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Explain James 5:19-20

Explain James 5:19-20 if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,..Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. Who's sins? Why only multitude of sins and not ALL sins?

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 9/10/18
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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: And why does anyone have to do something to get some of their sins taken away?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Catholic church teach that you first have to confess your sins to a priest, and then the priest has to grant absolution? The Sacrament of Penance.
---StrongAxe on 9/21/18


Kathr, I am still waiting for your answer.

Why not ALL SINS?

And why does anyone have to do something to get some of their sins taken away?

I thought ONLY Jesus can take away our sins and not WORKS?
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/21/18


Of all the books in the Bible James receives the worst neglect regarding the important question, to whom is the author speaking?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes...
It should be clear to any Sunday school student coloring the picture of Josephs brothers that the twelve tribes refers to the nation Israel (Gen 49:28, Deut 1:23, Exo 28:21, Josh 3:12).
Despite these simple cross references, commentaries and teachers still say James is not written to the twelve tribes of Israel, but that the author intended to write it to Jew and Gentile, even though Gentiles aren't mentioned This type of Bible misinterpretation takes years of mental gymnastics learned in ivory towers to perform.
---michael_e on 9/21/18


God will be All in all. (1.Cor.15:28). Nothing excluded.
---Johnny74 on 9/20/18


Johnny, yes, that is a great one. Or it can also be found in Romans 11, or 1st Corinthians 15:20-28, or perhaps Hebrews 2. 2nd Peter chapter 1, again is awesome.

Also one such plan is the whole chapter of Ezekiel 36, of coarse may not apply directly to the Church, however it is also one of Gods plans with a purpose.

Jesus did say (sic) every jot and tittle will be fulfilled.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/18




Kathr

Gods ultimate plan and purpose is to be found in Colossians 2:5-11.
---Johnny74 on 9/20/18


Johnny, if we knew God's ultimate plan and purpose, which is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...

We would BE God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/20/18


Johnny, what do you think they are. You do read the Bible, correct?
---kathr4453 on 9/20/18


What are God's ultimate plan and purpose?
---Johnny74 on 9/19/18


Gods plan and timing of world events He has told us about will happen regardless of whether man believes or not. We have many instances in scripture to prove this. One we see Abraham and the child of promise. Even though Abraham and Sarah had a lapse of faith and went about it their own way bringing Ishmael into the world did not TWART Gods promise to Abraham and Sarah. Isaac is the child of promise. And he was conceived even when Sarah was past the age of child bearing.

The Lord also brought Israel to the promise land in spite of all the rebellion. Their children 20 and under inherited the promise. It wasn't TWARTED because of a lack of faith. Joshua 1 ...Hebrews 3-4. Mans free will will NEVER TWART Gods plans and purpose.
---kath4453 on 9/19/18




So Kathr, you CAN'T explain why ONLY a multitude of sins are forgiven instead of All.

Either way you are stuck in your intrepation of sins and forgiveness.

Either not all sins are forgiven at death.

Or

One can get their own sins forgiven BECAUSE they helped someone else.


Either way it matches the teaching of Catholic Church as we follow Scripture.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/19/18


kath4454:

You wrote: You also accuse God of not being able to restore the Kingdom to Israel right after Acts 1, because man wouldn't cooperate? YIKES AGAIN? NOTHING TWARTS GODS PURPOSE.

That's not entirely true. In one incident recorded in Matthew 13, Mark 6, Luke 4, and John 44, Jesus said a prophet is not accepted in his own country, as he could not do any miracles in his own country because of THEIR unbelief.
---StrongAxe on 9/19/18


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ : for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To the Jew first does NOT mean the Jews are superior in any way to Gentiles, but it proves it is the very same Gospel that was preached to the Gentiles. It proves there was never two different Gospels. Also reiterating what Jesus said that "Salvation" IS OF the Jews. Also the Kingdom restored to Israel is NOT the Gospel of SALVATION. Yet we see Jews right from the beginning of Act's ask..."what then must WE do to be SAVED". James and Peter NEVER teach Kingdom theology of having to poke out an eye or cut off an hand to enter in.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/18


Peter has them scattered through out all of Asia as well.

The reason so many heard in their own language at Pentecost was they came from all over, being scattered from the time of Solomon's disobedience. Please don't confuse the two. Israel was not at the time of Pentecost A NATION.

When Isaiah 14: 1-7 is fulfilled THEN will Israel become "A NATION". As we have only see in part since 1948. So the reference to the 12 Tribes SCATTERED all over even before the persecution in Jerusalem , shows there was no NATION of Israel. Jerusalem was under the authority of the Romans. Judas turned on Jesus BECAUSE Jesus didn't overthrow Rome and RESTORE THE NATION AND KINGDOM TO ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/18


There were NOT two entirely different Gospels being preached at the same time to Jews. No scripture supports a Jew having a CHOICE to decide which Gospel they chose to belong to, the Nation or the Church. There was no restored Nation. We also see Paul in Acts 19 taking those who only heard of John the Baptist AKA the Kingdom Gospel and Paul STEALS THEM from their nation gospel to the Church????? YIKES!
The Kingdom restored to Israel won't happen UNTIL JESUS SECOND COMING, A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME, ( AKA FUTURE) so says Paul,in Colossians 2:16-17....

