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God Or Jesus Miracles

Who did the miracles originate from in the bible, God or Jesus?

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 ---Steveng on 11/6/18
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David, I didnt say those verses said anything about Jesus being resurrected in the spirit. I used those scriptures in response to your question to me asking who was preaching to the spirits?

You have difficulty believing Jesus died despite the overwhelming scripture evidence to say he did. Those scriptures I cite show clearly Jesus was dead 3 days. After 3 days, his Father Jehovah God resurrected him. Yes, Jesus was put to death in the flesh. After 3 days, he was made alive by God, in the spirit.
---David8318 on 11/15/18


David you are mistaken. Jesus was both GOD and man. While GOD cannot die. Men can and do. Now how he is both is not possible for us to understand.

Your argument fails because GOD didn't die. But the man Jesus did. But he arose on Sunday then on Pentecost returned to heaven. Where he is now our High Priest.

2Peter 3:18

but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

To be our Lord and Savior he must be GOD.

1Ti 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 1Ti 2:3

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
---Samuelbb7 on 11/15/18


//Why quote those verses?//- David.

So what do you think Jesus was doing during those 3 days? Was he holding his breath? Was he still in the flesh ? Was he in the spirit? Or was he dead?

Those verses state Jesus was raised up or resurrected after 3 days. This obviously helps understand 1 Peter 3:18,19. Jesus was not preaching to the spirits when he was in the flesh neither when he was dead for 3 days. He was preaching to the spirits after his resurrection as a spirit after tasting death 3 days.

I know you have difficulty believing Jesus was really dead. But he really was dead 3 days before being resurrected as a spirit.
---David8318 on 11/15/18


Jesus was resurrected and "made alive in the spirit" on the 3rd day- see Mt.16:21, 17:23, 27:63, Lu.24:46.---David8318

Why do you quote these verses, when none of them say Jesus was made alive in the spirit on the third day?
---David on 11/15/18


//becoming obedient to death//- RichardC.

The contradiction RichardC is the trinitarian belief that Jesus is the eternal God and yet Phil.2:8 as you quote states Jesus "becoming obedient to death". How can God die?

Habakkuk 1:12 clearly states "My God, my Holy One, you will never die" (NIV). There's your contradiction because Scripture states Jesus did die!

So the fact is, Jesus was/is not God. Jesus was God's son who became flesh so that he could die on our behalf & allow God his Father to show his power over death by resurrecting Jesus. Thus providing a "guarantee" of the resurrection- Acts 17:31 ("assurance" KJV, "proof" NIV).
---David8318 on 11/14/18




//If Jesus was completely dead...[1Pe.3:18,19]//- David.

You say "if"?? So trinitarians do question the death and resurrection of the Christ.

Jesus was put to death in the flesh and remained dead 3 days- "the Son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"- Mt.12:40 (NIV). Jesus was resurrected and "made alive in the spirit" on the 3rd day- see Mt.16:21, 17:23, 27:63, Lu.24:46.

Jesus had to die completely so that, "he... should taste death for every man."- Heb.2:9 (KJV). Why do you deny scripture that Jesus tasted death for 3 days.

It's obvious Jesus was preaching 'to the spirits' after Jehovah resurrected him on the 3rd day.
---David8318 on 11/14/18


... He is so far above you, spiritually, that YOU cannot understand HIM, much less God! He knows the Bible--even the KJV (in all its varieties) much more than you do.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/13/18

Satan also had a problem exalting himself. Pride always comes before a fall. Watch your step you two. Remember Peter your first pope was an unlearned man, the arrogant Jews made fun of. Seems you are follows in their haughty arrogance.

Your comments Monk are actually laughable, so unbecoming of a Monk, much less a man. Are you perhaps a woman with such catty remarks? Or a fragile man hiding behind sack cloth pretending to be spiritually superior?

I am what I am by the Grace of God, and would NEVER make such a remark.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/18


//quoting Scripture to Jesus//- Cluny.

That's because the Pharisees and Satan "stumble" over what the Christ said- Matt.15:12.

