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Do Beliefs Equal Salvation

Does what you believe determine your eternal salvation? If belief the determining factor in a person's salvation?

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 ---trey on 12/13/18
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=immature adolescent childish behaviour= kathr45666.

I'm just playing along with petulant kathr silly name changing antics.

Hebrews 1-2 says nothing about kathr46665 pagan trinity dogma.

Whenever I encounter trinitarians I show them Hebrews 2:9 which makes them do a kathr666 runner.

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels... because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."- Heb.2:9 (NIV).

If Jesus is "God", how can he "taste death"? God cannot die!! And who is the other God showing 'grace'?

Kathr45666 is not born again! A true born again Christian would not preach contradiction after contradiction.
---David8318 on 1/5/19

Also David8316 shows immature adolescent childish behavior and obvious anger flapping his wings in the wind by misrepresenting my name with the 666 ....totally childish. So unbecoming of anyone professing to hold the one and only truth. Notice how David8316 lost control when confronted with Hebrews. It happens all the time. Next time a JW come to your door, Mormons too....
Just start reading Hebrews 1-2
They go nuts and get nasty.
---kathr4453 on 1/3/19

Hebrews 2:16 for verily he took not on him the nature of angels but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Funny, if he was already an angel, this verse would make no sense. Verse 14 forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he himself took part of The same THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY him that had the power of death .
V 9 that he by the Grace of God should taste death for every man..
---kathr4453 on 1/3/19

//restricted from reading any outside source//- David.

No David you're lying.

Anyone can read my posts and see I quote liberally from the Bible and outside sources showing the trinity is from ancient pagan false religion. I cite trinitarian Siegfried Morenz who wrote in his book, Egyptian Religion that your trinity was patterned on pagan trinitarian religions 1000's of years before Jesus, and states: "In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with "Christian" theology".

//Your beating a dead horse here//

I'm not here for you or kathr666. I'm here for the 1000's who read these blogs and can form their own opinion as to who is teaching truth!
---David8318 on 1/2/19

//brainwashing accompanies cults as well//- kathr4453666.

If standing up for Bible truth and exposing the pagan trinity makes me a cult follower in kathr4666 eyes, then I'm all for that!

Kathr44666 has not been able to provide any scriptures in support of her pagan trinity. "Trinity" is not a Bible word and is a word that did not pass Jesus' lips, and is therefore the teaching of corrupt men and by definition is false doctrine.

Kathr666 cannot defend the indefensible trinity, so she screams hysterically like a banshee throws her toys out the pram and storms off.

You can't handle the truth!!
---David8318 on 1/1/19

//I AM is also GOD//- kathr6663.

No it is not!

"I existed before Abraham was born!"- Jo.8:58, The Bible- An American Translation, by Smith & Goodspeed (1935).

The context at John 8:58 shows the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming he existed before Abraham. Jesus told them the truth that he "was alive before Abraham was born".

What kathr4453 fails to realise is that "I AM" at Jo.8:58 is from the Greek "ego emi". Kathr4666 laughably tries to link this with "Jehovah" at Exodus 3:14 forgetting this was written in Hebrew where "ehyeh asher ehyeh" appears, which has nothing to do with what John wrote at Jo.8:58.
---David8318 on 1/1/19

JW say Jesus is Michael yet Hebrews 1-2 clearly tell us NO SO. ALSO ANGELS CANT DIE. And No angel took on the seed of Abraham.. So this argument that God can't die but an angel can is strange. They are created spirit beings. Jesus is the last MAN Adam. The first Adam was not an Angel either, so the Last Adam cannot be either. Also if redemption came through an angel, then why oh why isn't Michael also a propitiation for the sins of the fallen angels?

And if scripture absolutely says the Son of God is NOT an angel....then why and on what basis is their belief? Hebrews 1-2 debunk that thought altogether.

Also those IN CHRIST are not born again Angels ...aka sons of God Angels. It's a Horrible doctrine full of holes.
---kathr4453 on 1/1/19

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

To be IN CHRIST who is God is how we are born of GOD. Since Michael was created....and man was created, there is no way, even if Jesus was Michael that through Michael we could ever be BORN OF GOD.


Our being Born of God and raised up to sit together in Heavenly places IN CHRIST actually place us ABOVE THE ANGELS. The Church has a place HIGHER THAN THE ANGELS.

So again their doctrine is Satan offering them something that does not exist for those supposedly born of Michael. Yikes talk about anti_Christ to the core.
---kath4453 on 1/1/19

//You believe in Kingdom Now Theology//- kathr4453.

