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Christian Symbolism Matrix

Has anyone noticed the Christian symbolism in LES MISERABLES or the first MATRIX movie?

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 ---Cluny on 6/11/19
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I watched the musical LES MIZ last night, and among other things, saw a very strong allegory about the righteousness of grace (represented by Valjean) and that of law (Javert).

When presented with grace one more time, Javert couldn't stand it and killed himself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/22/19


Nicole, I try. I think personal attacks are uncalled for. After all, we are made in the image of God and we should try to treat each other that way.
---JS1234 on 7/21/19


JS1234:

There are a few people on these blogs who are very avid Sabbatarians (e.g. Seventh Day Adventists and similar - it's pretty easy to figure out who they are) who say we should only worship on the Sabbath, and worshiping on Sunday is totally wrong - and who are constantly judging everyone here on what day they worship, despite Paul's specific commandments not to do so.

Unless you wish to get involved in that particular quagmire of a debate, it's probably better to just ignore them.

By the way, I love your comments here. Your total lack of rancor is a refreshing change. When I joined these blogs a bit over 10 years ago, I was warned they were the "piranha blogs", and I have sadly found this hasn't changed.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/19


Nicole, I have no argument with Sunday worship. I am okay with it.
---JS1234 on 7/20/19


JS1234, I tried to explain why the Sabbath Day was celebrated on Sundays. Sunday as the day Jesus rose. Because it is now our 8th day which never ends.

But, if you wish to understand better, Google Sabbath or Sunday? Catholic Answers.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/19/19




mike:

I know of NO Christians who "worship the sun". That premise is ridiculous. If you choose to worship on Saturday, am I supposed to infer from this that you worship Saturn? That is equally ridiculous.

Paul told us that some people treat some days as more holy than others, and other people treat all days as equally holy - let each be persuaded in his own mind. Why do YOU disobey him and NOT let each to be persuaded in his own mind?

Paul also told us not to allow anyone to judge us with respect to the sabbaths, so we are COMMANDED TO IGNORE YOU when you judge us this way.
---StrongAxe on 7/19/19


No specific names or dates are associated with the church's shift from observing the holy day on Saturday to observing it on Sunday. At first, especially when many Christians were converted Jews, their holy day was Saturday. However, because the Resurrection and the beginning of Creation had both occurred on the first day of the week (Sunday), the church soon observed that day instead. (More Gentiles were becoming Christians as well, which contributed to a desire to shake off Jewish customs.) By the end of the first century, Sunday worship was the norm.
---JS1234 on 7/17/19


I answered you before cluny, constantine changed sabbath to SUN day bec. they are pagan worshipper\\

No, he didn't.

In any case, earlier you said it was the pope.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

And Cardinal Gibbons is totally wrong.

Ancient Churches of apostolic foundation, such as in Persia, Assyria, and India, which had nothing to do with the popes (or Constantine_\) never had Saturday, but always Sunday as their principal worship day.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/17/19


\SUN-day is the pope's day not Christ.\\

mike, can you tell me WHICH pope changed the worship day from Saturday to Sunday, and when he did so?

I've asked you this question several times, and you've never even attempted to answer it.

YOu also seem to be totally ignorant of the historical fact that classical paganism did NOT have a weekly worship day.

I answered you before cluny, constantine changed sabbath to SUN day bec. they are pagan worshippers. even if the truth both historical & biblical is presented to you, you are too arrogant to accept it. even cardinal gibbons admit that they changed the 7th day to SUN day. you do admit that you worship the SUN, then leave 'glory to christ' how inconsistent.
---mike on 7/17/19


Your response to JS1234 was excellent and on point.

I am HAPPY to know you can make perfect remarks about some subjects. :D
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/4/19




Thank you, StrongAxe. I pray that people will do what they can, myself most of all.
---JS1234 on 7/4/19


JS1234:

You wrote: Do any of you do the good works mentioned in Matthew 25 on a regular basis?

That is an excellent question! Those who do such deeds will probably just do them naturally, and not keep track of them, while those who DO keep track of such things likely do so just so they can boast - and boasting is a bad thing.