The common denominator between Cluny, the Pharisee's and Satan is that scripture is not their base line. Cluny's base line is his unorthodox church and its man-made pagan trinity dogma. Regardless of what scripture states.

As Jesus said to those who do not hold to the word of God, "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition... They worship me in vain, their teachings are merely human rules"- Mt.15:6-9. (NIV)

Cluny isn't ruled by God and his word but by traditions of unorthodox men
---David8318 on 11/14/18


Monk I find it humorous that after Cluny attacks me on everything from punctuation to spelling, as you yourself do have the audacity to pretend it's the other way around.

I asked Cluny to stop attacking me. He asked me a question, without sincerity, but in a snide way, like he does to so many others here, and that he should know the answer to, and NEVER should have asked me in the first place?

Did he ask you to fight his battles? Or are you just a busy-body? Actually I think it's some game you both play here and have for some time.

Why does the CROSS bother you both? That's the real issue behind your assaults.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/18


Kathr4435 said: "Cluny, you've never been crucified with Christ. You are saying you have never been baptized into His death and raised up together with Him a New Creature? So Col 3:1-4 really means nothing to your religious beliefs? That's obvious, as I have always said, we have very little in common.

Your tone shows you are still aggressively stalking me wanting to start an argument."


Stop attacking Cluny! He is so far above you, spiritually, that YOU cannot understand HIM, much less God! He knows the Bible--even the KJV (in all its varieties) much more than you do.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/13/18




Firstly, no ones soul and spirit die when their body dies, so why should Jesus'?

Luke show a place called Abraham's bosom. This is just a name given to a place for those righteous souls who died, but we're waiting for the Promised Redeemer to bring them into Heaven after His resurrection. Jesus lead the way. Paradise is where Abraham's bosom was. We also see those in Hades LOOKED UP and asked for water. So we see, paradise, Abraham's bosom was UP above. Jesus soul went to the UP part, but may have preached to those in the below part as Peter suggests. Not to give them a second chance, but to maybe say....YOU REFUSED TO BELIEVE IN ME, and that's why you are where you are.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/18


If you believe Jesus did not die completely and was resurrected, you are lost!--David8318 on 11/12/18

(1 Peter 3)18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

David
If Jesus was completely dead, body and spirit, who was preaching to the spirits in prison?
---David on 11/13/18


Cluny, you've never been crucified with Christ..Galatians 2:20-21? You are saying you have never been baptized into His death and raised up together with Him a New Creature? So Colossians 3:1-4 really means nothing to your religious beliefs? That's obvious, as I have always said, we have very little in common.

Your tone shows you are still aggressively stalking me wanting to start an argument. Not having it. I gave the scripture, it's for YOU TO ASK THE LORD TO EXPLAIN, that is if you have a personal relationship with Him where you can ask Him personally, and not have to go to a Bishop or book for your answer.

Did I misspell any words you'd like to attack too?
---kathr4453 on 11/13/18


Philippians 2:6 - Who, being very nature God, did not consider equality with God to be used to his own advantage :

Philippians 2:7 - Rather he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness,

Philippians 2:8 - And being found in appearance as a man, humbled him self by becoming obedient to death even death on the cross,

( ------> very nature of a servant <------- Equality : state of being equal - If people think Jesus is not God , I tell you: You have a mass of Contradiction in the gospel you preach ! )

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shalt the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
---RichardC on 11/12/18


Just as Jesus is the SON of God, I am the SON of my father. Am I also my father?

I am in the likeness of my father not only in outward appearance, but also inward. People would say we are one in the same, but we are not.
---Steveng on 11/12/18


\\ When we died with Christ Romans 6, we then, as we speak experience resurrection life WITH CHRIST, being raised up TOGETHER WITH HIM. \\

How do we die with Christ, kathr?

Please elaborate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/12/18


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David, the last Adam, which is Jesus Christ is that life giving spirit. When we died with Christ Romans 6, we then, as we speak experience resurrection life WITH CHRIST, being raised up TOGETHER WITH HIM. Colossians 3:1-4 also reiterate this truth.

