ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

The John Darby Rapture

While the Rapture has been spoken about by other Protestants, it wasn't until John Darby (1800 to 1882) began spreading Dispensationalism and stories of a Pre-Tribulation rapture that "the Rapture" began to become popular. Does God need to wait 1800 years to reveal a new doctrine?

Join Our Christian Dating and Take The End Times Signs Bible Quiz
 ---Monk_Brendan on 4/2/18
     Helpful Blog Vote (3)

Post a New Blog



Personal attacks are not worth your time, such as Darby and others

David was an adulterer and a murderer. Peter lied. Paul put disciples of the Lord in prison. John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, and many other Bible teachers were arrested as criminals and executed. So, what?

When you hear an argument attacking the man save your time and move on until you meet someone who is wise enough to deal with the doctrine.
---michael_e on 4/16/18


Mike, I totally agree. Finally someone here tells it like it is.

Let's also remember Calvin also murdered, based on infant baptism vs believers baptism. So the Protestant Pope was every bit evil.

No human has any power or right to have any POWER over anothers faith and conscience. We are all going to be held PERSONALLY responsible, and to say..well THE POPE, OR Calvin, or Ellen G White, or Joseph Smith.....won't be an excuse...it only shows you have a gold ring in your nose.....being yanked my your god.
---kathr4453 on 4/16/18


strongaxe

then why does the pope claim to be God on earth? or why does he call himself 'another Christ?' or why did the catholic church burn bibles during the middle ages & kill those who does not accept the teachings of the pope or catholic church. opposing the teachings of Christ IS denying Christ. is mary another way? what about the rosary? or purgatory? why does the pope pushing for one world religion? how can the RCC call itself 'christian' when it rejects the bible?
---mike on 4/16/18


michael_e:

You wrote: When did you ever hear this prayer being prayed?

All too often read news stories that quote war-mongering Christian politicians and preachers who actually say they WANT World War 3 to happen, which will bring on the Apocalypse, so they can be raptured out of it.

Such thoughts are not new. Even Jesus at Gethsemane prayed, "take this cup away from me".


Cluny:

You frequently ask: You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?

This is a pointless question, because most people you ask that of naturally think they DO, and they would ask you the same question (and you would also answer YES).
---StrongAxe on 4/15/18


//I do. You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?//
Absolutely
Now for the erroneous statement you made.
//The dispensationalist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus. You take us OUT of this world//
When did you ever hear this prayer being prayed?
---michael_e on 4/14/18




\\"Christ has risen", Try following the risen Christ as Paul did.
---michael_e on 4/13/18\\

I do. You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/14/18

Did someone forget to change your depends today Cluny?
---kathr4453 on 4/14/18


\\"Christ has risen", Try following the risen Christ as Paul did.
---michael_e on 4/13/18\\

I do. You don't actually think that YOU do, do you?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/14/18


john9346:

I said Jesus was not mentioed by name in OT. What NT says is irrelevant to that issue, as people B.C. did not have the NT. Before NT there is in the OT that links Son of Man with being God. Daniel speaks of Son of Man, but never calls him God.

Elohim is plural (only sometimes), but that does not necessarily imply THREE. Is 6:1-6, 7:3-14, 9:6 never mention the word "Jesus". Is 48:11-16 says "I have called him". It never says "I am he". Heb 1:8-10 is NT and thus irrelevant.

I never said Jesus is not God - only that nowhere in the OT does it actually say he is by name. Stop putting words in my mouth!
---StrongAxe on 4/14/18


There is a great site on line, " The Facts and Flaws of Covenant Theology". Part 1.

I totally agree with, and totally agree with the FLAWS.

I believe Paul taught correct Theology, then the RCC took everyone's bibles away, also anti-Semitic , reconfigured here and there totally overshadowing the Gospel according to the Mystery. Then the reformers came up with REFORMED CATHOLICISM, still overshadowing the Gospel according to the Mystery.

However, GOD IS GREAT, because no matter how hard Satan tries to obscure the TRUTH, it still shines through in every generation. I am so thankful the Lord ( not man) revealed to me the Gospel according to the MYSTERY....which is not SDA RCC or REFORMED or Covenant Theology.
---kathr4453 on 4/14/18


Strongaxe:

"1) In NONE of these verses is Jesus mentioned by name."

False, The NT Authors inspired of the Holy Spirit state that it was the Lord Jesus.

"2) Nowhere are OT messiah figures called God:"

And your point??

"There is no mention of "one like a son of man" being God."

