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Baptism Spiritual Effects

A couple of more questions about baptism.

1.What are the spiritual effects of water baptism? What are its fruits?

2. Where does the Bible say that water baptism is a public testimony you make to others?

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Baptism Bible Quiz
 ---Cluny on 5/29/19
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1 John 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Here is what David is totally missing. Here John, not Paul, also says Gods love towards sinners was so we could LIVE THROUGH HIM. Only THROUGH HIM...not for Him. The only way one can live THROUGH CHRIST is for you to be IN CHRIST and Christ IN YOU. Romans 6-8, Colossians 1:24-27. Galatians 2:20-21. And GRACE IS NOT OF WORKS Ephesians 2:8.

Also Paul states that Gods Grace is given to us through our WEAKNESSES, 2 Cor 12:9, not our strengths. No scripture states Gods Grace is given only to those who keep the law.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/19


God made you to lavish His love upon you. You don't have to make Him like you.---Cluny

Many believe as you do, because of (John 3:16), but it does not say God loves everyone...it says God so loved the World, his creation ,which he is trying to save through Jesus Christ. Jesus, Daniel and Paul, say what I say. Where is it taught, God loves everyone?

(Daniel 9:4) I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed: Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments,...

(John 14:21) Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
---David on 6/30/19


David, in John 15 Jesus said ABIDE IN ME AND I IN YOU AS YE CAN DO NOTHING OF YOURSELVES. Now 15:10 shows this same verse You love but IN CONTEXT shows it can only be done with you IN CHRIST AND CHRIST IN YOU.

I keep telling you ALL THE VERSES I HAVE SHOWN YOU support John Chaper 15 Jesus prayed about in John 17, more fully revealed in Pauls epistles.

Colossians 1:24-27.....CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY. , Gal 2:20-21 CHRIST IN YOU, PHIL 3 The Righteousness of CHRIST IN YOU.

David HOW is Christ IN YOU apart from showing How in Romans 6? Have YOU found another way apart from the CROSS?
---kathr4453 on 6/30/19


The mystery KEPT SECRET but now revealed, is that Jesus is bringing many sons INTO GLORY. GLORY HERE is a key word. Heb 2, Colossians 1:24-27, John 17. Yes these sons are joint heirs with Christ...Galatians. Something NEVER promised to earthly Israel. Those who have a HIGHER CALLING...the HIGHEST CALLING OF ALL.

It's possible David is not part of this company of sons, who are joint heirs, who will be GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM. This CALLING is by GRACE ALONE. This is the body of Christ...a NEW CREATURE! not Jew, not Gentile, but something totally NEW.

We came THROUGH THE CROSS. We DIED WITH CHRISTand now our NEW MAN is created in HIS righteousness and Holiness. HE IS OUR VERY LIFE. All praise and Glory go to HIM.
---kat453 on 6/30/19


Cluny, that's good to know.
---JS1234 on 6/30/19




God made you to lavish His love upon you.

You don't have to make Him like you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/19


It would help me if somebody would give me a list of the good works I need to perform in order to get God to like me.
---JS1234 on 6/29/19


Good works do not EARN SALVATION.---kathr4453

I agree.
But according to Jesus, Good Works are required to receive Grace from God.
(John 14:21) Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

Good works brings you the favor of God, and those in his favor, his Grace, are those he saves. Its not something you do once...or twice, but something you do continuously, until you are saved. As Paul taught below..

Romans 2: 6-7) God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
---David on 6/29/19


Acts 20:24 show The Gospel of the Grace of God was in fact given to Paul by Jesus Christ AFTER Jesus rose from the dead. This Gospel of the Grace of God is in Ephesians 2 as well as ALL OF GALATIANS, ALL OF COLOSSIANS, PHILIPPIANS.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/19


David again Ephesians 2 show you are wrong. Good works do not EARN SALVATION. Our works IN CHRIST show we are saved first. John 3:16 says nothing about earning ETERNAL LIFE through works.