No JW's do not believe in "Kingdom Now Theology" or whatever kathr4453 calls it.

I've already shown where Jesus told us "the meek will inherit the Earth"- Matt.5:5.

Jesus also taught us to pray for "the Kingdom to come... also on Earth"- Matt.6:10. The earth is a part of God's eternal purpose!

The "sealed" and "born again" ones (Eph.1:13,14 & Jo.3:6,7) number 144,000 (Rev.7:4 & 14:1-3) and will live in heaven. The rest of faithful mankind, a "Great Multitude" (Rev.7:9) will "inherit the earth" when the "Kingdom comes" at Armageddon (Rev.7:14, 11:15 & 16:16)
---David8318 on 1/1/19

//So to be part of the Kingdom you have to be Born again//- Sambb7.

Jesus said, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom"- Luke 12:32 (KJV).

Are the ones who are given the Kingdom "little" because they are short!?

No!! Jesus is saying the "born again" ones are "little" in number (Rev.7:4, 14:1-3).

The heavenly group of 144,000 are "little" compared to the innumerable "Gt. Multitude" (Re.7:9) who survive the "Gt. Tribulation" and "inherit the earth" (Mt.5:5, Rev.7:14).

Only 144,000 are "born again" and "sealed". Not the "Great Multitude".
---David8318 on 1/1/19

Your beating a dead horse here. Watch Tower Society publications strongly discourage Witnesses from formulating doctrines and "private ideas" reached through independent Bible research.

Any Bible reference you might use to argue your point, would cause David to do independent Bible research. And this is strictly forbidden by the Church.

I recently viewed a program which showed many similarities between the JW and Scientology. It appears L Ron Hubbard patterned restrictions in his religion, on restrictions the JW is under.

Their truth can only come from literature written by their leaders. Both are restricted from reading any outside source. With the JW, This includes the Bible.
---David on 1/1/19

David8613, it appears you are very angry, and would rather quote and believe what some Egyptian said thousands of years ago, getting off track.

My conversation here is done with you. JW is a cult. But like is so obvious, brainwashing accompanies cults as well, where it is almost impossible to have a conversation.

I also take back JW being changed my thoughts here on that. I don't find your rants and ravings and insults loving one bit.

Good day David8316. Now watch me kick the dust off my sandles.
---kathr4453 on 1/1/19

//raised up together with Him a New Creature//- kathr4453.

Yes we know you can quote scripture out of context kathr4453. The point I am making is the contradiction you trinitarians fall into. GOD CANNOT DIE. Yet Jesus did die and was resurrected providing a guarantee of the resurrection to a "new creation".

You cannot be "born again" kathr4453 if you are preaching false contradictions and the false pagan trinity dogma which you have failed to show one scripture where "Jesus is God incarnate".

Nowhere in Hebrews 1 or 2 does your false teaching "God,aka the Word took on the seed of Abraham for the purpose of death". This is a blatant lie. GOD CANNOT DIE. Wake up kathr4453!
---David8318 on 12/31/18

//MY BIBLE states//- kathr4453.

Your trinitarian mis-translation falsely states 'the Word was God'. It's well documented that your trinity theology stems from ancient pagan Egypt & Babylon who worshipped false gods as trinities. Your false religion is not from the Bible, but from pagan Egypt and Babylon.

Jesus warned us Christians about you when he told us to "get out of her [Babylon the Great]"- Rev.18:1-4.

In his book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians... Three gods are combined and treated as a single being."

The truth will hurt kathr4453... your trinity theology is from Egyptian & Babylonian paganism.
---David8318 on 12/31/18

You believe Jesus is "God made flesh". But God is eternal and cannot die. If you believe Jesus is God, then you deny the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which is the teaching of the antichrist.

Did Almighty God die for our sins? Or did the Messiah die? Can't be both!
---David8318 on 12/31/18

David8316, you Ned to read Hebrews 1 and 2. God,aka the Word took on the seed of Abraham for the purpose of actually YOUR doctrine is anti_Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/18

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

David8316, I believe this....which shows in Genesis 1:1 that GOD CREATED the Heavens ans earth which include all creation, even the Angels . The WORD is God, just as MY BIBLE states, not only here but all through out scripture. I AM is also GOD, of which Jesus refers to Himself many times.