False again the Lord Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of Man." see Dan 7:13-14.
---john9346 on 4/14/18




Strongaxe:

"Is 48:16: The speaker said "the Lord God and his spirit sent me", but does not say he is God."

False again see vs 11-16.

"Ps 45:6 and 102:25-27 mention God, not Jesus

False again, in Heb 1:8-10 the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to declare this is the Lord Jesus...

Strongaxe, did you not know that the Lord Jesus Christ is God sir?? You stated you've been a Christian for about 40 years???
---john9346 on 4/14/18


Strongaxe:

"Is 11:1-2: does not say the Branch is God."

But Isaiah the prophet inspired by the Holy Spirit has already told us that the Lord Jesus is God in Isa 6:1-6, 7:13-14, and 9:6

"When Genesis calls God "us", nowhere does it say "THREE of us"."

Are you aware that Elohim used in Gen 1:2, 26, 3:22-23, 11:7-8 is plural sir????
---john9346 on 4/14/18


Covenant Theology is Calvinism, and began during the reformation. It seems those who say they believe in Covenant Theology are not Calvinist's , I find are the ones confused and even more confusing say those who believe in dispensationalism don't know what they believe or why.

Darby did not start dispensationalism , Paul did, when he clearly taught the Gospel according to the MYSTERY was hidden in the OT but now revealed in the New. Paul shows the MYSTERY according to Colossians 1, 2 and 3 draw very defined line that the Church is not under the sabbath, is dead to this world and HIDDEN with God in Christ.

So those who don't believe, obey or understand ALL of Colossians are actually those who are confused.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/18


//NONE of the ancient Christian writers refer to it// WRONG Paul refers to it several time.
//The dispensationalist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus. You take us OUT of this world//
You haven't actually heard that prayer have you?
"Christ has risen", Try following the risen Christ as Paul did.
---michael_e on 4/13/18


It has been my experience that those who do not believe in dispensations know little of right division. Every one is dispensational to some degree and don't know it
---michael_e on 4/13/18


It has been my experience that many who believe in Dispensationalism do not understand or know what the entire doctrine is. I have the Scoffield Dispensationalist bible. I admit I have not read it all. But I have read a explanation in detail from A Baylor professor on what it is. As well as a book by a Presbyterian Scholar on why it is incorrect.

So my point is those who defend it. Need to at least look up what it is and the points it teaches.

It is not a good idea to defend something you don't know. I believe to defend or approve of something that both sides need to be read, and understood.

AGape
---Samuelbb7 on 4/13/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Insurance


Clun is right. The main protestant theory before dispensationalism was Covenant Theology.

The two share some aspects. Such as continuing advancement of knowledge. But we live and act under the New Covenant today. Not a new dispensation. Covenants were made with Adam, Noah and Abraham way before the one with Israel and Moses. Each adding more till the coming of Jesus who established the New Covenant.

Churches taught the Ten Commandments were for Christians till Darby said no. Even the Orthodox proclaimed them and the teaching the church is Israel. Till Darby came up with his novel theory. Although some trace his futurism. To some Jesuits.

Follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/13/18


First of all, the believers in the Old and New Testaments, are the same people, the elect. They are all the body of Christ, in the New and in the Old. They are all the Church of Christ, who will later be the holy bride of Christ.
---Luke on 4/13/18


\\It wasn't John Darby who began spreading Dispensationalism and a Pre-Tribulation rapture.\\

Yes, it was.

The doctrine of a pre-trib raptuer is NOWHERE in the Bible.

NONE of the ancient Christian writers refer to it.

At the Mystical Supper, the Savior prayed, "I ask that you do NOT take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one." The dispensationalist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus. You take us OUT of this world."

Which prayer do you think the Father is more likely to answer?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/13/18


It wasn't John Darby who began spreading Dispensationalism and a Pre-Tribulation rapture.
Studying the Bible dispensationally is not an invented theology.
It comes from believing the Bible. While people will argue over what is a dispensation, no one can dispute that the word is in the Bible and must be interpreted.
Paul was given a dispensation (Eph 3:2).
There are different revelations from God at different times. Some of these dispense new information about how he deals with us, and how we ought to respond in faith.
Ephesians 2, Galatians 3, and Romans 5 explain changes that occur as a result of Gods revelations and dispensations.
---michael_e on 4/12/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Dating


DISPENSATIONALISM has nothing to do with what one believes to be Covenant Theology.

