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Explain James 5:19-20

Explain James 5:19-20 if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,..Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. Who's sins? Why only multitude of sins and not ALL sins?

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 9/10/18
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Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul ABSOLUTLEY does. Born after the Spirit means BORN AGAIN, Just as Jesus said. So Is Paul saying the CHURCH, who is not born again is persecuting those who are part of the Earthly Kingdom who are Born Again? THATS NUTS. Nothing in Galatians backs that up. The opposite is taught. Also James talks about the perfect LAW OF LIBERTY. That's not to Earthly Israel, who will be under KINGDOM LAW. LIBERTY came through THE CROSS.

Paul also details the New Birth in in 1 Corinthians 15: 45-50. James ALSO in his own words the New Birth is clearly stated James 1:18, 21.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/18


Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, ......

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty, only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

1 Peter 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
---kath4453 on 9/25/18


Our LIBERTY came through THE CROSS. This LIBERTY again is steeped in Galatians when the EARTHLY KINGDOM LEGALISTS came in to try to put them back into BONDAGE.

Both Peter and James clearly teach our LIBERTY. James also,states we will be JUDGED by the Perfect law of LIBERTY. That will happen at the Judgement seat of Christ.

Again, those BORN of the SPIRIT AKA BORN AGAIN, see these truths in scripture, because they are spiritually discerned. Michael_e admits he has not been born of the spirit, therefore he is still fleshly, natural, where the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:13-16 He is taught by MAN, not GOD.
---kat453 on 9/25/18


//Paul understands the Cross, but quoting Paul doesn't mean you do.//
BTW What does James 1// one of the most awesome chapters in a Christians life// even though its addressed to the 12 tribes, say about the Cross of Christ.
Kathr tries to follow Jesus in His earthly ministry, even though Paul says
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Paul is not God, but we find our instructions from the Lord through him sent specifically to the Gentiles and the church called the Body of Christ (Rom 11:13).
Jesus in John 3 speaking to a ruler of the Jews tells him they need to be born again, yet Paul never mentions it, in his gospel.
---michael_e on 9/24/18


Paul understands the Cross, but quoting Paul doesn't mean you do. ARE YOU Crucified to the world and the world you. Have You been crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20-21.

When the King of King comes IN ALL HIS GLORY, He will be riding on a WHITE HORSE, AND SO MUCH MORE...Revelation 19:11-21. And according to Romans 11: 26-36 when the deliverer comes out of Zion( not a manger) and turns away ungodliness from Jacob, Is also cross referenced in Exekiel 36, will then establish the earthly Kingdom. Never happened and then postponed. No reason " to start" and stop. Jesus death and resurrection itself has to take place FIRST, before any Kingdom anyway. Jesus IN THE FLESH, was never suppose to be KING. THE GLORIFIED CHRIST IS.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/18




The Doctrine of the CROSS is Romans 6 and Galatians 2:20-21.

I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, NEVERTHELESS I LIVE, YET NOT I BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME ........Is the mystery spoken in Colossians 1:24-27......CHRIST IN YOU)))))) .......and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.

This is the OFFENSE of the CROSS Paul testifies to in Galatians. This is the doctrine and power of the CROSS. And THIS is what you fail to testify to, showing you don't get it. You already stated you don't believe Pauls words in Galatians, or that we are part of the Covenant God made with Abraham Paul makes CLEAR in Galatians.
---kath4453 on 9/24/18


Michael_e, you already showed your hand that you, like any CULT pick and choose what verses you like that you can twist into your false doctrine. The very FACT you deny Paul, who stated clearly in Galatians that WE, the CHURCH are Abrahams seed and heirs according to promise.

Any doctrine that claims they are not part of ANY COVENANT in scripture, and makes up their own doctrine is no different than what Joseph Smith did...by saying...hay, believe me alone, with no scriptural back-up, but just say..hay...it's the MYSTERY. WRONG?

The MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU. YOU make it something not even found in scripture, and then throw out here scripture having NOTHING to do with the MYSTERY, and call it the MYSTERY.
---kat453 on 9/24/18


In my previous post I mentioned love holds no record of wrongs.

