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Predestined For Hell

Are people who do not become Christians predestined to hell, or do they just go there by default?

It seems obvious from Scripture that Christians are predestined to be so. But it is not clear about those who do not become Christians.

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 ---JS1234 on 7/15/19
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John you are taking Ephesians 2:1-2 out of context.....read verse 5. Now read chapters 1 through Chapter 6. now read 1 Corinthians 15:36....your not quickened unless you first die. Jesus died first before being QUICKENED. ***** 1Peter 3:18-22***** Romans 8:11-13 Hebrews 13:20-21 read together.

So when we DIE WITH CHRIST AKA BEING CRUCIFIED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST...AKA DEAD DEAD...ONLY then are we quickened TOGETHER WITH CHRIST. There is not some magic fairy with its magic wand flying around quickening anyone out of no where saying I PICK YOU AND YOU AND YOU apart from being IN CHRIST first dying with Him. That's the nonsense you all teach and believe....but it's not according to scripture. Those IN CHRIST KNOW BETTER.
---kat453 on 9/17/19


strongaxe:

1. Thank you for admitting that Matt 7:13-23 doesn't support your assertion that billions will be loss as you have been asserting.

2. The verses in further contradict your assertion that billions will be loss since those verses you cited that many a multitude and countless reference the elect it contradicts you because it states that if I use your logic billions will be saved...

3. You did state prior that Calvinists believe billions will be loss but now you have no support your renouncing that claim and thank you for honesty...
---john9346 on 9/17/19


js1234:
You cited Col 1:18-20 in your assertion that satan will be forgiven, but Paul inspired of the Holy Spirit tells you who he is talking about in vs 21-23

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister,
---john9346 on 9/17/19


God will ultimately reconcile all things to himself. That has to include everyone who opposed him, including Satan and those angels who followed him. It's a beautiful thing that God is going to do.
---JS1234 on 9/16/19

No it doesn't have to JS1234. ONLY THOSE in Christ As Christ is head of the NEW CREATION. God is not reconciling the old creature or old creation or all of Adam 1 or demons to Himself... ..there will be a NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH....NOT A reconciled old earth . Old things pass away. Gone caput. bye bye...You are misreading those verses. More scripture says many will not enter in the New Creation. Rev 20-21 You are mixing reconstruction theology with your beliefs which is a false Doctrine.
---kath453 on 9/17/19


John here are important verses showing ISRAEL THE NATION, as Gods Elect...Deut 7:6, Exodus 19:4-6, Psalma 135:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:1-2, 45:4

And loud and clear Amos 3:2. YOU ONLY HAVE I KNOWN OF ALL THE FAMILIES On earth....

Not John the Gentile. No Gentile was Gods elect. No individual Jew or Gentile....but the WHOLE NATION. They were not automatically saved because they were Gods elect.

Now we do see in Romans 11:1-8 God has not forgotten them. But He will remember them after YOU a GENTILE WILD AGAINST NATURE is grafted in. But until then MULTITUDES OF JEWS are and have been LOST over the last 2000 years. There's no universal salvation for them who rejected Christ...elect though they may be.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/19




john9346:

What are "life" and "destruction" in Mt 7:13-14? If not salvation and damnation, then what?

Rev 3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" Makes no mention of how many.
Rev 5:11: 101 thousand angels: no mention of humans here.
Rev 19:1: "much people" - no specific numbers
Rev 19:6: "great multitude" - no specific numbers, and no mention if they were humans or angels.

I said "Do the math" - i.e. take facts, and connect the dots to their inevitable conclusion.

I didn't say Calvinists SAY billions lost. They teach PREDESTINATION - i.e. God decides who will be saved. FEW are saved and MANY are lost, so at LEAST 3.5 billion will be lost.
---StrongAxe on 9/16/19


"He is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Philippians 1:18-20)

God will ultimately reconcile all things to himself. That has to include everyone who opposed him, including Satan and those angels who followed him. It's a beautiful thing that God is going to do.
---JS1234 on 9/16/19


strongaxe:

1. Let me know if you need help remembering I have in the past post and can do again...

2. Many and few in Matt 7:13-23 is referring to behavior/action not billion as you have been asserting.

3. there are verses that describe the elect Rev 3:19,5:11, 19, etc.
This contradicts your assertion because now I can conclude that billions will be saved

do you see your inconsistency???
---john9346 on 9/16/19


strongaxe:

I challenge you before all show from the London Baptist Confession of 1689 where it is stated that Calvinists believe and teach that billions of sinners will be loss?
---john9346 on 9/16/19


Kathr said, "So your idea of elect and Gods is two entirely different things."

