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Is Left Behind Rapture True

What ends is correct? there is so many interpretations, but one has to be correct. Is there going to be a millennium? or, are we now in the millennium? will there be a rapture with some left behind? What does the Bible really teach?

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Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I don't see verse 26 say the Mystery was exclusively given to Paul and was made manifest exclusively by Paul.

Because there were other Gospels going around NOT SANCTIONED BY GOD, who were upsetting people ...even saying the resurrection had already happened. Peter warns about false teachers......was he warning about Paul?
---kathr4453 on 4/22/18


Here an awesome insight into,the MYSTERY, found in Ephesians 5...bone of His Bone, flesh of His flesh....being ONE.....just as we see right in the beginning of Genesis...Eve taken out of Adams side, is a type and shadow of the Church. And John 17 opens up the Mystery in Jesus Prayer...that we may be ONE...all those given to Jesus. Earthly Israel belong tthe Father.

Circumcision on the 8th day, again foreshadowing the NEW CREATION, and more deeply explained in Colossians 2 what circumcision foreshadowed.

The fellowship of His sufferings, Oh thank you Lord for James and Peters and HEBREWS epistles on that part of the Mystery, encouraging every step of the way...

Those are just a FEW of the things revealed to us.
---kath453 on 4/22/18


"But King Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites, Of the nation which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go into them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love." (1Kings 11:1-2)

Because of Solomon's behavior with women outside of Israel, that's why God divided Israel and scattered them.

There is no proof, only legend whether Sheba and Solomon had a son together. Did Sheba herself convert to Judaism? No scripture supports that either . Moses married an Etheopian woman and had a son who was recognized as part of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 4/21/18


If Paul taught the same gospel as those before him, why did he call it my gospel three times?
When Paul mentions my gospel it shows a unique message, with no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
Paul and Peter taught the resurrection of Christ Peter as proof of his Messiahship, and assurance of the kingdom come.
Paul, as means of salvation and sanctification for all humanity as part of a new creature, the BoC.
The Lord revealed to Paul a mystery kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:3). If it's revealed before it's not a mystery.
His gospel wasn't received by man, but given to him first by the risen Lord (Gal 1:1, Gal 1:11). Peter had to learn God had given Paul further information about Gods grace (Gal 2:9).
---michael_e on 4/21/18


Paul didn't teach the mystery to those in Acts 19 either. All he asked was, Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed.

Every letter from each of the Apostles is a revelation from God building upon the foundation of the Mystery. There would be no reason for God to continually repeat hemself. However He did, but just different manifestations of Christ In You.

If all you can say is Christ IN YOU, but have no clue what is happening IN You, then you are just parroting words without WITNESS.

Paul built upon the apostleS and prophetS. S as in plural....truth comes by two,and threes Michael_e so saying ONLY Paul knew goes totally against how God works. Even the Trinity bear witness of one another.
---kathr4453 on 4/21/18




\\Cornelius and the Etheopian Eunuch were Gentiles. \\

That is debatable. Queen Mendaka of Ethiopia, the queen of Sheba, had a son, King Menelek, by King Solomon.

In addition to carrying back a son to Ethiopia, she brought back Jewish scholars, priests, and the Jewish religion (as it existed at the time).

Otherwise, the officer of the Candace (queen) of Ethiopia would have no reason to visit Jerusalem or read Isaiah.

Cornelius was obviously a Theofovoumenos (translated as "you who fear God" in the KJV). These were Gentiles who accepted everything about Judaism except circumcision.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/21/18


1 Peter 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
In the whole book of acts, not even Paul utters the words..CHRIST IN YOU or you in Christ which IS the Mystery. However we KNOW the Mystery is CHRIST IN YOU clearly stated in Colossians 1:24-27, and if Christ is IN You, you are also IN HIM. Paul also uses the words IN CHRIST, as the BOC are all those IN CHRIST. And here we have Peter ending 1Peter with ALL THOSE IN CHRIST

Michael_e earthly Israel are not those IN CHRIST, only the NEW CREATURE IS.