From 1 Cor 13:5...different versions state keep no record of wrongs, or wrongdoing, or wrong(s) suffered, some versions state think no evil, take no account of evil.wrong(s)...or impute evil.
---chria9396 on 9/24/18


//Michael_e simply does NOT understand the doctrine of THE CROSS.//
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more
BTW What does James say about the cross work of Christ?
//He didn't come to His own AS THEIR KING.//
Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
---michael_e on 9/24/18


He didn't come to His own AS THEIR KING. In the OT there were Two comings concerning the Promised Messiah, one fortold His death and resurrection , and the other fortold of the King. Isaiah 53 also foretold of them rejecting the promised messiah who would suffer and die for their sins. Not suffer and die because He wanted to be KING.

Not all rejected Jesus, as He had many followers. John 6 Jesus stating to eat my flesh and drink my blood was NEVER part of being KING. He was pointing to His death and resurrection, and THAT is where they did not receive Him. Jesus also says in John 6, that that wanted to make Him King and He slipped away.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/18




Zechariah 12:10-14 , "and they shall looked upon me whom they have pierced(sic) and they shall mourn....

They will know when they see the nail prints in His hands.


When Jesus was about to be Crucified, They mocked Him and put a crown of thorns upon His head that read...KING OF THE JEWS. Also remember Jesus saying MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. Yet the earthly Kingdom WILL BE of this world, and when Jesus does reign as KING Zechariah 14:16-21....will be like a time none other ON EARTH.

The Church will reign and rule with Christ at that time ...those who,suffer with Him that is...so states PAUL. So nothing was started and then stopped. It's never started ....it CAN'T until Jesus returns.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/18


Continued:
Returns WITH THE CHURCH. SOOOOO, The Kingdom was foretold, but never postponed because Israel rejected it ....

Adam and Eve were EARTHLY, as was Israel. Our NEW MAN, The NEW CREATURE are SONS, begotten through Jesus Christ. This is our NEW BIRTH, our Born Again experience.

We are Born of God, and Jesus, THE LAST ADAM is that life Giving Spirit. 1Corinthians 15:45-50, Made possible via THE CROSS, where our old Adam DIED WITH CHRIST, and our NEW MAN BORN AGAIN OF GOD.

Michael_e simply does NOT understand the doctrine of THE CROSS. The mystery isn't that Jesus died and rose again, but that WE died with Him and rose up together with Him resulting in Colossians 1:24-27....CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY.
---kath4453 on 9/24/18


//They did not reject their KING//
They rejected him because He didn't come the way they thought He should
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead, whereof we are witnesses.
---michael_e on 9/23/18


"How were the Jews supposed to know that Jesus was their King? So many fake messiahs had already shown up. Why should they believe he was not just another one?---Johnny74 on 9/23/18
Fulfilled written prophesy concerning Him.
---joseph on 9/23/18


They did not reject their KING, because Jesus birth was not the way THE KING was first to come. It's the GLORIFIED Christ, the one who died and rose again who is and will be KING. This is why Judas betrayed Jesus, because THE KING overthrows gentile world power...and it NEVER happened when Jesus was on earth or YET to this day. When Jesus rode on a donkey , showed His first coming was NOT the coming of the KING, but the coming of the savior. He humbled Himself, and became obedient into death even death of a cross. This was ALWAYS Gods plan. We see also in Zechariah 12-14 the SECOND COMING of the King in all His GLORY. He was GLORIFIED after He ascended into Heaven after His resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/18


It's also frightening that michael_e does not believe Paul,in Galatians, written to GENTILE Christians. Or does he believe Abraham is where the promise of the Spirit promised to Gentiles was first stated.

Also our NEW CREATURE raised up together with Christ is our NEW BIRTH, via THE CROSS. Romans 6. Our old Adam is our first birth.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

No wonder you don't understand truth, since you say you have never been born again.
---kath4453 on 9/23/18


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How were the Jews supposed to know that Jesus was their King? So many fake messiahs had already shown up. Why should they believe he was not just another one?
---Johnny74 on 9/23/18


//I believe you said the Jews rejected the Kingdom and that is why God gave the Gospel to Paul to give to the Gentiles//
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Acts 2:36 Acts 7
//Didn't happen in Acts either//
They rejected their King
//Can man, according to Ezekiel 36, actually reject the Kingdom? //
Man can actually rejected their King
//Born again//
Only Israel could be born again, because only Israel was born unto God a first time (Exo 4:22).
---michael_e on 9/23/18


Salvation is OF the Jews, not FOR THE JEWS. ...not the JW's religion or Mormons religion or Buddah religion or Hindu religion or Islams religion. Our Gospel friends is grounded in the Jews religion, where the Messiah promised was prophesied to die and rise again. This was no mystery. Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 -24 speak of the sufferings of Christ THE MESSIAH and the ascention of the King, the Lord of Glory...one I the same. Abel's blood sacrifice pointed to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

The CHURCH is build upon the LAMBS book of life. Everything concerning the Messiah pointed to SALVATION. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgivness of sin. There's only ONE CROSS where Jesus died and shed His blood.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/18


In Ephesians 2 and in Hebrews 8 we see the True Israel is those who are Born Again. Because being full of the Holy Spirit makes us a child of Abraham.