Also AFTER we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. And the only works that matter Today (Gal 2 20-21) to the Lord are those done in His power as our old sin Adam 1 is nothing but filthy rags, not to overlook as well DEAD.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/19




David is putting THEORY over scripture especially Ephesians 2: 6-10.---kathr4453 on 6/28/19

And this is the heart of our argument, Kathryn.
.....Your doctrine makes the Gospel of Jesus Christ a mere Theory. Whereas, Paul and I declare it to be the foundation of Salvation.

You believed your doctrine was founded on the Lords Gospel,...but in taking up my challenge,...you have discovered it doesnt. And it is this fact which makes you angry.

Not only does your doctrine your not support the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it opposes it. Now if the Gospel of Christ is the Truth, and your doctrine opposes the Truth...wouldnt that make your doctrine a lie?
---David on 6/29/19


Cluny, YOU Quote where you DID REGARD Ephesians 2:6-10 as Truth.

Looks like you're on your nasty war path again, jumping in and adding NOTHING but your nastiness to the conversation. Looks like you need a depends change and your meds to calm you down.

Ephesians 2:6-10 is not a THEORY. So with that Cluny, COME OUT AND SAY JUST THAT...SAY " David, Ephesians 2:6-10 shows Paul did not teach a WORKS SALVATION". Cluny, I guarantee here you will not do that. Prove me wrong...or else you are the LIAR here. ....OR....THE EASTERN ORTHODOX disregard salvation by GRACE ALONE. We've all been here before.....EO, much like the RCC believe in a WORKS SALVATION, so YES, you do not regard Ephesias 2:6-10 as ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/19


Scripture is very clear about SALVATION! It tells us exactly how to be saved. Romans 1-2 speak about righteous living vs godless living, BUT the word SAVED is not used. Somehow many confuse the two. When verses specifically talk about SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE etc, it's THE FIRST STEP,...and what follows after we are saved is RIGHTEOUS LIVING. Just as Ephesians 2:6-10 specifically verse 10 CLEARLY SHOW our works IN CHRIST , NOT OUR OWN WORKS, IT ALSO SHOWS righteous living come AFTER WE ARE SAVED, NOT IN ORDER TO GET SAVED. There's no THEORY HERE, and any suggestion that it is is HERESY, or ignorance. This IS Paul,building on Jesus words.
---kath453 on 6/29/19


\\ Seeing you did not regard Ephesians 2:6-10 as truth \\

Liar.

Quote where I said this, kathr.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/19


Cluny, you still haven't shown in scripture where the word TRINITY is.

Also your input clearly demonstrate you have no clue what the conversation is about.

David is putting THEORY over scripture especially Ephesians 2: 6-10. Seeing you did not regard Ephesians 2:6-10 as truth and not a theory shows your own ignorance or maybe you are just a coward. Your not defending me...in case you were confused.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/19


The mystery was kept secret until Jesus rose from the dead, the Gospel of the Grace of God Acts 20:24 Paul received of JESUS.
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
---kathr4453 on 6/28/19


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\\And most of all, STOP ADDING your ignorant comments to what you THINK the Gospel of Grace is or isn't .\\

Try taking your own advice, kathr.

And let's all put our faith in Jesus Himself and not a theory about how He saves us.

Believe it or not, there IS a difference.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/19


David, I Will defend the Gospel of the Grace of God through Jesus Christ until my dying breath. I'm not arguing with you, but defending the doctrine of the CROSS. Now your ego may see that as arguing with you, but hardly.

We simply have different beliefs. I reject yours. Now just accept that fact and move on. And most of all, STOP ADDING your ignorant comments to what you THINK the Gospel of Grace is or isn't . You have been WRONG over and over purposely misrepresenting for the purpose of arguing. Just STOP.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/19


\\Since you have been warned, you will be without excuse.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/19\\

Who appointed you to be God's warner, kathr?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/19


David, please show where in Romans 6-8 Ephesians 2 Phil 3 Colossians 2-3, Hebrews 10, Romans 10, Galatians 1-6 where GRACE encourages disobedience? You show you are totally ignorant of Grace, making FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE GRACE OF GOD, WHICH IS INSULTING THE SPIRIT OF GRACE, Hebrews 10, you will find yourself on the WRATH SIDE OF GOD.