This is what and how one has eternal like today, now. We're just waiting for our new bodies fashioned like His. If I died today, I would immediately go home to the Lord. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Hebrews 12 also say RIGHT NOW, in heaven, not the third one, are the spirits of just men made perfect. They are waiting for their new bodies too.

Even Job believed in the resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/18


//those who are born of God, like Christ, our spirits will live...Eternally//- David.

Which scripture are you [mis] quoting?

So you also don't believe Jesus was resurrected? In your teaching, there was no need of Jesus being raised up because he is alive eternally in the spirit. Only his flesh died!

If you believe Jesus did not die completely and was resurrected, you are lost! You appear to have no idea what the real death and resurrection of Christ means.

I fear that you have been misled into pagan trinitarianism which negates the real death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have fallen into the teaching of the antichrist.
---David8318 on 11/12/18


2 Corinthians 12:2-4

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Paradise is the third heaven. Not to be confused with the 1st Heaven where the HOLY OF HOLIES is.
Jesus entered into the Holy of Holies through the blood of the everlasting covenant on the 3rd day.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/18


You don't actually think that "paradise" is the same as "heaven," do you, Steveng?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/11/18


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RichardC wrote: "Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, i say to you, Today you will be with me in paradise."

And where was Jesus that day and the following two days? It surely wasn't paradise.

How could Jesus be the SON of God and God at the same time?

Was Jesus a ventriloquist at the time of his baptism?

Did Jesus resurrect himself?

Who knows of Jesus' return? Not Jesus.

Who performed all Jesus' miracles when Jesus said he himself could not?

Jesus expressly told Mary, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." How can you interpret this any other way?
---Steveng on 11/11/18


David, many here including me have shown you. So many verses show Jesus is God, so many verses show the HOLY GHOST being HOLY is God and scripture also refers to the Holy Spirit / Ghost as a person, as well as God. I also gave you Isaiah 9:6. Jesus also said I AM the resurrection and life. I AM is Gods name. Jesus prayer in John 17...John 1:1-17, 1st John chapter 1.

The Jews killed Jesus because He claimed to be God, forgave sin and so on.

Your eyes are blinded because YOU have willfully chosen to keep them closed.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/18


\\I believe Cluny views the death of Christ in this manner. If not, I stand corrected.
---David on 11/11/18\\

Precisely, David.

This is what the pre-Reformation churches have always taught.

Other David, have you ever noticed that those who went around quoting Scripture to Jesus were Pharisees and Satan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/11/18


//the Trinity is hard for us humans to understand//- kathr4453.

If you think the trinity is hard to understand- how do you know it's the truth?

If you wanted to, I'm sure you could learn how electricity powers your tv and how transmitters or satelites work to bring tv shows from around the world to your living room. In fact, it's far easier to understand in comparison to the trinity dogma!

You say we must "believe by faith what God has said". Yes true, but show me where God has said he is a "trinity", or that "Jesus is God" or the "holy spirit is God"? Even "ONE GOD in three persons" will do!

Please show me!
---David8318 on 11/11/18


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The issue is whether God is eternal, not us.---David8318 on 11/10/18

David
The point I was trying to make, the word Eternal has the same meaning, whether the word is applied to God or to us.

Jesus, the Son of man, died on the cross. But Jesus, the Son of God, did not die. Like Christ, our bodies which are born of woman, will die. But with those who are born of God, like Christ, our spirits will live...Eternally.

I believe Cluny views the death of Christ in this manner. If not, I stand corrected.
---David on 11/11/18


//Sola scriptura is your rule, not mine//- Cluny.

So there we have it. Cluny is not guided by scripture. Cluny is just like atheists and evolutionists who do not allow scripture to guide their thinking. Like atheists, Cluny choses to allow a corrupt unorthodox church to have the final say on matters. When his pagan unorthodox church leaders are at odds with scripture, Cluny will follow his blind guides into that hole- Mt.15:14.