Read the words of John the Baptist to the Pharisees.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/23/18


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The OT prophecied of the Kingdom restored to Israel. We see this in Ezekiel 36, ALL OF EZEKIEL 36 from the first verse to the last. It tells of God bringing them back to the Land He originally gave them, Israel, with Jerusalem as the Capital. We see the GOD does it regardless, and there are no IF you will then I will conditions here.

James and Peter send letters to the scattered, ..obviously weren't brought back to the land as promised, and we see a total destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70ad and even more distraction to Jerusalem in 135ad. So NO, Exekiel has NEVER been fully fulfilled to this day. Nothing can TWART Gods plan, not even man, as we see Exekiel makes perfectly clear.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/18


So considering Exekiel 36 for one place foretelling of the Kingdom restored to Israel, we don't see this happening in Acts in any way shape or form, nor do we see any of the apostles preaching this. Scripture must back scripture. Prophecy ..to the last jot and tittle must be fulfilled, not HALF, or something here or there that may look like it.

In Acts, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED, does not add up to Ezekiel 36. Also,we see in Revelation the sealing of the 144,000 out of the tribes of Israel....another sign leading to the fulfillment of the Kingdom restored to Israel. Hasn't happened yet. Didn't happen in Acts either.
---kath4453 on 9/23/18


So my question michael_e, is WHERE IS THE KINGDOM RESTORED TO ISRAEL, ...what happened to it? I believe you said the Jews rejected the Kingdom and that is why God gave the Gospel to Paul to give to the Gentiles.

Can man, according to Ezekiel 36, actually reject the Kingdom?

You also,said the BOC is not Born again, but only those in the Kingdom restored to Israel. Yet Paul was BORN out of due time. BORN WHAT? Born Again? Were all Jews who were saved and part of the Church also BORN out of due time?

Paul preaches the 'Gospel of CHRIST' to Jews and also Gentiles as early as 55ad, when he wrote Romans. That was not a prision epistle. Paul was in a Roman prison when he wrote Timothy, nearly 15 years later.
---kat453 on 9/23/18


Wilderness Church referenced by Stephen Acts 7:38. Israel following Moses.
Temple Church, Acts 2:44-47. added to at Pentecost led by Peter, James and John formed from the remnant of believing Israel. Faith in Jesus as the Messiah plus water baptism required. The twelve sitting on twelve thrones in the coming earthly kingdom.
The BoC Church, referenced by Paul Col 1:24. Began with Jesus saving Paul out of due time (1 Cor 15:8). The message was a mystery kept secret before. Includes Jews and Gentiles together but not under a law.
Their conversation is in heavenly places.
Today, God's building the BoC. Mixing instructions of these Churches with our instructions is like building with the wrong material (1 Cor 3:13).
---michael_e on 9/22/18


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The Book of Revelation has caused more mischief than any other book in the Bible.
---Johnny74 on 9/22/18


The 12 taught Israel is still standing and prophecy is being fulfilled. (Acts 2:16-17, 3:21,24-26)
Paul taught Israel is fallen and the prophecies are postponed. (Rom 3:10,19,11:11,25, 16:25)
The 12 taught salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22, Mat 19:28, 1 Pet 1:10, Rev 21:14)
Paul taught salvation sent to Gentiles through the Apostle of the Gentiles. (Rom 11:13, Col 1:25, 2 Tim 1:11, 1 Cor 3:10)
The 12 taught justification by faith in Jesus as the Messiah accompanied by necessary works. (Jam 2:24, 1 John 2:5, Mat 19:27, Heb 10:26)
Paul taught justification by faith alone in the cross work of Christ. (Rom 4:5, Eph 2:8-9, Tit 3:5, 1 Cor 15:1-4)
---michael_e on 9/22/18


The Kingdom restored to Israel is the 1000 year Millennial reign at the end of Revelation, we also see the first resurrection has happened. This never happened at the beginning of Acts. This will happen prior to the 2nd coming of Christ. WE the Church will be those resurrected, and will be in our Glorified bodies reigning and ruling with Christ at that time. The sheep vs goats in Matthew are the Gentiles who did not come against Israel during the great tribulation, who will enter into the 1000 year reign.