We have :
THe EVERLASTING COVENANT
The OLD COVENANT
The NEW COVENANT
The DAVIDIC COVENANT. Even the Covenant God made with Noah to never flood the earth again.

Don't compare apples to oranges and say...I believe in oranges. Apples are a lie. How silly is that.

Paul clearly saysin Ephesians...a "dispensation of GRACE has been committed to me. " 1Cor 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, 3:2, Colossians 1:25.

So if GOD spoke these words, it would behoove one to find out what GOD MEANT rather than say....no no I don't believe God, because I don't understand it.

So BOTH covenant and dispensation is used in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 4/12/18


Agreed Mark. I too oppose dispensationalism. Covenant Theology is the correct view.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/11/18


Dispensationalists do not believe the Church replaced Israel. What would be a secret about that, or a mystery not revealed until Jesus rose from the dead? I will admit there are different doctrines and some extreme on the subject.

The NATION of Israel we are not, and never will be. The CHURCH is a new creature, neither Jew or Gentile. The promises to the NATION OF ISRAEL, are still going to come to pass. Isaiah 14:7 for starters has not happened. That should be a smoking gun for those who KNOW that has never happened yet. God is still going to keep those promises. The CHURCH did not nullify those promises. When all the world is at REST, that's when Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years.
---kathr4453 on 4/11/18


Again another additional blessing in this dispensation called GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18

I think everyone is misunderstanding what I am saying.

I am saying there is a new covenant, initiated by Jesus, with new and better promises. Such as Christ in us. Such as grace and mercy. The old covenant is obsolete. As a result, God deals with us differently.

Is this a new dispensation? Perhaps, depending on what you define dispensations to be. It is definitely a change but the errors of dispensationalism (such as the church replacing Israel) prevent me from using the word dispensation.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/11/18


Send a Free Thank You Ecard


Sorry for the typo. "crucified" with Christ Also was not available under the Law, NOR can be lived while under the Law...Romans 6-8 is AFTER the CROSS.

Anyone who has read Hebrews 11 will see it takes you through Adam to Moses, and Moses to or right before Jesus...ALL HAVING DIED IN FAITH.
But non of those died with CHRIST IN THEM. Hebrews 12 tell us TODAY, these are the spirits of JUST MEN MADE PERFECT. Their perfection came AFTER Jesus died and rose again.

Having died "without the promise" does not mean the promise of salvation.

The JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH, began in Genesis....
---kathr4453 on 4/11/18


Mark_Eaton, it's always been by faith in every dispensation. We see at the end of Hebrews 11, after a whole chapter on faith, it says that they all died NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISE. Paul states in Galatians that the PROMISE was the promise of the Holy Spirit. We also see in the OT the promise of the Holy Spirit, was promised with the New Covenant. So TODAY we have an additional blessing in this dispensation....that is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In the OT the HS was only UPON, not IN. And only UPON Kings Prophets and Priests.

Also no one in the OT could possibly be criticized with Christ and raised up together with Him a NEW CREATURE. Again another additional blessing in this dispensation called GRACE. Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18


I don't believe any doctrine on the Blessed Trinity was ever taught in the OT or the New, as the phrase is not even mentioned. We do have in the NT Jesus saying to Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but there was never anything like that stated in the OLD.

So it is a little presumptuous of John to make such a declaration. Emanuel means God with us, but Jesus wasn't named Emanuel. He was named Jesus. In the OT His name was called THE WORD OF GOD, JUST LIKE IT SAYS IN REVELATION. It's still His Name.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18


That was not available in the OT
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18

Please tell me how the Jews were saved in the OT? God saved in the OT the same way as the NT, by faith.

You are correct, no one was in Christ before the Incarnation. However, Paul tells us that the Gospel of Jesus was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8).

As far as the HS being involved in the OT, we need only go to the second verse of Genesis.

Jesus, changed it all. He is the only change of dispensation. Without Him, there is no indwelling.

However, I would amend your last statement to say "forgiveness takes place before repentance or faith".
---Mark_Eaton on 4/10/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Treatments


Acts19: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Well here are some folks, I'm sure very knowledgable Jews who as you said knew all about the Trinity...However...THE PROMISE OF Christ in you, via the Holy Spirit, The very core that forms the NT CHURCH...being baptized into Christ...they did not know. That was not available in the OT nor did John the Baptist preach it. As this MYSTERY was not revealed in the OT. Christ in you, Colossians 1:24-27 also a different dispensation) That's what the folks in Acts 19 were missing. They also prove no regeneration takes place before FAITH .......in ANY dispensation.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/18


Isaiah 53:6 - All Like sheep have gone astray : we have turn every one to his own way: And the Lord has laid on Him The Iniquity of us all,

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.