Even when Paul preached at Mars Hill, he never uttered the Mystery or any reference to the Gospel according to the Mystery....so your argument is baseless.
---kath4454 on 4/21/18


Peter didn't teach the mystery of Christ to Cornelius. Acts 10 Peter observes the law of commandments Jesus told him to observe (Mat 23:1. Acts 10:28)
The 12 taught, Jesus, the Son of God, and believing this and following commandments counted you worthy of eternal life (Acts 3:26, 1 John 5:12).
The eunuch a Jewish proselyte Acts 8:27, Acts 11:19, Acts 15:4
Isaiah 52:9, 53:1, 6, 8 speaks of Israel
Isaiah 53 isn't good news of the cross, mystery, or Gods grace to all. It's the account of an innocent sacrifice for Israels sins.
The message taught by John, Jesus, and Peter was verified by historical Scripture, Paul claims his message wasn't revealed to anyone prior. It was kept secret and hid in God (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:9).
---michael_e on 4/21/18


Michael_e, that verse has been used by many cults to divide..Armstrongism is another.

John 17:20 And those who believes on me through their word. Take the Gospel to ALL nations... Don't do what Trav and Calvinist's do by redefining "whosoever and nations". John 3:16 is WHOSOEVER , MEANING Jew and Gentile.

Cornelius and the Etheopian Eunuch were Gentiles.

That Gentiles would be saved was no secret ...as it was openly told to Abraham in the OT. And Paul points that out in Galatians....

Also Galatians show Paul was given the right hand of fellowship and they confirmed Paul was revealed the same Gospel they received. Not two different Gospels! Now the NON believing Jews were those who persecuted Paul.
---kathr4453 on 4/21/18


Les Feldman??? a little respect please
John 17 BOC?? where are the gentiles?
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: 9"... that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
Acts 8:1 "..and they were all SCATTERED.."
Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered..."
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered...."
The BoC doesn't have twelve tribes BoC is made up of Jew and Gentile.
---michael_e on 4/20/18




Correction, not Armstrong, but E.W. Bullinger, who is the father of hyper-dispensationalism.

It's a false doctrine, and would be worth pulling up online sites showing many many points of how false it is.

It OVERLY divides the Word of Truth, and overlooks totally that Jesus Clearly said in Acts 1:6-7 that the Kingdom that will one day be restored to Israel was in the Fathers time.....so Jesus NEVER said Yes....preach the Kingdom restored to Israel. Also Peter never would have told the Jews to ESCAPE this present evil generation...if he thought the Kingdom was being restored to Israel.
---kathr4453 on 4/21/18


Thank you Samuel. God bless you too. All things do work together for good. I think everything we go through God uses for His purpose and Glory. For me, it was all for the purpose of learning and growing. And of course, we never stop learning and growing. ,)
---kathr4453 on 4/20/18


Michael_e the others do, but Les Feldman overlooked it, being taught by Armstrong.....

I showed you umpteen verses, Galatians, with Abraham, not LAW, Peter, chapter 2 is awesome, being partakers of His Divine Nature BY FAITH in His Promises, Only those IN CHRIST the BOC are partakers of His divine nature....But these are things only the Holy Spirit can show you by personally experiencing them as the BOC.

John 17 you also dismiss....I IN THEM AND THOU IN ME that we may be ONE....is ONLY to the BOC.

James 1....totally awesome...the trials of your "faith" to be perfect and entire lacking nothing, receiving crowns of this and that ONLY to the BOC.

Your view is so narrow and limited head knowledge.
---kathr4453 on 4/20/18


Dear Kathyr I am sorry for what you went through. I agree with you on Dispensationalism. We have had a number of church leaders who are Jewish. Including some of my favorite writers.

GOD be with you and guide you.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/20/18


Michael e asked "Why does the law, prophets and the ministry of the twelve apostles never mention the hidden wisdom of God found exclusively in Paul's ministry". Are you serious?