Revelation 12 also is that of the rebirth of Israel the Nation, which has not happened yet nor will it until AFTER the Church is complete.

There is no way this was preached or even began at the beginning of ACTS.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/18


Those who are led and taught by the Holy Spirit do not have to preform years of mental gymnastics. It's the Holy Spirit that reveals truth to our inner man, our NEW MAN, and it comes through the fellowship of His sufferings of which ALL who are Born Again will experience.

I would say, if mental gymnastics are required to simply be enlightened by God of His wisdom and knowledge, I would first question if I were really in the faith.

James is simply stating that HEAD KNOWLEDGE, like so many have is no proof of salvation. I couldn't agree more. The PROOF of our salvation is that we are being CHANGED from glory to glory by the spirit of the Lord...NOT MENTAL GYMNASTICS.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/18


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Michael_e, Just because something doesn't say something, doesn't PROVE its saying something else. Paul doesn't ALWAYS address to Jew or Gentiles, but TO THE CHURCH HERE OR THERE. You claim there were two churches. WRONG.

There was NO NATION OF ISRAEL. If there was, he would have addressed it to the NATION OF ISRAEL, clarifying it so Seeing many Jews were addressed by Paul in the Church. But more importantly James is NOT about Kingdom LAW...if you actually understood Kingdom law. It's also not even about THE LAW, either, as Abraham and Rahab are used as examples of FAITH where neither is examples of Kingdom Law or LAW. The LAW is not of faith. Neither is KINGDOM LAW.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/18


James Chapter 1 is one of the most awesome chapters in a Christians life. The trials and testing of our faith, and it's promised results if we abide under these testings. Paul,gives a parallel testimony in Philippians 3...the fellowship of His sufferings and its promised results ...all conforming us to the image of Jesus Christ. Peter too testifies to this in. 1st Peter 4, WHY we go through these sufferings, trials etc.

Only those with head knowledge would argue against this, because they personally have never experienced how the Lord works in our lives. For some to think,that Peter and James and John have to mimicking word for word Paul, is rediculous.
---kath4453 on 9/22/18


Multitude: Strong's G4128 plethos. A fullness. a large number.

Nicole, why can't all, being a large number, be a multitude, or can it?

If "love covers all transgressions" pv 10:12, and love/charity holds no record of wrongs 1 cor 13
then multitude could mean all.

If a sinner is turned from the error of their way, what way is he/she turned to? THE WAY=Jesus Christ, did He cover all or some sin?
---chria9396 on 9/22/18


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: And why does anyone have to do something to get some of their sins taken away?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Catholic church teach that you first have to confess your sins to a priest, and then the priest has to grant absolution? The Sacrament of Penance.
---StrongAxe on 9/21/18


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Kathr, I am still waiting for your answer.

Why not ALL SINS?

And why does anyone have to do something to get some of their sins taken away?

I thought ONLY Jesus can take away our sins and not WORKS?
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/21/18


Of all the books in the Bible James receives the worst neglect regarding the important question, to whom is the author speaking?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes...
It should be clear to any Sunday school student coloring the picture of Josephs brothers that the twelve tribes refers to the nation Israel (Gen 49:28, Deut 1:23, Exo 28:21, Josh 3:12).
Despite these simple cross references, commentaries and teachers still say James is not written to the twelve tribes of Israel, but that the author intended to write it to Jew and Gentile, even though Gentiles aren't mentioned This type of Bible misinterpretation takes years of mental gymnastics learned in ivory towers to perform.
---michael_e on 9/21/18


God will be All in all. (1.Cor.15:28). Nothing excluded.
---Johnny74 on 9/20/18


Johnny, yes, that is a great one. Or it can also be found in Romans 11, or 1st Corinthians 15:20-28, or perhaps Hebrews 2. 2nd Peter chapter 1, again is awesome.

Also one such plan is the whole chapter of Ezekiel 36, of coarse may not apply directly to the Church, however it is also one of Gods plans with a purpose.