Hosea 13:4 - Yet I am the Lord thy God from the Land of Egypt, and thou shalt know god but me, There is No Saviour beside me.
---RichardC on 4/9/18


john9346:

You wrote: False because the OT Authors did possess a knowledge of the Lord Jesus and the "Blessed Trinity."

1) In NONE of these verses is Jesus mentioned by name.
2) Nowhere are OT messiah figures called God:
There is no mention of "one like a son of man" being God.
Is 48:16: The speaker said "the Lord God and his spirit sent me", but does not say he is God.
Is 11:1-2: does not say the Branch is God
Ps 45:6 and 102:25-27 mention God, not Jesus
3) There is no mention of Trinity:
When Genesis calls God "us", nowhere does it say "THREE of us".
---StrongAxe on 4/10/18


strongaxe said, "Since they didn't know Jesus nor the Trinity, it was impossible for them to start their theology with Jesus or the Trinity."

False because the OT Authors did possess a knowledge of the Lord Jesus and the "Blessed Trinity."

See, Daniel 7:13-14, 9:26, Isa 53,Ps. 22, Gen 1:26, 3:22-23, 11:7-8, Isa 48:16 11:1-2, Ps. 45:6, and Ps. 102:25-27.

The word son in Hebrew doesn't always mean
---john9346 on 4/9/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Affiliate Program


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: We were talking about dispensations, not about specific groups. As NT believers, we must start our theology with Jesus.

I specifically said that God dealt with people at different times in different ways, because they did not have access to Jesus or the Trinity at that time. I was speaking that God's way of dealing with people has changed over time.
---StrongAxe on 4/9/18


Strongaxe:

Sir, respectfully do you understand the usage of the title used Son of God in Job 2:1 and Gen 6:2? Do you understand why the NT Authors used, "Ho Hyios Theos." in Greek meaning The Son of God when referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The answer is in the Book of John.
---john9346 on 4/9/18


Since they didn't know Jesus nor the Trinity, it was impossible for them to start their theology with Jesus or the Trinity.
---StrongAxe on 4/9/18

We were talking about dispensations, not about specific groups. As NT believers, we must start our theology with Jesus.

In OT, God seldom dealt with people individually. But, grace, mercy, and kindness were Gods attributes. God wanted a contrite heart and humble spirit which are the attributes of Jesus. However, few wanted a personal relationship with God, only David comes to mind. They wanted a recipe relationship, put in this, take out this, and blam, you have forgiveness.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/9/18


StrongAxe said, "I don't recall us discussing this, so I'm curious how you would know what I believe about it.

Baiting? I just challenged "Why would God wait 1800 years to give new revelation?", as he had done so several times in the past."


StrongAxe, we have had many off line, private conversations, and you have told me you do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.

And yes, you are/were giving me a hard time, because you know my views too.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/9/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Abortion Facts


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: Are you saying that the God of the OT is a different God than Jesus?

No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. did not know Jesus. Jesus was not mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament. The Jews of the Old Testament sometimes refer to God as Father, but never as Son. (One might retroactively read Jesus into it, but he is never mentioned by name, nor is there any mention of a pre-existent Word that created everything, nor of a divine Trinity).

Since they didn't know Jesus nor the Trinity, it was impossible for them to start their theology with Jesus or the Trinity.
---StrongAxe on 4/9/18


They couldn't "start their theology with Jesus and the Trinity", as they didn't know them yet...
---StrongAxe on 4/6/18

Are you saying that the God of the OT is a different God than Jesus?

Perhaps, it was the author's personal perspective.

Abraham after nearly sacrificing Isaac could have said that The Father was a god that required child sacrifice and blood. Yet, the location Abraham came from (Ur) served idols that required child sacrifice. So we can say The Father dealt with Abraham in a way Abraham could understand.

Don't good parents deal with all their children fairly but individually?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/9/18


"The saints that are in the tribulations are those who have been saved during this terrible time." John I know that you do not consider me a Christian, but I am asking you, Christian, how exactly would that be possible when "the son of perdition" stands in the temple of God declaring himself to be God? The deception of that time shows great signs and wonders, so great that if it were possible antichrists would deceive even the very elect. I'm thinking that statement suggest that a lot of people will be deceived during that time, but it also suggest that without the established and enduring saints, no one would be saved.
---joseph on 4/9/18


michael_e:

This has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with what the words of the Bible ACTUALLY say. You said: Jesus instructs us to follow Paul, which is not precisely true. In the verses you quoted earlier, Paul told us to follow Paul, but Jesus did not. In Acts 9:15, which you are only just quoting now, the Lord spoke to Ananias and not to us. I'm not saying that what you said is not true, merely that it is not entirely accurate.

