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How Does God Prove Himself

How does God prove Himself to you?

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 ---Bill on 5/9/18
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God proves his existence to me through the wonder of nature, among other things.
---Johnny74 on 9/9/18


At times, I can get self-righteously critical of others, and God corrects me to first be concerned about how I myself need correction. Then have compassion on ones who are wrong >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Yes, there are ones who stray from obeying how God rules us in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

But if we trust in Jesus, He will keep correcting us so our attention is to obeying Him with "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)
---Bill on 8/25/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You specifically cited the AAREG article. In that very article, it did NOT say the N word meant "acting in a lazy and irresponsible manner." as you claimed. It said that description applied to NAGGERS, not the N word.

Reread the AAREG article carefully. The N word was derived from "black", and has always meant "black", according to BOTH the AAREG article and the Merriam-Webster dictionary, although it also has negative connotations.

But again, this discussion is far off the rails and has nothing to do with blog topic.
---StrongAxe on 6/6/18


StrongAxe: You should have read the AAREG article more carefully. "Acting in a lazy and irresponsible manner." is not the meaning of the N word, but of "NAGGERS", a similar, but different word, which also means means "people who nags".//

Nooo, you don't know how White people a century ago with southern accents calling Black People the N word in a certain dialect.

My Grandmother said that's why they stopped White people from calling us Negro.
Because they would say it so quickly they would say the N word instead.

But when confronted they would say they said 'Negro' not N word.

So Black people demand to be known as 'color' instead.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/5/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Thank you. You should have read the AAREG article more carefully. "Acting in a lazy and irresponsible manner." is not the meaning of the N word, but of "NAGGERS", a similar, but different word, which also means means "people who nags".

One episode of South Park examined the prohibited speech by playing on the similarity between those two words.

This is a country of 350+ million people, most of whom aren't babies. Should our company's policies should be based ENTIRELY on what babies need, and TOTALLY IGNORE what everyone else needs? That is what one-issue voters believe, and it's wrong.

I Do NOT support abortion, and yours and Haz27's lies that I do don't change that fact.
---StrongAxe on 6/5/18




StrongAxe, enter the whole statement with AAREG

//I've repeatedly said abortion is tragic.//

TRAGIC? Suppose the same Candidates allowed school shooting as long as the Shooter is the mother and ONLY shoots her kid?

Would you support that and we must understand your response?

//Abortion is not the ONLY issue.//

FOR THE BABY YES IT IS!

If the Jewish Holocaust was still going and people wanted to stop it and close down all the gas chambers, you wouldn't say it not the ONLY ISSUE now would you?

//Each political candidate represents represents a grab bag of different issues, and when you support that candidate, you get them all.//

EXACTLY! See why Haz and I state you SUPPORT abortion?
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/5/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Sorry, I have no idea what AAREG is, and googling it didn't help.

I've repeatedly said abortion is tragic. What part of that do you not understand?

Abortion is not the ONLY issue. Each political candidate represents represents a grab bag of different issues, and when you support that candidate, you get them all.

Trump voters choke on issues Jesus never talked about (abortion, LGBT) while swallowing camels he condemned (divorce, adultery, defrauding business partners, lying, lack of humility).

The caring comment was that Republican claims to be pro-life are hypocritical if they abandon children once they are born (which our politicians currently do).
---StrongAxe on 6/5/18


StrongAxe, I cited AAREG 'N word a brief history' which speaks about the word evolved.

//Like Haz27, this is projecting everything left onto me just because I share some ideals that are left of center.//

No, it's your lack of support for anti-abortion and your overwhelming support for Political Candidates supporting abortion.

You said MANY TIMES how Republicans only care for the first 9 months of the babies lives and Democrats care from birth to 21 years.

That's like saying a man cared about me when he stopped another man from killing me. But the same man didn't cared enough to visit me in the hospital.

I am grateful he stopped the man from killing me.