Matthew 7:21-23: Many will say "Lord, didn't we do great works in your name?" and he will say "I never knew you".
Matthew 6:4,6,18: We should do our good works in secret
Ephesians 6:8-9: We are saved through faith. Not of works "lest anyone should boast".
---StrongAxe on 7/4/19


StrongAxe: If you are accused of a crime, saying "Others do it too" is not a defense. It doesn't make your crime all right.//

Who said the crimes were okay? I answered your snooty comment:

***The Pope just issued guidelines for clergy to report abuse - in 2019. Why so late?--StrongAxe on 6/30/19

I called it snooty because you haven't addressed Protestant's abuses? Why haven't their Leaders done anything?

Did you even read the guidelines?

He said ALL ABUSES must be reported to the police even if the victim or family of the victim DOESN'T report them to the police.

He had the Church ALSO have to address the abuses even if the Civil Authorities doesn't or fail to convict the Abusers.
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/3/19


Nicole_Lacey:

If you are accused of a crime, saying "Others do it too" is not a defense. It doesn't make your crime all right. That many Protestants are involved in child abuse is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the Catholic Church covering up its own sins in that regard. If the Church finally started to clean up its act 17 years ago, that's less than 1% of its entire history. If you were a 100-year-old criminal, and just turned over a new leaf last year, would that make everything all right and erase all your guilt, and the damage your actions caused?

Just this year, the Pope said abuse should be reported to church authorities BUT NOT police. As abuse is usually, that encourages obstruction of justice.
---StrongAxe on 7/3/19


StrongAxe, you need to ask Protestants what have they done to protect their children since more are abused.

The Catholic Church started the 'Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People' in 2002

"The Charter is a comprehensive set of procedures established by the USCCB in June, 2002 for addressing allegations of sexual abuse of minors by Catholic clergy. The Charter also includes guidelines for reconciliation, healing, accountability, and prevention of further acts of abuse." -- USCCB

I had to take the course just to teach CCD/PSR (same thing as Sunday School in Protestant Churches) and it has to be renewed yearly.

I knew a Deacon who had to complete the course just to baptized his own grandchild.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/30/19


Cluny:

Yes. However, what is a key point here is how the church deals with it. If the church truly treats this as a heinous aberration, if will rip it out of its own flesh, like a surgeon with cancer. On the other hand, when the church makes policies that cover its own sins, it becomes complicit in those sins.

The Pope just issued guidelines for clergy to report abuse - in 2019. Why so late? This has been a known issue IN THE MEDIA for decades, let alone hidden for much longer.

There have been cases in protestant churches where women reported abuse by pastors and other clergy - and congregations sided with the pastors and shamed the victims.


Nicole_Lacey:

I tried, but it didn't get posted.
---StrongAxe on 6/30/19


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Remember that pedophilia happened in the Roman Catholic Church--and Protestant ones, too==not because of their teachings, but in spite of them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/19


StrongAxe, making up stuff again. You will NOT NAME the so called sins the Catholic Church refused to repent or forget.

NAME ONE!

//If (say) some person was convicted of child abuse, served their time, repented. How many parents would allow such a person to be around their children?//

Forgiving doesn't mean you are stupid.

I can forgive you, allow you to be around me and share my food with you.

But, I am not God. It would be abuse to my children to trust a child molester to be around them.

Who is really vulnerable? Me or my child?

If I am wrong, what I am going to tell my child?

'I am sorry son, but God said to forgive everyone. I thought he was repented.

That's abuse! Matt 2:22
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/27/19


Can we please get back to my original question about Christian symbolism in Les Miz and first Matrix, please?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/19


Nicole_Lacey:

On several occasions, I have posted replies, and received the messages that the moderators were not available - and after they returned, NONE of my replies were EVER posted.

My point of correcting you was that Jesus didn't ALLOW thieves and prostitutes to continues their past sins.

My point was that the Catholic church (and others) are willing to get past some sins, but there are some sins that they never forgives or forget, even after the have been repented of.

If (say) some person was convicted of child abuse, served their time, repented. How many parents would allow such a person to be around their children?
---StrongAxe on 6/27/19


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StrongAxe: When moderators are on vacation, the system eats all posts and never posts them.//

NOT TRUE. I wrote them BEFORE vacation several times. They released other posts after the ones I claim they didn't release.

