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Good Works For Salvation

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

A friend explained that I have to do good works to obtain the grace and choose to have faith to obtain salvation. Is this correct?

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 ---trey on 7/6/18
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Of coarse the earthly kingdom was discussed in the Gospels, because it is still a PROMISE yet to be fulfilled TO ISRAEL "THE NATION". So was Israel a NATION then? NO NO NO . Did Jesus overthrow Rome ? NO NO NO. With that said, the KINGDOM must have Jesus here in it establishing it. Matther 24-25, Zechariah 12-14 has NOT nor ever been fulfilled. AND the Fact that when Jesus was asked if He was at that time going to restore the Kingdom TO ISRAEL, Jesus did not say YES. Matt24 and Acts 1:6-7 both say ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN.

Horrible things have to happen FIRST before then. They have NOT yet to date.

So what is standing in the way here, your intelligence or NOT yet learning to rightly divide the word of Truth?
---kathr4453 on 8/15/18


Michael_e, here's where you fall short. You refuse to address the issues brought before you. Re: Barnabas for one. And why would Peter recruit a Gentile ...Cornelius, to join the Kingdom restored to Israel, WHERE IN FACT GENTILES WILL BE IN SUBMISSION TO THE JEWS.

There is no directive, as you see in the Gospels for anyone to go to the Gentile dogs. Nothing states Corneluis became a Jew and went through some Hebrew ritual including circumcision, like we saw the tries to do in Galatia. ...Intelligent folks know this. YOU however ignore it or will make up some OUTRAGEOUS reason to explain it away.

Also Romans 11 prove your doctrine is bogus.

Later.
---kath4453 on 8/15/18


Some passages aren't the same.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
Intelligent students check facts before making an application.
Fact: the kingdom gospel and the gospel of the grace of God are different.
Fact #1: Paul preached Christ dying for our sins, his burial, and resurrection. 1 Cor 15:1-4
Fact #2: Christ sent the 12 to preach the kingdom gospel. Luke 9:6
Fact #3: The twelve didn't understand the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ while they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Luke 18:31-34
---michael_e on 8/15/18


Correct Cluny, 40 days with them and 10 days waiting for the Holy Spirit. Thank you for that correction. I would think in 40 they covered a lot of issues. Yet somehow Michael_e seems to think none of them knew Jesus rose from the dead, and only was that revealed to Paul.

Now Michael_e has added imaginary apostles of Paul, hand picked and converted by Paul to be another set of Apostles ....I guess they would be called The Apostles and prophets explicitly of the MYSTERY. Yet no scripture backs that up.

But your faith believes in the succession of Apostleship doesn't it? Peter appointing his own apostles to carry on the preaching of the earthly kingdom restored to Israel....unto this day..correct?
---kath4453 on 8/15/18


I get it. In order to EXPLAIN AWAY Ephesians 2:20, you've come up with imaginary Apostles. OK so When were they taken up to the 3'd heaven and shown things unspeakable....OR ARE THESE PAULS APOSTLES?

There is no such thing as Pauls apostles ....and the very definition and qualification of an apostle is one personally hand picked by Jesus Christ. Many questioned Pauls authority, however his testimony of being struck down and a personal encounter with the Lord qualifies him as one.

These others are not said to be APOSTLES, except in your over-reaching imagination to desperately make your doctrine fit it's false premise.

I've also researched your claim and it is NOT supported.

But YES please do tell us more.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/18




Let's take a look at Barnabas, mentioned as an Apostle, was long before Paul, we see Barnabas in Acts 4. So, somehow Barnabas was preaching the Kingdom being restored to Israel, and WALLA, somehow CONVERTS to Pauls Gospel out of left field and is a fellow worker with Paul. And then John Mark, Barnabas's cousin also joins them. They split because of John Mark, not doctrinal differences. Keep in mind too Barnabas was a LEVITE. Wow, talk about confusing.....stealing converts from one another's Kingdom...what confusion! NO SCRIPTURE backs up Barnabas ever being a convert of Pauls or ever preaching KINGDOM NOW theology at that time. And Barnabas again was way before Paul came on the scene.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/18


