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Baptism In The Epistles

I have seen people interpret the references to baptism in the Epistles to be some kind of ethereal non-baptism in un-water that gets conferred in an mystical manner.

Since Christ's last message at His Ascension was to baptize new disciples, how could this be done by man?

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 ---Cluny on 5/24/19
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Cluny:

You wrote: To be more precise, StrongAxe, they believe that sometimes, He is Father, sometimes He is Son, sometimes He is Holy Spirit.

No. Actually they believe he is ALWAYS simultaneously the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just as Trinitarians have their "mystery" of how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can all be God and yet not the same as each other, Oneness have their "mystery" of how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can all be one and the same, even when they're obviously not.
---StrongAxe on 6/14/19


\\Oneness Pentecostals make the mistake of believing Son and Father are one and the same. \\

To be more precise, StrongAxe, they believe that sometimes, He is Father, sometimes He is Son, sometimes He is Holy Spirit.

The big problem (among others) with this is that they have God living in time, which He does not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


Cluny:

Oneness Pentecostals make the mistake of believing Son and Father are one and the same. There are many places where the Son is shown as distinct from the Father, both in person and in attributes:
"The Lord said to My Lord, 'I will make your enemies a footstool'"
The Father sent the Spirit down to Jesus
"Behold my son, in whom I am well pleased"
"Why do you call me good? Only God is good."
"I know not the day and hour. Only the Father knows."
"Take this cup away from me".
---StrongAxe on 6/13/19


Steveng:

To touch upon a couple of errors in your latest post:

The Decalogue begins with, "I am the LORD your God."

John 1 says that the Word WAS God, and that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

You don't think this meant that Jesus is the perfect embodiment of everything in the Bible, do you?

If so, where did you get this faulty interpretation?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


Actually scripture says...THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH. Also says the WORD is God.

We need to also understand the Holy Ghost is also GOD, but the Holy Ghost was not made flesh.

Before Jesus incarnation was God,
the WORD and the Holy Ghost.

Also we see in 1 John 1 they testify they handled THE WORD OF LIFE, as in the Person of Jesus Christ , And Revelation says AND HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD, as in THE PERSON.

One God in three persons. The human mind may not be able to wrap it's mind around...and we are not asked to....but FAITH is not about human reasoning, but simply taking God at His Word. THE WORD IS GOD.
---kathr4453 on 6/13/19




cluny,

The word "lord" was/is a title to someone having authority. In the OT, they said, "Lord God." They also acknowledged kings and other people having authority as "Lord." In the NT, the word "Lord" is a title used for God and for Jesus, but they were two different entities. Scriptures also separated God and Jesus as God the Father and Jesus the Son. The son cannot be the father and the father cannot be the son. God's "word" became flesh not God became flesh. It's the same as an earthly father teaching his son his words and training the son in the way he should go. Jesus, and the christians, are heirs to the coming kingdom. God cannot be a heir to himself.
---Steveng on 6/12/19


Steveng, the contradidtion lies in your own words.

First, you said that nobody could understand things written 2000 years ago.

THEN you claimed to be able to understand them.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/11/19


Cluny, no contradiction. There are verses that are very explicit, like quotes, and other verse that are metaphors - and the meaning of words. The meaning of metaphors are completely different today than it was two thousand years ago. Be careful of what the vast majority of christians believe.

There are other verses that show Jesus in NOT God:

John 8:42

As for which Mary, read the entire chapter of John 20. It tells of which Mary. You always ask for BCV, but it seems you always take it out of context.
---Steveng on 6/11/19


Cluny:

Steveng said Mary. He didn't say which Mary. If you assume he implied Jesus meant his mother, you're reading something into his response that was not there.

