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Bill To Ban Some Counseling

California Assembly Bill AB 2943 would ban counseling, conferences and even printed materials that advocate for ways to get rid of unwanted same-sex attractions, the vaguely written proposal could even ban sales of bibles. The bill, passed in the California Assembly 50-18. Your thoughts?

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***Cluny: In other words, you have no evidence to back up your claim made that LGBT people are changed by becoming Christians.//

I gave the evidence. Check out the group called 'Courage'.***

Courage only gives tools to help live in celibacy. It does NOT claim to change sexual orientation.

And just what is the LGBT lifestyle.

One same-sex couple I know lives quietly, goes to the grocery store, washes their clothes, and goes to church. Until their retirement, they went to their jobs, too.

How does this differ from your own lifestyle, Nicole?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/18


Cluny: In other words, you have no evidence to back up your claim made that LGBT people are changed by becoming Christians.//

I gave the evidence. Check out the group called 'Courage'.

He isn't saying they are changed by desire but by their will not to continue in the LGBT life style.

Haz is correct. A true Christian (practicing Christian) doesn't murder people. He just used word 'kill' as you all are not aware of the difference.

Murder and kill isn't the same thing as in the intent.

Every Country that is taken over from by Christians is favorable to women and Gays.

Look at every Country that is ran by Majority Non Christians.

Women and Gays are mistreated horribly. Just open your eyes.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/18/18


\\CLUNY. Considering LGBT make up such a small fraction of population, the odds of meeting a Christian who was former LGBT are very remote. The only one I personally know of was a guy who joined our group preaching the gospel many years ago.\\

In other words, you have no evidence to back up your claim made that LGBT people are changed by becoming Christians.

And this ONE person you mentioned--what (or whom) is s/he doing now?

Can you answer?

Glory to Jesus Christ!!
---Cluny on 6/15/18


The Story of Tamar in 2 Samuel 13 is about rape. In Deut and Lev the word " force" is used. With Tamar the word "forced" is used. The story of Diana, no such word us used.

There are two schools of thought on Dinah. The majority believe it was consensual.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/18


kathr, the story of Dinah involved rape, not consensual intercourse.

Now who's deflecting?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/26/18




Anonymous:

You wrote: Who said prostitution was not a sin in Israel Genesis 38:24...

That was long before Moses codified the law. Prostitution is only forbidden in one place in Leviticus - a priest's daughter must not become a prostitute. Such a prohibition would not have been necessary if prostitution was already forbidden to all women.

Also note that in the very passage you quoted, Judah, the patriarch whose job it was to enforce righteousness among his people, apparently had no problem going out onto the street and hiring a prostitute. He didn't immediately have her arrested for the sin of prostitution, nor himself either.
---StrongAxe on 5/26/18


Who said prostitution was not a sin in Israel


Genesis 38:24 About three months later Judah was told, Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.

Judah said, Bring her out and have her burned to death!

25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. I am pregnant by the man who owns these, she said. And she added, See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.

26 Judah recognized them and said, She is more righteous than I
---Anonymous on 5/25/18


Kathr4453 said, "Cluny, your misspelled words are bothering Monk."

Not as much as yours do. Besides, I know his phone number.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/25/18


Kathr said, "Actually daughters were. Just look at Rachael and Leah. Jacob had to work 7' years for the father of Rachael and Leah...and it wasn't up to Rachael to be his only wife or even the first.

So no, this was not just or only a Roman idea.

Even woman could not divorce, but men could."


Kathr, this was a universal right of males for millennia, and only when the woman got the right to vote did this practice stop.

And here is the weird part. Even though the right to vote was given to various women at different years, depending on the country, women were still dependent on men until about the late 60's.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/25/18


\\Cluny, your misspelled words are bothering Monk. Please lets pray about his pettyness on this issue.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/18\\

kathr, you are the one who misspelled "sear" as "seer", not I.

Furthermore, the past tense--seared--was what was called for in your context.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/25/18




Actually daughters were. Just look at Rachael and Leah. Jacob had to work 7' years for the father of Rachael and Leah, and an additional 7 years after he was deceived for his wives, and it wasn't up to Rachael to be his only wife or even the first.

There's another story about a father taking an oath of some sort that involved his daughter's life and future, and she had nothing to say about it. I'll look for that one.


So no, this was not just or only a Roman idea.