You also accuse God of not being able to restore the Kingdom to Israel right after Acts 1, because man wouldn't cooperate? YIKES AGAIN? NOTHING TWARTS GODS PURPOSE.
---kath4454 on 9/19/18


Also just a note, at the time the Kingdom is restored to Israel, SATAN WILL BE BOUND FOR 1000 years first. 1Corinthians 15 also give the correct ORDER of events in verses 20-28. The KINGDOM here in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is the Kingdom restored to Israel that will be the restored NATION. The Church is FIRST and THEN the Kingdom. He MUST REIGN here on earth at that time, again Zechariah 14...Matthew 24-25. Also Isaiah 14..especially look at verses 1-7. The WHOLE EARTH WILL BE AT REST.

If michale_e understood these FACTS he wouldn't fall for his false doctrine.
---kat453 on 9/19/18


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The book of James is basically a book of proverbs. or pieces of good advice, applicable to any Christian. The Twelve Tribes he mentions are simply a symbolic reference to the church is the new Israel.
---Johnny74 on 9/18/18


Acts 8:1 And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
James 1:1, James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting
Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered
"To the Jew first" until Acts 31:27,28
---michael_e on 9/18/18


James letter to the 12 tribes is no different than Pauls letter in Romans addressing ALSO GENTILES. Paul often states in his letters, " to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles. So we see Paul addressing both, and never makes a statement " EXCEPT THOSE JAMES, JOHN PETER, etc have addressed. God is not the author of confusion having two entirely differently gospels being preached at the same time. And there were not two gospels at that time to the Jews. Any intelligent person would see this.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/18


To explain James 5:19,20, you must discover the audience of a book to whom is the author speaking?
The first verse is a clear and inspired statement of James' audience. The twelve tribes refers to the nation Israel (Gen 49:28, Deut 1:23, Exo 28:21, Josh 3:12).
A Bible student worth his salt understands Pauls doctrine of a Gentile inclusive church:
Col. 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew..."
---michael_e on 9/18/18


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Under LAW, there were EARTHLY BLESSINGS for obedience. Today many take those promises to earthly Israel and apply it to the church, (those who are into the PROSPERITY GOSPEL.). Actually this is where the prosperity gospel gets its doctrine.

Today Christians are not under the LAW who have to keep the LAW to receive those earthly blessings. Christians today are under GRACE and we receive SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS.

At that time Israel was not scattered all over the world either.

We live in a much different world. Under those promises to Israel,they would NEVER have been an issue with lead pipes causing all sorts of physical illnesses, and hiding it and lying about it. Just for an example.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/18


Exodus 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Or, more simply, God will free you of health problems if you get right with Him. Sin is not the disease, just the barrier to being free of disease.

(Then again, the fact that even saints get sick and die show that this model is overly simplistic).
---StrongAxe on 9/17/18


OH my gosh, have they legalized recreational marajuana in Alabama, or is what Donald Trump said about southerners true?
---kathr4453 on 9/17/18


Kathr: why are not all Catholics healed of their physical ailments or even mental ones when they confess to a priest.//

Because they are NOT sins.

Are you suggesting illness are sins?

Plus, ONLY sins confessed are forgiven.

Do you think I confess to the Priest any of my illness?

"My back hurts, I have a terrible headache and a bad wound infection in my right knee."

WOW, is that what you really think goes on in the confessional?

Back to work. Not because of the Priests, but to all my medical Doctors.

My Priest didn't know I was sick. Nor keeps He Holy Oil in the confessional.

//So what seems to,be the problem?//

Your lack of understanding.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/17/18


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I WILL say there's something on the whole manner of miraculous healing that God is keeping secret from both of us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


I'd say we do agree here. You should have rolled this one on here first.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/18


\\
So Cluny, there was no need for your rudeness from the beginning. \\

You, on the other hand, never are rude, kathr.

I think what makes you more upset than anything else is because I won't roll over and admit you're right when you fire your first shot.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


I did NOT say the connection was absolute.

I WILL say there's something on the whole manner of miraculous healing that God is keeping secret from both of us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


So Cluny, there was no need for your rudeness from the beginning.

If constant confession to a priest, or one another on a continual basis absolutely resulted in healing, then those actually who,have been practicing this for years on a continual regular basis should never have gotten sick in the first place.

So actually your own words and health issues Cluny do not hold up to some absolute here.

Yes, healing and miracles are totally in Gods hands, not some church doctrines hands. But we all know not all are healed, and many wonderful,Christians who,are NOT Orthodox either experience healing by the Grace of God, or by the Grace of God accept they won't be healed.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/18


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I might as well mention now that Robert Massie in his biography NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA wrote (as someone from the outside looking in), "The Orthodox Church is a very emotional church, with a strong belief in miracles and the power of prayer."