Also, just because Thomas said something in a moment of excited utterance, that doesn't necessarily mean it is theologically true, just as with Elizabeth. Peter also told Jesus he didn't need to die, and we don't rely on THAT. What the apostles wrote to us in their offices as gospel and letter writers is considered infallible scripture, but what they are recorded as haven spoken in the Gospels is not (i.e. that people said this or that is gospel, but whether what they said is actually true is not.)
---StrongAxe on 6/8/19


\\Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord". She didn't say "the mother of THE Lord" or "the mother of God". There is a difference. "The Lord" and "My Lord" are not the same.\\

As I put it is how the passage has been understood for nearly 2000 years by the vast majority of Christians.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/8/19




steveng, if you don't believe that our Savior is God and man in a unique incarnation, then what are you doing on these Christian blogs?

And the Mary the Savior was speaking to was Mary MAGDALENE, not His holy Mother.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/7/19


Cluny:

Elizabeth said "the mother of my Lord". She didn't say "the mother of THE Lord" or "the mother of God". There is a difference. "The Lord" and "My Lord" are not the same.

Psalm 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus specifically referenced this dichotomy in Matthew 22:41-46 and Mark 12:35-37.

Also, even though Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Ghost", she wasn't speaking as a prophet, so we cannot use her words as a basis to establish doctrine. All Christians are supposed to be "filled with the Holy Ghost", yet despite this, Christians do NOT have a unified theology.
---StrongAxe on 6/8/19


Lets rationalize.

Men are imbued with the Holy Spirit by the word of god and the power of the son.

Therefore, the only way to be batptized is by man.

Hence the scriptures say in the Old Testament that the fire of the devil will burn once more within the lord and the lord will say begone and he will be begone. This vital teaching illuminates how the mental state of people can be alleviated once they leave the clutches of the devil and become batptizers of Christ.

The final teaching in Leviticus is that of redemption, one must never forget it.
---GeorgioArmani2 on 6/8/19


BTW, Steveng, you're not being consistent.

If we will never know the true meaning of things written6 2000 years ago, where did you get the idea that YOU know the true meaning of the Bible verses you referred to?

How do you explain your self-contradiction?

And if Jesus is not God, why did Thomas greet the Risen Savior as, "My Lord and my God"?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/8/19


Cluny,
We, in today's world, will never know the true meaning of what was written two thousand years ago.

Again:
Jesus is not God, but let's reason this out.

Why would Jesus clearly state to Mary "...I ascend unto my Father and your Father, my God and your God. And...

If Jesus was God, having the same mind, wouldn't he know of his return, but he doesn't. Matthew 24:35-37, Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7
---Steveng on 6/7/19


||.{Mother of God} not in scripture in any way shape or form....||

Luke 1:

"41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Note that Elizabeth was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say that. And Who else is the Lord but God Himself?

In any case, Theotokos\Mother of God is about Jesus.

Remember, kathr, not everybody believes like you do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/6/19


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CLuny, I don't care what you say it does or doesn't mean..it's not in scripture in any way shape or form....

Just deal with that Cluny....not everyone believes as you do. You don't need to soil your depends over it either. Go take your meds, take a nap....and chill.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/19


StrongAxe, you can't split Jesus. That's like saying "I am the mother of John, but not his manhood because I am not a man.

John being a man doesn't make his mother a man. But she is still the mother of the boy.

Did you all skip biology in high school?

//Inasmuch as Jesus was God, he had no mother, because he WAS before she was even born,..Mothers are ALWAYS born before their children.//

What does that have to do with Mary?

Only you all are claiming Mary is a god. We are not.

Mary gave BIRTH to God. Emmanuel.

Women who give birth to babies are called their mothers to the child that CAME out of their wombs. Simple.

Stop making it so complicated.

We are not splitting an atom.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/2/19


Before one is baptized, one must repent of their sins. Before one can repent of their sins, one must have knowledge that they are sinners. And that comes from the hearing of God's word. Babies and infants have no knowledge or understanding of God, Jesus, salvation, repenting, the gospel, sinning, etc.

Are christians to do all that Jesus did? Even to be baptised?

- - -

Jesus is not God, but let's reason this out.

Why would Jesus clearly state to Mary "...your Father and my Father, your God and my God.