Even woman could not divorce, but men could.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/18


kathr4453:

You mentioned Dinah. Note that there was no law involved here. It became a civil matter between her assailant and her father, which was resolved - by the man marrying the girl, and everyone in his village being circumcized.

Her brothers, however, broke the agreement and the laws of hospitality - dozens of murders are surely WORSE than one rape.

Deut. 22 has to do with fraud. It has nothing to do with the issue both Cluny and I mentioned (i.e. consentual relations between unmarried people in the OT never being prohibited). Where did God "clearly state", and what did he state?
---StrongAxe on 5/25/18


First. I really doubt that Hebrew Parents thought of their children as Property.

That is a Roman Custom. Passed on in some ways to modern thought.

Women and Children are lifted up and exalted in the Bible.

Correct Sins against GOD were the death penalty.

Most others were fines. By the way a wife raped was to be believed and the man executed. It seems many today don't believe women.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/25/18


Also remember it was GOD's LAW and God talking in Deut 22 that she be put to,death, not the fathers, therefore I see the sin was against God. A simple infraction against the father would not result in DEATH. Only sins against GOD required the death sentence. I hope that answers your question Cluny.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/18


Strongaxe, I believe a careful reading of Deut 22 for starters says alot. If a girl passed herself off as a virgin and was caught lying to her husband and he found out about it...she was put to death. A girl was property of her father. She couldnt even marry without her parents concent.

You need also to remember the story of Dinah Genesis 34:1-7

But again, how does Cluny's question by changing the subject justify twisting what God clearly stated.

Cluny, your misspelled words are bothering Monk. Please lets pray about his pettyness on this issue.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/18


Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh,

( Or should a man leave his father and mother and be one flesh with a few women ? I don't think that one works ? )

1 Corinthians 6:12-----> 20
---RichardC on 5/24/18


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Kathr4453 said, "Gods word does the judging...and it appears many having a seered conscience themselves..."

First, Kathr, the word is spelled S*E*A*R. I say this not in a hateful way, but in a gentle way, to encourage you to be able to communicate better.

Second, your so-called gentle reproof to me violates one of the rules of this blog, to give Christ-like answers.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/24/18


kathr4453:

You wrote: Cluny,exactly what does your question have to do with what is clearly stated as a sin in Deut and Lev?

Where, exactly, in Deutronomy or Leviticus are relations between an unmarried man and woman forbidden?

When a man slept with an unmarried virgin, it was merely a civil tort against her father, because she became damaged goods (i.e. she could no longer be married off and command a bride price), not a sin against God. The penalty is to pay the bride price, and marriage if the father allowed.

Prostitution was reviled, but NOT illegal. There would have been no reason to specifically forbid a priest's daughter from being a prostitute if it was already illegal for all women.
---StrongAxe on 5/24/18


In other words, kathr, you can't answer my question.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/24/18


AXE. Spoken like a true Lefty. Persecute Christians (if they weren't persecuted, murdered enough in history), because LGBT lifestyle (an "abomination" in God's eyes) was not embraced by normal societies in history.

Obviously you endorse Left's "Utopia" of genderless, LGBT society (Sodom, Gomorrah comes to mind) that's now being introduced in schools. Seems the deviant Left use Prov 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Christians keep the 2 commands of Jesus (1John 3:22,23), hence they don't harm others.

To counter the hypocritical Left's propaganda lies praising itself, I prefer to use terms that accurately describe the Left.

---Haz27 on 5/24/18


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Cluny,exactly what does your question have to do with what is clearly stated as a sin in Deut and Lev?

It obviously was a no brained since it is spoken often as a sin in the New. Can you find where it is " A new law I give unto you "? Even consensual still had to pay restitution to the girls family and a forced marriage took place.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/18


A real Christians does not murder other people.

Romans 13:8,9 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It is people who are false Christians who murder people.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/24/18


Haz27:

Europe has been under predominantly Christian rule for almost 2 millenia. LGBT people have been persecuted in European countries for most of that time, SPECIFICALLY "because it violates the law of God".

Christians do not kill people

The Inquisition, Crusades, Calvinists burning heretics, the Salem witch trials, etc. would indicate otherwise. If you split the hair of "Well, those weren't REALLY Christians", then one must ask - how can one OBJECTIVELY tell who is Christian and who isn't?

Are you even CAPABLE of using the word "left" without a pejorative, even once?
---StrongAxe on 5/24/18


Since consensual heterosexual fornication is not mentioned in Leviticus or Deuteronomy, does this mean it's not a sin?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/24/18


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Monk and Cluny...ive got your number.

