offering indulgences to anyone who enters the door on one particular day. Two fallen angels hear this and travel there, to be forgiven and allowed to re-enter heaven. Hell loves this, because if that happens, it would prove God wrong for banishing them in the first place, and once God is no longer infallible, all of creation would unravel. The agents of heaven recruit some unlikely mortals to help stop this from happening. Hilarity ensues.
---StrongAxe on 3/23/18


\\ where that person will ask you to repeat prayers in vain like the heathen do.\\

Doesn't it bother you to pop off about things of with you clearly know nothing, Stepheng?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/22/18


No one needed any council or creeds of this Roman cult to establish Christianity. When Luther one day read Romans...yes, just Romans....words directly from Paul to Luther...with no middleman or commentary explaining Romans.....it was THEN, by the Grace of God and the Holy Spirit that Luther understood Justification by FAITH ALONE. Luther GOT IT. Now THIS is what I mean by the Apostles epistles affecting us DIRECTLY, without needing any church fathers. Today YOU TOO, just like Luther, can read these epistles called Scripture, aka GOD BREATHED ...and YES, with the presence of the Holy Spirit ( by the way is given to GLORIFY GOD and His Word) remember Jesus said my words ARE Spirit and life. Luther was just a man like anyone today.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/18


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Mark_Eaton, my comment, based on Nicole placing the "Church Fathers" in a superior position above Christians, as well as her claim that forgivness of sin was also passed down ONLY to the Fathers and not Christians. I believe FAITHFUL MEN AND WOMEN in the beginning of the church age from all the established churches not only copied and passed around these letters, but kept a personal library of all of them.

So to somehow go from that to A Roman Church claiming total authority over these letters, where THEY decided what's what, and KEPT them from the people, when ordinary people had them from the beginning, then becoming illegal to have, ....claiming some superior authority over them ....was NOT what God ever had in mind.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/18


There is another interesting thing here to note. Does anyone remember 2000 Jubilee in Rome, where all who took this pilgrimage to Rome who walked through some door or something the Pope declared their sins were all forgiven if they walked through the door. Well, was it based on that verse John 20:23 that the Roman Priesthood took such liberties? Faith in a door? Faith in their own efforts? Faith in the Popes false teaching? Just remember what Paul said in Thesselonians about the anti_Christ sitting in the temple as though he were God. This is a perfect example.

Preaching the FORGIVNESS OF SIN is what was given the Apostles, based on REPENTANCE AND JESUS DEATH AND RESURRECTION LIFE and exactly what was preached at Pentecost.
---kathr4454 on 3/21/18


Scripture DID NOT come down from the Apostles TO the Church Fathers to us today.....
---kathr4453 on 3/21/18

I understand what you mean here, but what you said in this sentence is EXACTLY what happened. The Apostles wrote, it was conserved, preserved, copied, by the Church Fathers and the Church until it could be distributed to the public at the end of the Middle Ages. The Scriptures did not come directly to you from the Apostles.

What you are meaning is exactly my argument against Traditions. Traditions, which were supposedly passed unchanged from the Apostles, to the Bishops, from man to man down thru history, are to me unacceptable because they are not Scriptural and have us assuming about them.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/21/18


Kathr, you can't pick and choose what Jesus can pass down to the generations or not.

Scriptures came DOWN from the Apostles through the Fathers of the Church.

Why are you accepting the Bible?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/20/18

I do accept the Bible Nicole. Scripture DID NOT come down from the Apostles TO the Church Fathers to us today.....

This is CULT behavior, NOT Christianity. The Bible has no mention of any Fathers that the Apostles appointed over Christians. In fact the opposite is taught. That we are all in submission to one another and only JESUS CHRIST is head of the Church. We are all given GIFTS for ministry, and no one GIFT holds more authority than another. You really MUST read 1 Corinthians 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/18


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Nicole....Matthew 6:15.
---KarenD on 3/20/18


Steveng, you can not have it both ways. Jesus said we must forgive other sins if we want God to forgive our sins. That's direct sins against us.