If Jesus was God, having the same mind, he would know of his return, but he doesn't. Matthew 24:35-37, Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7
---Steveng on 6/2/19


Inasmuch as Jesus was God, he had no mother, because he WAS before she was even born, even before her ancestor Abraham, i.e. "Before Abraham was, I AM". Mothers are ALWAYS born before their children.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/19

Then please explain to me when scripture says Mary the mother of Jesus. While at it pls tell me why Jesus would have brothers( which you claim he does) if he had no Mother?
---Ruben on 6/2/19


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\\for.Mary to be Gods mother, Mary would have to exist before God. \\

I've already explained to you that is NOT what Mother of God/Theotokos means.

Did you understand it?

Did you even try?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/19


I absolutely believe Jesus is God. I believe Mary is the mother of Jesus the man. Like Strongaxe Said...for.Mary to be Gods mother, Mary would have to exist before God.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/19


Nicole_Lacey:

Inasmuch as Jesus was human, Mary was his mother, because he was born after she was.

Inasmuch as Jesus was God, he had no mother, because he WAS before she was even born, even before her ancestor Abraham, i.e. "Before Abraham was, I AM". Mothers are ALWAYS born before their children.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/19


Kathr, if you CAN'T SAY 'Mary mother of God' then you DON'T believe Jesus is God.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/1/19


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Romans 12:3 - For I say , Through the Grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think: But to think soberly, according as God hath death to every man the measure of faith, ( KJB )

Romans 12:3 - For by The Grace ( unmerited favor of God ) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think more highly than he ought ( not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance ) But to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him. (AMPC)

Ephesians 4:7 - But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it .
---RichardC on 5/31/19


kathr, if you knew anything at all about Orthodoxy, which you clearly do not, you would know we don't have statues, period.

"Theotokos/Mother of God" never meant she was the progenitrix of the Divinity.

It means that she gave birth to a Person Who is at once fully God and fully human.

What the Savior experienced in His human nature, He also experienced in His Divine nature, and vice versa.

The theological label for this is "communicatio idiomata."

If you truly want to understand this, please look up THEOTOKOS on the wiki that is Orthodox.

In the meantime, please explain to me how your posting relates to the issue of water baptism.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/19


Cluny, Mary was a virgin....no one is questioning that.....

But the title, Mother of God, is one you do share with the RCC.

Tell us, do you have statutes of Mary in your Churches?
---kathr4453 on 5/31/19


\\ Cluny, I'm tired of you playing stupid. Not gonna lower myself to your games. ...
---kathr4453 on 5/31/19\\



Et reliqua...

In other words, kathr, you have no idea of what you're talking about.

If you think the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception(which Orthodox do not believe) means that Mary likewise conceived virginally, you are wrong.

The traditional icon of her conception shows her parents embracing and kissing by a bed with an empty cradle in the corner.

Any questions?

BTW, the only Marian doctrine I discuss on the 'net i s that her Son is fully God and Man in one Person.

That's a new idea to many people here.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/19


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When believers are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13), we are baptized into the death of Christ.
His death, becomes our death (Rom 6:6). His resurrection, becomes ours (Rom 6:8). Without this baptism into the Lords death, we are yet in our sins.
This baptism is necessary for us to be saved.
If we follow the Lord, we must follow Him in his second baptism, as the Spirit baptizes us into Christs death to be saved by Gods grace.
Perhaps baptism has turned into such a divisive doctrine, because we have forgotten that the Lord was baptized twice, and the second is where we should pay attention.
The baptism of Christ unto death is what matters for us not his baptism into water.
---michael_e on 5/31/19


Cluny, I'm tired of you playing stupid. Not gonna lower myself to your games. These subjects have been discussed over and over here. No need to detail again.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/19


\\ Mary nonsense, Mary 's mother nonsense, just to name a couple thing s.\\

Please tell me what you mean by "Mary nonsense" and "Mary's mother nonsense".

Do you know yourself?