Just accept the fact that I am not JW nor will ever be. I don't believe the JW doctrine. Accept that and move on. I don't believe Mormonism either. Also don't Believe Church of Christ doctrine, or Kingdom Now theology. I also don't believe we are still under the Law of Moses.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/18

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//Jesus Christ is God made flesh, AKA Incarnation//- kathr4453

So show me Bible Chapter & Verse for your statement above? Otherwise THIS IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.

It's no good using John 1:1 as it's widely accepted you trinitarians mistranslate Jo.1:1 to suit your pagan trinity dogma. The Word was "with" God. The Word wasn't the God he was "with". God didn't become flesh... the Word became flesh! (Jo.1:14)

You believe Jesus is "God made flesh". But God is eternal and cannot die. If you believe Jesus is God, then you deny the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which is the teaching of the antichrist.

Did Almighty God die for our sins? Or did the Messiah die? Can't be both!
---David8318 on 12/31/18

No David Jew and Genitle are one group. ---Samuelbb7

The verses you quote are about salvation, for we are all under the Law of Christ, though many never put themselves under his Law.

But I wouldnt characterize Jew and Gentile being in the same group. If you do, how do you explain the 144,000 Jews in Revelation? They are clearly not Gentiles...the same group.
---David on 12/31/18

David8316, Paul is not hard to understand if you have been born again, , crucified with Christ and raised up together with Him a New Creature. If you don't have this as your foundation, then you will never clearly and completely understand Paul. Colossians is a most wonderful book on our standing IN CHRIST, but you have to be Born Again first, and have the mind of Christ to understand it. You will see, even if you think understand it that we are dead, and our life is hidden IN CHRIST with God. And Colossians 1:24-27 lay the foundation of Christ IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY, a higher calling than the hope of inheriting the earth.

Also you have to be born again to rightly divide the word of truth to know the difference.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/18

//through Christ you become a NEW CREATURE//- kathr4453.

Let's look at what Paul was saying.

"he [Jesus] died for all... who for their sakes died and rose again... Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature"- 2Cor.5:15-17 [ASV].

Clearly, to be "in Christ" and a "new creature", one must believe that Jesus "died for all and rose again".

However, if you are a follower of kathr4453's pagan trinity dogma which teaches "Jesus is God", then you don't believe Jesus died because Jesus is eternal. Neither do you believe Jesus "rose again" because he is God who cannot die.

Clearly then, kathr4453 is not a "new creature".
---David8318 on 12/31/18

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David8318, i know what you all believe, and I dont agree with your doctrine. I believe THE CHURCH, aka the Body of Christ has a higher calling and place in Heaven, not earth. This is the MYSTERY, the hope of GLORY.

You believe in Kingdom Now Theology where you will inherit the earth. Our Inheritance is being Joint Heirs with Christ.

Because you don't believe in the deity of Christ is why you don't understand the differences. Yes there will be those who will inherith the earth...however the Church will not. You will never see Peter or Paul say even once the Church inherits the earth.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/18

David. On what basis will a member live in the new Earth?

True there will be 144,000 special group. Around them is a bigger group.

Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude...

How come the rest of people have to sleep in their grave till the resurrection. But the your leaders say they go to heaven. How can the go to heaven without a body?

Don't they direct everything?

If Jesus is in charge then you would follow his words.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So to be part of the Kingdom you have to be Born again.

True only some of your doctrines are false.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/30/18

No David Jew and Genitle are one group.

Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The Church is Israel. Ephesians 2.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/30/18

//The 144000 in Revelation are the 12 tribes of Israel, not you//- kathr4453.

No, they are not the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Read Revelation 7:5-8 carefully and then compare the listing with the natural 12 tribes of Israel- Num.1:4-16.

I didn't say I was one of the 144,000.
---David8318 on 12/30/18

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//through Christ you become a NEW CREATURE who will not inherit the earth//- kathr4453

Kathr4453 teaches we will not inherit the Earth! Really?

Jesus Christ taught: "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth"- Matt.5:5 (NIV).

Jesus tells me I "will inherit the Earth".

Kathr4453 says I will not.

I wonder who I will believe!!

Seems kathr4453 has forgotten the basics of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. But there again, we all know kathr4453 teaches a false gospel.
---David8318 on 12/30/18

//they earn salvation to live in the New Earth// Sambb7.

No, JW's do not believe they earn salvation.

//Only 144,000 of them were ever born again//

Rev.7:4 tells us the ones "sealed" with holy spirit (Eph.1:13,14) who are "born again" (Jo.3:6,7) number "144,000" (also Rev.14:1-3).