When Jesus was tempted 3 times by Satan just after his baptism in the wilderness, Jesus replied by quoting scripture, "It is written..."- Matt.4:1-11.

Cluny would be just like Satan in saying to Jesus, "Sola scriptura is your rule, not mine, and I don't have to play by it".
---David8318 on 11/11/18


47 times the scriptures refer to Christ as the Son of God.
85 times in the new testament Christ is referred to as the Son of man.
If we truly understand John chapter 1, we understand that Christ is God. Also we can see this in examining 1 John 5:7 of the KJV.

For Jesus to be our mediator he has to be both God and man.
1 Timothy 2:5. states that Christ is both and that is the only way he could be the perfect and acceptable sacrifice.
---trey on 11/10/18


Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said to him, Assuredly, i say to you, Today you will be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 5:7 - For we walk by faith, not by sight,
2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident, Yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
---RichardC on 11/10/18


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//How can we have Eternal life,...if we die?//- David.

Aren't you being a bit naive? The issue is whether God is eternal, not us. I believe God is Eternal in both directions- no beginning & no end.

The difficulty with the trinity dogma is seen by the theological mess Cluny finds himself in. Cluny spouts the unorthodox teaching that "Jesus is God incarnate" and "the Word was God" etc.

If Jesus is "God"- how do you square that with Jesus' death? According to trinitarians, this means Jesus didn't really die because he is the eternal "God" (Hab.1:12). And then who miraculously resurrected Jesus? Was it Jesus? Or was it God?

There is a simple scriptural answer!
---David8318 on 11/10/18


David, the Trinity is hard for us humans to understand. But one thing that needs to be cleared up is the Trinity is not three individual Gods, but ONE GOD in three persons. Since we don't have any other example to compare this to, we just need to believe by faith what God has said.

I personally don't understand how electricity makes my TV come alive and brings all kinds of shows from around the world. But by faith I just turn it on and there it is.

Someone explained this to me when I was a child. It's like Water, Ice and steam. All have the same substance, or chemical compound, but in different forms.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/18


\\
Cluny will deny it but the reality is Cluny does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, because he believes Jesus is "God incarnate", and therefore cannot die.\\

Repeating the same slander over and over does not make it truth.

Every time you tell this lie, you play bingo with your own soul and increase my own heavenly treasure.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/18


How can someone who is eternal "borrow" mortality? He is either eternal or he is not.---David8318

David
How can we have Eternal life,...if we die? And yet the Bible says some of us who die, will have Eternal life. In those, the body may die, but the spirit and soul live on.

Some trinitarians believe God and Jesus are one and the same, but most believe the trinity is a union of three individual divinities. God the Father, Jesus the Son and Gods Holy Spirit, working as one.
---David on 11/10/18


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//the Logos borrowed, as it were, something foreign to His nature as God, namely mortality//- Cluny.

So Cluny believes the Logos "borrowed" mortality in order to die.

From his understanding of John 1:1, Cluny believes the Logos is God.

So coming back to my original question-

Who was it that performed the miraculous resurrection of Jesus?

Please provide Bible chapter & verse in your answer please.
---David8318 on 11/10/18


\\Please give Bible chapter and verse please where it tells us "the Logos borrowed... as God, namely mortality"?\\

Sola scriptura is your rule, not mine, and I don't have to play by it.

This is simply what the Orthodox church teaches.

Either you accept sound doctrine, or your don't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/10/18


//In the Incarnation the Logos borrowed, as it were, something foreign to His nature as God, namely mortality//- Cluny [11/8/18]

Please give Bible chapter and verse please where it tells us "the Logos borrowed... as God, namely mortality"?

How can someone who is eternal "borrow" mortality? He is either eternal or he is not.

Please also provided Bible chapter and verse for your false trinitarian statement "Jesus IS God incarnate"?

Cluny will deny it but the reality is Cluny does not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, because he believes Jesus is "God incarnate", and therefore cannot die.