As for my own personal health, God has it under control, and whatever happens will be for His glory and my theosis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/18


Two things first, kathr:

1. Putting in an AV fistula to make a port for dialysis will not affect kidney function.

2. God did NOT appoint you to decide why I don't have 100% KF or lecture me about it.

I don't know if Christians during the Apostolic age were or were not healed.

Why do Christians die after prayer, confession, and anointing? I do not know, either.

Proverbs says there is a time to die. I believe that God Himself chooses the time and manner of our death.

I also know that the time will come when all who love Jesus will be instantly healed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/18


Cluny, praise God the surgery worked and you have been improving in your health. BUT back in James 5 era, there was no surgery for such illnesses. Were they healed instantly back in the time James 5 was written, or did those with kidney failure die because prayer and confession was not enough. AND if you say it was enough, then why today is surgery and dialysis needed?

I'm not accusing you Cluny, as you seem to be so defensive here. The truth is many wonderful Christians die everyday, due to cancer, environmental poisoning issues or just some health issue honey were born with that have nothing to do with a person's sin. Maybe if you weren't so contrary, you would be 100% by now, if you insist your confession is healing you.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/18


\\WHY then do we not see healing from BOTH our Orthodox and RCC who do confess regularly as a result of their belief?\\

Are you so silly that what you don't see is the whole of reality?

In my case, early in 1008, I was dxed with 19% kidney function. At 15%, dialysis is started, so my nephrologist made arrangements to have an AV fistula put in my left arm so it would be ready for dialysis.

Before the surgery, I went to confession, and was anointed. The priest said, "Let's shake the Throne with prayers for our brother."

My KF improved to 40% immediately afterwards.

It's now 62%. Miracle in progress.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/18


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\\Yet you defend the RCC at every turn..correct?\\

Incorrect.

Correcting you where you're wrong about the RCC is not defending it.

Too bad you can't tell the difference.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/18


samuel, it would have been nice to let Cluny answer himself. I dont want to be rude, but the discussion was not about your commonality with the Orthodox. Cluny challenged ME on my comment, and I asked for clarification. I got, a sarcastic reply.

Orthodox do believe in The 'Sacraments of Confession', re: comfessing sins to a priest. SDA's do not. MY QUESTION was, if confession results in healing WHY then do we not see healing from BOTH our Orthodox and RCC who do confess regularly as a result of their belief? OR is it possible not all health reasons are a result of sin.

It was a very simple question, that shouod be answered.

Many take James 5 as an absolute that all sickness is a result of sin, or unconfessed sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/18


No Kathyr. Cluny is saying the Orthodox view that passage different then RCC members. It is like as an SDA I have a slightly different view that for what I can tell matches closely with the Orthodox view.

Yet on other points the Orthodox and me would differ widely.

I just enjoy we we do agree on points. I believe we often have more in common then some people wish.

Love to all. Follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/13/18


Cluny, so what you are saying is in reference to James 5, is that it does NOT apply to the Orthodox Church? So you have an opinion on James 5, but it doesn't apply to you?

Yet you defend the RCC at every turn..correct? Yet when questioned, you then pull the " I'm Orthodox, not RCC card."

How convenient.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/18


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In which case, kathr, why did you address me referring to the Roman Catholic Church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/18


Cluny, this was not about you or you being Orthodox.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/18


Kath, in case you've not grasped it yet, I'm Orthodox, NOT Roman Catholic.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/18


Cluny, if what you say is true, why are not all Catholics healed of their physical ailments or even mental ones when they confess to a priest. Nicole is a good example of someone with health issues to this day. She recently has had to take leave from her job. And you, I understand you are not 100% fit as a fiddle, nor is Monk from what I hear.

So what seems to,be the problem?

Or is it possible some illnesses are not a result of sin?
---kathr4453 on 9/11/18


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Actually, David, James 5 connects physical healing with auricular confession.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/18


Context?
This passage refers to healing the sick, not going to a Confessional.
---David on 9/11/18


Nicole
If we don't do anything, we're not being very good Christians, I would think.
---Johnny74 on 9/10/18


Well, someone who has fallen into error, and continues to teach others that error, and they teach others YOUR ERROR, have not only committed sin, but is responsible for a multitude of sins as a result of the error.

So what we teach others we will be held accountable for. For instance, if you teach that infant baptism saves....that is false doctrine and a false gospel that will lead others to hell. That's the multitude of sin.upon sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/18


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Johnny: The passage is ambiguous. It could mean the sins of either party, or both.//

Okay and I agree.

But did you notice how either one had to DO sometime to cover a multitude of sins.

What do you think about the last statement?

The word 'all' isn't used.

Only 'multitude' was used.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/10/18


The passage is ambiguous. It could mean the sins of either party, or both.
---Johnny74 on 9/10/18


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