//That group [144,000] is in charge of all their members//

No, the "144,000" are not in charge. Jesus Christ is.

//they oppose the Trinity//

Yes, because "trinity" is not in the Bible and is not a Bible teaching. God cannot die, but Jesus did die. Thus, Jesus is not God!

//But their doctrine is false//

You mean the trinity doctrine is false!
---David8318 on 12/30/18

Its hard to listen to someone who opposes your doctrine, with an open mind, but I hope you will try.

Paul is hard to understand, and that misunderstanding has hurt the Church. His epistles are difficult to understand because he was writing to churches, who had both Jew and Gentile believers.

The Jews were having a difficult time letting go of The Law of Moses, a Law which many generations had been under. Paul clarifies this in (Acts 13), especially in verses 38-39.

Paul says we are not under the Law in his Epistles, this teaching was directed towards the Jews, just as it was in (Acts 13). In (Romans 2: 5-15) Paul makies the distinction again, between Jew and Gentile in his teachings.
---David on 12/30/18

David8318, first, I know it's hard to hear the truth. But as loving as you all are, even like so many Hindu folks, totally awesome and loving, I think even Buddhists are loving, as well as many ATHIEST can be awesome loving humanitarians. Mother Theresa, another who told everyone that as long as they were a good Hindu, or Buddhist or whatever, that's all that mattered. WRONG.

If you all, including the Hundu, Buddhists, etc can't acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God made flesh, AKA Incarnation, and through Christ you become a NEW CREATURE who will not inherit the earth, but will inherit something so much are following a false religion.

The 144000 in Revelation are the 12 tribes of Israel, not you.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/18

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//They truly are loving people//- Kathr4453.

Thats very kind of you to say that about JWs. I know we differ on various issues but thoughtful expressions like yours go a long way in ensuring discussions here take place in the spirit of mutual respect. Im sure you are a very thoughtful person expressing Christian love in the best way you believe possible.

JWs take seriously Jesus command to have love among themselves (John 13:35) irrespective of national borders which is why JWs have never been involved in any wars and remain neutral on the basis of conscience. In fact, many of our brothers and sisters are today in some lands incarcerated because of their neutral stand and their refusal to take up arms or support national service.
---David8318 on 12/29/18

David, The difference between you and I is that I know the difference between the Old Covenant and the New, and the difference between Kingdom Now Theology and GRACE. In other words , it is by the Grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit our teacher who has led me and guided me into truth. Now if you want to call that doctrine...that's your call....I call it TRUTH , our FOUNDATION we are to build upon. And we are not to be tossed around by every wind of doctrine, Ephesians 4, but being grounded IN TRUTH will keep that from happening.

I see you all over the place....not sure what foundation you are building on. Mine is on Christ Crucified and my identification with Christ in death and resurrection life.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/18

I'm not sure who you want to gain knowledge, but I get mine from the Lord in person....through His Word.

I can clearly see you get some information from the Bible, but mostly, I hear your words being guided by a doctrine. What I mean by that, is, you only read those parts of the Bible which agree with your doctrine, but like many, you have become blind to those parts which disagree with your doctrine.

Its one of mans foibles, a foible we need to be aware of. Especially when it comes to salvation. Man made doctrines close the mind of those who follow them.

My goal is not to personally undermine those who follow these doctrines, but attempt to open their eyes to the rest of the Bible.
---David on 12/29/18

David, I didn't ask a question, but simply responded to your post, that seems to be derived from your own personal opinion without scriptural back up. I'm not sure who you want to gain knowledge, but I get mine from the Lord in person....through His Word.
---kath4453 on 12/28/18

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//John 1// Cluny.

John 1 has nothing to do with Cluny's false doctrine of the "incarnate God". You won't find the word "incarnate" anywhere in John 1, or anywhere else in the Bible.

God is eternal and cannot die. Jesus is therefore not God unless you want to believe the antichrist teaching that Jesus is "God incarnate" and didn't die.

//Sola scriptura//

I never said anything about this. Jesus said, "Sanctify them by the truth, your word is truth"- Jo.17:17. Jesus knew and taught that his Father's "word" was truth. Scripture is "inspired of God" (2Tim.3:16- KJV), therefore scripture is the rule God's people follow. Cluny follows traditions of unorthodox men.
---David8318 on 12/28/18

Its Interesting how you put questions out, in derogation, to align folks with things they never said. Ill be here waiting when your questions are not meant to demean, but to gain knowledge.
---David on 12/28/18

\\Cluny spouts error when he says Jesus was "God incarnate" which is no where to be found in scripture. \\

Try John 1.