Why is he required to console me after he SAVED me?
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/4/18


Nicole_Lacey:

Thank you. Which dictionary are you using? I cited Merriam Webster, which said it was a pejorative but didn't say the meaning had changed.

I suppose you're right in some ways, but here's one case where my reasoning still applies. A says or does something to B that doesn't offend B or that B gets over, but C (who isn't involved) is outraged anyway. That's what happens with political correctness gone out of control.

Because you were offended with the school shooting, but not with abortion saying it's a woman's choice. Even though a baby is killed.

When have I ever said that? Like Haz27, this is projecting everything left onto me just because I share some ideals that are left of center.
---StrongAxe on 6/4/18


StrongAxe, I will APOLOGIZE. I was showing how giving allowance for some to say a racist word can lead you down a presumption of thinking from others

BTW, the dictionary changed the meaning. That' why I cited the source of the change of the N word.

Again your logic of thinking isn't logical. As it applies to abortion and those in the past about slavery.

Either it bothers you or it doesn't?

Your offenses scenario is ridiculous and really don't follow the offense rule.

Because you were offended with the school shooting, but not with abortion saying it's a woman's choice. Even though a baby is killed.

A person is offended when robbed, raped, slapped, and etc.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/4/18




Nicole_Lacey:

The word you put in my mouth were "AGAIN you are applying the Black people are lazy and irresponsible."
I never said that, nor did I imply it. Whether or not I am personally offended by the N word, or whether black people can use it to each other is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the above.

Read about taking up offenses. If Alex insults Bob, Bob has the right to be offended, but God gives him the grace to forgive. However, if Charlie feels offended that Alex insults Bob, Charlie is taking up an offense that isn't his business - and God makes no provision for giving him the grace to overcome that.

I think using the N word is rude, but it isn't my place to be offended by it, because it's none of my business.
---StrongAxe on 6/3/18


StrongAxe: I did NOT say that. Why do you attack me for words YOU put in my mouth?//

I didn't, you had the nerve to say the N word doesn't offend you. As if it's okay for a person can call each other N word as long as they are Black.

***I am not personally offended by the N word, but think it's rude to others to use it outside of certain extremely narrow contexts (e.g. "Never say 'n*****' in polite company.").---StrongAxe on 5/28/18

YOUR WORDS not mine.

In other words it doesn't offend you because you are White! A White person can't call me the N word, but a Black person CAN!

How else am I to perceive those words?

Either the word offends you or it doesn't. No such thing as being in the middle.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/2/18


Nicole_Lacey:

When Haz27 calls me a Marxist, he isn't doing it to be factual, because I am not a Marxist, and I loathe what Marxism and communism entail, and I have said this multiple times. Instead, he calls me a Marxist purely to insult me.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/18


Samuel: hmmm a White person because he is liberal or leftist to use the pejorative term hates him or her self.//

???

Pejorative term on yourself?

Respect yourself.

StrongAxe: Haz27 calling me a Marxist is an insult. Stalin calling Lenin a Marxist is not.//

Marxist means you espouse yourself with the thinking of Karl Marx.

If I said I believe in free trade without Government interference. Wouldn't you call me a Capitalist?

You don't realize you say the same things Marx's said FIRST. His vision.

Marxism is the SAME as communism.

The ONLY difference is that Marxism was a theory, but Communism is the actual implementation of Marxism done by Lenin. Socialist is Light Communism
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/2/18


Nicole_Lacey:

I did NOT say that. Why do you attack me for words YOU put in my mouth?

I said it was from Spanish and Latin words for BLACK, which is why it applies to black people. I never said lazy and irresponsible, and neither does Merriam-Webster:

used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person or a member of any dark-skinned race.
(now) a member of a class or group of people who are systematically subjected to discrimination and unfair treatment


I can't use those words HERE because this site's policies don't allow it. Many words are sometimes acceptable and sometimes not, but filters always flag them, e.g. the 30th Olympiad because 3 Xs in a row is automatically assumed to be naughty.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/18


StrongAxe, you are confused. White people in the past mixed the N word with another the words Na... that means acting in a lazy and irresponsible manner --AAREG N (the word) a brief history.