"But I have called you friends because everything I have learned from my Father, I have made known to you." John 15:15

Surely, the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret council to His servants, the prophets". Amos 3:6-8.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled just as He proclaimed to His servants, the prophets." Rev 10:7.
---barb on 4/20/18


Teaching the purpose God has for the church today, we contrast it to Gods purpose for Israel by quoting prophecy. Paul did the same thing. ((Eph 2:11-13 1 Thess 5:2-4)
Paul referenced the law and the prophets. None take away from Pauls special ministry to make all men see the fellowship of the mystery (Col 1:26, Eph 6:19).
Paul used all scripture for the profit of all, but it wasn't the only thing he spoke about. (1 Cor 2:7)
It's not hard to figure out Paul quotes the law and the prophets for the same reasons we do.
But, why does the law, prophets, and the ministry of the twelve apostles never mention the hidden wisdom of God found exclusively in Pauls ministry. Paul's gospel, rapture etc.
---michael_e on 4/20/18


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I love Acts 8:27-39....Philip reading and explaining Isaiah 53 To the Etheopian Eunuch, explaining it is Jesus death the Spriptures are talking about, and of coarse His resurrection, of which Philip baptized The Eunuch and he received the Holy Spirit. This clearly is NOT what John the Baptist followers were taught.

The Eunuch was BORN AGAIN that day, because of his faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as was prophesied, and fulfilled, as being the ONLY ONE who those scriptures described. Because of that detailed description in Isaiah is where FAITH in Gods WORD pierced the mind and heart of the Ethiopian Eunuch. That Ethiopian Eunuch is every bit a member of the BOC as you and I are. *Romans 10:9-10 *1 Cor 15:1-4
---kathr4453 on 4/20/18


Michael _e, many Christians today do not understand the Mystery, because they're not growing in the grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ, but rely on man and commentaries = wood hay and stubble upon their foundation but they are still the BOC.

It took YEARS to understand the Mystery AFTER I was saved because I asked God not man to explain this or that, because I am Jewish, and wanted to know where I fit in, being told all sorts of falsehoods, including I could not be part of the BOC because I was Jewish. So yes, because of that, the Lord answered all my questions and showed me from a Chriatian Jewish perspective who I AM IN CHRIST. Excluding is a horrible sin and anti-Semitic which I find hypo-dispensationalism is.
---kathr445 on 4/20/18


I die daily is one thing. But being crucified with Christ is not something we do, but what God did for us through Jesus death and resurrection. When we put our faith in Christ we were baptized into His Death, and out of that death are raised up a NEW CREATURE, neither Jew or Gentile, and seated with Christ in heavenly places in Christ. The NC to Israel never promised this. The NC still only promises earthly blessings. Ezekiel 36.

Every thing we were in Adam 1 and this old fallen creation is dead. We're not restored to Adams original state...
But something far more wonderful..

Positioned now ABOVE the angels. ...above earthly Israel.
---kathr4453 on 4/19/18


However Paul states what he preached was upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets.

So this is where michael_e and I part ways. Paul preached and the Bereans checked by reading OT scripture. Yes, now those scriptures WE CAN SEE.. It's in the OT. Just hidden from our eyes and understanding. It's not a NEW doctrine like Joseph Smith started. Isaiah 53 clearly tell about Jesus death, Psalms 20 talk about Jesus Resurrection. Zechariah 12-14 tell about the one Israel rejected and crucified, and His SECOND COMING ...but no one could understand that like we do.

And look in Acts, the eunuch asking Phillip to read and explain Isaiah 53. Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied....and if not....we have no feet to stand on.
---kathr4453 on 4/19/18


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Paul does not say we are already dead. But that we die daily and must crucify ourselves.

1Co 15:31

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I don't believe in dispensationalism. I agree with Covenant Theology. There are some similarities. But in Covenant the New Covenant is made with Israel which is the church. Also the whole Bible is for study not just some parts.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/19/18


Samuel, that's wonderful. Now, scripture already states we have been translated out of this world into,the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Colossians 3 again state we not only died to sin, but died to this world and world system...as we speak. We are already seated with Christ in heavenly places IN CHRIST.. This is a FIRST, never don't before, or even promised to anyone but the BOC. We already entered through much tribulation. All this we have undergone in this dispensation SO THAT we can reign and rule WITH CHRIST during the 1000 years. It's an honor and PRIVLEDGE. All because we chose the fellowship of His sufferings now in this lifetime.