Nowhere does the Bible say, "Sola scriptura," as you do. That's one reason that we Orthodox don't play by that rule.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/27/18

//even mistranslate the Bible//- Cluny.

That's rich coming from an individual who doesn't even believe what the Bible teaches. On a previous blog, Cluny told us using the scriptures, "is your rule, not mine, and I don't have to play by it" ['God Or Jesus Miracles' blog, 11/10/18].

Cluny does not "play by" scriptural rules. Cluny is in the same category as atheists and evolutionists who disregard scripture, set up their own belief system and basically believe what they want.

Cluny spouts error when he says Jesus was "God incarnate" which is no where to be found in scripture. Cluny preaches a false Jesus and a false Gospel.
---David8318 on 12/27/18

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J.W's teach that they earn salvation to live in the New Earth. Only a 144,000 of them were ever born again. That group is in charge of all their members. All the Members of that group are dying.

Also they oppose the Trinity. But I will not judge them. Only Jesus knows their hearts. But their doctrine is false.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/18

Oh dear.....the Word of God is not lost because Paul,and the Apostles are deceased. And no where did any teach sinless perfection in this life.

So David claims he doesn't sin, and if he sins even just a slip up like lose his temper etc, it proves he is not saved or going to heaven.

What a horrible way to live.

I have assurance of my salvation, and assurance that when I sin, I confess my sin and the Blood of Jesus washes away my sin. 1st John 1 Our NEW CREATURE made possible by our NEW BIRTH cannot sin, but today we still, as we are still in the flesh, can sin. One day when we are in Heaven there will be no more sin or death.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/18

David, question....

If you are now incapable of sin, why are you working for your salvation? Isn't being sinless enough? Yet you don't even have any security or assurance of your salvation. So you believe what? That God is going to weigh your good works on a scale and if the buzzer goes off, you've achieved the threshold and EARNED YOUR SALVATIONS, which you keep insisting you can't work for it.

Your beliefs are confusing. Because scripture teaches we have been created IN CHRIST to do the works HE has for us ....not our own. But only those IN CHRIST can access these works OF FAITH. But you don't believe the doctrine of being IN CHRIST and how we got there.

What exactly are you? It sounds so MORMON TO ME.
---kath4453 on 12/27/18

Many doctrines, and only one Truth.....equals many false teachers. And we all see those who oppose our beliefs, as false teachers. But who shall decide, how shall we know?

This answer has been lost over these many years, since the passing of Paul and the Lords Disciples. Did the Lord send them out merely with his words? No...they were sent with signs, signs that proved Jesus was the Son of God, and signs which proved they were his disciples.

The signs are still here. There is the distinct sign of salvation, written about in the Bible. One is the inability to sin (1 John 3:9-10).Two is the inability to hate others. If you still sin, and if hate others..ask God to show you the right path, while you still have time.
---David on 12/27/18

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Exactly Cluny....and all the love in the world they exhibit will not save them or bring salvation to anyone. Faith comes by hearing THE WORD OF GOD....not the word of cults or false teachers all wrapped up in sugar and spice and everything nice.

---kathr4453 on 12/27/18

JW's believe in an entity they call "jesus," but he is NOT the Jesus of the Bible Who is God incarnate.

They even mistranslate the Bible to make their point.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/26/18

I think some of the sweetest people are the JW's. They truly are loving people, however to say that love is more important to God than correct doctrine I call a falsehood, and a dangerous one. You are saying salvation is by good works of being lovely to others. This is very wrong. They too also believe and follow their Jesus.

We have warnings in scripture about false teachers. Please make that your priority of not following false teachers.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/18

David, I'm glad you know I don't hate you or anyone. And I believe this is why we are on here. To discuss and debate and question. One's doctrine should be thoroughly questioned, and those who post should stand behind what they post even unto death if they are so sure beyone a shadow of a doubt what they are saying. And sixth so much suicide these days, your post was dangerous. GOd will never assure anyone of a lovely death place IF ONE IS NOT FIRST SAVED...OSAS. To do otherwise would be dangerous. You went somewhere, but cannot prove where you went, or if it's truth.

Samuel, many say they are following Jesus like the Hari Krishna ( sp) however you spell it, FALSE CULT.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/18

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Good points Kathyr. But I believe and understand a incorrect theology will not cause a person to be lost. But hate will.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/26/18

Merry Christmas--kathr4453

Merry Christmas to you too, Kathryn.