Plus, they released posts I wrote during their vacation.

//Evangelicals and Catholics can have long memories too.//

Maybe you do, BUT NOT ME!

Democrats always ASSUME other people are committing the same crimes as themselves!

I don't watch fiction filth movies.

My point of correcting you was that Jesus didn't ALLOW thieves and prostitutes to continues their past sins.

You have forgotten Jesus' Words of "Do not sin anymore."
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/25/19


Nicole_Lacey:

When moderators are on vacation, the system eats all posts and never posts them.

Pharisees had long memories about people's sins, so once a thief/prostitute, always a thief/prostitute. Evangelicals and Catholics can have long memories too.

The good film that illustrates that is Mass Appeal, about a young seminarian who had "been to Paree" (with both "Parisiettes" and "Parisiens") being thrown by a bishop who couldn't get over the "Parisiens" part, even though the boy had taken a vow of celibacy. As his defender said, "Celibacy is celibacy, even if your thing happens to be - goats!", but the Bishop refused to see that.
---StrongAxe on 6/25/19


Sorry StrongAxe, the Moderator refused to post my response to you.

If you read your statement it could have been taken the way I took it because of the double spacing.

But I believe your words that you didn't mean it that way.

Nevertheless, Jesus knew she repented because He can read the heart and knew she was sorry.

//He had thieves and prostitutes among his followers.//

No, He had Ex-thieves and Ex-prostitutes as His followers.

You make it seem as they work at night and follow Jesus during the day.

They repented as Jesus said and followed Him.

That has ALWAYS been His demand BEFORE following Him.

Matthew 4:17
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/24/19


Nicole_Lacey:

How have I become a "church lady" against you?

I didn't give you a choice between hypocritical Pharisees on one side, and hypocritical "Church Ladies" on the other (which would have implied that you're a hypocrite no matter which one you choose - a bit like the "have you stopped beating your wife?" question).

I gave you a choice between Jesus on one side, and hypocritical Pharisees and "Church Ladies" on the other.
---StrongAxe on 6/14/19


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StrongAxe, I know exactly what your meant about Church Ladies and Pharisees. I remember the 'Church Lady' on SNL

Ironically, you seem not to realize that you became the 'Church Lady' against me. While looking down at 'Church Ladies'

//By no means am I saying that most ladies in church are like that, but the few who are give the rest a bad name.//

Yes, and I am one of them to you.

You gave me 2 options to pick my own character.

Pharisee or Ladies of the Church.

//Others look only at the evil in things and other people. They find fault even in saints. These were the Pharisees of Jesus' day, and the "Church Ladies" of today.

Which are you?--StrongAxe 6/13/19

I am neither. Matt 7:1
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/14/19


Nicole_Lacey:

I never said ignore sins or crimes. I said look past them and see good. When Pharisees brought Jesus to the woman caught in adultery, they were about to stone her, yet he saw past her sin, and did not condemn her. THAT'S what I'm talking about. Judgmental Pharisees cannot see past the sin.

When he met the woman at the well, he said she had several husbands, and was living with a man not her husband. He didn't condemn her for being a serial adulteress.

He had thieves and prostitutes among his followers. That didn't bother Jesus, but it DID bother the Pharisees who constantly condemned him for allowing such disreputable rabble around him.

Love like Jesus. Don't hate like the Pharisees.
---StrongAxe on 6/14/19


StrongAxe, your thought process is wrong. Convicted Prisoner states they were found guilty by our justice system. A right. If you mean how they are treated AFTERWARDS is another thing.

Just because a convicted Rapist finished his sentence it doesn't mean I HAVE to let down my guard.

That's what happens when you commit crimes and it stays on your records. That's how the Government warns society.

Rapists are not Killers.

Remember the BTK Strangler, Dennis Lynn Rader? He picked that name for himself - "BTK" (for "Bind, Torture, Kill").

*Rader was a member of Christ Lutheran Church and had been elected president of the church council.He was also a Cub Scout leader.- Wikipedia
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/14/19


\\In Matrix movie there were those who were slaves in bondage to the Matrix, and others who were set free. \\

Good point, Haz.

And where did those set free of the Matrix go to live?