It's all in scripture Samuel. It's all Paul , John, Peter, James talk about....
---kathr4453 on 4/19/18


The most common division in scripture, which most do, is between the old and new testaments. It is right to divide the old and new covenants given to Israel, but this is not the greatest division.
The most important division in the Bible is between what God said he would do through the prophets since the world began, and what God is now doing described in the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began, which few do.
If you want to see this division clearly start by comparing Acts 3:21 and Rom 16:25.
Peter preached in Acts 3:21 what God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Paul preached in Rom 16:25 that which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest
---michael_e on 4/19/18


kathr4453

My problem with Dominion Theology is that it is just a New version of the RCC having the Pope in charge of the earth.

I have been Born again in this world by the power of the Risen Christ. But we have not yet been Resurrected from the Dead for Christ has not returned to earth yet. It is not I but Christ who lives in me. Which fills me with love to obey GOD. That is what we SDA teach.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/19/18


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\\You say Christ is risen, but you keep him on the Cross.\\

I have no idea what you mean by that. Do you? If so, explain.

And where did you get the notion you rightly divided the Word? You don't.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/19/18


Michael_e....perfect. It's all there in scripture. I really do wonder when professing Christians read those verses....what they think they mean.

This is why I LOVE James 1....because Gods word and promises are absolute truth. If you lack the wisdom to understand, as all spiritual wisdom and knowledge is IN CHRIST to begin with....we simply need to Ask God ....in faith. I promise you, if you really do want to know the answer, HE IS DELIGHTED in answering you. Don't make up silly scenarios not even in scripture and then use that as an excuse to toss away. And pease don't run to your favorite commentary to give you the answer you want to hear. That proves nothing...and is opposite of what James 1 states.
---kathr4453 on 4/18/18


The prophets spoke of a promised land given to a chosen nation ruling in an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, Paul spoke of both Jews and Gentiles (BOC)reigning in heavenly places judging angels (Eph 2:6).
Instead of law and prophecy, we live in the dispensation of grace hid in God from the foundation of the world (Eph 3:9).
The verse clearly says it was secret since the world began, many still look to the prophets for clues about what's happening now.
Its time we continue what God started with Paul to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery the secret since the world began (Eph 3:9).
1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 speak of a rapture not revealed before
---michael_e on 4/18/18


AMEN.

It's one thing to continually chant "Christ is risen".....but it's a totally different mindset to declare" I've been raised up together With The Risen Christ". This you will never hear from an Orthodox, RCC, SDA, ...because if you did....and that was proclaimed from the heart and not the head, one would personally realize all that's left is our bodies being fashioned like His. For we shall be like Him, ....

Also part of this wonderful Gospel according to the Mystery...

But those actually into "dominion theology " are those who do not believe we're no longer part of this world as we speak.
---kathr4453 on 4/16/18


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//But it wasn't.//
It is just not in your commentaries.
You say Christ is risen, but you keep him on the Cross.
If you ever understand right division, and try to follow the RISEN CHRIST you will be able to discuss scripture instead of constantly attacking.
---michael_e on 4/16/18


\\Maybe it's been there all along, and just now being nailed to the door of old tradition.\\

But it wasn't.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/15/18


Most say Dispensationalism is false because Darby/Scofield/other dispensational teachers are bad people. How bad are they?
They say dispensationalism is false because of the rapture.
This identifies someone who is ignorant about dispensational teaching.
They say dispensationalism is false because it's new.
Only ideas with widespread historical appeal should be considered true? This is the argument of historical losers.
Have there not been any new developments in Covenant Theology since its popularity?
We know what is new by comparing it to scripture, not to historical popularity.
Uncovered truth isn't new.
Maybe it's been there all along, and just now being nailed to the door of old tradition.
---michael_e on 4/14/18


I can understand why those still under the LAW and have put themselves under the Sabbath given exclusively to the Nation of Israel, would believe they are a replacement for the Nation of Israel and not believe be centered in dispensation doctrine or or be centered or believe THE CHURCH OR BOC will meet the Lord in the Clouds.

I don't see this promise ever given to the NATION of ISRAEL. And I don't see any promised LAND promised to the Church. Also the BOC is not a NATION, but begotten sons tnrough Jesus Christ seated IN HEAVENLY places IN CHRIST.