But Jesus ONLY told the Apostles THEY can withhold forgiveness.

Certain people. NOT everyone.

//When Jesus said that if you do not forgive others God will not forgive you He did not say "the priest will not forgive you."---KarenD on 3/20/18

Who is claiming that?

You blended two Scriptures together. Jesus is CLEAR.

Kathr, you can't pick and choose what Jesus can pass down to the generations or not.

Scriptures came DOWN from the Apostles through the Fathers of the Church.

Why are you accepting the Bible?
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/20/18


When Jesus said that if you do not forgive others God will not forgive you He did not say "the priest will not forgive you."
---KarenD on 3/20/18


As a Christian we can say Jesus to promised to forgive your sins. If you repent and turn to Jesus. We can only say that this is the promise of Jesus.

We cannot know who is really following Jesus and who is not for sure.

Their fruits show where their love is. But we are not to judge and decide for GOD. For only GOD reads the hearts and mind.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/20/18


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21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

One reason the Pharisees and scribes came after Jesus to kill him is because Jesus was forgiving sins. They knew ONLY GOD could forgive sin, and that hasn't changed. Their problem was they just didn't believe Jesus was God.

And what ever Jesus said to the Apostles was to them. Nothing about that being passed down to others. See, the only groups with hierarchies are cults. Mormon , Scientiology, now RCC. BUT In the BOC we are ALL KINGS AND PRIESTS into God. No one lords it over another. And to suggest some sort of MIND READING comes with the position of Catholic priest....SCRIPTURE PLEASE.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/18


Again, Nicole places catholic priests above Christians. Please back that up with scripture. And whatever the Lord meant in John 20:23, cannot be what Nicole or the Catholic church thinks it means. Only God can forgive sins, resulting in either someone's salvation or relationship with the Lord. Nothing and NO ONE CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. A Catholic priest holds no power in that arena. Maybe they have some poor souls in the Catholic Church hoodwinked... I can't even find a verse where Peter or John or any of the Apostles withheld forgiveness from anyone or even taught such a falsehood.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/18


People do not need to confess their sins at a particular place or to a particular person and where that person will ask you to repeat prayers in vain like the heathen do.

Christians must confess their sins to one another and pray/communicate with God the sins that they may be healed.

If we sin against someone, we must specifically confess our sin so that we may seek forgiveness from that person. Then pray to God to be healed from making the same sin again.

---Steveng on 3/19/18


Hello Luke. //John 20:23. The verse does not give authority to Christians to forgive sins.//

I agree. Only Priests are given the authority to forgive sins.

//Jesus was saying that the believer (here disciples)//

Now that's where we disagree. Because Jesus first saw Mary Magdalene after He rose from the dead. He also saw 500 another people who were 'believers'.
But Jesus did not breathe the Holy Spirit on them. Nor did He give them the authority to forgive or not to forgive sin.

Now a believer has to forgive a sin conducted against him or her as stated in the 'Our Father' prayer.
They are NOT given the authority to withhold forgiveness.

Only Priests are allowed to withhold forgiveness as a 3rd person.
---Nicole_Lacey on 3/19/18


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Nicole,

I see the John 20 passage as speaking to sins committed against the hearer by someone else. In the same way, Matt. 18 talks about forgiving sins committed by a brother or a close friend.

However, use of the confessional is a very good sacrament. Confessing our sins, weaknesses, unforgiveness, and lack of faithfulness to another believer is great for our christian walk and great for our mental and emotional health.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/19/18


Hello Nicole. Here is my answer concerning John 20:23.
The verse does not give authority to Christians to forgive sins. Jesus was saying that the believer (here disciples) can boldly declare the certainty of a sinners forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son, if that sinners has repented and believed the gospel.
The believer with certainty can also tell those who do not respond to the message of God's forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins as a result, are not forgiven.
---Luke on 3/19/18


Correction: Nicole, what does mind reading have to do with it? A man knows when an offense has been committed against him, it is those sins he is called to forgive.
---Josef on 3/19/18


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