Gods word does the judging...and it appears many having a seered conscience themselves are not convicted by the word of God, are spiritually dead, therefore cannot see the word of God.

Ive got your number.

Please dont think by the Pope LYING that that is an example of not judging. OHHHHH then you will say...Dont Judge the Pope for lying...right?

Having a form of Godliness but denying the power...from such walk away. NOW, for one to OBEY this verse in 2 Timothy 3, would one have to JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT FIRST?

Pointing to Gods word what SIN IS, is GOD JUDGING. How else do you think one preaches the Gospel? By Misrepresenting God?
---kathr4453 on 5/24/18


AXE. You said Christians killed LGBT people for millenia. This is typical of deceitful Left's neo Marxist victim narrative meant to stir up hate, class warfare.

Christians do not kill people as they obey Christ's command to love others (John 13:34) and love does no harm to another.

What you cannot avoid is YOU, a supporter of the heartless Left, would misrepresent Christianity in such a typical Leftist way, whilst YOU yourself conveniently ignore the FACT of the Left's genocidal murders over the past century.

The LA Times said CA bill can affect churches, etc that sold, advertised or even recommended books that propagated the idea believers can use prayer to help LGBT. Potentially Bible can be banned under this Bill.
---Haz27 on 5/24/18


Haz27:

REGARDLESS of what my beliefs on those other issues are, they are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to THIS blog, so why are you raising them HERE? Why do you have to keep derailing ALMOST EVERY SINGLE BLOG you post on to that agenda? Why are you SO OBSESSED with the left and Marxism?

The CA bill does not oppose PRAYER. ANYONE can pray. It opposes so-called THERAPY which is MUCH MORE than just prayer.

It's estimated that about 10% of the population is LGBT, so "very remote" is much less unlikely than you think.
---StrongAxe on 5/23/18


AXE. I raised the issue about Left's genocidal record because you actually support the heartless Left, conveniently ignoring their genocide and hate, etc, and then (like a typical hypocritical Lefty) you attack Christianity alleging "Christians" have long killed LGBT.

My main concern about authoritarian Left's CA bill is it opposes prayer for LGBT, which no doubt includes any Christian preaching the gospel and saying if an LGBT person receives Christ then God can transform them.

CLUNY. Considering LGBT make up such a small fraction of population, the odds of meeting a Christian who was former LGBT are very remote. The only one I personally know of was a guy who joined our group preaching the gospel many years ago.
---Haz27 on 5/23/18


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Kathr4453 said, " Cluny, it was referring to SINS and what God forbid those in Israel to do...including rape, beastiality, Adultry, etc."

Kath, instead of carping about your spelling errors, let's see what the Word of God has to say.

Deut 12:31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Also, Deut 18:9, 12:9, 16:21, and look at Deut 22:11. Have you missed any of those Toevoht?
---Monk_Brendan on 5/23/18


kathr, what does Romans 1 have to do with people who NEVER had feelings for the opposite sex?

In any case, Romans 1 cannot be properly understood without the opening verses of Romans 2, which includes the words, "You who judge practice the same things!"

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/23/18


Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
( hopefully Cluny won't explain this away by saying it means men loved cooking and doing house work, which is a woman's job and what their natural use is about)

This sin has been around since the fall of Adam. Romans 1-2 is why God brought the flood. The final judgement will be fire.

Jesus died and rose again so that anyone can be SET FREE from the power of SIN and death. HEbrews 2. No sin is too horrible for God. In Gods eyes all sin is sin. This is what the Pope should be preaching.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/18


Haz27, I've actually seen more hate and judgement from so called Christians on this subject. I went to a SB revival where the president of the SBC back in 2002 said there was NO HOPE for this, and they were going to HELL...PERIOD. Maybe you all don't hear there kinds of sermons, but in the USA you will out of some mainstream Churches. I find that HORRIBLE. We all need salvation no matter what ...we're all sinners in need of a savior.

If God gave them over then He gave all of us over...He gave that generation over and brought the flood, because they seered their own conscience. Today we have the Word of God clearly stating what SIN IS, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ setting man free from sin.
---kath4453 on 5/23/18


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Haz27:

If you think therapies, etc. are ineffective, then the CA bill that is the topic do not apply to you, and it should be irrelevant to you whether or not those therapies are permitted or not.