It's a matter of one not u derstanding WHO they are IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/18


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Good points Dave

Barb the love GOD and love others is from the Books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Jesus did add as you say himself as the example. But it has always been true that we are to love others. A problem many who say they are Christians have doing.
Let us keep our eyes on Jesus. Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/13/18


David, from the time of Adams fall, man has been under the penalty if death. In Adam all die. Romans 5 show this truth. That even though from Adam to Moses there was no Law....death still reigned. Everyone during Noah's time died in their sin...yet there was no one under the Law .... Romans 1-2 tell us exactly what and why they died in their sin.
---kathr4453 on 4/12/18


Maybe we are making this too complicated. God gave Moses the law and Jesus gave His disciples a new commandment.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another." John 13:34-35 This new commandment does not negate God's law. If it did then Jesus would have said so.

Keeping the commandments of God and holding to the testimony of Jesus are requirements for entering into God's kingdom. Matt 19:16-26, Rev. 12:17 and Rev. 14:12.
---barb on 4/12/18


Well, the point is Galatians says the LAW came 400 + years after Abraham. So please, let's stay with the written word.

SDA's believe the Law was in effect with Adam and Eve, and they too kept the sabbath...but Romans 5 show that is not so. So again we have TWO scripture witnesses that say there was no LAW until Moses.

Also if the LAW was in Effect, Cain would not have gotten away with murdering his brother....and we see no LAW even under the LAW sent anyone to NOD for murder with a mark on them.
---kathr4453 on 4/12/18


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Abraham was not under the Law. The key words here are, Under The Law. What does it mean to be Under the Law?
It means, the Law God has given you, puts you Under the Penalty of Death, if you do not keep his Law.

Abraham had Law...as Samuel correctly pointed out...only he was not under the penalty of Death for breaking the Law. Abrahams children, who were under the Law of Moses...were under the penalty of death for breaking Gods Law.

Now if sin is the breaking of the Law, and the sinner will die for their sins, we are technically under the Law...only we are given a suspended sentence until the day of judgement.

Now all one needs to understand is, Why did God change the Law?
---David on 4/12/18


Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/18


Samuel
Very Interesting point!
Paul said Abraham wasnt under the Law, but the verse seems to imply Paul and I are wrong. Are we wrong, or do you have more to add?

I hope you do, because you have unearthed a very important point.
---David on 4/12/18


David you missed part of what the Bible says.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I know many make the statement that Abraham had no commandments since there was no big give like to Moses. But the Bible says that Abraham kept the Commandments of GOD. So yes he had some.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/18


David, I don't see where we disagree on this issue. I believe in the obedience of faith...which is also,Gods commandments. Exactly how did Abel or Job or even Abraham KNOW to sacrifice for sin? We see they did...so I see that as keeping Gods commandments as well. Today Jesus is that final sacrifice...and the temporary covering for sin is over. That part is finished. But it does not mean we are foot lose and fancy free to sin. I DIE DAILY is also a commandment. And walk in the spirit and not the flesh is a commandment. And to love one another ..a commandment.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/18


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The question is ...do YOU know the difference between these verses? ---kathr4453

Kathryn
Good question. I do know the difference.

Gods Law is established when he gives commandments. When there are no commandments, we have no Law. Abraham for example, was not given any commandments, therefore he was not under Law.

In (Romans 2) Paul is referencing the Law of Christ. He called it the Law, because Jesus gave us commandments in his Gospel. Just as Moses gave commandments to Abrahams children, when God established the Law of Moses.

In (Romans 3) Paul referenced the Law of Moses, which was no longer relevant after the establishment of the Law of Christ.

The New can save us, the old can not.
---David on 4/11/18


David, the question is ...do YOU know the difference between these verses?

If I were telling a story, and all you did was pull out two sentences say like:

Chapter 2: And all the people wore blue.

Chapter 3: And all the people wore red.

There does seem to be a contradiction....BUT MAYBE NOT. iIt would depend on what chapter 2 was about . And after continuing to read line upon line ....by the time everyone is all in Red....something must have happened....


Same with GRACE vs LAW. Scripture speaks of both, yet it's impossible to be under both at the same time. It's called learning to rightly divide the word of truth.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18


(Romans 2:13) For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(Romans 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Kathryn
Im on vacation, sorry it took so long for me to respond.