Jesus did say (sic) every jot and tittle will be fulfilled.
---kathr4453 on 9/20/18


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Kathr

Gods ultimate plan and purpose is to be found in Colossians 2:5-11.
---Johnny74 on 9/20/18


Johnny, if we knew God's ultimate plan and purpose, which is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...

We would BE God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/20/18


Johnny, what do you think they are. You do read the Bible, correct?
---kathr4453 on 9/20/18


What are God's ultimate plan and purpose?
---Johnny74 on 9/19/18


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Gods plan and timing of world events He has told us about will happen regardless of whether man believes or not. We have many instances in scripture to prove this. One we see Abraham and the child of promise. Even though Abraham and Sarah had a lapse of faith and went about it their own way bringing Ishmael into the world did not TWART Gods promise to Abraham and Sarah. Isaac is the child of promise. And he was conceived even when Sarah was past the age of child bearing.

The Lord also brought Israel to the promise land in spite of all the rebellion. Their children 20 and under inherited the promise. It wasn't TWARTED because of a lack of faith. Joshua 1 ...Hebrews 3-4. Mans free will will NEVER TWART Gods plans and purpose.
---kath4453 on 9/19/18


So Kathr, you CAN'T explain why ONLY a multitude of sins are forgiven instead of All.

Either way you are stuck in your intrepation of sins and forgiveness.

Either not all sins are forgiven at death.

Or

One can get their own sins forgiven BECAUSE they helped someone else.


Either way it matches the teaching of Catholic Church as we follow Scripture.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/19/18


kath4454:

You wrote: You also accuse God of not being able to restore the Kingdom to Israel right after Acts 1, because man wouldn't cooperate? YIKES AGAIN? NOTHING TWARTS GODS PURPOSE.

That's not entirely true. In one incident recorded in Matthew 13, Mark 6, Luke 4, and John 44, Jesus said a prophet is not accepted in his own country, as he could not do any miracles in his own country because of THEIR unbelief.
---StrongAxe on 9/19/18


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ : for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To the Jew first does NOT mean the Jews are superior in any way to Gentiles, but it proves it is the very same Gospel that was preached to the Gentiles. It proves there was never two different Gospels. Also reiterating what Jesus said that "Salvation" IS OF the Jews. Also the Kingdom restored to Israel is NOT the Gospel of SALVATION. Yet we see Jews right from the beginning of Act's ask..."what then must WE do to be SAVED". James and Peter NEVER teach Kingdom theology of having to poke out an eye or cut off an hand to enter in.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/18


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Peter has them scattered through out all of Asia as well.

The reason so many heard in their own language at Pentecost was they came from all over, being scattered from the time of Solomon's disobedience. Please don't confuse the two. Israel was not at the time of Pentecost A NATION.

When Isaiah 14: 1-7 is fulfilled THEN will Israel become "A NATION". As we have only see in part since 1948. So the reference to the 12 Tribes SCATTERED all over even before the persecution in Jerusalem , shows there was no NATION of Israel. Jerusalem was under the authority of the Romans. Judas turned on Jesus BECAUSE Jesus didn't overthrow Rome and RESTORE THE NATION AND KINGDOM TO ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 9/19/18


There were NOT two entirely different Gospels being preached at the same time to Jews. No scripture supports a Jew having a CHOICE to decide which Gospel they chose to belong to, the Nation or the Church. There was no restored Nation. We also see Paul in Acts 19 taking those who only heard of John the Baptist AKA the Kingdom Gospel and Paul STEALS THEM from their nation gospel to the Church????? YIKES!
The Kingdom restored to Israel won't happen UNTIL JESUS SECOND COMING, A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME, ( AKA FUTURE) so says Paul,in Colossians 2:16-17....

You also accuse God of not being able to restore the Kingdom to Israel right after Acts 1, because man wouldn't cooperate? YIKES AGAIN? NOTHING TWARTS GODS PURPOSE.
---kath4454 on 9/19/18


Also just a note, at the time the Kingdom is restored to Israel, SATAN WILL BE BOUND FOR 1000 years first. 1Corinthians 15 also give the correct ORDER of events in verses 20-28. The KINGDOM here in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is the Kingdom restored to Israel that will be the restored NATION. The Church is FIRST and THEN the Kingdom. He MUST REIGN here on earth at that time, again Zechariah 14...Matthew 24-25. Also Isaiah 14..especially look at verses 1-7. The WHOLE EARTH WILL BE AT REST.