Any killing by the Left, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and abortion have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic of this blog, so why do you bring them up, as you do in every other blog for which those topics are also not relevant?
---StrongAxe on 5/23/18


\\LGBT are best helped by preaching gospel to them so they might be saved. And having Christ they can be heale\\

Haz, please give the number of all the LGBT people you personally know who became heterosexual by becoming Christians.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/23/18


AXE. Fallen man with all their disorders, lusts, etc, became so through man's rebellion/sin against God.

Whilst we're not to judge others of sin (unrighteousness, transgression of the law), nor do we endorse the Left's deviant lifestyles.

I'm no fan of therapies, counseling etc, as they're just mans own 3rd rate efforts which cannot compare to God our counselor, healer.

LGBT are best helped by preaching gospel to them so they might be saved. And having Christ they can be healed.

Christians obeying Christ's command to love others, don't kill, even the LGBT. BUT, the Christian hating Left killed far in excess of 100 million under the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc, and today's baby murder.
---Haz27 on 5/23/18


Cluny, it was referring to SINS and what God forbid those in Israel to do...including rape, beastiality, Adultry, etc.

Israel was just as capable of committing these sins as anyone else in the world. God made clear to HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE what SIN IS, and how He would deal with those who committed these sins.

The Law points to SIN, and was my point with Haz27, and you all who want to say it's a disorder or disease. No...ITS A SIN. WAS THEN STILL IS TODAY. What a shame the Pope has LIED to billions of people on this subject. Does he think he can override Gods word? He just may be the anti_Christ after all.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/18


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kathr, I was merely showing the cultural and historical situation at the time the Torah was written.

Why do I believe that this is referring to cult prostitutes? Because elsewhere in the Torah it says, "He who is wounded in the stones or has his privy member cut off shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."

'Nuff said?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/22/18


Kathr4453 said Cluny, my my how you have twisted the Word of God. If God were addressing Israel not to go and have sexual relations with Canaanite transsexuals...Talk about a total STRETCH ...a KellyAnn Conway answer as well."

Kathr, they didn't even have a word for transsexual in the Hebrew in which the Bible was written. All they could do was to say it's toevah, or nasty.

What is a KellyAnn Conway answer? I read ALL of the posts, and Cluny's post to you was in no way wishy or washy.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/22/18


The Pope saying " God made you like this" again....WOW.

Did God make Cain a murderer? God created Adam and Eve, who sinned, and because of that, SIN entered the world. So God did NOT make anyone like that. That's what the chief of liars ( Satan ) and murderers wants you to believe.

And like all sin, envy, murders, etc, including all sorts of perversions due to man's fallen nature, Jesus died and rose again so you can be set free from all sorts of sin. If God made you that way....why would sin be an issue in any area.

And this is the POPE, who's suppose to be a spiritual leader in truth? A very sad day in the life of humanity.
---kathr4453 on 5/22/18


Cluny, my my how you have twisted the Word of God. If God were addressing Israel not to go and have sexual relations with Canaanite transsexuals ..He would have said as much. It was forbidden to even have relations with Canaanites or marry them period. Talk about a total STRETCH ...a KellyAnn Conway answer as well.

Wow....

God is addressing Israel on how they IN ISRAEL are to behave. He's also addressing the same issue with beastsSo is your definition of "animals" the Philistines perhaps?

Leviticus 18:23 Leviticus 20:15 clarify that it's also possible with beasts/ animals who one would think even more impossible, because of how they are built.
---kath4453 on 5/22/18


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This is where it gets confusing with Haz27....one minute he's holding up scripture, the next politics, and somehow tangles both together. But when doing it with this subject he contradicts himself.

Is it a SIN or a disorder HAZ? FORGET THE LEFTY STUFF. That's all. Just answer the question. If it is a SIN, then the political side is a non issue. WHY? Because the world will never recognize SIN AS SIN and address SIN AS GOD DOES.

You cop out when you say something added like....yea but if they want the therapy...bla bla....

AS A CHRISTIAN WE KNOW THE THERAPY IS NOT GOING TO WORK. Conviction by the Holy Spirit is the ONLY THING that is going to work.

Phychobabbel never works.
---kat453 on 5/22/18


Haz27:

Again: WHY do Christians oppose LGBT? Because it is a diseaase, or because it is a sin?

From your list, it sounds like a sin. Where does the Bible recommend therapy or cures for sins? Jesus touched and healed blind, deaf-mutes, lame, lepers, etc. - but when did he ever "treat" sinners?