//That is just a blatant lie. There are NO Apostles and prophets who come AFTER PAUL//
Practice a little respect please.
Prophesying doesn't always mean predicting the future.
Paul, traveled ministering his gospel, others were recruited by the Spirit to help.
Study, the Spirit gave gifts of prophecy and positions of apostleship to others after Paul in the newly revealed church of Christs body. (1 Cor 12:10 1 Cor 12:28)
Timothy, Silvanus, and Epaphroditus are all called apostles by Paul (1 Thess 2:6, Phil 2:25).
It was these Spirit filled church apostles who also prophesied mystery truths as they were laying the foundation of the early church wherever they were sent (Eph 2:20).
---michael_e on 8/14/18


\\fter Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD, He spent 10 days with them explaining to them..\\

WRONG!

Jesus spent FORTY DAYS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/18


After Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD, He spent 10 days with them explaining to them..WHY He died and rose again. Jesus also told them that the Holy Spirit would continue to teach them more things ....

But Michael_e was there, and personally witnessed Jesus telling them about the Kingdom being restored to Israel....and LOOK HOW STUPID they must have been....asking right before He ascended IF the Kingdom was at that time going to be restored to Israel. Acts 1:6-7. I guess they weren't paying attention and had NO CLUE what the Doctrine of the Kinddom was in the first place, and still after 10 days didn't get it.

Matthew 24 and Acts 1:6-7 say ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN, ...why, because Israel the Nation belongs to the Father.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/18


1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Yes it is important to compare scripture with scripture. The verse above Michael_e says DOES NOT BELONG TO THE CHURCH, was never taught as a promise of any Earthly Kingdom reign. This however is taught to the Church the BOC, being CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE, putting on Christ.

So it's Michael_e, not understanding the MYSTERY in the first place who fails to compare scripture with scripture.

I can show so much more, but you have unfortunately been brainwashed , not leaving any room for the Lord to work in your life. So sad. So very sad.
---kath4453 on 8/14/18




Paul was first to receive the mystery of Christ, the apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israels kingdom.
---michael_e on 8/14/18

That is just a blatant lie. There are NO Apostles and prophets who come AFTER PAUL. That statement alone is bazaar. There are also no NT Prophets. Revelation, the FINAL PROPHECY came from John, ..one of the 12 Apostles. REV 21:10-14 we see, the 12 Apostles of the Church,( the Lamb) and the 12 Tribes of Israel. Is there ANOTHER 12 representing the MYSTERY.? Or is that a MYSTERY TOO?
---kath4454 on 8/14/18


Compare scripture with scripture
None of the twelve apostles of the kingdom were apostles of the boC. The foundation they laid was according to prophecy. The twelve were apostles of Israels twelve tribes in their earthly kingdom.
The 12 didn't know the mystery when they were sent with their gospel. They didn't know Christ needed to die, they didn't know the preaching of the cross (Luke 18:34).
The Spirit gave the Twelve understanding of what the prophets spoke since Pentecost, not a word about the mystery kept secret. (Acts 3:21, Acts 3:24 vs. Rom 16:25).
Paul was first to receive the mystery of Christ, the apostles and prophets who have knowledge of the mystery come after Paul as part of the church not Israels kingdom.
---michael_e on 8/14/18


The MYSTERY.
by Kathr4453 Dec 2, 1984

Oh Lord how wonderful to see the unfolding of the Mystery.
New Life in you, Your Glory ours, each different as created stars.

A new creation comes to life, our New man IN YOU, oh what a sight. Our old man Adam crucified, and IN YOU now we will abide.

Oh Lord to see this mystery, you seek for our maturity, Obedience of Faith must be, through testing trials come perfectly.

Growing up into you how magnificently, a perfect bride we come to be, without a spot or wrinkle to see, to God will all the Glory be.

Oh thank you Lord for Calvary, where I found a brand new life in Thee, where Adam died, now crucified, where Adam died, where Adam died.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/18


Michael_e, My Poem along with many others I wrote, as my own personal testimony of those things the LORD revealed to me, through His Word, and it came at a very high price. And because of that, I KNOW THAT I KNOW what I believe and WHY, and what that cost was, and will NEVER in a gazillion years be moved away from KNOWING what the Mystery is. Every line of my poem ( testimony) can also be backed up with scripture.