Since you have been warned, you will be without excuse.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/19


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David, one day i hope you stop arguing with me and accept the Gospel of the Grace of God.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/19


Kathryn
I hope one day you stop arguing with me and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
---David on 6/28/19


David, one day i hope you stop arguing with me and accept the Gospel of the Grace of God.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/19


JESUS PRAYER IN john 17 OPENS the door to the NT CONCERNING AFTER THE CROSS.---kathr4453 on 6/27/19

Kathryn
Please explain where the Lord taught Grace without works, and Salvation through disobedience in (John 17).
---David on 6/28/19


The Gospel of Grace

Ephesians 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
---kath4453 on 6/28/19


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David, your stuck in Romans 1_2, and refuse to read past those two chapters Paul explains BEFORE THE CROSS, just as you reject Galatians , Hebrews etc concerning AFTER THE CROSS
JESUS PRAYER IN john 17 OPENS the door to the NT CONCERNING AFTER THE CROSS.

You David are in the wrong
---kathr4453 on 6/27/19


TODAY we are asked to OBEY THE GOSPEL --kathr4453 on 6/26/19

But you do not. I have shown you where Paul taught a Works salvation message in ((Romans 2:5-10). Can you show us in the Gospel, where Jesus taught a no Works salvation message?

Kathryn, I know I make you crazy with what you believe to be my false doctrine, but everything I say is supported by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Paul founded his teachings on the Lords Gospel, (Romans 1:16). And you claim your doctrine is founded on Pauls, and yet I can not find your doctrine anywhere in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope one day you will stop arguing with me, and accept this fact.
---David on 6/27/19


By Faith Noah built an ark.....but God first told him to build the ARK, the exact dimentions, and said he was going to flood the earth. Noah had no clue what a flood was much less a rain storm NEVER seen or experienced on earth before that time. His faith was in evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN, and the whole world except his immediate family laughed in his face.

Yet Noah OBEYED Gods voice...YET no law says to build an Ark.

Hebrews 11 teaches EXACTLY what OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is about...

TODAY we are asked to OBEY THE GOSPEL that Jesus died on a cross for our sin and to submit to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ROMANS 10 will give you what YOU are to do. Romans 10:9-10 specifically.
---kathr4453 on 6/26/19


\\
kathr, there is no difference between faith and obedience. \\

Perhaps I should have said "no conflict between...", kathr and mike.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/19


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There's " obedience of faith" seen in Romans 16:25-27, which is not obedience to the law. The LAW is not of faith..clearly stated in Romans 4:14, Galatians 3:12 , and I'll find more if you want.

So Cluny, not exactly sure what you were trying to say...that if OT Israel kept the law....it was accounted as faith? Not according to Paul in Philippians 3. Look, I don't know what the Eastern Orthodox has done with these verses, but the verses speak for themselves.

Even James uses obedience of faith but shows no example of obedience to any law. It was Faith in what God asked them to do. Rahab actually LIED, because she believed THEIR REPORT....giving God GLORY showing she believed in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
---kathr4453 on 6/26/19


Interestingly enough, Rahab didn't have to confess all her sins, convert to Judeasm, get baptized etc....yet we see James uses her as an example of faith.
---kat453 on 6/26/19


kathr, there is no difference between faith and obedience.

They complement and amplify each other.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/19


David, man thinking he has to work for his salvation is out of PRIDE. It's a GIFT David, and no gift requires anything but RECEIVING, AND THANKING.

Our faith is in Christ, not faith in doing the law. If all one had to do was obey the law, there would be no need for Jesus Christ....AND no LAW whatsoever promised to make you a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS. No LAW gave anyone a NEW BIRTH OUT OF DEATH. The law no matter what law you claim HAS NO POWER.....it's the POWER OF THE CROSS....which you deny. 1Cor 1:18

My faith is in Jesus Christ who gave me something that I could not in my wildest imagination acquire on my own, no matter how hard I tried WHICH IS HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, not my own. See Pauls words again in Philippians 3.
---kathr4453 on 6/26/19


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Why else does one put their faith in Jesus??? FOR WEALTH, HEALTH, PROSPERITY??? NO NO NO. ---kathr4453

How does one put their faith in Jesus?
I say it it by doing what he taught us to do. You claim this is following the Law, where I call it showing I have faith in him.....as my savior.