God says "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Christians have been KILLING LGBT people for millenia, yet a few short years of the shoe even just touching the other foot is suddenly "hateful"? Speck, beam, eye.

The bill does not penalize PRAYER. Anyone can pray from their own home. It penalizes falsely calling something THERAPY which is not.
---StrongAxe on 5/22/18


\\Leviticus20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads.\\

This, of course, is impossible because of the way men are usually built.

But the Canaanite cult prostitutes were the first transsexuals.

In fact, the word rendered as "sodomite" in the KJV is NOT from the radical SDM, but from the radical QDSh--usually "holy", but again, usually referring to the C C Ps.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/21/18


I read NARTH study in news. I don't know its details. Personally I trust life changing influence of Christ in us far more than therapies.

AXE. Christians, and God, oppose LGBT lusts, and adultery, pedophilia, murder, deceit, theft, etc.

But LGBT in particular is driven by hateful Left & LGBT activists, persecuting Christians (bakers, etc) using corrupt judiciary to penalize or force Christians into submitting to Left's & LGBT evil agendas.

The Bill penalizes prayer for LGBT people to help them, hence any Christian preaching gospel claiming JC can also overcome one's LGBT lust, then no doubt that too would be penalized by the hateful Left and LGBT.
Are you on God's side or hateful Leftist, LGBT side?

---Haz27 on 5/21/18


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Leviticus20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads.

Interesting Haz27 does not see this is also the LAW. and we see that SIN, and breaking the LAW, brought the death penalty. Disorders did not.

Haz27 again has his own rules according to his own understanding , but not according to Gods Word.

This is just one of many verses.

Leviticus 18:22 AGAIN. So there is no mistake here. Even the act with Scoobie Doo is STILL an abomination in Gods eyes....

There are more than just 10 commandments pointing to SIN. Even rape is addressed....still a sin..
---kathr4453 on 5/21/18


I just discovered on PATHEOS, a Christian web-site, that 3/4 of the members of NARTH are neither mental health professionals nor scientists.

Draw your own conclusions.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/21/18


Nicole_Lacey:

So is it a disease, or a sin? Please one, as the Bible never punishes disease nor offers therapy for sin.


Haz27:

If it's a disorder and not a sin, why do Christians rail against it? I've never heard of Christian bakers refusing to bake cakes for lepers, cancer patients, or people with bipolar depression - all disorders.

Of course NARTH favors conversion "therapy", as they're specifically created to promote that, just as the NRA always promotes ownership, as that is their only reason for existence. Neither can be objective about their own cause.

This bill can't stop anyone from being cured of any disorder through faith in Christ, only pseudo-scientific "therapy".
---StrongAxe on 5/21/18


Haz27 said, NARTH conducted a survey of 882 patients of therapies for such disorders..."

Narth was founded by Dr. Socarides, a man who was terrified that anyone would found out his son was gay. He was a quack! His therapies had NO effect on any of his patients. The patients only responded the way they did so that they could get paid for the study.

BTW, his son is still gay!
---Monk_Brendan on 5/21/18


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\\NARTH conducted a survey of 882 patients of therapies...\\

Two questions, Haz:

1. When was this study made?

2. Has there ever been a follow-up study of the same sample?

Please let us know.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/21/18


Others have not needed such therapies as they found upon receiving Christ that their disorder was removed. Again this authoritarian Ca bill seeks to prevent this.///

Prevent what? One's faith is personal and in no,way can CA or Washington, or China or anyone prevent or even try to prevent Christ IN YOU...who is changing you from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord.

I believe scripture is very clear this is a sin. And there is no scripture that schizophrenia is a sin. Can't compare the two.

GOd will ALWAYS deal with sin....but healing from a disease is something we know is not Guaranteed. A transformed life is.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/18


Our old Adam is full of all sorts of sin...and to God sin is sin. We want to categorize it...God does not.

When one has faith and UNDERSTANDS Romans 6-8 , and surrenders and obeys that truth, the Lord will transform your life. You instantly become a NEW Creature, HOWEVER, the process of being conformed to His death, whereby that New Creature grows up into Him with a renewed mind as well, takes patience, obedience, and faith to be set free from that old sin nature.