It doesn't come through book knowledge or Les, but moment by moment being changed from Glory to Glory BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD through OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.

Unfortunately your mind has been poisoned against the scriptures that would transform your mind....saying this book or that does not belong to the BOC. Sad!
---kat453 on 8/14/18


Romans 16:25 according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ok let's reiterate what Paul said....above ALL ONE SENTENCE ...states clearly Paul's Gospel, according to the mystery , was kept secret, but NOW is made manifest by the scriptures and the prophets.

No where in this sentence is anything even mentioned about the Kingdom to Israel.

The MYSTERY was revealed to Paul THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES AND THE PROPHETS.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/18


Michael_e, your questions can be debated until the cows come home, and still proves nothing. YOU SAY, the death and resurrection was the mystery that was not revealed until after Jesus rose from the dead and revealed to Paul. Yet in the Gospels, Jesus told of His death and resurrection. You also say they the Gospels fulfilled OT Prophecy...yet Jesus speaking of His death and resurrection had not been fulfilled yet. And Matthew 24_25 have not been fulfilled.

You are all over the place making excuse after excuse when clearly shown scripture you refuse to study.
---kath453 on 8/13/18


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Rom 16:25 clearly written to the boC Acts 3:21 to Israel
Is the gospel the cross or the kingdom? Mark 1:14-15 & 1 Cor 15:1-4
Was the cross glorious or shameful? Acts 3:13-15 & Gal 6:14
Was the gospel known or kept secret? Rom 16:25 & Acts 3:21
Did the twelve understand the gospel or not? Luke 9:2 & Luke 18:34
Do we follow the gospel of the kingdom or of Grace? Luke 9:2 & Acts 20:24
Who is speaking? who is the audience? what is the context?
---michael_e on 8/13/18


According to Romans 16:25 it was. Certainly the Earthly Kingdom Reign AKA the kingdom restored to Israel was NEVER A MYSTERY, therefore Romans 16:25 is not talking about the earthly Kingdom. That is clearly defined in Zechariah 12-14' when Jesus will come IN ALL HIS GLORY ..the RISEN CHRIST with the Saints..that is THE CHURCH, to set up the Kingdom to Israel. WE have Been called to reign and rule WITH CHRIST at that time. And Jesus will be present on earth at that time. Even Matthew 24-25 show this. Those things prophecied before Jesus SECOND COMING, have not happened yet. So one MUST at least understand that before claiming Peter and the Apostles preached the Earthly Kingdom.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/18


THE MYSTERY of " Christ IN YOU" was first spoken by Jesus in His prayer in John 17. I IN THEM and Thou In me that we may be ONE. This Jesus prayed as a result of His death and resurrection And THIS was the MYSTERY that was revealed to Paul to take to the Gentiles, while Peter and John took the same Mystery of the Gospel of GRACE ( GRACE MEANING THE CROSS please see Galatians 2:20-21) to the Jews.

No two Gospels were APPROVED to be preached at the same time..again see Galatians 1....That other gospel that was "accursed". And Paul NEVER said Peter preached that other Gospel, but was REBUKED for playing a hypocrite when that OTHER Gospel was brought in.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/18


Also Michael_e, the Jews REJECTED Jesus as their KING, because He didn't live up to some sort of standards they invisioned. Their KING was to overthrow Rome, which Jesus did not. That's why Judas betrayed Jesus. So to say the Jews OPEN HEARTEDLY accepted Jesus as their KINGDOM NOW KING of the Restored Israel, is not true. They called Him a Blasphemer for even suggesting He was the Son of God.

And Michael, Jesus actually has to be ON EARTH to set up this Kingdom you insist on. So While He is in Heaven, it's the CHURCH that is being established, and THEN at His 2nd Coming, THEN He will set up the Earthly Kingdom. Zechariah 12-14..