Jesus Christ died so that we can live through his sacrifice for us. Confession of sin is a display of our faith in him, as our sacrifice. It is sad to think, many folks like you, believe forgiveness of sin and salvation are yours just for the asking and not by doing. (Matthew 7:24)

Make the Lords Gospel your foundation, and try building on that, and maybe God will choose to save you too.
---David on 6/26/19


I believe it's a no brainer that those who put their faith in Jesus death and resurrection life for the forgivness of SIN, would certainly have to admit they are a sinner in need of forgivness. Why else does one put their faith in Jesus??? FOR WEALTH, HEALTH, PROSPERITY??? NO NO NO.

David, actually your statement is redundant. We BELIEVE through Jesus sacrifice, that He died for our SIN. Any other faith in Him is a false profession of faith and a false religion.

And if your still under the LAW you are still a slave to sin.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/19


Paul does not say "into water", but "into His death" which came before His burial.......Possibly, in His death, we are living in His love which made Him "a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) ---Bill on 6/24/19

Sweet smelling aroma is a reference to Christs sacrifice, as used in (Genesis 8:21). We are baptized into his death, his sacrifice.

A Sacrifice is made for the forgiveness of sin. Many seem to believe with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Jesus did it all,..It is finished.

Jesus gave us a once, and for all, sacrifice, but the confession of sin, is our responsibility. No confession...No forgiveness. No forgiveness...No light by which to be guided through the darkness.
---David on 6/25/19


What Paul is talking about in ALL OF GALATIANS, showing those still under the law, are the ones who are still the servants of sin. Because the Law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ...now revealing the kind of FAITH that brings us into SONSHIP. You may want to read all of Galatains 3 and ALL of Galatians 4.

So we have 2 foundations here, the LAW or GRACE.....shown in contrast through out the NT. 2 Cor 3, Hebrews 2, Hebrews 10-13, Galatians 1-6 the pinnacle point in Galatians 2:20-21. Colossians 2-3, ***Philippians 3 *** Just to name a few places.

It's not hard to understand, if you have been saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Those who have not will never understand it.They still have a vail over their eyes. 2 Cor 3.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/19


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Bill, I agree. David, the foundation to becoming a son is the foundation of Romans 6....our old Adam dead, which was a servant to sin, and being raised up together with Him A NEW CREATURES, is how we become a son THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

The foundation is Christ Crucified and risen. Our foundation is dying with Christ...where we die to sin, aka our old Adam which is nothing but sin, and our NEW MAN now is created in Righteousness....HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

My foundation David is on Jesus Finished works, Not on my works.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/19


Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.---kath453 on 6/13/19

Kathryn
Paul does say what you said, but...since you dont put the proper foundation under it, you lose the context of its meaning. Here is the foundation.

(John 8:34-35) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily I say unto you, whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever, but the Son abideth ever

The servant Paul is talking about in (Galatians) is the servant of sin. Not the servant of righteousness. Without the Lords Foundational teachings, we can create all kinds of doctrines...a mistake many have made.
---David on 6/24/19


Jesus says >

"'Therefore, whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father in heaven.'" (Matthew 10:32)

If we use baptism to confess Jesus before men, He will confess us before our Heavenly Father.

We need how we "were baptized into His death" > Romans 6:3. Paul does not say "into water", but "into His death" which came before His burial. So, I see this does not mean burial into water, since burial came after His death.

Possibly, in His death, we are living in His love which made Him "a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) to our Father while also having hope for any and all people > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).
---Bill on 6/24/19


David, let me add delusional...as you never taught me this fact. You accused me without proof, I rebuked your false accusations.... Therefore I TAUGHT YOU ...HOPEFULLY TO STOP LYING AND ACCUSING.