Also what are the gnostic beliefs of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/19


Samuel, no argument from me.
I believe God can reach and meet anyone who are reaching for Him, especially those with disabilities. I just don't believe in proxy salvation where the parents are bring an infant to be water baptized, tell them later in life they were saved by that water baptism.....or believe it's some sort of covering until they are old enough to show faith. That whole idea IS GNOSTICISM, saying they have some special secret knowledge of a salvation not in scripture. Much of RCC and Orthodox beliefs are actually Gnosticism seeing they believe many things not in scripture. Mary nonsense, Mary 's mother nonsense, just to name a couple thing s.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/19


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Dear Kathr. I worked with a United Pentecostal special needs child. He loved Jesus. I expect to see him in Heaven. But his understanding was not a lot.

We are saved by Grace through faith. Not in understanding.

Those who love GOD and love others will be in heaven. Those who don't no matter their claims. Will not be there.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/30/19


\\ Therefore our understanding of what God is saying is required.\\

Please quote the verse that says this.

It's still gnosticism you're spouting.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/30/19


The more I think about Cluny's comment re: Gnosticism, the more I shake my head in disbelief of Cluny's understanding of Christianity. The two are diabolically opposed to one another. We are not saved by knowledge, but by FAITH , meaning we BELIEVE in the promises of God who has shown us those promises in Scripture.

A baby..infant cannot exhibit faith, or belief because a baby infant does not understand ...because it's an infant with an undeveloped mind ( not to be confused with brain). And A baby does not know right from wrong.....Babies are incapable of repentance....

So hearing and believing the Gospel does not require some esoteric acid trip to wherever hearing whatever that only a select few reach that height. YIKES YIKES
---kathr4453 on 5/30/19


kathr, what you're saying is the notion that God cannot work in our lives unless we understand.

That's the heresy of gnosticism.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/19


Sorry Cluny, but that is NOT the heresy of Gnosticism. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Therefore our understanding of what God is saying is required. Understanding the WORD of God is not Gnosticism. YIKES! Do you think people here are stupid? Gnosticism is a group of ancient heresies stressing escape from this worked through the acquisition of esoteric knowledge...given only to a select few .

NO SCRIPTURE teaches such things concerning the Gospel of Salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/19


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\\Unless, of course, faith isn't something WE do at all, but something God imposes upon us. Wouldn't that be the heresy of Calvinism?\\

Faith is both a gift from God and a relationship in which He takes the initiative.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/30/19


Paul says there is only one baptism. Common sense tells us it must be the one baptism Paul teaches. Found in 1 Cor 12:13 and Rom 6:3.
It is dry and performed by the Spirit baptizing you into Christ. This is the one baptism that saves you. It is not water baptism of any kind.
If you can see this then you have succeeded at making the leap of scriptural understanding that the information Jesus gave to Paul for the Church supersedes the information given to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, for the nation of Israel.
If you don't see this then you are stuck trying to reconcile the multiple baptisms taught in the Lords earthly ministry with the single baptism in Eph 4:5.
---michael_e on 5/29/19


Cluny:

You wrote: kathr, what you're saying is the notion that God cannot work in our lives unless we understand. That's the heresy of gnosticism.

Yet isn't faith something God requires of US? Infants can't believe in someone if they've never heard of them or even thought of them, because they haven't yet even learned how to understand words yet because they were just born yesterday.

Unless, of course, faith isn't something WE do at all, but something God imposes upon us. Wouldn't that be the heresy of Calvinism?
---StrongAxe on 5/29/19


\\And if faith required baptism as a work.....babies can't show faith in the first place to decide their baptism is the required work. \\

kathr, what you're saying is the notion that God cannot work in our lives unless we understand.

That's the heresy of gnosticism.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/19


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Yes Cluny, there are many CULTS who promise salvation another way then what is in Scripture, that Michael_e explained perfectly. I can't add upon his words, as I have already stated the same thing.

You simply promote a false gospel.....and have deceived many into thinking they CAN work their way to heaven by following your FALSE FORMULA.