Not everyone obeys James 1 to realize the outcome....but those who do will be set free. You will KNOW the truth,,and the TRUTH will set you free. It works this way with all sorts of issues...alcohol, drug addiction. And on and on.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/18


AXE. It's a disorder.
NARTH conducted a survey of 882 patients of therapies for such disorders and they found that post therapy 18 percent self-identified as exclusively straight, 17 percent as almost entirely straight, and 12 percent as more straight than their previous queer state. The Ca Bill seeks to prevent this, punishing anyone who tries.

Others have not needed such therapies as they found upon receiving Christ that their disorder was removed. Again this authoritarian Ca bill seeks to prevent this.

BTW, Sin is defined as transgression of the law (1John 3:4), unrighteousness (1John 5:17), unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9). I suggest you use God's labels accurately.
---Haz27 on 5/20/18


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StrongAxe: The "Christian understanding" is somewhat schizophrenic about this.//

No, as you said you are confused.

//What is it, a disease//

As it has been before the mid 70's before political pressure placed on Psychiatrist to change their minds.

//a sin?//

A sin as it is stated in the Bible. Or you claiming the Bible is wrong?

//If it's a sin, you don't treat it.//

Yes, you do. It isn't charitable to allow someone fight a battle without help.

//If it's a disease, you don't punish it,//

Yes God will if the person REFUSES to fight!

//yet the "Christian understanding" is to do both.//

No, Christians help, God punishes if His Mercy is refused.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/20/18


Haz27:

I'm confused by your position. There are two totally separate and distinct things:
1) Cancer and schizophrena are diseases. Diseases are disorders and are malfunctions of body or mind, and are treated with therapies, and not punished. They are not moral failures, and not a person's fault.
2) Murder and robbery are sins. Sins are moral failures, and are punished, not treated.

The "Christian understanding" is somewhat schizophrenic about this. What is it, a disease or a sin? If it's a sin, you don't treat it. If it's a disease, you don't punish it, yet the "Christian understanding" is to do both.
---StrongAxe on 5/20/18


No surprise the loopy Lefty government of CA would do their authoritarian best to trample on peoples rights.

They even declared that LGBT is not a disease, disorder, or illness, which implies that the Christian understanding of it as being a disorder is no longer an acceptable position in Ca.

Sadly for those LGBT who do seek reparative therapy, this Bill 2943 will make it illegal for them to do so, hence theyll have to go to another state.
---Haz27 on 5/19/18


I guess I will have to wait until Monday morning to repost my blog?
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/19/18


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Im curious to know, how many of you have actually read the proposed law?
---NurseRobert on 5/19/18


john9346:

You wrote: First, you don't even believe in Scripture

Will you please STOP repeating that? I never said that.

Next, in Matt 19:4 the Lord Jesus Christ would disagree because he actually connects the making of male and female with the functioning of marriage Matt 19:4-9.

Yet nowhere does he say it's WRONG to NOT be married. In fact, HE HIMSELF was not married!
---StrongAxe on 5/19/18


john, in other words, you have no idea about the orientation of your counselees today.

Have you heard of Ann Paulk's ex-husband, John Paulk? After years of being the poster boy for Exodus, he admitted his orientation had never really changed.

Finally, StrongAxe has NEVER said he did not believe in Scripture, so you're simply lying when you accuse him of this.

Happy Ascensiontide!
---Cluny on 5/19/18


Strongaxe:

First, you don't even believe in Scripture so,therefore, the "Actual Meaning." is useless to you.

Next, in Matt 19:4 the Lord Jesus Christ would disagree because he actually connects the making of male and female with the functioning of marriage Matt 19:4-9.

Remember what I said to you in order for you to make your view of the Scriptures work you have to try to steal from mine that is very very "Inconsistent."

I believe that all of "Scripture." is, "Theopneustos." Directly proceeding out of the very mouth of God Almighty...proceeding from
---john9346 on 5/18/18


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cluny said, "I'd be curious to know just how your counselees are doing 5-10 years after you did your thing."

If I still worked there i'd let them tell you themselves...

Have you read the stories of Christopher Doyle, Ann Paulk, and Rosario Butterfield freed from (SSA)

Cluny with love and compassion sorry to hear that your God is so weak, powerless, ineffective, and impotent that he or she cant deliver a yoked, bondaged, and burden deprave sinner from his or her sin...

I pray the True God who is found in Holy Scripture turn you to himself so you will know the God who can, who does, and who will deliver the sinner from their sin...

Peace,

John
---john9346 on 5/18/18


john9346:

"4 Havent you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,[a]."

I presume you meant Matthew 19:4, quoting Genesis 1:27.