Why do you think Paul appears to contradict himself in the above passages? Could he perhaps be speaking of two different Laws? The Law of Christ in the first...and the Law of Moses in the second. (John 1:17)
---David on 4/10/18


"taken are the wicked that will be destroyed, caught up are the righteous.." Very insightful Mike. The coming of the Lord will be as the days of Noah in a number of ways. One of which will be just as the wicked were destroyed in the flood, they will be destroyed at His coming with fire. Jos 7:15>Zec 14:12 And just as Noah and His family were lifted above the flood, so will the righteous be lifted above the wrath being poured out upon the wicked. Another that will be just as it was in the days of Noah, the wicked will not know what is to come until the fire of His wrath takes them away. Mat 24:39
---joseph on 4/9/18


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warning, from Paul. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law////

Yes, from Adam to Moses there was no law, yet we see multitudes perish during the time of Noah. What did Noah preach during those 125 years? He didn't preach " KEEP THE LAW".

We see Hebrews 11 give an historical account of those before the Law...and even during the Law, where no one was counted righteous by keeping the Law. Hebrews 11 clearly show FAITH...PERIOD. It's ALWAYS been FAITH....and always will be. Why is that so hard to see?

The Law was added so sin would ABOUND. And where sin abounds GRACE much more ABOUNDS.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/18


The Commandments of God do not ALWAYYS mean the LAW OR 10 Commandments or 600+ commandments. Abraham also kept the commandments of God, but the LAW was not yet even stated or in effect. Romans 5 clearly say from Adam to MOSES there was NO LAW.

Yet there was still accountability aka the commandments of God. FAITH and obedience of FAITH( not law) is also keeping His commandments. One was SACRIFICE, as we see Job sacrificed for sin....was before the LAW, as NO LAW or sabbath keeping is once mentioned in Job who said, I KNOW THAT MY REDEEMER LIVETH, and being faithful,and obedient throughout his suffering, said "I SHALL COME FORTH AS GOLD. ". He didn't say that because he bragged in keeping the LAW.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/18


(Revelation 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The commandments of God,...arent they also called,The Law? But what will happen to those who dont put themselves under the Law of God, those who are taught they are not under Gods Law?

Let (Romans 2:12) serve as a warning, from Paul. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

How many of you sin...but are not under the Law? I wish your teachers were able to teach you, how the Law is able to covert the soul. (Psalms 19:7)
---David on 4/8/18


taken & caught up are two different things. taken are the wicked that will be destroyed, caught up are the righteous 'LEFT' that will be caught up to meet with Christ.
---mike on 4/6/18


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I'm not a stickler on pre or mid....but just the fact that the Church will be raptured out before the BOWLES OF WRATH come. I tend to lean more towards mid....but could be wrong.

If it's mid, it will give many folks time to repent...that's for sure. That's where my heart is at....hoping.

Repent and believe .....for the Wrath of God is Coming.....just as Noah preached for 125 years the same message. But Jesus said man will be like at the time of Noah...probably meaning hard hearted and scoffing.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/18


The key to understanding Revelation, is to develop a time line. The mistake we make when reading the Bible, is running with a single passage, trying to develop a teaching using only those verses which support our theories, and excluding those that refute our beliefs.

Swallowed pride can sometimes make a very nourishing meal.
---David on 4/6/18


Well, since the CHURCH was kept secret until the NT...Colossians 1:24-27, and is the Gospel according to the MYSTERY, also kept secret until the NT...why would the rapture have to be something found in the OT. The CHURCH was not revealed in the OT...Colossians 1:24-27.... If you believe Scripture and not your own understanding.

The Mystery, is also the BOC, His Bride, ..where spiritually we have already been translated out of this present evil world. We're just waiting for our new bodies, ....so why would the CHURCH who is already redeemed need to go through the great Tribulation...the WRATH TO Come?

Well, those left behind we see in Zechariah 12-14.... And very few of those left will actually make it to the 1000 year reign.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Amen Mark. Good points.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/5/18


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The problem with a PreTribulation Rapture is two-fold.

First is the dead rising or the change happening. 1 Cor 15 talks about being changed to "imperishable", or like Jesus. This must happen at the end of time if: 1) the Millennial Reign is on Earth, 2) Rev. 20 timeline is believed, 3) Daniel 12 agrees with Rev. 20.