They changed the word to combine with the true word 'negro/negra so the Black people would KNOW the derogatory term was made specially for Black people.

//It makes sense that it's applied to black people, because that's what the word actually means.//

AGAIN you are applying the Black people are lazy and irresponsible.

//I have observed that it's apparently acceptable for people in certain groups to use pejoratives terms among themselves//

Name a derogatory used in other races?

You can't because it ISN'T allowed.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/2/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

The N word is a variant of "negro/negra" which is the Spanish word that literally means "Black". Being Puerto Rican, I would expect you would know this. It comes from the Latin word "niger/negra/negrum" which literally means "black". It makes sense that it's applied to black people, because that's what the word actually means. It doesn't make sense to apply it to white people.

It's not MY decision about who may or may not use certain words. However, I have observed that it's apparently acceptable for people in certain groups to use pejoratives terms among themselves that are otherwise considered extremely rude when used by others outside their groups.
---StrongAxe on 6/1/18


StrongAxe: It's unlikely that a black person would call a white person the N word. It wouldn't make any sense!//

I HAVE heard Black people calling White people the N word.

Why wouldn't that make any sense?

Are you CLAIMING only Black people should be called the N word? Why?

Have you seen the definition of the N word? It means a stupid or ignorant person.

So are you suggestion ONLY Black people can be ignorant or stupid? Not a White person?

Do you see why NO ONE should say the N word?

When you speak out to say a certain group SHOULD be allowed to use that word it can get you into trouble?

Why don't you just AGREE that NO ONE SHOULD USE THE N WORD?

Samuel please read what you wrote.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/1/18


hmmm a White person because he is liberal or leftist to use the pejorative term hates him or her self.

Why do we hate ourselves? Why cannot it not be that we are opposed to hate? That many people oppose putting others down for the color of their skin.

From My Lord Jesus Christ I understand I am to oppose hate and only spread love.

I guess that makes me a leftist for following Jesus.

Love to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/1/18


Nicole_Lacey:

No. It's because when ANY group-specific pejorative word is used against ANY group, it is considered a sign of prejudice -UNLESS- the person saying it is also a member of that same group. Haz27 calling me a Marxist is an insult. Stalin calling Lenin a Marxist is not.

It's not my place to tell black people what to call each other, and it's not my business to butt in on private phone conversations. He WAS speaking loud enough for me to hear, so my hearing what he said was his problem and not mine (I was not eavesdropping).

Be realistic. It's unlikely that a black person would call a white person the N word. It wouldn't make any sense!
---StrongAxe on 6/1/18


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StrongAxe: I didn't say it was right. However, no black person was ever fired for saying "'sup N****?" to another black person.//

You are RIGHT. Only White people are fired. Because Lefties are racist as well.

Racists against White people.

Tell me why can Black people say the N word, but not White people? That's racist.

//I overheard a black man drop several N bombs while talking to his friend on the phone.//

And you accepted it didn't you? BTW, how do you know the person on the side of the phone was Black? Assuming are you?
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/31/18


\\A Laity person (a faithful Catholic who ISN'T a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal or the Pope Which are ordained persons of the Catholic Church) wrote those WORDS in the WEBSITE.

NOT a Priest, Bishop or Cardinal created NOR entered those words. \\

And how did you find out who did the website?

How do you KNOW it was by a layman?

It wouldn't have said "Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix" had it not been approved by the appropriate diocesan official.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/31/18


Cluny: "The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix... "//

Again please pay attention to my words. I don't mean to be harsh, but you are spinning words to CONFUSE people.

A Laity person (a faithful Catholic who ISN'T a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal or the Pope Which are ordained persons of the Catholic Church) wrote those WORDS in the WEBSITE.