If michale_e understood these FACTS he wouldn't fall for his false doctrine.
---kat453 on 9/19/18


The book of James is basically a book of proverbs. or pieces of good advice, applicable to any Christian. The Twelve Tribes he mentions are simply a symbolic reference to the church is the new Israel.
---Johnny74 on 9/18/18


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Acts 8:1 And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem, and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
James 1:1, James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting
Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered
"To the Jew first" until Acts 31:27,28
---michael_e on 9/18/18


James letter to the 12 tribes is no different than Pauls letter in Romans addressing ALSO GENTILES. Paul often states in his letters, " to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles. So we see Paul addressing both, and never makes a statement " EXCEPT THOSE JAMES, JOHN PETER, etc have addressed. God is not the author of confusion having two entirely differently gospels being preached at the same time. And there were not two gospels at that time to the Jews. Any intelligent person would see this.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/18


To explain James 5:19,20, you must discover the audience of a book to whom is the author speaking?
The first verse is a clear and inspired statement of James' audience. The twelve tribes refers to the nation Israel (Gen 49:28, Deut 1:23, Exo 28:21, Josh 3:12).
A Bible student worth his salt understands Pauls doctrine of a Gentile inclusive church:
Col. 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew..."
---michael_e on 9/18/18


Under LAW, there were EARTHLY BLESSINGS for obedience. Today many take those promises to earthly Israel and apply it to the church, (those who are into the PROSPERITY GOSPEL.). Actually this is where the prosperity gospel gets its doctrine.

Today Christians are not under the LAW who have to keep the LAW to receive those earthly blessings. Christians today are under GRACE and we receive SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS.

At that time Israel was not scattered all over the world either.

We live in a much different world. Under those promises to Israel,they would NEVER have been an issue with lead pipes causing all sorts of physical illnesses, and hiding it and lying about it. Just for an example.
---kathr4453 on 9/18/18


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Exodus 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Or, more simply, God will free you of health problems if you get right with Him. Sin is not the disease, just the barrier to being free of disease.

(Then again, the fact that even saints get sick and die show that this model is overly simplistic).
---StrongAxe on 9/17/18


OH my gosh, have they legalized recreational marajuana in Alabama, or is what Donald Trump said about southerners true?
---kathr4453 on 9/17/18


Kathr: why are not all Catholics healed of their physical ailments or even mental ones when they confess to a priest.//

Because they are NOT sins.

Are you suggesting illness are sins?

Plus, ONLY sins confessed are forgiven.

Do you think I confess to the Priest any of my illness?

"My back hurts, I have a terrible headache and a bad wound infection in my right knee."

WOW, is that what you really think goes on in the confessional?

Back to work. Not because of the Priests, but to all my medical Doctors.

My Priest didn't know I was sick. Nor keeps He Holy Oil in the confessional.

//So what seems to,be the problem?//

Your lack of understanding.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/17/18


I WILL say there's something on the whole manner of miraculous healing that God is keeping secret from both of us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


I'd say we do agree here. You should have rolled this one on here first.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/18


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\\
So Cluny, there was no need for your rudeness from the beginning. \\

You, on the other hand, never are rude, kathr.

I think what makes you more upset than anything else is because I won't roll over and admit you're right when you fire your first shot.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


I did NOT say the connection was absolute.

I WILL say there's something on the whole manner of miraculous healing that God is keeping secret from both of us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/16/18


So Cluny, there was no need for your rudeness from the beginning.

If constant confession to a priest, or one another on a continual basis absolutely resulted in healing, then those actually who,have been practicing this for years on a continual regular basis should never have gotten sick in the first place.

So actually your own words and health issues Cluny do not hold up to some absolute here.

Yes, healing and miracles are totally in Gods hands, not some church doctrines hands. But we all know not all are healed, and many wonderful,Christians who,are NOT Orthodox either experience healing by the Grace of God, or by the Grace of God accept they won't be healed.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/18


I might as well mention now that Robert Massie in his biography NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA wrote (as someone from the outside looking in), "The Orthodox Church is a very emotional church, with a strong belief in miracles and the power of prayer."