---kath4453 on 8/13/18


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Some seem to think all the OT prophets knew of the cross work of Christ, yet the 12 that spent 3 years with him didn't know Mark 9:31,32
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are gospels of prophetic fulfillment.
Many prophecies are fulfilled in what are called the four gospels. The phrase that it might be fulfilled litters their pages.
It was good news to Israel that the prophetic time was fulfilled for the appearance of their Messiah and the soon coming of the kingdom.
Contrasting, Paul doesn't use the phrase that it might be fulfilled even once.
The gospel Pauls preached is called a mystery (Eph 6:19), and wasn't spoken by the prophets(Rom 16:25
---michael_e on 8/12/18


Michael_e claims all 4 gospels address the earthly Kingdom to Israel, that would exclude Gentiles, yet John states WHOSOEVER WILL. John 17 Jesus also prays I IN THEM AND THOU IN ME THAT WE MAY BE ONE. This IS the MYSTERY, the CHURCH..not earthly Israel. And also says "wherever I am THEY MAY BE ALSO
" being ONE IN CHRIST. Jesus said "MY KINGDOM" IS NOT OF THIS WORLD, and Jesus Kingdom , the one WE have been translated into is NOT of this world. We are seated WITH CHRIST in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST. Peter reiterates in 2 Peter 1.

Just as Nicole also pointed out Isaac ALSO foreshadowed Jesus death and resurrection. So it was no secret, because a REMNENT ALWAYS KNEW THE MESSIAH WOULD SUFFER AND DIE.
---kathr4453 on 8/12/18


I already showed what Paul says is the MYSTERY is , which is CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY. OUR hope of GLORY is that we are BODY of Christ....THAT is the MYSTERY, being bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh being ONE. Ephesians also state this fact.

So during THIS dispensation of GRACE which Peter also shows GRACE in his writings, both Jew and Gentile become something TOTALLY NEW...a NEW CREATURE...neither Jew or Gentile. THIS IS THE MYSTERY...called the CHURCH. Its all stated in Colossians 1:24-27. Only the CHURCH has CHRIST IN THEM. WE are going to be GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST...something earthly Israel was never promised. The CHURCH is a HEAVENLY called out people of both Jew and Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 8/12/18


Kathr, Paul wrote that letters to the Galatians, not Abraham. Paul was connected all the dots.

Michael_e is saying that Abraham was promised land and a son.

//Isaac was a shadow of Christ..being the child of PROMISE. This miracle child , when Abraham and Sarah were way PAST their time to have children.//

No, Isaac foreshadowed of a father sacrificing his ONLY son. Genesis 22

But, God did sacrifice ONLY Son Jesus Christ.

//There is no mention of the Gospel of the Kingdom even mentioned in Acts or after.//

??? All 4 Gospels. Jesus tells them to wait until He is he has Risen before speaking about His Resurrection.

Acts is a continuation of Luke' Gospel. Ancient Bibles have Luke and Acts as ONE Book.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/12/18


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Jesus in his earthly ministry and the the twelve preached the kingdom gospel.
Peter preached according to prophecy spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 2:36, 3:21)
Peter taught things spoken by the prophets and Paul taught things kept secret from the prophets.
The prophets didn't know Gentile salvation would occur from Israels fall (Rom 11:25). Also kept secret was the new body of believers being created which was separate from the nation of Israel (Eph 3:6).
The prophets spoke about a promised land given to a chosen nation ruling in an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, Paul spoke of Jews and Gentiles reigning in heavenly places judging angels (Eph 2:6).
---michael_e on 8/12/18


Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

It's unfortunate Michael_e that you don't understand this verse. And unfortunate you don't understand Romans 4, or Galatians 3 concerning that Isaac was a type and shadow of Christ..being the child of PROMISE. This miracle child , when Abraham and Sarah were way PAST their time to have children.

And Acts 3:21 by itself anyone can say it means this and that, however Acts 3 clearly show they preached Jesus death and resurrection. They even stated they were witnesses of His resurrection. There is no mention of the Gospel of the Kingdom even mentioned in Acts or after.
---kathr4453 on 8/11/18


1 Peter 1:10-13Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, which things the angels desire to look into.13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
---kath4453 on 8/11/18


This mystery of Christ is distinct from what was spoken of by the prophets since the world began concerning Christ (Acts 3:21, Rom 16:25, Eph 3:1-3).
The mystery salvation is the gospel of Christ: (Paul's gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 Rom 3:20-26, 15:16, Eph 6:19).
The mystery of sanctification is a new creature Jew and Gentile called the church, the boC (Rom 12:5, Eph 4:4).
The most important thing to learn in discerning Gods will in the Bible is to rightly identify and divide the mystery of Christ from what was spoken to the prophets concerning Christ.
What God had spoken of by the mouth of His prophets since the world began is not what God kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21 The 12 preached vs. Rom 16:25 Paul preached).
---michael_e on 8/11/18


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Michael E: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew nothing about the mystery of Christ, nor the preaching of the cross.
They were given promises of a land, and a nation.//

Amen!