Zion City.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


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Nicole_Lacey:

Most of them won't repent. However, a small number will, but they will only be given a chance if someone is willing to give them one, by seeing the good in them. Someone who sees only the bad will immediately give up on them and abandon them to prison.

By "Church Lady" I reference the stereotype of sanctimonious pharisaical hypocrites who boast how holy they are, while gossiping and condeming others. The archetypical example is Dana Carvey's "Church Lady" on SNL. Betty Bowers "America's Best Christian" is more modern example.

By no means am I saying that most ladies in church are like that, but the few who are give the rest a bad name.
---StrongAxe on 6/13/19


StrongAxe: They can see the good even in convicted killers, and bring them to redemption.//

What? That doesn't make any sense!

According to your logic, all I have to do is 'see the good' in convicted killers in order to make them repent.

That's not how it works!

After a Killer repents we should see the good in them.

Hellooo, St. Paul?

//Others look only at the evil in things and other people. They find fault even in saints. These were the Pharisees of Jesus' day, and the "Church Ladies" of today.

Which are you?//

Me? Seems you just described yourself.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee. I don't know about your Church, but my Church Ladies are non judgemental.

Matthew 7:1
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/13/19


In Matrix movie there were those who were slaves in bondage to the Matrix, and others who were set free.

We see the same in Gal 4:21-25 Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her childrenbut the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
---Haz27 on 6/13/19


mike:

You wrote: like your SUN god?

Who are you talking to? NOBODY here worships a "sun god". And what does this have to do with the blog topic, or anything being discussed here?
---StrongAxe on 6/13/19


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\\ like your SUN god?
---mike on 6/13/19\\

I don't know about you, mike, but I worship the Sun of Righteousness with healing in His wings.

Contrary to the teaching of those who make the Saturday Sabbath an issue, paganism NEVER had a weekly day of worship.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


like your SUN god?
---mike on 6/13/19


To mention just a couple of Christian symbolism in the first MATRIX (though not the others):

Agent Smith said that he hated this planet and everything on it. Is there a better description of Satan?

Just before Neo's final ascension, he said, "I will show you a new world without rules." We can't be saved by keeping rules.

Anyone have any others in MATRIX, or LES MIZ?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/13/19


Nicole_Lacey:

We aren't talking about judging Evil or Satan. We're talking about judging fiction, which is not so obviously black and white.

Good and evil may be objective, but whether you look at something and see mostly good or mostly evil IS subjective.

The Bible contains tales or redemption, but also murder, genocide, adultery, rape, and incest.

Some people look only at the good in things and other people. They can see the good even in convicted killers, and bring them to redemption.

Others look only at the evil in things and other people. They find fault even in saints. These were the Pharisees of Jesus' day, and the "Church Ladies" of today.

Which are you?
---StrongAxe on 6/13/19


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There are christian and santanic symbolism in everything we read, see, hear, smell, taste, and feel - subtle they may be. Movies and novels may seem to be right biblically, but Satan has a way to turn something that looks good into something evil. Timothy says something to the affect do not give heed to these movies or novels (actually he states fables, but that's what they are) that questions sound doctrine, rather than godly edifying which is in faith.
---Steveng on 6/12/19


StrongAxe: If you look for evil, you fill find it everywhere you look.//

You had me up to this point.

Evil isn't subjective. It is objective.

Just because some people think Jesus is evil doesn't make Him evil. Jesus is always Good, Pure and Light.

Just because some people think satan is good doesn't make him good. He will always be evil, mean and darkness.

//This is why we are commanded to think about good things.//

No, because you can't make evil good. That's why you shouldn't dwell or think about evil because you will become evil.

Matthew 7:17-18

One can not expect to imitate Jesus from watching and thinking about filthy shows.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/12/19


One can find Christian symbolism in almost anything, if you look hard enough. You can also find other kinds of symbolism too, if you look hard enough. Despite The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia having been written by Christian authors, and despite their having deep Christian symbolism, many paranoid Christians have denounced both works as satanic and occultic.

It just goes to show - if you look for good, you will find it everywhere you look. If you look for evil, you fill find it everywhere you look. This is why we are commanded to think about good things.
---StrongAxe on 6/12/19


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