John 13:20 says whoever accepts the messenger accepts the sender, but you cannot infer the converse
(i.e. he who rejects the messenger rejects the sender). Anyone who is British is human, but you can't infer from this that if someone isn't British, he isn't human.
---StrongAxe on 4/9/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Acne Treatment


StrongAxe
This is a common response from those who fear making too much of Paul will diminish the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul isn't Christ, but Christ sent Paul.(Acts 9:15).
Christ sent Paul to speak for him. When they heard Paul, they were hearing Gods words.(1 Thess 2:13)
Paul spoke the commandments of the Lord.(1 Cor 14:37)
These commandments were given to him directly from the Lord Jesus.( Gal 1:12 1 Thess 4:2)
To receive the Lord, we are required to receive Paul. As the Lord commands: (John 13:20)
Paul responded to rejections in almost every epistle he wrote.(1 Cor 11:1
2 Cor 11:5 1Thess 4:8)
If anyone rejects Paul, they reject Christ.
---michael_e on 4/9/18


michael_e:

Strictly speaking, there is nowhere in the Bible where Jesus himself tells us to follow Paul.
In 1 Tim 1:16, Paul relates his experience with Jesus. Jesus is not speaking.
In 1 Cor 4:16 and 1 Cor 11:1, Paul tells us to follow Paul.


mike:

You say the Pope will be the antichrist (as some like Seventh Day Adventists and Confessional Lutherans do). Any such claim is premature, as we won't know who the Beast is until he is revealed. Nobody will be able to buy or sell without receiving his mark, and the Vatican is nowhere near having that kind of power now, nor any time soon.

The bible says "antichrist" is someone who denies Jesus came in the flesh. Catholics do NOT do this.
---StrongAxe on 4/8/18


Mid-Acts dispensational Bible study recognizes the importance of the mystery of Christ revealed to Paul as doctrine particular to the church in the present dispensation (Rom 16:25, Col 1:25-27, Eph 3:2-4).
Mid-Acts Bible study teaches the most important distinction to be the right division between Gods Mystery purpose, kept secret since the world began, and Gods Prophecy purpose, which had been spoken since the world began (Acts 3:19-21 vs. Rom 16:25).
Jesus instructs us to follow Paul as our pattern (1 Tim 1:16, 1 Cor 4:16, 1 Cor 11:1).
Christs' second coming is prophesied, the rapture was a mystery{secret) until revealed to Paul
---michael_e on 4/7/18


joseph said, "Because John, as I alluded earlier, Father's wrath is pour out upon those who worshipped the beast, received his mark, advocated a conformity to his deception,"

Sir, exactly because this is what is happening in the Great Tribulation that is a result of God's Wrath.

In Rev chapters 6, 7, 9,13, 15, and 16 John The Apostle states these times are God's Wrath poured out on sinners.

The saints that are in the tribulations are those who have been saved during this terrible time.

But I'd rather not discuss this here on this blog when there are those here who reject Essential Christian Faith such as the Trinity, the bible, and justification by faith alone.

Take Care,

John
---john9346 on 4/7/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Bad Credit Loans


Again, a correction. This statement should read "Father's wrath is poured out upon those who worshipped the beast, received his mark, advocated a conformity to his deception, and participated in the tribulation [of] His saints." I read my responses over and over again before I send them and still somehow miss little things that completely alter what I am attempting to convey. That is until after they are posted, totally frustrating, yet no ones fault but my own. My apologies.
---joseph on 4/7/18


rapture is a LIE. in the last days YOU WILL BE tested whether you will obey Christ or obey the pope (antichrist) like those who experience it in the bible. that is why rapture is a lie.
---mike on 4/6/18


john9346:

New ideas always inspire hostility, regardless of where they come from, or even if they are true.


Mark_Eaton:

Based on how the Bible says God dealt with people, which was different in each period. God punished wickedness by a flood once, but promised that he never would again. Before Moses, people didn't the Law. Before Jesus, they didn't have grace. They couldn't "start their theology with Jesus and the Trinity", as they didn't know them yet.