In fact they were taught there was only One God.

Abraham was told to leave his own kin and home land was a bigger land of his own and many descendants to occupy the land after his death.

//Fact is the gospel of the kingdom and Pauls gospel are different messages.//

Now, I disagree with that statement.

Jesus is the New Kingdom.

In Him do we Live in.

He is the King and we are His Subjects.

His rules, His commands. Matthew 5:1-12

His Kingdom Matthew 12
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/11/18


Here is THE MYSTERY. The MYSTERY is not Jesus death and resurrection. Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
---kathr4453 on 8/11/18


Also Michael_no intelligent person would REFUSE to read all the facts posted here, and no intelligent person would take what is CLEARLY DEFINED as the MYSTERY and make it something else. Isaiah 53 fortold of Jesus sufferings on the Cross. Things that were prophesied yet ..LIKE REVELATION ...although it's all there, much is hidden from our understanding.

The MYSTERY of GODLINESS is the MYSTERY....of CHRIST IN YOU...and those who have CHRIST IN THEM make up the BOC, both Jew and Gentile, making ONE NEW MAN.

And even with that the 8th day circumcision also foreshadowed the NEW CREATURES, ....explained and now revealed in Colossians 2. The CHURCH defined as CHRIST IN YOU, is the Mystery....Colossians 1:24-27.
---kath4453 on 8/11/18


Galatians 4:28-29 Now we, ( NOTICE PAUL INCLUDES HIMSELF HERE AS WELL) brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Abraham was given two promises.....children of ABOVE, more than the start...being US, the BOC, the Children of PROMISE, and those like the sand of the sea....which are JACOBS CHILDREN Jacob renamed ISRAEL.

Isaac is not Israel. Also Abraham saw the resurrection in a vision when He was about to sacrifice Isaac. Also sacrificing Isaac was a foreshadow of Jesus death and resurrection. NOW WE SEE THIS CLEARLY....at least those who are of the faith OF Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 8/10/18


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Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew nothing about the mystery of Christ, nor the preaching of the cross.
They were given promises of a land, and a nation.
No intelligent student of the Scripture would refuse to hear the facts before making an interpretation or application.
Paul preached Christ dying for our sins, his burial, and resurrection.(1 Cor 15:1-4)
Christ sent his disciples to preach the gospel of the kingdom.(Luke 9:1-6)
The twelve disciples didn't understand the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ while they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.(Luke 18:31-34)
Fact is the gospel of the kingdom and Pauls gospel are different messages.
Intelligent Bible study collects the facts first.
---michael_e on 8/10/18


It's all right here Michael_e. I believe it's YOU who need to learn to rightly divide the word of truth. Paul preaching the GOSPEL OF GRACE TO GENTILES IN GALATIA, was showing them that the Gospel preached to Abraham has now come to them. THIS you refuse to believe even though it's in scripture in black and white.

Galatians 3:8-9

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, ( AKA GENTILES) preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

This Gospel preached to Abraham WAS NOT ABOUT ANY EARTHLY KINGDOM TO ISRAEL.

READ ALL OF GALATIANS.
---kathr4453 on 8/10/18


Michael_e, Romans 16....you are suggesting Paul is suffering from schizophrenia , starting a sentence about the MYSTERY, and then in mid sentence is talking about Israel?

Acts 1:6-7 The Apostles specifically asked Jesus if He was at that time restoring the Kingdom to Israel....which is the Promised earthly Kingdom you are talking about. Jesus did not say YES...did he. he said on,y the Father knows. Peter DID NOT disobey God and preach it anyway.

That Gospel is not then or now preached. That Gospel of the Kingdom is preached AFTER the Church is raptured, resulting in Jesus 2nd coming to EARTH to set up that Kingdom.