I want you to understand something about me. I try my very best to use the Bible, to convince folks of a false teaching they may follow. I do not do this to make myself appear greater than them, but because I believe they may not be saved, if they continue down the wrong road.

I do not believe you hate me, per se. But that sometimes there are external things in our lives, which can fill us with hate, and those feelings are sometimes reflected onto others.

I mentioned Politics because they are one of those external sources. I have found this to be a problem in my own life, and this is why I rarely peer out into the world to see whats going on.
---David on 12/26/18

The Knowledge of the truth is most important to GOD. And as Ephesians 4 say, this knowledge keeps us from being tossed to and fro from every wind of doctrine that comes along, or following every Guru that comes along like say a Joseph Smith.

Let's let the WORD of God direct our path and be a light unto our feet. Pointing to the WORD OF TRUTH IS LOVE and don't anyone forget that.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. are called WHAT in Gods word?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, ...
---kathr4453 on 12/26/18

We may not be saved by knowledge, however we are anchored by the knowledge of the truth. Jesus is made unto us wisdom and the knowledge of Him. There are far to many CULTS people chase after, where there will be horrible consequences for those who follow after. We are to be rooted and grounded inTRUTH....because all this "peace love dove" new age stuff, IS NOT the Love of God flowing through us. It's counterfeit. Jesus, Paul Peter John , the Prophets before them etc DIED for speaking TRUTH, not compromising truth so they could give and receive touchy freely lovely feelings.

If you think otherwise then back it up with scripture.
---kath4453 on 12/26/18

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I don't believe we are saved by knowledge. To me it is the condition of the heart that shows a person is saved. Those who love GOD and love others may not have all correct doctrine. But they are following Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/25/18

Merry Christmas David. I suppose everything looks like hate when your pride won't allow questions. And falsely accusing someone of hate is hate.

My experience brought me right into the very loving arms and presence of God, and I CAME THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. It was the highest place, not the least. I hope one day you will have THAT experience.
---kathr4453 on 12/25/18

First the comment again was a condescending one, pretending to possess something you presume I have not.---kathr4453

Everything looks condescending when your filled with hate.
---David on 12/25/18

David, you seem to have a pattern of deflecting when asked serious questions. My questions are not driven by hate but by truth. You made a comment to me that you hope one day I can experience something you claim you have. First the comment again was a condescending one, pretending to possess something you presume I have not. The when questioned about it, you claim you stated it as a warning. I asked WHAT WARNING. Again, no answer.

Again you deflect in attacking me AGAIN and accusing me of this or that because you either won't or can't answer simple questions. I was waiting for the Trump attack again....
---kathr4453 on 12/24/18

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The things you extrapolate out of someones comments, simply to demean them, is amazing. My apologies, I should have learned by now. These tirades, these multiple postings you go on, display your hatred for me and others. Yet I am Foolish enough to engage you.

Some folks here may like to poke you with a stick, but my intention is civil conversation. If you hate someone, dont engage them. I hope one day you can feel the love for me that I feel for you.
---David on 12/24/18

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:13 And through much tribulation we have been translated out of this present evil world into the Kingdom of His dear Son.

My wish for David, and for all here who read these posts. This IS scriptural. We have been promised GLORY, the hope of GLORY, the very best. The Church is promised a place higher than the Angels. Hebrews 2

1Corinthians 2:9-13 is something all born again Christians experience. Nothing here about being taken to Paradise. Actually Gods very life and presence comes to live in us. I don't fear death.

Merry Christmas everyone.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/18

------ The Lord showed my the least place God had to offer, was better than the best we could hope for in the world. The presents of the Lord, is Paradise.
---David on 12/23/18

Why would the presence of the Lord, Paradise, be the LEAST place God had to offer? Where is the best place? Why would Jesus be in a place considered the least place?

David, no scripture backs up anything you are saying. In Hebrews 12, the HIGHEST PLACE where God is, the Church, the Angels is also where the spirits of Just men made perfect, where Jesus is also at the right hand of God. Some say the third heaven TODAY aka paradise is the highest..not the least. Rev 2:7 is not the LEAST place... God promises us the VERY BEST PLACE not the least.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/18

Today believers who have passed who are saved are asleep IN THE LORD. Being IN CHRIST David says is Paradise, but is not salvation. STRANGE doctrine here and very confusing. No unsaved person is IN CHRIST, or Paradise.