It's easy to argue in retrospect when one has the whole library, but people then didn't, so they couldn't see the big picture. God's attitude was similarly constrained, as the OT was full of much simiting, plagues, and retribution, but little forgiveness.
---StrongAxe on 4/6/18


John asked me "Why don't you think the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath"?

Because John, as I alluded earlier, Father's wrath is pour out upon those who worshipped the beast, received his mark, advocated a conformity to his deception, and participated in the tribulation His saints. When? At His Son's return, in His presence, and the presence of His Angels. Rev. 14:9-11 The start of that wrath is represented in Mat 24:29-31 It is at that time that the wicked shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming as He takes vengeance on them, 2 Thes 2:8 and the end thereof they "shall be punished with an everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". 2 Thes 1:8,9
---joseph on 4/6/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Bankruptcy


Despite the fact that "God never changes", the way he has dealt with man has been vastly different in each age...
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18

Based upon what, our understanding?

What nobody here seems to know or remember, is that the Bible is a library, with many books, written by many authors, having many purposes, spanning thousands of years. And none of these authors "know" God according to Jesus (Matt. 11:27).

That is why it is essential to start our theology with Jesus and the Trinity and work out, not work from Genesis to Jesus. Jesus, The Father, and the HS, have been in relationship since before time. Understanding their relationship, changes how we see God's relationship with us.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/6/18


Steveng, even today in America a Christian is persecuted. It matters not where you live folks, or what time in history, every born again Christian will enter in through much tribulation. Being crucified to the world and world to us even today happens in America. Believe me, the fellowship of His sufferings is perfectly planned out by God regardless of where or when you live. Even Moses is said to have left the riches of Egypt to suffer for Christ. So Moses wasn't persecuted while still enjoying the riches of Egypt. Egypt represents the WORLD. And just as we see not all who came out of Egypt entered into the PROMISED land...was not Gods fault or plan. But it was the consequences of NO FAITH. Steveng, not everyone in the end will be saved.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/18


strongaxe said, "Regardless of what you call it, any time new ideas occur ANYWHERE, from ANY source, in any CONTEXT, such ideas are almost always opposed by those who embody the previous ideology,"

First, its vital to know Categorical Terminology because you might be arguing for something you don't believe in and against something you do believe in...

Revelation is not allumination and allumination is not revelation.

Ideas that are new are supposed to be judge by the standard of "Once-for-all Given." Revelation. Its illogical to not do so. When the Lord Jesus rebuked the pharisees he did so based on "Once-for-all Given." Revelatio and nothing else...
---john9346 on 4/6/18


Joseph ask, "Where, specifically is that stated of implied? Please point out the verses."

Joseph, remember, there are various forms of the judgment in the chapters you reference and I referenced of Revelation.

Why don't you think the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath?
---john9346 on 4/6/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Cash Advance


It's not the EXCUSE that I give, it is written in the bible. What are the two reasons written in the bible why people fall away from the faith?

It's true that christians have been persecuted throughout all of history, but the bible is speaking about the GREAT tribulation where every person is to be affected. The christians in the civilized world never had to worry about being persecuted. They thought they were safe from persecution, but The Great Tribulation will change all that. The Great tribulation will surely test their faith. This is why end time christians want to believe in the pretribulation rapture - to feel they are safe from the tribulation. It's human nature NOT to want to die.
---Steveng on 4/6/18


And the final dispensation of how God deals with man will be during the 1000 year reign. During this dispensation SATAN WILL BE BOUND. Here will be a dispensation where man cannot say" THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT". All through the OT it was promised that Jesus Christ will sit on the Throne of David...meaning HERE...on the earth. Gods throne in heaven is NOT called the throne of David.

Scriptures are steeped with this time, and the RULES attached. Kingdom LAW RUILING with a ROD OF IRON. This time does NOT describe Heaven....
Please rightly divide.

OH! And the BOC ( having already been GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM is promised to rule and reign WITH CHRIST at this time. That's another reason why WE are raptured out.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/18


Steveng, I find it extremely sad that the excuse you give why Christians want to be raptured is because they are afraid of persecution. Is the Great tribulation the ONLY time Christians are persecuted? Heavens no. Christians have suffered and been persecuted from the time Cain murdered his brother.

But the Great Tribulation is not about Christians being persecuted. TODAY is the time Christians are being persecuted. And because WE have undergone the fellowship of His sufferings in every age, we do not need to or are required to suffer the WRATH OF GOD.....the WRATH Of GOD is actually for those who rejected the Gospel and the fellowship of His sufferings.
---kathr453 on 4/6/18


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: I believe the Father, Son, and Spirit had one plan from the beginning, to include us in their Trinitarian life, and Jesus was the way.