Jesus died and was resurrected by his eternal God and Father- Jehovah.
---David8318 on 11/9/18


\\ As John 1:1 tells us, the Word was with God. Father and son with each other. \\

The same verse says, "The Word WAS God."

Why did you leave this out?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/18


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\\scripture all through the NT state that God,the Holy Spirit and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead..\\

Please give BCV that says that Jesus raised Jesus from the dead, kathr.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/9/18


Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE. Jesus even says in the Gospels, that if anyone destroy this tabernacle, (He was referring to Himself,) HE woud raise it up in 3 days.

scripture all through the NT state that God,the Holy Spirit and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead... WHY, because they all are GOD.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/18


John 11:11 - These things he said, and after that he said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps, But I go that I may wake him.

( That I wake him )

! Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery go the godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Seen by the angels, preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in Glory,


Dictionary - Manifest : Become apparent though the appearance : demonstrate

{ no obj .} ( of a ghost or spirit ) appear : one deity manifested in the form of a bird .
---RichardC on 11/8/18


You are simply lying if you claim I said Jesus did not die.

I never said this, and I never believed it.

In the Incarnation the Logos borrowed, as it were, something foreign to His nature as God, namely mortality.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/8/18


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//and the Word was made flesh//- Cluny (misquoting John 1:14. Correct rendering shown).

The Word is Jesus Christ, the son of God. As John 1:1 tells us, the Word was with God. Father and son with each other.

Jesus was miraculously resurrected on the 3rd day. Why? Because Jesus was put to death. The simple question that confounds trinitarians is, Who resurrected Jesus?

Cluny still maintains Jesus is God incarnate, and as God, Cluny believes Jesus didnt die and therefore was not in need of a resurrection. This is clearly antichrist so we can rule out Cluny.

May be it was the God that Jesus was with who resurrected him? That makes more sense!
---David8318 on 11/8/18


//I never said that//- Cluny.

Cluny did. I quote Cluny as stating Jesus is "God incarnate".

Cluny believes Jesus is "God incarnate" who cannot die and therefore is not in need of a resurrection. This is the teaching of the antichrist.

//"And the Word [Who is God] WAS MADE FLESH."//- Cluny.

Note Cluny's trinitarian interpolation "[Who is God]". Thankfully, John 1:14 does not say this. John 1:1 tells us the Word was with God in the beginning, not that he is God.


John also tells us at verse 18, "No one has ever seen God" (NIV). Cluny says "Jesus IS God Incarnate". John says "no one has ever seen God". So who is lying?
---David8318 on 11/8/18


\\Cluny's perverse teaching says Jesus did not die because Jesus is "God incarnate"\\

I never said that.

As far as Jesus being God Incarnate, try "And the Word [Who is God] WAS MADE FLESH."

Try John 1.
---Cluny on 11/8/18


Which miracles are you referring to?

Elijah & Elisha performed miracles similar to those of Jesus (1 Kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37). But that is no proof that they were God! Performing miracles does not prove the individual is God.

Who performed the miraculous resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Cluny's perverse teaching says Jesus did not die because Jesus is "God incarnate" (chapter & verse please), and therefore "eternal" and thus did not die and was not resurrected.

Cluny's trinitarian "God incarnate" deceit is the epitome of the antichrist teaching as it denies the greatest miracle of all- Jehovah [YHWH, Deut.6:4] resurrecting his son Jesus! (Acts 2:24,32)
---David8318 on 11/8/18


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StevenG, even if you DON'T believe in Jesus being God, the miracles originated with God, Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit.
---Monk_Brendan on 11/7/18


"Who did the miracles originate from in the bible, God or Jesus?" Steveng "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. I can of mine own self do nothing. Jesus, on earth, could do nothing apart from the Father, just as we, his followers, can do nothing without Him.
---joseph on 11/7/18


Agreed they are one. The Trinity doctrine is true.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/6/18


Jesus IS God incarnate.

I know the worldly denominational "church" of Steveng doesn't believe this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/6/18


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Both.

They are One
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/6/18


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