Second, the trumpet blast is the calling home of the saints. It must also happen at the end of time if: 1) 1 Cor 15 occurs at the end, 2) Rev. 11 the seventh trumpet is the same trumpet, 3) 1 Thes 4 agrees with 1 Cor 15.

You see, all these events line up if they occur at the end of time, not before the Tribulation.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/5/18


Let's reason this out.

If the rapture is to escape the tribulation, like how most christians believe, why would the dead in Christ rise? If they are dead they shouldn't be hurt by the persecution of christians during the tribulation. Christians who are living will need to endure unto the end.

There are, of course, two resurrections: the first at the soon to return of Jesus where the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead and the second at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ where all the other dead from all of history shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works - some to everlasting life, some to everlasting death.
---Steveng on 4/4/18


Monk-Brandon....I said nothing about pre-trib catching away. I asked for interpretation of the scriptures.
---KarenD on 4/4/18


The words caught up in 1 Thes 4:17 refers to being preferred and taken, as plucked from our earthly bodies and placed within our eternal bodies, then along with the risen dead who were also clothed with their eternal bodies we will meet (defined encounter, 529 strongs) the Lord in the air (breath) or our resurrected essence. This is documented in the line of that verse that reads and so shall we ever (defined always, evermore, 3842 strongs}, be with the Lord. Witnessing verse 1 Cor. 15:51,52. The Change is this corruptible (image of the Earthly) verse 48 putting on incorruption (image of the heavenly). The word clouds refers to the vast number of angels that will accompany Jesus during His return. Documented in (2 Thes. 1:7,10)
---joseph on 4/4/18


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The Pre-Trib Rapture is false

Why are end time "christians" so vain to think they are more special to be saved from persecution by the so-called rapture than all the christians throughout history, and even today, who have been persecuted and killed.

The rapture is the false deception created by Satan. Those who receive the "Mark of the Beast" won't think it's the Mark of the Beast because they believe that they will be raptured before the coming of the Mark of the Beast. Denominational christians, counterfeit christians, weak christians will receive the Mark of the Beast, unknowingly. True christians are to endure until the last day.
---Steveng on 4/4/18


David, something for you to consider. The reign of the elect is on earth, not in heaven, unless of course you are referring to the reign of Jesus on earth during the millennia, as Heaven. In that case you would indeed be correct, for that will be what is referred by Jesus Himself as the kingdom of Heaven.
---joseph on 4/4/18


//If the rapture is false doctrine, what do these two scriptures mean?
---KarenD on 4/3/18//
The rapture is not a false doctrine, it is part of the Paul's mystery doctrine, not prophesied, as the second coming of Christ described in Zech 4 and Acts 1.
1 Thess 4, plus 1 Cor 15 describe the rapture''catching up of the church, the body of Christ.
---michael_e on 4/4/18


Karen D. said, " 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17....If the rapture is false doctrine, what do these two scriptures mean?"

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This doesn't say ANYTHING about the tribulation, so why do you assume that this catching up is BEFORE such a thing.

Finally, in v17, it says, " Then we which are alive and remain..." What are we remaining from? From the Tribulation, of course.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/4/18


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\\The most obvious disclaimer of a pretribulation rapture, is found in (Revelation 20:4) & (Revelation 7:14).\\

There's another refutation of it: Matthew 13. In the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, the Savior said that BOTH grow together until the harvest, which is the end of the age. He did not say that the wheat is gathered a week (or 1007 days) before the harvest.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/18


The most obvious disclaimer of a pretribulation rapture, is found in (Revelation 20:4) & (Revelation 7:14).

Notice in 20:4, those who reign with Christ for the thousand years, are those who did not worship or receive the Mark of the Beast. Isnt the Mark of the Beast received during the Great Tribulation?

Now If these folks didnt go through the Great tribulation, why are they being rewarded for not receiving a Mark, given during the Great Tribulation?

In verse 7:14, does it not say...these folks came out of the Great Tribulation? If they did, wouldnt they have had to have been in it, to come out of it?

I ask these questions not to make folks feel foolish, but that they see the foolishness of these teachings.
---David on 4/4/18


John9346 said, "So tell us is God confusing or are the Foolish Doctrines of Men confusing??