Barb, only the Holy Spirit can reveal what John 6 truly means. And it's not canibalism.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/18


Let's look closely at the verses in question. Paul is talking about the Gospel of GRACE that we also see was shown to Abraham ( PLEASE SEE Galatians 3) God did NOT preach the Gospel of the KINGDOM to Abraham.


25 -27Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ.

Please note the above is all one sentence .....not two different subject matters.
---kath4453 on 8/9/18


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Kathr, yes, Jesus is the Passover Lamb. He paid the death penalty for all who enter His Kingdom. His blood cleanses us and His words sanctify us. John 17:17.

I find nothing in John 6 about being crucified with Him but I do find these verses to the contrary, 33, 39, 40, 47, and 54. I believe Jesus is teaching us to take His Words in as Spiritual food for our soul. He sums it up in John 6:62-64. "It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are Life".
If the flesh profits nothing then what is the point to die daily because of it?
---barb on 8/9/18


If you have learned to rightly divide the scriptures, you have heard of the gospel of the grace of God and how it differs from the gospel of the kingdom. One was prophesied and the other kept secret since the world began (a mystery Mark 1:14-15, Rom 16:25).
What God had spoken of by the mouth of His prophets since the world began is not what God kept secret since the world began (Acts 3:21 vs. Rom 16:25). Mixing mystery truth with the message prophesied to Israel has led to many doctrinal heresies and confusions.
---michael_e on 8/9/18


In Romans 6 Paul makes it very clear we are to do good works because we are followers of Christ.

Those who do not do good works are showing by their actions they are not following Jesus.

As Jesus says by their fruits you will know them.

Romans 13:8,9 Paul says those who love will keep the Commandments. He list five here and the fifth Commandment in Ephesians 6:2

Tell me if you do not keep the first three of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 how can you say you are a Christian?

Love GOD love others follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/9/18


Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the bottom line. Only those IN CHRIST AKA being Born Again, walk in OBEDIENCE OF FAITH to those works of faith God has before ordained we should walk in them.

Paul states often in Timothy, Titus etc, about GOOD WORKS. Our initial salvation is just the BEGINNING of something, not the all in all so many claim, and then sit on their rear ends reading books of this and that, snacking on JUNK FOOD ....and think that what it's all about NO. For you to KNOW the will of God concerning YOUR WALK God has before ordained that you should walk in...YOU MUST OBEY . Romans 12:1-2.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/18


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Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

James 2:4. Is not talking about the LAW, or the works of the LAW. Abraham was before the LAW, and Abrahams OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, was not a LAW he worked. Read the content....before just jumping on a single verse without reading the content to understand the meaning. Paul clearly teaches OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY IN ROMANS 16:24-27. But now is made manifest by the scriptures of the Prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God....

So Pauls Gospel was prophecied ...of which now we see and understand.
---kath4453 on 8/9/18


//I don't see where James or Peter deny the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ//
Do you see any place where James or Peter mention Paul's gospel?
Btw,You don't think James 2:24 is the same as Rom 4:5. do you?
---michael_e on 8/8/18


Barb, Jesus ministry on earth was for 31/2 years, knowing shortly He would be doing the will of God and going to the cross. So much of what Jesus taught was salvation resulting from His death and resurrection. He told His Disciples. They didn't understand it at the time, but it was always there. Even John the Baptist testified "BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." That was done through His death and resurrection, all in the OT Tabernacle along with animal sacrifices pointed to such a time.

John 6 TO EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD, is the mystery of the fellowship of His Sufferings, BEING CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST. Where Paul, John, James and Peter ALL testify to this truth.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/18


I don't see where James or Peter deny the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or the fellowship of His Sufferings, which by the way is the VERY HEART OF THE MYSTERY of the Outworking of CHRIST IN YOU. What Paul as well as James and Peter and John are all saying, IF THERE IS NO FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, (James Chapter 1 sets the stage very well) ROMANS 8:16-17 , then you simply are NOT an heir. Paul totally qualifies this many times in ALL OF HIS LETTERS. ITS THE RESULT OF BEING CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.

If perhaps YOU experienced this you would have HEART KNOWLEDGE, and not head knowledge that has never been tested.