So...are we done here Cluny? Even John the Baptist's baptism required repentance......yours..no....as a new born has no ability to repent. And there is no such thing as a PROXY salvation. Again ITS A CULT. And if faith required baptism as a work.....babies can't show faith in the first place to decide their baptism is the required work.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/19


\\ I'm sure the Orthodox or RCC believe their baptism are saving people, but even John the Baptist never made such a claim. \\

That's because what John did was NOT Christian baptism.

What we do is CHRIST'S baptism.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/19


\\ No one gets baptized in hopes of salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/19
\\

I know plenty who have, kathr.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/19


Baptism into Christ is identification with Christ. We become crucified with Christ, never touching water (Gal 2:20).
Water baptism never symbolized death, but cleansing, as in (Mark 1:4). In the present dispensation of grace, our sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ through his death.
There's only one baptism Paul says is necessary, excluding water or a man to perform it. It's performed by God when we believe the gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ (Eph 4:5).
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:12
If you think baptism must always include water, then you are a little wet behind the ears.
---michael_e on 5/27/19


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James nowhere says baptism is a work completing faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen . No one gets baptized in hopes of salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/19


But do you baptize yourself or merely receive it at the hands of another?
---Cluny


Cluny
Good question
As I understand it, it doesnt seem to matter. If its a requirement...they consider it a work.

However, works DEMONSTRATE our faith.---StrongAxe

(James 2:22) See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works faith was made perfect

StrongAxe
If we are saved by faith, and Works perfect the faith by which we are saved, can we be saved without Works?
---David on 5/27/19


Even the thought of receiving baptism at the hands of another is giving man credit for salvation. I'm sure the Orthodox or RCC believe their baptism are saving people, but even John the Baptist never made such a claim. YIKES!

I agree with Strongaxe. Just as Circumcision didn't save Abraham, but Abraham received the sign of Circumcision out of obedience of an open testimony that he was righteous. And NO WHERE in Hebrews 11 is baptism required for salvation.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/19


David:

If you read James, you will see that he clarifies the discrepancy between faith and works. Yes, we are saved by faith, and not by works. However, works DEMONSTRATE our faith. If we have faith, that faith is usually manifested in works. "By their fruits you will know them". If we have the opportunity to do works, but we don't do them, it calls into question whether we have the faith in the first place.

For example, the thief on the cross believed, but of course he didn't get baptized, because he was not in a position to do so.

We don't get baptized because it's some kind of magical formula that saves us. Rather, we do it because Jesus asked it of us, and if we love him, we will follow his commands.
---StrongAxe on 5/26/19


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Quite right, David.

On the other hand, baptism would be a work if you baptized yourself.

But do you baptize yourself or merely receive it at the hands of another?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/26/19


David, you described the confusion well.

John 15:1-2...Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Matthew 7:15-20
V16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

We can't know anyone by their thoughts. Even Jesus said people can say the right things but be wrong in their actions Matthew 23:1-3

V3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their WORKS, for they say, and do not do.

One must do works to back up their beliefs.

Starting with Baptism, allowing the Holy Spirit to Work in us first.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/26/19


Let's be clear that water baptism does not save.....JESUS SAVES, THROUGH HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION LIFE.

The man who was next to Jesus being crucified was not baptized...not even John's baptism. Yet that day he was with Jesus in Paradise.

Grace does not teach a works salvation. But OBEDIENCE Of FAITH...THE LAW OF FAITH does require our part.

Many have believed but, May never have been water baptized. And NO SCRIPTURE states if you believe but were never water baptized you are not saved. Even Romans 10: 9-10 say NOTHING about water baptism being a requirement for salvation.

Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he was circumcised. Romans 4 concept still applies.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/19


Cluny
If you have to be physically baptized, it throws water onto the No Works doctrines. So in order to make baptism fit into these doctrines, these teachers had to create the baptism you have described.

You see, Salvation under their terms must require nothing from the believer. Somehow they are saved without doing anything, but non believers, who also dont do anything to be saved, are lost.

Being a believer seems to be the key to salvation. But then again...if you must be a believer to be saved, doesnt that make being a believer, a requirement?
---David on 5/26/19


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