Always, it is the fooling notions of Men that are confusing.

But can you tell me why a pre-millenium Rapture is necessary, or even in the Bible?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/3/18


The Word Rapture comes from the Latin word Rapturo - which in english means - Caught Up
---RichardC on 4/3/18


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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17....If the rapture is false doctrine, what do these two scriptures mean?
---KarenD on 4/3/18


david said, "The Bible seems to be confusing on this point, because folks read it, guided by the foolish doctrines of men."

So tell us is God confusing or are the Foolish Doctrines of Men confusing??
---john9346 on 4/3/18


The Thousand year reign
The key to understanding when it begins, is to understand what it mean to reign. Is the church ruling the world today? If its not..we are not in the Thousand year reign.

The thousand year reign will begin after the Great Tribulation, when Jesus Christ comes, and takes with him, those who will be saved. We will reign with him...from heaven.

The Bible seems to be confusing on this point, because folks read it, guided by the foolish doctrines of men.
---David on 4/3/18


1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 -Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds,To meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---RichardC on 4/1/18


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If the Left behind rapture is true then that means Jesus is coming by a drive thru method route.

Which ISN'T in the Bible and then a 2nd time which actually would be His third time.

That rapture method style was made up to make people feel better.

When Jesus comes everyone better be ready. Luke 18:7-8

But before He comes it will be like hell on earth so much Jesus states the days will be shorter for the Elects to endure life on earth. Matthew 24:22

But if you have faith in God, you will endure anything.

Besides, if the rapture is true who are the Elects Jesus is speaking about and did anyone tell Jesus those Elects would be taking up into Heaven?
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/1/18


Jesus answered ...there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be...Immediately after the tribulation of those days.... the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,...And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect... from one end of heaven to the other. Mat. 24:3-31> 2Th 2:1-3 [Jesus came once, He will come again. I know of no intermediate coming]. I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, And he laid hold on the dragon,... which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. Rev 20:1,2 This thousand years represents the millennia.
---joseph on 3/31/18


Cluny:

You wrote: The correct interpretation of what the Bible teaches is what the Orthodox Church says it does.

Merely stating this without an kind of specific evidence isn't particularly useful. If someone is Orthodox, they will already believe this. If someone is not Orthodox, they won't, and this won't be particularly convincing.

Everybody believes that their own church teaches the correct doctrine. They won't be convinced otherwise without proof.
---StrongAxe on 3/31/18


Michael e: "[He will] stand on the Mount of Olives just as sure as its there tonight"

I think you are speaking of the third coming - not the second one. The Bible says that Jesus' next coming will be in the clouds, and that we will be "caught up" to meet Him in the air - no feet on the ground. That's one way we can distinguish the false Christs that are prophesied - if they are walking on the earth, then they are NOT the real deal.



---jerry6593 on 4/1/18


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Understanding comes with right division. When the last person is brought into the boC, Gods going to take it out of the way. (I Cor 15, 1 Thess 4) Strictly Pauline.
Some refuse the concept of the (non phrophesied) Rapture, and doing that, they exclude Paul.
At His Second Coming, He comes to stand on the Mount of Olives as it says in Zech 14.
Acts 1 He left head first! Hes coming, feet first, to stand on the Mount of Olives just as sure as its there tonight, and that will usher in the Kingdom. And when He comes, were going to come with Him. When He comes at the Rapture, Hes going to come for us. When He comes at the Second Coming, He comes with us.
---michael_e on 3/31/18


Is Left Behind Rapture True?

NO! There is NO second chance.

The ONLY rapture spoken of in scripture is that occurring when Jesus returns, when the righteous living and the newly resurrected righteous dead will be "caught up together in the air" to meet Jesus for the trip to heaven (1Th 4:17).

And yes, there will be a millennial reign with Jesus in heaven (Rev 20:6). After that we'll ride in the New Jerusalem back to the earth to live forever (Rev 21:2).



---jerry6593 on 3/31/18


The correct interpretation of what the Bible teaches is what the Orthodox Church says it does.

There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture. Those wiaiting for it will be among the first to fall down and worship Antichrist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/30/18


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