OH YES Hebrews also validates the fellowship of His sufferings.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/18


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Kathr, "but he who does the truth, comes to the Light, that his deeds may be shown, that they are wrought in God." John 3:18-21. Show me where Jesus preached obedience to faith.

I don't know what you mean when you say, nothing there says anything about the law? Where? Certainly, the testimony of Jesus says plenty about the law and in the book of Revelation, after His resurrection, the Saints and those born of the Holy Spirit are keepers of the law and of His testimony.

Head knowledge is in our brains and it is through our brain (consciousness) that we connect spiritually to God. Gold tried in fire is the truth and it isn't free. Jesus paid for it with His life and the only Way to get it is through Him.
---barb on 8/8/18


This is the gospel that I believe. If you think it's a false gospel, maybe you need to do some serious study.
1 Cor 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 8/8/18


Michael_e We have a perfect definition with numerous examples of FAITH clearly defined and shown in Hebrews 11. There is no such thing as OT faith vs NT Faith. FAITH IS FAITH period. True faith shows obedience of faith, Paul uses the word OBEDIENCE of faith where James uses the word WORKS of faith. James even uses Abraham JUST LIKE PAUL DID in Romans 4. Paul again uses Abrahams faith in Galatians.

ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM ARE THE HEIRS ACCORDING TO PROMISE

Michael_e REJECTS Galatians Chapter 3 entirely also refusing to believe Paul on the subject.

So michael_e teaches a false gospel.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/18


Barb, OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, as I said shows works OF FAITH. If you really focus on Rev Chapter 2-3 especially the last letter, ....BUY OF ME GOLD TRIED IN THE FIRE....
Explained in James as well, THE TESTING OF YOUR FAITH, AND 1 Peter Chapter 4 ....also compliments Philippians 3.. The FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, being made conformable to His death ....I press on. Barb, these are works of FAITH.

And YES TRUE FAITH has results. Head knowledge does not. And NOTHING here says anything about the works of the law. Abraham's obedience was long before any LAW.

The MYSTERY requires obedience of faith....Christ In YOU, the Hope of GLORY
---kathr4453 on 8/7/18


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Where in the plan of salvation 'do works come into play? Confusion enters when James 2:24 is compared to Rom 4:5.
Many unlearned think they mean the same thing, black is white, up is down.
James didn't believe the same gospel Paul preached
Paul presents his faith in Romans 3 which is placed in the propitiatory work of Christ on the cross. (Rom 3:24-25).
Of course, James couldn't understand this mystery as the book was written to the 12 tribes, not the one body.
Since James faith was in the obedience of the Law according to the commands of the Messiah, then a faith without works would be vain.
Works were needed for justification before the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

T.
---michael_e on 8/7/18


I disagree with both of you. My question is, why doesn't Jesus, after His death and resurrection, know that everything has been accomplished by His work on the cross? Why is Revelation chapters 2 and 3 all about works?

The Son of God finds imperfect works among His churches and demands repentance in order to overcome them. You can read for yourself what happens to those who do not heed His warning.

Jesus is consistent all through the book of Revelation about works. Rev 22:12, "And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give to every man according to his work" and Rev 9:20-21.

Rev. 12:17 and 14:12 is the foundation perfect works are built on.

---barb on 8/7/18


Actually I totally disagree with Michael_e. Romans 16 Paul uses the term, OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, concerning the MYSTERY. Also Hebrews 11 show exactly what obedience of faith is......and not one word there about the Law. Also the Gospel was preached right from Genesis, and more and more of this everlasting covenant ( Gods plan from before the foundation of the world) was revealed ....through Abraham, then through the types and shadows of the Tabernacle...Hebrews points this out) finally realized at the birth of Jesus Christ according to Prophecy.