It just says how them were made. It says nothing about how they are supposed to interact. You cannot denote function from this verse. For example, men and women together is good. A man alone is also good (see Jesus and Paul). A woman alone is also good.

Also, Galatians 3:28:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

In Christ, all these distinctions are meaningless.
---StrongAxe on 5/17/18


John 9346 said, "Cluny to carry out your position to its Logical Conclusion The Almighty God made a mistake when he made male and female..."

Far from it, John. Cluny is pointing out that the male-oriented society of the writers of the Bible couldn't stand to think of a guy doing THAT with another guy, so they took what God was talking about, Temple Prostitution, and they converted same-sex attraction into the fourth or maybe the fifth commandment.

And if you look at the context, TOEVAH means nasty--not unforgiveable.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/17/18


\\ I've counseled with many majority teenagers and the Lord jesus Christ of Holy Scripture grants Real-true Freedom.\\

The simple fact is that during the teenage years all sorts of circuits are being turned on an tested that will not be used at adulthood.

I'd be curious to know just how your counselees are doing 5-10 years after you did your thing.

Have you ever read STRANGER AT THE GATE by Mel White? He went through all sorts of counselling and treatments to change his orientation, including electroshock. Even having a wife for 25 years and raising two children didn't help.

Happy Ascension!
---Cluny on 5/17/18


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strongaxe said, "That does not follow at all."

Is that true? it does because the Lord Jesus said, "4 Havent you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female,[a]."

How men and women are made are distinct from the functions they carry out.

Respectfully, You are consistent in the habit of asserting sameness when arguing categories on topics.
---john9346 on 5/17/18


Dear reader:

Cluny made a lot of "Outlandish." Claims pertaining to those who desire freedom from "Unwanted Same-Sex Attractions."

I just want to say to anyone reading this who might desire freedom that there is a way out... I've counseled with many majority teenagers and the Lord jesus Christ of Holy Scripture grants Real-true Freedom.

Soli Deo Gloria,

John
---john9346 on 5/17/18


john9346:

You wrote: Cluny to carry out your position to its Logical Conclusion The Almighty God made a mistake when he made male and female...

That does not follow at all. It would be just as much of an illogical leap to say that single men and women who never marry are outside of God's will, because men and women are SUPPOSED to marry.
---StrongAxe on 5/16/18


cluny said, "And common sense tells you we don't get to choose our own temptations."

The Holy Spirit inspired James to respond to your objection:

"But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death." James 1:14-15."

Cluny to carry out your position to its Logical Conclusion The Almighty God made a mistake when he made male and female...
---john9346 on 5/16/18


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And you actually think that St. Paul is talking about orientation (as we understand it today) in this passage, john?

Living in celibacy does NOT mean that one has changed his or her orientation.

And common sense tells you we don't get to choose our own temptations.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/15/18


cluny said, "This is based own the totally false assumption that orientation is a choice. If you really think it is, look at yourself, and determine when you made the choice to be what you are."

But Paul inspired of the Holy Spirit says otherwise, "11 Some of you once lived this way. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11

BTW, Exodus failed for many reasons that is why The Restored Hope Network was started.
---john9346 on 5/15/18


The best that reparative therapy/counselling can do is help a person live in celibacy.

This is based own the totally false assumption that orientation is a choice. If you really think it is, look at yourself, and determine when you made the choice to be what you are.

Even Exodus disbanded after finally realizing they were hunting smipes.

Hewever, vaguely written bills, like hard cases, make bad law. But that this bilil would ban the sale of Bibles is a bit paranoid.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/14/18


StevenG, any time someone THINKS about banning ANY publication, some knee jerk reactionary gets the idea that the act is done to ban the Bible.

THINK! In the past 400 years, has any LEGAL body succeeded in banning the Bible? Hasn't happened then, won't happen now.
---Monk_Brendan on 5/14/18


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Steveng:

Please explain how that bill could ban sale of Bibles. I haven't actually read the bill, so I don't know the exact wording, but I presume the Bible could only be considered infringing on this law if it actually encouraged or commanded such counselling.

Please show, chapter and verse, where
1) such counselling is described
2) such counselling is encouraged or commanded
3) anyone has been subject to such counselling

I'm personally not aware of any.

There are many places in the Qur'an that encourage things like murdering of infidels, which would violate laws in most jurisdictions, yet I have never heard of anyone banning that book on that regard.
---StrongAxe on 5/14/18


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