NOT a Priest, Bishop or Cardinal created NOR entered those words.

BUT INSIDE that VERY SAME website they QUOTED St. John Paul II WHO WAS a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal then became the Pope DIDN'T say THE WORD 'ROMAN'.

WHY DIDN'T HE SAY 'ROMAN'? Because he KNOWS the OFFICAL TITLE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ISN'T Roman Catholic Church.

We should believe you or St. JP2?
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/31/18


***Cluny: Too bad, because that is what the Latin Rite diocese of Phoenix says on its own web site, as i showed in my cut and paste.//

No you DIDN'T! Why be dishonest?

The Latin Rite DID NOT call the diocese of Phoenix 'Roman'***

Here is the cut and paste from the Latin Diocese of Phoenix's web site again.

Will you believe it this time?

"The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix is committed to helping the faithful encounter the living Christ through conversion, communion and solidarity. "

It really doesn't matter what J2P2 said or didn't say.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/30/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

I didn't say it was right. However, no black person was ever fired for saying "'sup N****?" to another black person. A few months ago, while waiting for a ride, I overheard a black man drop several N bombs while talking to his friend on the phone.

Google: phoenix catholic diocese
The VERY FIRST hit is the official diocese web site, titled "The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix"

Quoting the OT has nothing to do with Jewish canon, but with Christian canon. Some scholars argue the Apocrypha isn't canonical because Jesus and his apostles didn't quote from it. (I don't believe that's a valid analysis, but some do).
---StrongAxe on 5/30/18


StrongAxe: many black people themselves call themselves the N word all the time.//

Yes, it's STUPID and WRONG. So it now okay in your thinking?

So that's why you excuse Protestants calling the CC Roman even though the CC doesn't call Herself Roman?What kind of thinking is that?

//No, *I* don't, but many "biblical scholars" say that to argue against the Apocrypha.//

So the Jewish people have to listen to these scholars to legitimatize their Holy Book?

//Still, Jesus wouldn't quote it if he didn't agree with it, would he?//

I am not the one claiming the OT has be legitimatize by Jesus. By that theory you are suggestion ANY BOOK in the OT NOT QUOTED by Jesus isn't legitimized. You said NOT me.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/30/18


Cluny: Too bad, because that is what the Latin Rite diocese of Phoenix says on its own web site, as i showed in my cut and paste.//

No you DIDN'T! Why be dishonest?

The Latin Rite DID NOT call the diocese of Phoenix 'Roman'

You showed what a Laity mistakenly called the Church.

SHAME ON YOU!

Plus, I also went to the SAME website and it displayed what St. John Paul II CALLED the Church.

NO 'ROMAN' in his words!

Go back and refresh your memory

Again, PROVE IT by USING the Vatican See (Not 'Roman See' which you made up) using 'Roman'.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/30/18


Nicole_Lacey:

One place where using the N word is appropriate is the sentence "It's never proper to call someone a 'n*****'". Think about it. How can you teach children to NEVER say the N word, if you don't tell them what it is?

it's okay for the KKK to call Black people the N word as long as they among their own?

I NEVER said that. Yet many black people themselves call themselves the N word all the time.

Are you saying the Jewish people's Holy Book ISN'T LEGITIMATE unless Jesus quotes it?

No, *I* don't, but many "biblical scholars" say that to argue against the Apocrypha. Still, Jesus wouldn't quote it if he didn't agree with it, would he?
---StrongAxe on 5/30/18


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StrongAxe: I am not personally offended by the N word,//

Again, you don't the offensive keys.

//but think it's rude to others to use it outside of certain extremely narrow contexts//

WHAT? Since when has it been OKAY to use the N word?

//(e.g. "Never say 'n*****' in polite company.")//

Soooo, it's okay for the KKK to call Black people the N word as long as they among their own?

Please tell me when someone made that rule?

//Whenever Jesus or the Apostles quoted the OT, that is used to legitimize the OT.//

Says who?