The very FACT that we are created IN CHRIST JESUS unto good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in.....should have been enough for even a simple minded person to comprehend.
---kathr4453 on 6/14/19


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No scripture teaches once we become sons that we no longer serve the Lord.---kathr4453

Kathryn
I am glad I was able to teach you this fact. You are most welcome.
---David on 6/14/19


David, Since you want to still be under the law, Gal 4, still having a vail over your eyes..2 Cor 3, trying to establish your own righteousness Romans 10, you are a Pharisee as we see in scripture who murders and sets out intentionally to murder those who's faith is in Jesus Christ who profess HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Scripture is steeped with your kind...and your behavior and words expose you.

My conversation is over with You David. You twist, falsely accuse, make up things to accuse....and it's getting sickening. I thought the lesser was to call you stupid.....the fact is...you are EVIL. Much worse. You are clearly an enemy of the CROSS. Go ahead and throw a tantrum...it's expected of you.
---kathr4453 on 6/14/19


Galatians 4:7
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

No scripture teaches once we become sons that we no longer serve the Lord.

Did you not read the verses I posted? Do you not know it has to do with our POSITION and not our activity? Did Paul who claimed to be a son not also say he serves the Lord. Can't you read the text to get it's understanding rather then make up garbage?
---kathr4453 on 6/13/19


David, I'll bet even posting rather than asking you to look up, you still will willfully refuse to either read or believe. You either believe it or not. I'm not going to force feed you..and then watch you spit it out like a rebellious child.


Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

That's me defined above David. I don't apologize for it either.
---kath453 on 6/13/19


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To become a son/ daughter does not say we no longer serve the Lord. HOW UTTERLY STUPID YOUR COMMENT IS.-Kathr

Excuse me..that utterly stupid comment did not come from me, it came from you. Read your own words below.I was merely trying to make sense of your mental giantess.

Since I've received Jesus Christ, I am a SON and no longer a servant.---kathr4453 on 6/11/19
---David on 6/13/19


You were once a follower of Jesus Christ, but then God made you a Son, an heir to his throne. And as an heir, God is no longer your master. Will you also sit at the right hand of God?
---David on 6/12/19


David, when you FIRST acknowledge your comment here is your own foolish thinking not in scripture and apologize for it.....maybe we'll talk. But every time I catch you in a lie or false ststement....you just snake around it with another approach. Not buying it. To become a son/ daughter does not say we no longer serve the Lord. HOW UTTERLY STUPID YOUR COMMENT IS. it's really hard for me to relate to mental midgets. Sorry!
---kathr4453 on 6/13/19


\\It sounds like all denominational "churches" for each "church" places a burden on each of their members which include each denomination's rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible.\\

And you never do that in the worldly denominational "church" of Steveng, do you?

Who said that YOUR interpretaions of the Bible were the correct ones?

I don't find the Eastern Orthodox Christian lifestyle a burden at all.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


Kathryn
You said, you were no longer Gods servant. I was attempting to steer you away from this foolish teaching, by asking a pointed question. You took the point, but you stay on course.

So, I will try some logic.
Do you know who can call Jesus, Lord? .....His servants!!
A servant is not someone who calls him Lord, but is one who makes him Lord....by doing what he tells them to do?

(Luke 6:46) And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? You call him Lord, but you can not make him Lord because of your No Works Doctrine. Turn from it and follow Jesus, not Jimmy Swaggart.

I am not a Mormon, but I find Truth in multiple denominations. So I guess that makes me a religious Mutt.
---David on 6/13/19


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Steveng, I understand what you are saying about LOVE, as it is evaporating from everywhere. And having a president now as supposedly a representative of Christianity really brings that home, as we see more division and name calling and retaliation .....and many now are following his pattern rendering evil for evil. Also setting a pattern that one can be so arrogant as to think they are above the law, setting a horrible pattern for our younger generation to follow. We already see those who follow him are also,disobeying the law....because they think he is giving them permission....showing HATE towards those doing their job. Times are going to get more evil.