The more David talks the more I wonder just what his beliefs are.

All who are saved have tasted of the good things to come, and have been given a deposit of our inheritance or assurence we have that we KNOW we are IN CHRIST. Once In, we are then sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Many not saved have claimed near death experiences of seeing a light, and a feeling of peace etc, but have never acknowledged belief in the Gospel or experienced salvation first. Is this David's experience? I find disturbing.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/18

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David, you are not making any sense with your posts. You jump from here to there contradicting yourself over and over. First you WISH your experience on another as what ??. A Warning? What are you warning about.....not to fear death? Our Born Again experience is enough to confirm that, as every believer has experienced without claiming they were carried off to paradise. Yet you don't believe in OSAS. So much for your experience if you lose your salvation and one day WILL face a horrible death.
Then you say paradise is death, then say it's the presence of the Lord. The Lord is NOT DEAD. The unsaved are NOT in the presence of the Lord in the first place. Paradise aka the 3rd heaven is a part of HEAVEN where the unsaved do not go.
---kat453 on 12/23/18

My experience I keep very private simply because it is a private intimate matter. To do otherwise is to cause doubts in others lives who have no such experiences.---kathr4453

Not my intention at all. Many folks, believe the thief on the cross gained Eternal Life when he died, simply because he went to Paradise. This is a very dangerous belief, to pattern the teaching of salvation after the thief on the cross.

My intentions are meant as a warning, and as such, experiences sometimes need to be shared. For me, the experience caused me to lose my fear of death. The Lord showed my the least place God had to offer, was better than the best we could hope for in the world. The presents of the Lord, is Paradise.
---David on 12/23/18

No, mere mental assent does not merit salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Believing isn't all there is. Consider this also:

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

---jerry6593 on 12/23/18

Experiences don't prove salvation either. There have been many various experiences through out history , Edgar Casey, Nostradamus, some Nun way back when who claims she saw Jesus Crucifixion, where the Passion of Christ was based on, over embellishing where no scripture is available to back up , and on and on.

We see John in Revelation was shown things to come, however was already an apostle.

We also today see those being slain in the spirit say this or that, this group also claiming they can be translated here or there etc. People who say they saw or talked to Jesus in person etc. We need to make sure our experiences are of God, as even Satan can imitate.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/18

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David, not to diminish your experience, however Paul saw and heard things he said was unlawful to utter. He aslo said he knew a man....talking in third person, and I understand why he did that.

Dont underestimate others relationship with the Lord David, as if you experienced something others have not.

My experience I keep very private simply because it is a private intifmate matter. To do otherwise is to cause doubts in otheres lives who have no such experiences.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/18

I hope one day you can experience what Paul is referring too, as I have. Its very difficult to explain, but It causes you to look differently at death. You see death as a reward, it is not something you fear.

You feel as if Physically you are there, but are still here. Though you do not actually see God, you can feel his presents. The feeling is euphoric,...times a thousand. You lose all Consciousness of your life, not remembering you even existed on Earth while you are there.

When I returned, I begged God for death. Because I believe wherever I was, thats where we go after death.
---David on 12/22/18

David, Paul went to a place called paradise the 3rd heaven and didnt know if he was in the spirit or flesh, but was not death, since Paul didnt die or say he died and came back to life.

of coarse it was a place the deceased, AKA DEATH went, before the Holy of Holies opened up, where we now see in Hebrews 12, the spirits of JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, in the presence of God, the Church, the General assembly which may be the angels. OT saved were called THE JUST...the RIGHTEOUS also died physically but the soul doesn't die. I believe the JUST RIGHTEOUS in the OT were moved to the Highest heaven after Jesus ascention to heaven, where we now go directly who are saved. Heb 12 backs this up. Im only interested in what scripture backs up.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/18

David, the same place we see in Luke, called Abrahams Bosom, aka Paradise where the righteous dead were, and below where the unrighteous dead.---kathr4453

Personally I believe the place Jesus refers to as Paradise, was actually death. Because in death, we become absent from the body. I dont believe Jesus was telling the thief he was saved. But rather in death, he would exist in a place that was better than anything he had known while in the flesh.