Are you saying the Jewish people's Holy Book ISN'T LEGITIMATE unless Jesus quotes it?

The don't even believe in Jesus.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/29/18


\\Roman is offensive to me!\\

Too bad, because that is what the Latin Rite diocese of Phoenix says on its own web site, as i showed in my cut and paste.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/29/18


Nicole_Lacey:

I am not personally offended by the N word, but think it's rude to others to use it outside of certain extremely narrow contexts (e.g. "Never say 'n*****' in polite company.").

The Pope SPECIFICALLY quoted words of a cardinal and saint who DID use it, and the Pope did not qualify that quotation in any negative way. Whenever Jesus or the Apostles quoted the OT, that is used to legitimize the OT. One never questions whether they agreed with what they were quoting - it's assumed they wouldn't have quoted it if they didn't.

Using derogatory names is politically INCORRECT speech, and it's typically those on the left who have a big problem with political incorrectness, not those on the right.
---StrongAxe on 5/28/18


StrongAxe: I'm not a Catholic, so I don't have a horse in this race. Why do YOU take offense by this term//

You are NOT Black either, but you take offense to the N word when is used against a Black person don't you? You don't have horse in that race either.

So why do YOU take offense to the N word?

//when church officials and even the Pope himself don't seem to have any problem with it?//

Did the Pope tell you he didn't?

Father Pawca SAID he does have a problem with being called RC on his EWTN Live show recently.

BTW, saying DEROGATORY names ISN'T politically correct speech. Politically correct speech is gender neutral such as saying mail carrier instead of mail man. Take your spin to a young Leftist
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/27/18


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Nicole_Lacey:

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't have a horse in this race. Why do YOU take offense by this term when church officials and even the Pope himself don't seem to have any problem with it?

The left often gets hung up on politically correct speech, not the right.

Jesus said turn the other cheek. This was about power, not weakness. If someone hits you and you take offense, you give him power over you. If you say "Is that all you've got? Hit me again!", you take power over him, just as Jesus did his persecutors.

Words have power, but only the power we give them. If we let words offend us, we give those who use those words power over us. If we refuse to take offense, we become immune to bondage to them.
---StrongAxe on 5/27/18


Monk, the Diocese uses Latin NOT Roman.

As we said Xerox Or Kleenex instead of tissue.

StrongAxe: Why are you SO hung up on this term?//

As when I was little people called my 'COLORED' instead of Black! But my great grandparents were okay with the word.

Now do you understand?

Roman is offensive to me!

WHAT? I should ONLY be offended by WHAT the Left believes is hateful words?

You agree with me that the word 'Colored' is wrong, but since YOU DON'T think 'Roman' is wrong I HAVE TO ACCEPTED it?

Please give me the 'StrongAxe's book of offensive names', since you THINK I am WRONG to be upset with the word 'Roman'.

Maybe there are OTHER WORDS that SHOULDN'T upset me?
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/26/18


Nicole_Lacey:

I grew up in the 1950s-1970s in a Polish community, where almost all the members were Catholic. All the Catholic churches I remember from there, whether Polish, English, or otherwise, freely used the term Roman Catholic to describe themselves. Why are you SO hung up on this term? Why do you find it SO offensive, when so many in the church themselves have used it and continue to use it? Why are you choking on this gnat?

And again, why did you derail this blog about "How does God Prove Himself" so the last 8 messages have been wasted choking on this gnat? Why not start a separate blog on that specific topic, if it's really THAT important to you?
---StrongAxe on 5/23/18


Nicole, I don't really care of the local Latin rite Bishop of Rome has never used the term "Roman Catholic"--though on occasion, various of them have done so.

My point is that the LATIN diocese of my city DOES use the term "Roman Catholic," as I pointed out in my cut and paste from their website.