Do you have to belong to a denomination to be saved...NO.
---kathr4453 on 6/13/19


Here's the bottom line I'm seeing, that also correlate with 2Timothy 3 and end times...where we see love waxing cold described in detail in 2 Timothy 3. Examples flow down from the top. Any group now, who has the same mindset as our President...( they're out to get me mentality) will follow his example of thumbing their nose at the laws that govern. Take any particular group who feel persecuted....and feel wrongly accused, then follow in Trumps mindset as though this is the way ....leaves nothing but rebellion and chaos everywhere. I see this as the very axis of evil...

We have laws in our country and no president is above the law. We do not have Kings, or Dictators in control......no matter how deranged one might think they are.
---kath453 on 6/13/19


kathr wrote: "Using the Word of God in forcing verses here and there to try to fit this foul doctrine.."

It sounds like all denominational "churches" for each "church" places a burden on each of their members which include each denomination's rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of the bible.

Christians today make living a christian lifestyle complicated. Can a person be a christian without being a member of a denominational "church?"

Love, as in the verb form and from the heart, is the ultimate commandment spoken of by Jesus. Unfortunately, love has practically evaporated form the face of this world.
---Steveng on 6/12/19


Also Steveng, Gods word is not still changing. Scripture always prophecied there woud be a change. The Promise of the NEW COVENANT was fortold in the OT. So we can put our faith in that it has come to pass.

Religions like Mormonism have never been in scripture in any way shape or form. Using the Word of God in forcing verses here and there to try to fit this foul doctrine ..is what all cults do. And when shown its taken out of context...they always get nasty about it.

But to say we are still under the Law...scripture clearly states we are not. To say the Church is Israel, again...it says we are a NEW CREATION ..totally NEW. Its just folks only want to believe what they want to believe instead of what God said to believe.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/19


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2 Corinthians 6: 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

not 2 And 6:18....a mis -post below. Posting the whole verse as it is most significant.

If Mormons tell you we have the same beliefs...WE DO NOT.

And one David in his pride and envy will mutilate because obviously he is stating he is not a son. ....no wonder he doesn't understand the deeper things of Salvation by GRACE. ITS GRACE that brought us to becoming sons and joint heirs with Christ. That was NEVER promised to earthly Israel under the law.

And when Jesus said you will no longer be servants but sons....Steveng, reiterates chria9296 Hebrews 7:12 verse.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/19


Why even study the scriptures if God's word and his laws change all the time?

Chria, please read the entire chapter of Hebrews7. Read it slowly.
---Steveng on 6/12/19


David, What a perversion of your understanding of sons and heirs. Hebrews 12:7-8 says you are either a son or an illigitimate. NO SCRIPTURE states what you just posted. I can't help your corrupted understanding of Jesus words John 8:35 fulfilled in Galatians 4:7 Paul reiterating what Jesus promised. 2 For 6:18, Gal 4:5-6, Phil 2:15, Heb 2:10, 1 John 3:1-2.

No David, YOUR BELIEF shows your false beliefs not mine. Those IN CHRIST are already seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST. EPHESIANS 2:6,

Why are you so hell bent on falsely accusing me, or perverting scripture? Envy perhaps? My beliefs are clearly stated in scripture. It has nothing g to do with protestants...but BELIEVERS IN THE WORD OF GOD, you clearly show you are not.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/19


So actually David, God is my FATHER, as I also showed in those many scripture you probably will ignore. However it would behoove you to look up every one and pray on each one.

It's funny how you say it has to be something Jesus taught , then argue against what Jesus taught.

It's obvious David you have a grudge on your shoulder, continually opposing every verse of truth ...and adding your own twisted interpretation of something never said..but possibly something your Mormon Church teaches against Christians, placing yourselves superior, by some false premise.....not very clever. But something SATAN loves doing.

Now show me where Protestants believe your twisted idea of our being sons and heirs?
---kath453 on 6/12/19


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Since I've received Jesus Christ, I am a SON and no longer a servant. ---kathr4453

Kathryn
I fearfully suspected this of the Protestant doctrines, but you are the first to confirm this. I must admit, That does explain your doctrine.