Despite the fact that "God never changes", the way he has dealt with man has been vastly different in each age, e.g.:
1. Adam, culminating in the Fall
2. Man, culminating in the Flood
3. Noah and his descendants
4. The Abrahamic Covanant
5. The Mosaic Covenant
6. Jesus and the New Covenant
7. The Tribulation
8. The Millenium
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Counseling


Why are end time "christians" so vain to think they are more special to be saved from persecution by the so-called rapture than all the christians throughout history, and even today, who have been persecuted and killed.

The rapture is the false deception created by Satan. Those who receive the "Mark of the Beast" won't think it's the Mark of the Beast because they believe that they will be raptured before the coming of the Mark of the Beast. Denominational christians, counterfeit christians, weak christians will receive the Mark of the Beast, unknowingly. True christians are to endure until the last day.
---Steveng on 4/5/18


Jesus is the focus of every dispensation. Here's the thing many don't get.....between the Old Covenant and the new is a DISPENSATION. Today is the dispensation of GRACE! NOT LAW. And before The Law was another. Romans 5 show these dispensations, and not one take away from Jesus Christ. From Adam to Moses, there was NO LAW, yet there was accountability and FAITH . FAITH was/ is and will always be the central point...that is faith in JESUS CHRIST although no one knew Him by that name before He was made flesh.

Moses to Jesus, is another dispensation, where specific promises were promised to the NATION of Israel, that WILL come to pass as Romans 11 clearly show.

Ephesians clearly mention the term dispensation.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Dispensationalism is a false teaching...
---Samuelbb7 on 4/5/18

While I too believe that Dispensationalism is false teaching, I do not think we agree on why.

I believe the Father, Son, and Spirit had one plan from the beginning, to include us in their Trinitarian life, and Jesus was the way.

Everything in the entire COSMOS revolves around that plan. The creation, the fall, the family of Abraham, the nation of Israel, the time in history, the country in the earth, and the events of birth, life, death, and ascension of Jesus.

The error of Dispensationalism is that it takes the focus off of Jesus and puts it on us. No doctrine should ever do that.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/5/18


Mark, Revelation state the First resurrection happens before the 1000 year reign....so no, the first resurrection does not happen last. Then it states those in the first resurrection will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 years.

So the real issue here is not the rapture, but many do not believe in the millennial kingdom reign where Jesus is KING on the earth. This is clearly stated in Matthew 24-25 and Zechariah 12-14, and also Isaiah 60-66. The CHURCH did not replace those promises to Earthly Israel. And ALL OF EZEKIEL 36 has not yet been fulfilled and won't until that time.
Again also look at Isaiah 14. These promises cannot be swept under the rug. This is also predestined and God cannot lie.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Relief


"Sir, see, Rev 6, 9, and 16 that states the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath.." This line was meant tto read "Where, specifically is that stated or implied?"
---joseph on 4/5/18


"Sir, see, Rev 6, 9, and 16 that states the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath.." Where, specifically is that stated of implied? Please point out the verses. Those chapters seem to refer mostly to things that take place after the trib. According to Rev. 14:9 the wrath is poured out upon those who worshipped the beast and received his mark, not by them. They will be tormented "in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb". The when of this torment is documented in 2 Thes 1:10 Other refs Isa 13:6,9>Jer 46:10>Amo 5:18, the day of the Lord is the day of His return, and "that day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation," Zep 1:15.
---joseph on 4/5/18


john9346:

You wrote: Allumination is what we recognize from once given revelation.

Regardless of what you call it, any time new ideas occur ANYWHERE, from ANY source, in any CONTEXT, such ideas are almost always opposed by those who embody the previous ideology, which at one time was someone else's new idea. The heirs of Moses became the Pharisees of Jesus's day. Today's liberal thinkers always become tomorrow's conservative thinkers.
---StrongAxe on 4/5/18


Good points Mark.

John Darbys plan leads away from following the Bible. It brings darkness not light.

Dispensationalism is a false teaching. It ignores what the Bible says about who is the true Israelite and dismisses the entire Old Testament and makes it of none effect.

I have also found that most people do not even understand it. Many who follow it. Believe that the law saved people in the Old Testament which is false. Grace alone saves.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/5/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Settlement


Does God need to wait 1800 years to reveal a new doctrine?
---Monk_Brendan on 4/2/18

I used to believe in a PreMillennial "catching" away, substantiated in 1 Thess. 4, 2 Thess. 1, and 1 Cor. 15.