You have forgotten a lot of things you learned in school/college.---Nicole_Lacey on 12/19/18

True, But do we need a teacher to reclaim that knowledge, or can we aquire the knowledge on our own?
---David on 12/21/18

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Steveng, anyone who knows scripture knows Abel' s sacrifice was a blood sacrifice, sacrifice was established right from the time Adam and Eve sinned. Cain's bloodLESS sacrifice was rejected by God. Even Job sacrificed for the sins of his sons. So no, Israel did not worship lambs goats etc in Egypt. They did however continue to practice BY FAITH sacrifice, as well as obey the blood sacrifice of putting blood over the door posts we know today as the PASSOVER. Jesus is our PASSOVER, as Paul states.

Where Nicole got the idea of worshipping animals is what is ODD.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/18

Steveng, your comment is odd.

I wrote: "They are teaching and brainwashing because they were in the custom of worshiping goats, lambs, sheep and bulls when they were in Egypt for 400 years."

You wrote: Cain and Abel made sacrifices to God, each of his own produce, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of Cain's. What was Abel's sacrifice?//

When was Abel and Cain in Egypt for 400 years?

How does your comment answer my comment?
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/20/18

David, the same place we see in Luke, called Abrahams Bosom, aka Paradise where the righteous dead were, and below where the unrighteous dead. Remember in Luke they looked UP and asked if the righteous souls above could send a message to warn their families. We need to remember there is no lake of fire as we speak, but one day there will be. Scripture refers to Hell, sheol hades etc as a place for the departed, as well as Paradise, Abraham's bosom, third heaven, also as a place for the departed before Jesus death and resurrection. This is where Jesus went for 3 days. No one was in Heaven before Jesus Blood cleansed and opened the way. Paul had an experience , and it was also referred to as the third heaven. 2 Cor 2:2-3, Luke 23:43...
---kathr4453 on 12/20/18

Nicole wrote: "They are teaching and brainwashing because they were in the custom of worshiping goats, lambs, sheep and bulls when they were in Egypt for 400 years."

Cain and Abel made sacrifices to God, each of his own produce, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of Cain's. What was Abel's sacrifice?
---Steveng on 12/20/18

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We see a long list in Hebrews 11 who were saved long before Jesus was resurrected. ---kathr4453

True, but the thief on the cross was promised to be in paradise, the day he was crucified. But Jesus, didnt ascend into heaven for many days after his resurrection. Where was this Paradise, since it could not have been in Heaven?

(Luke 23:43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
---David on 12/20/18

We see a long list in Hebrews 11 who were saved long before Jesus was resurrected. They were in a place after death called paradise or Abraham's bosom. After Jesus rose from the dead, He led captivity captive and now they are all in Heaven with God and Jesus, just as Hebrews 12 show. These are the spirits of JUST men made perfect. Their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead. The veil rent in the Temple also signified the way into the Holy of Holies was open where all those in Abrahams Bosom could now enter in.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/18

Hebrews 10 :1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.This is what is referenced "made perfect" in Hebrews 12. The Blood of Jesus Christ , brought that perfection only Jesus Christ can give.

TODAY we grow in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Those who understand James 1 know the testing of our faith is God ordained in every believers life to bring us to maturity that we may perfect and entire lacking nothing. Strengthened, established and settled. God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. This cannot be self inflicted.
---kath4453 on 12/19/18

Christ in us brings growth regardless of what a church or SS teach over and over.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/18

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The man who died next to Jesus didn't have a chance to grow...yet we see is saved the moment he put his faith in Jesus, acknowledging he was a sinner worthy of death, and acknowledged Jesus as Lord.---kathr4453

The thief on the cross was saved before Jesus was resurrected?
---David on 12/19/18

David: ...student continues to need the same lesson, taught again and again, are they learning the subject matter?//

You are not being fair.

Be honest with yourself. You have forgotten a lot of things you learned in school/college.

After college, I could tell you every Country and their capitals. Including their biggest cities. (before the fall of the Soviet Union) Name many famous rivers, seas, mountains, hill around the world.



Why? Because I didn't keep up with the knowledge given to me. All I had to do was continue to memorize and tune my knowledge when Countries collapsed and new ones formed.

BTW, The child ties his shoes EVERYDAY so he WON'T forget.

Backs my point exactly.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/19/18

As you know, a teacher teaches.
If the same lesson is taught over and over, and that student continues to need the same lesson, taught again and again, are they learning the subject matter? If they were, would there be a need to repeat the lesson?

When a child learns how to tie their shoes, they are taught repeatedly. But eventually they learn how to tie their shoes, and go on to be teachers, teaching others how to tie their shoes.

In many churches I have attended, they have the same students receiving the same lessons for many years, and still, they can not teach the lesson to others. Why??
---David on 12/19/18

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