So You were once a follower of Jesus Christ, but then God made you a Son, an heir to his throne. And as an heir, God is no longer your master. Will you also sit at the right hand of God?
---David on 6/12/19


Steveng, I know you have issues learning to rightly divide the Word of God. Firstly we see in scripture THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. But from the very beginning of time we see in the OT...THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

I also presume you are a sabbath keeper and that is why you hold your views.

The physical law has you physically keeping the sabbath....however Hebrews 3-4 explain under the NT, we ENTER HIS REST...which can only be done BY FAITH IN HIM. The Most awesome part of the NT or New Covenant is having that PEACE with God and PEACE OF God that passes all understanding, and SURPASSES all understanding as one experiences Ephesians 3:14-21. Keeping the LAW will never bring you there. Only GRACE WILL.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/19


One thing I've noticed here that is a contrast between the law keepers and those of the Grace Keepers.


The Law Keepers are those who put their efforts on man loving God. The Grace Keepers are those who proclaim the LOVE OF GOD to man.

Romans 5, Ephesians 3 just to name a couple places...but John 3:16....for God so loved HE GAVE. You see, PRIDE cannot accept this love. PRIDE feels it must earn it.....GRACE however knows it cannot earn Gods love, but simply receive it through His Son, Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-10 .
---kath453 on 6/12/19


Steveng,

"God's laws never change"

So your interpretation of heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
---chria9396 on 6/11/19


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kathr wrote: "I live in the NT under a totally different Covenant...l"

All of scripture is relevant. God's laws never change. God's word never changes. When Jesus and the apostles were teaching, from what scriptures were they teaching from since the NT was not written yet. The difference between the OT and the NT is that the OT was more of a physical nature, but the NT is of a spiritual nature. Same laws different use.

For instance, in the OT if a person murdered someone, that was a sin. In the NT, even if you THINK about murdering someone it's a sin. That's coming from the heart.

God is looking within the heart of man to populate the soon-to-come kingdom of God.
---Steveng on 6/11/19


Here's the way it goes. Those who are Christ's , who have obeyed Romans 6:10-17 ...re to yield....aka SURRENDER your members as those alive from the dead unto God, God promises to fulfill these promises in you, THAT SIN WILL NO LONGER HAVE power/ dominion over you.....
AND God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure is evidenced by: Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
---kathr4453 on 6/11/19


David, who was Paul talking to in Romans 2? Those who REJECTED the Lord? Those who worshiped the creature more than the creator? Those who seared their own hearts? Or those who received Him, believe in Him, have faith in Him? Receiving all the Promises that come with Receiving Him?

Since I've received Jesus Christ, I am a SON and no longer a servant. I also have been given a NEW LIFE IN HIM, and HE IN ME. So your verses don't address me.

Do they address you perhaps? Also David, you don't need to BOLD verses....as it does not empower those words more. Maybe a word or phrase to stand out.
---kathr4453 on 6/11/19


Also read Ezekiel 36. All of it. Prophecied of the NT. Tell me...how many. " IF YOU WILL's" do you capture in that chapter? Now how many "I WILL " ( unconditional ) do you capture?---kathr4453 on 6/10/19

Kathryn
So you believe, Paul was wrong in (Romans 2:5-10)?
But because of thy hardness and impenitence of heart, thou treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds: to those who by patient continuance in welldoing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life...
---David on 6/11/19


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David, I live in the NT under a totally different Covenant than you do. You live by a done away with Covennany. RE: 2 Corinthians 3

"your sin and iniquity I will remember no more...Hebrews 8-10 "

I simply do not live under an old done away with covenant. And under the OT sin was only covered, not done away in Christ. HEBREWS10.

I know Mormons hate the Book of Hebrews. That I can't help you with. But it's a matter of FAITH in believing His Promises. You want to live BC...I live AD.

Also read Ezekiel 36. All of it. Prophecied of the NT. Tell me...how many. " IF YOU WILL's" do you capture in that chapter? Now how many "I WILL " ( unconditional ) do you capture?
---kathr4453 on 6/10/19


NOTHING CAN SEPARATE ME FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.---kathr4453

Kathryn
I said, Sin separates us from Gods light. I did not say, his love.
(Isaiah 59:2) But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.