However, I no longer believe it because of the contradiction it causes with Daniel, and with The Revelation.

Specifically, the contradiction is contained in this verse:

1 Thess. 4:16 " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

The dead rising is the Resurrection. We know the Resurrection happens last. The trumpet blast is the Last Trumpet, also happening last.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/5/18


strongaxe said, "Each dispensation believes it has a monopoly on God's revelation, and strongly resists anything that comes after it."

But John Nelson Darby's Pretribulational Rapture is a fact of allumination and not revelation.

Revelation has all ready been given once and for all see Jude 1:3. The reformation was another fact of allumination not revelation. The reformers believed the church had gotten away from "Revelation." that was the Holy Scriptures. This is why the Reformation Cry of, "Sola Scriptura." was paramount to the reformers. Sola Scriptura a principle is allumination not revelation.

Allumination is what we recognize from once given revelation.
---john9346 on 4/5/18


joseph said, "John9346 the "great tribulation isn't God's wrath, it involves a great deception."

Sir, see, Rev 6, 9, and 16 that states the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath part of God's Wrath is God Almighty granting deception.

Those of us who are God's Elect are not appointed to wrath because we have been saved from it...
---john9346 on 4/5/18


I believe scripture does teach a rapture, however it is included in the Gospel according to the MYSTERY, that wasn't revealed until Jesus rose from the dead. Paul clearly teaches the Church or BOC will meet the Lord in the Clouds, meaning we are going up, before Jesus touches down. Jesus second coming IS the wrath of God, of which we are SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME. This wrath is the Great Tribulation, AKA "the Time of Jacobs Trouble", spelled out in the OT. This is NOT to the Church. The Church is NOT Israel.

Just as Enoch was translated out ( CHURCH) PRIOR to Noah's flood show a pattern of things to come. Zechariah 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Distance Learning


Monk_Brendan:

I don't recall us discussing this, so I'm curious how you would know what I believe about it.

Baiting? I just challenged "Why would God wait 1800 years to give new revelation?", as he had done so several times in the past.

Each dispensation believes it has a monopoly on God's revelation, and strongly resists anything that comes after it. This happened with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and will continue to happen any time God says anything new. The Protestant Reformation happened as a result of corruption and decadence in the Catholic church, and instead of acknowledging problems, repenting of them, and fixing them, the Church fought the Reformation tooth and nail, just as Pharisees fought Jesus.
---StrongAxe on 4/4/18


John9346 the "great tribulation isn't God's wrath, it involves a great deception. The second coming of Jesus brings the wrath of God. 2Th 1:7-9. The saints are protected in that they are glorified in Him "in that day." verse 10.
---joseph on 4/4/18


Monk Brendan,

To your point i'm going to look in the fathers to see if they ever gave any idea to a Pretribulational Rapture.

I do believe in a Pretribulational Rapture,however, I am kind of open as well. I don't concern myself with much of Endtime Interpretations because it is a Secondary Issue a Nonessential in Biblical Christianity.
---john9346 on 4/4/18


Monk Brendan asked, "But can you tell me why a pre-millenium Rapture is necessary, or even in the Bible?"

Well first hello and how are you?

Next, the teaching of the rapture is the teaching that The Great Tribulation is God's Wrath poured out on Sinners and those who God have all ready elected to salvation are not appointed to wrath,therefore, God will save them preserve them from this time.

Within the Rapture Teaching there are 2 camps Pre and mid.
---john9346 on 4/4/18


Read These Insightful Articles About Education


StrongAxe saide, " Did God need to wait 1500 years between Moses and Jesus to reveal a new covenant? If one is reasonable, why is the other not reasonable?"

You're a big help!

I know you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, so why are you baiting me?

In the first place, God needed the time to put the Law into place and make sure it was in their heart. In the second, God did not give us new direction with dispensationalism. We already had the straight Gospel, we didn't need anything else.
---Monk_Brendan on 4/4/18


"Does God need to wait 1800 years to reveal a new doctrine?" No.
Father, as far as I know, has not revealed any doctrine not found in the pages of scripture.
---joseph on 4/3/18


Did God need to wait 1500 years between Moses and Jesus to reveal a new covenant? If one is reasonable, why is the other not reasonable?
---StrongAxe on 4/3/18


Copyright© 2017 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.