And believe it or not, the Catholic Church (even if defined as obedient to the Roman See) is bigger than the Latin Church. The Latin church is NOT the standard of Catholicism. Even Pope Benedict 16 said as much when he stated that Eastern Christians entering into communion with him need confess no more than the faith of the first 10 centuries.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/22/18


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Nicole Lacey said, "Parish founded by Franciscan Friars in 1539...
BTW named by the HOLY SEE...
As I said the Pope NEVER uses the word 'ROMAN'. Not even St. Pope John Paul II. He made the Parish a minor Basilica according Basilica's website."


Nicole, you are right. The Pope doesn't use the word "Roman." The most he will say is the "Catholic Community of Churches."

However, in Phoenix AZ, two different diocese, Roman and Byzantine, share the same See City. Hence, the NEED to use Roman or Byzantine.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/22/18


Cluny: here is a direct cut and paste from the Latin Diocese's web site:

"The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix is committed to helping the faithful encounter the living Christ through conversion, communion and solidarity.'//

Again, who do you think post those statements in the website?

The Pope?

NO

Someone from the Holy See?

NO

Please CITE a Pope calling the Church 'Roman'.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/21/18


Nicole, here is a direct cut and paste from the Latin Diocese's web site:

"The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix is committed to helping the faithful encounter the living Christ through conversion, communion and solidarity.'

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/21/18


Cluny: Look it up on the net, Nicole. I did, or I wouldn't have said it.//

You realize it wasn't the Pope who post the info on the net?

The Laity creates the info in the net.

Read the info in the net. I gave the POPE's name which is the HOLY SEE' (VATICAN CITY) name of the Church.

Which DOESN'T have 'Roman' in the name.

I have seen many errors in the net.

Don't believe everything you see in the internet.

//The Latin diocese uses the term "Roman Catholic" to distinguish itself from the Byzantine Catholic Diocese, which has the same see city.//

NO IT DOESN"T IT!

As StrongAxe, you are making stuff up!

Back it up with citation.

Happy Pentecost.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/21/18


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\\REALLY CLUNY?

Cluny: "St. Mary's ROMAN CATHOLIC Basilica." And the local diocese is officially called the ROMAN CATHOLIC Diocese//\\

Look it up on the net, Nicole. I did, or I wouldn't have said it.

The Latin diocese uses the term "Roman Catholic" to distinguish itself from the Byzantine Catholic Diocese, which has the same see city.

Happy Pentecost.
---Cluny on 5/20/18


REALLY CLUNY?

Cluny: "St. Mary's ROMAN CATHOLIC Basilica." And the local diocese is officially called the ROMAN CATHOLIC Diocese//

No it ISN'T.

St. Mary's Basilica, NAMED The Church of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin.

Parish founded by Franciscan Friars in 1539.

BTW named by the HOLY SEE

As I said the Pope NEVER uses the word 'ROMAN'. Not even St. Pope John Paul II. He made the Parish a minor Basilica according Basilica's website.

"His Holiness John Paul II solemnly proclaimed the Church of the immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary to be a Minor Basilica."

Note NO word 'ROMAN' in the title!

Because the Holy See Doesn't use that word.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/19/18


"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

Also, God proves Himself to me, by giving me good example people who help me find out how to love.
---Bill on 5/12/18


God proves Himself to me in answers to specific, personal prayers.



---jerry6593 on 5/12/18


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God proves himself to me by miracles and prophesy - the two things that prove the existence of God.
---Steveng on 5/10/18


His unconditional love and faithfulness. And as David said..His mercy is new everyday. Yes it is.
---kathr4453 on 5/10/18


God proved himself to me. By the words of the Bible in prophecy. In History. In wisdom and in showing me that I was a sinner who needed a savior.

Follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/10/18


One thing is how God in us does what He means by His word.

Isaiah 55:11 says >

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth,
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

For one example, Hebrews 12:7-11 says God's correction succeeds in changing us into His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". And I keep finding how His correction does not only punish or criticize me, but He succeeds in making us more real in His love and how He has us relating with Him and one another.
---Bill on 5/10/18


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