OT looked forward to the cross, NT looks back to the Cross. The Law, even obeyed by faith never saved a fly. The Promise of Jesus ..the Messiah and our faith in HIM does.
---kathr4453 on 8/7/18


Although works in themselves never saved anyone, they were required under Israel's law for the obedience of faith. Since James faith was in the obedience of the law according to the commands of the Messiah, he could say to the nation,'faith without works is dead.'
Works were needed for justification before the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.
Now we the boC have been delivered from the curse of the law and we now know it's what Christ accomplished by the cross that now justifies us by faith plus nothing.
---michael_e on 7/31/18


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David:

Don't ask me. Argue it out with John. His words are considered scripture, so presumably he's some kind of authority on the subject. Your words and mine are not.
---StrongAxe on 7/24/18


John wrote his letter to congregations - people who were already Christians. He told these people that if we say we are not sinners, the truth is not in us.--StrongAxe on 7/23/18

StrongAxe
But how can these Christians be Sinners, if they were not under the Law? They must sin to be sinners...correct? How can they sin, if they are not under the Law? Take into account, sin is the transgression of the Law.

For Example,
The legal drinking age is 21 in Georgia. Since I am 58, isnt it true that I am not under that Law? Can I transgress a Law I am not under?

How can these Christians be Sinners/transgressors of the Law, when you believe they were not under the Law?
---David on 7/24/18


D:

John wrote his letter to congregations - people who were already Christians. He told these people that if we say we are not sinners, the truth is not in us.
---StrongAxe on 7/23/18


Sinning occasionally and repenting shows that we are still human. ---Samuelbb7 on 7/22/18

Samuel
Do you believe as Jesus taught, that man can not serve two masters? If you do, and you have been born again, how does your sin serve God?
(Romans 6:6)
---D on 7/23/18


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Good point Strong Ax.

Sinning occasionally and repenting shows that we are still human.

Living in sin and not repenting shows we are not Born Again.

We are saved by Grace alone. But we are to walk in love. Love works.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/22/18


David:

You wrote: What is sin evidence of?

An imperfect creation, and all of us are infected with that imperfection.
---StrongAxe on 7/21/18


Good works are just the evidence of salvation.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/18


StrongAxe
What is sin evidence of?
---David on 7/20/18


trey:

Your friend is making a logical fallacy. He is reversing cause and effect. Good works don't create salvation. Salvation creates good works. Once you are transformed by being saved, you will naturally perform good works just because your life will be infused with God's nature. Good works are just the evidence of salvation.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/18


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Salvation is a gift from God given to WHO SO EVER WILL, through our faith in Jesus finished works on the cross. We cannot shed our own blood to cleanse our sin and become perfect in Gods eyes. However we do see in Romans 10 that Israel still wanted to work and establish their own righteousness, vs submitting to the Righteousness of Christ. So Trey, IF your belief of CALVINISM's election were true, Paul would never have even thought to write Romans 10. Where does Romans 10 say anything about Calvinism? Nothing says Israel is not saved because they were not picked out of a hat. It says THEY did not submit to the righteousness of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/18


//Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.//
Looks like our apostle Paul, speaking to the church the body of Christ answered the question.
---michael_e on 7/10/18


Paul taught the same doctrine as Jesus. Jesus taught us to love God, and to love our neighbor.---Monk_Brendan on 7/9/18

Brendan
I agree, but didnt Jesus and Paul teach, You be judged by your works?
Do you see love as Works?
---David on 7/10/18


David said, "Your salvation rests on whether you believe what Jesus taught, or whether you believe the false teachings of man, the NO WORKS Doctrine, they say Paul taught."

First, Paul taught the same doctrine as Jesus. Jesus taught us to love God, and to love our neighbor. Who is my neighbor?

Read Luke 10:30-37

THAT is your neighbor, just as they are mine. The Samaritan had the right idea, whereas the Priest and Levite passed the man, and left him as he was.
---Monk_Brendan on 7/9/18


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Faith, without works, is dead faith.
---Steveng on 7/9/18


Trey
In (John 19:16) someone asked Jesus, What must I do to gain Eternal Life? His answer is found in the following verse, (John 19:17), If you want Eternal Life, keep the commandments.

Your salvation rests on whether you believe what Jesus taught, or whether you believe the false teachings of man, the NO WORKS Doctrine, they say Paul taught.

You only have one of two choices, Jesus either lied to this man, or he told the Truth. What did you decide?
---David on 7/8/18


Trey, one doesn't "obtain" grace or salvation, one simply receives the gifts. Why listen to your friend's opposition to the scripture verses you quoted?
---josef on 7/6/18


St. Paul in Romans says it's NOT the hearers of the law, but the doers of it that are justified by God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/6/18


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