As for my own personal health, God has it under control, and whatever happens will be for His glory and my theosis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/18


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Two things first, kathr:

1. Putting in an AV fistula to make a port for dialysis will not affect kidney function.

2. God did NOT appoint you to decide why I don't have 100% KF or lecture me about it.

I don't know if Christians during the Apostolic age were or were not healed.

Why do Christians die after prayer, confession, and anointing? I do not know, either.

Proverbs says there is a time to die. I believe that God Himself chooses the time and manner of our death.

I also know that the time will come when all who love Jesus will be instantly healed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/15/18


Cluny, praise God the surgery worked and you have been improving in your health. BUT back in James 5 era, there was no surgery for such illnesses. Were they healed instantly back in the time James 5 was written, or did those with kidney failure die because prayer and confession was not enough. AND if you say it was enough, then why today is surgery and dialysis needed?

I'm not accusing you Cluny, as you seem to be so defensive here. The truth is many wonderful Christians die everyday, due to cancer, environmental poisoning issues or just some health issue honey were born with that have nothing to do with a person's sin. Maybe if you weren't so contrary, you would be 100% by now, if you insist your confession is healing you.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/18


\\WHY then do we not see healing from BOTH our Orthodox and RCC who do confess regularly as a result of their belief?\\

Are you so silly that what you don't see is the whole of reality?

In my case, early in 1008, I was dxed with 19% kidney function. At 15%, dialysis is started, so my nephrologist made arrangements to have an AV fistula put in my left arm so it would be ready for dialysis.

Before the surgery, I went to confession, and was anointed. The priest said, "Let's shake the Throne with prayers for our brother."

My KF improved to 40% immediately afterwards.

It's now 62%. Miracle in progress.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/18


\\Yet you defend the RCC at every turn..correct?\\

Incorrect.

Correcting you where you're wrong about the RCC is not defending it.

Too bad you can't tell the difference.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/14/18


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samuel, it would have been nice to let Cluny answer himself. I dont want to be rude, but the discussion was not about your commonality with the Orthodox. Cluny challenged ME on my comment, and I asked for clarification. I got, a sarcastic reply.

Orthodox do believe in The 'Sacraments of Confession', re: comfessing sins to a priest. SDA's do not. MY QUESTION was, if confession results in healing WHY then do we not see healing from BOTH our Orthodox and RCC who do confess regularly as a result of their belief? OR is it possible not all health reasons are a result of sin.

It was a very simple question, that shouod be answered.

Many take James 5 as an absolute that all sickness is a result of sin, or unconfessed sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/18


No Kathyr. Cluny is saying the Orthodox view that passage different then RCC members. It is like as an SDA I have a slightly different view that for what I can tell matches closely with the Orthodox view.

Yet on other points the Orthodox and me would differ widely.

I just enjoy we we do agree on points. I believe we often have more in common then some people wish.

Love to all. Follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/13/18


Cluny, so what you are saying is in reference to James 5, is that it does NOT apply to the Orthodox Church? So you have an opinion on James 5, but it doesn't apply to you?

Yet you defend the RCC at every turn..correct? Yet when questioned, you then pull the " I'm Orthodox, not RCC card."

How convenient.
---kathr4453 on 9/13/18


In which case, kathr, why did you address me referring to the Roman Catholic Church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/12/18


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Cluny, this was not about you or you being Orthodox.
---kathr4453 on 9/12/18


Kath, in case you've not grasped it yet, I'm Orthodox, NOT Roman Catholic.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/18


Cluny, if what you say is true, why are not all Catholics healed of their physical ailments or even mental ones when they confess to a priest. Nicole is a good example of someone with health issues to this day. She recently has had to take leave from her job. And you, I understand you are not 100% fit as a fiddle, nor is Monk from what I hear.

So what seems to,be the problem?

Or is it possible some illnesses are not a result of sin?
---kathr4453 on 9/11/18


Actually, David, James 5 connects physical healing with auricular confession.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/11/18


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Context?
This passage refers to healing the sick, not going to a Confessional.
---David on 9/11/18


Nicole
If we don't do anything, we're not being very good Christians, I would think.
---Johnny74 on 9/10/18


Well, someone who has fallen into error, and continues to teach others that error, and they teach others YOUR ERROR, have not only committed sin, but is responsible for a multitude of sins as a result of the error.

So what we teach others we will be held accountable for. For instance, if you teach that infant baptism saves....that is false doctrine and a false gospel that will lead others to hell. That's the multitude of sin.upon sin.
---kathr4453 on 9/10/18


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