Notice the underscored,...YOUR GOD? Which means, Isaiah said this to Gods children.
Confession of sin removes this separation, this darkness. Confess your sins, and see the difference for yourself.

The greater the darkness, the longer you go without confession of sin, the more noticeable the light will be. It not only reveals sin, but the evil in the world you do not see now. (Isaiah 9:2)
---David on 6/10/19


Does Paul teach one is Crucified with Christ apart from faith, believing Jesus died for our sin? David, those who are crucified with Christ have gone above and beyond faith and repentance...and that is OBEDIENCE....becoming obedient unto death....keeping this mind in you that is also in Christ Jesus....I am crucified with Christ. gal 2:20-21....being made conformable to his death....Phil 3.

Your doctrine stops short of our being COMPLETE IN CHRIST. What you continue to do is state the above is another gospel....WRONG, it's what Jesus was praying about in John 17. It's just that it's over your head...and because it's over your head, you scoff at it.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/19


Matt 28:19-20 was the great kingdom commission given to the twelve judges of the coming kingdom (Mat 19:28). It's missing the gospel of the grace of God.
Most don't know these were not the final words of Jesus. He sent another Apostle to minister under a higher commission with a greater gospel. (2 Cor 5:18)
Instead of gospel of the kingdom, baptism, and observance to the law, Paul was given a ministry of reconciliation to preach the gospel of the grace of God, explaining how ALL men, without law, water baptism, and a covenant could receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Paul was the first to take the gospel of the mystery meaning of the cross work of Christ.
---michael_e on 6/2/19


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kathr4453 wrote: "...Once IN CHRIST we are never separated from God..."

So, you believe in OSAS (Once Saves Always Saved) doctrine.

How do you explain the end time prophesy of "there will be a great falling away from the faith. One must have faith to begin with in order to fall away, eh?
---Steveng on 6/2/19


I believe as a saved, Holy Spirit filled Christian, that the Holy Spirit within me will always be at work in me convicting me of this or that. So the idea that sin in a Christians life separates them from God is not true. Once IN CHRIST we are never separated from God....because Christ is never separated from God. We definitely will be disciplined, but separated from God our Father is AGAIN FALSE DOCTRINE. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE ME FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. Now sin does separate an unbeliever from God, because they are not IN CHRIST. WE ARE? Galatians 2:20-21. That's why Jesus came to reconcile us back to the Father.

And when my kids were naughty, I never left them for one second.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/19


David are ALL believers still in sin? Or just some? If it's ALL, THEN YOU SAY ROMANS 6 is not one of the PLETHORA of examples ---kathr4453

Kathryn
No, but many are.

The problem with not just yours, but most doctrines, is they align themselves with a few passages, like (Romans 6), which may support their teachings, but ignore the majority of New Testament teachings which refute their doctrines.

For example, I tell you what Jesus taught...and you quote Paul, seemly not realizing you when you do this, you undermine the teachings of Jesus Christ, the very teachings from which Pauls emanated.

And you have no witnesses in the New Testament, which supports what you believe Paul was teaching. When I have many.
---David on 6/2/19


\\ 1. None. Zero
2. It doesn't
---michael_e on 6/1/19\\

michael_e, why did Jesus command something to be done that has no effect at all?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/2/19


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....... A believer who is still in sin, must confess sin daily!!!
Why?

Because Unconfessed sin separates us from God and his light. This separation leaves us in the dark, so we can not see the sin, we are to turn away from.
---David on 6/1/19

David are ALL believers still in sin? Or just some? If it's ALL, THEN YOU SAY ROMANS 6 is not one of the PLETHORA of examples ...OR if you say "some".... are you saying only they have to confess daily and the others don't?
---kathr4453 on 6/2/19


The spiritual effect of baptism, is a resulting faith for the remission of sins, and an answer of a good conscience toward God, through an acknowledged confidence in the atoning sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ, for the salvation of the man who has been washed by the water of the Word.
---josef on 6/1/19


1. None. Zero
2. It doesn't
---michael_e on 6/1/19


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