Not according to Deut 7:6 and Ps. 147:20 You might want to read Deut 7:6 and Ps 147:20 and when you do we can talk further lol

You also contradict yourself and agree with me you said, "Israel Gods elect people out of all the peoples of the world were His Chosen, to be a light to the Nations....."
---john9346 on 9/16/19




Kathr said, "John says God lied and believes man who is Dead can't reason. Who do YOU believe..."

Hey Kathr I didn't write Eph 2:1-2 I wasn't around lol

I see you cant answer the question I asked you 3 times based upon Eph 2:1-2

You go bring up Isaiah who is talking to a people who are already elected that you agree me me :-)
Isa 1:18

Also, if the wIf Jesus died for the whole world everyone would be saved and no would be in hell right now...
---john9346 on 9/16/19


john9346:

1. It is UP TO YOU to show what I said - NOT me to prove your point and accuse me of short memory when I don't.

2. I SPECIFICALLY said Jesus didn't mention numbers, so saying I did is a LIE. He said "many" and "few". Our world has numbers. *YOU* to do the math.

Calvinists believe predestination - God chooses who will be saved - those who won't are NECESSARILY damned from birth, and there's nothing they can do to change that. Prove me wrong.

3. Scripure is TRANSLATED into English. Are translators are wrong? What "context" makes "few" larger than "many"? I'm waiting.

4. Rev 7? Compared to 7 billion, 144000 is a drop in the bucket. What numbers in Rev 5?
---StrongAxe on 9/16/19


John those in Isaiah you say we're already elect scripture shows Israel as a whole was not automatically saved. Romans 9-11 should be clear what Paul is saying. So your idea of elect and Gods is two entirely different things. Israel Gods elect people out of all the peoples of the world were His Chosen, to be a light to the Nations.....again were under the LAW of Moses and by that were no more saved than Paul was before His own conversion.

Israel THE NATION will always be Gods ELECT.

They were in their SINS when God said let us reason together. Remember the blood of bulls and goats did not TAKE AWAY SIN.

You are not grounded in scripture John, and don't know what you are talking about.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/19


Everyone in the whole world has the same opportunity to be saved as our John does here. Faith comes by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD. WHERE THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD, GOD IS REASONING WITH YOU. We've already seen God say to SINNERS...let Us Reason TOGETHER. John says God lied and believes man who is Dead can't reason. Who do YOU believe...God or man? You see REAL FAITH is believing GOD. And if you BELIEVE ISAIAH you are calling John and his doctrine FALSE, with its own bogus false worldview.

Dont put your faith in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Calvin was just a man with opinions and theories. He had no more access to truth than anyone here today. Calvin also believed in infant baptism...RED FLAG FOLKS.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/19


strongaxe:

1. Your World View is explicitly clear obviously you seem to have a short memory and others here don't pay attention to what you write...

2. You are incorrect in asserting actual numbers in Jesus's Mouth as well as what Calvinists believe...

3. Scripture is written in Greek and Hebrew not English Math and the context of Matt 7:13-23 calls you a liar...

4. Other places in Scripture like Revelation has the elect as many so now you see your not listening to Jesus...

5. You also assert that sinners are innocent that Jesus contradicts...
---john9346 on 9/16/19


js1234 said, "
If He wills it, it will happen. If people don't want to believe it, that's up to them."

What God said through the apostle is one thing understanding what God said through Paul is another thing. 1 Tim 2:4 is only truly understood in context 1 Tim 2:1-5.

Sir, your isolating verses outside of their context this is how you come up with the heresy that satan will be forgiven???

---john9346 on 9/16/19


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Kathr:

Paul by the Spirit of God says otherwise about the condition of sinners:

Listen:

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So, my question to you again can a dead man choose third time asking you???

Isa 1:18 was to a people who were already elect not elect also God was calling them back to there duty not their ability.

Also, please read Rom 3:10-12 before Rom 6:8?
---john9346 on 9/16/19


Strongaxe:

I bring up your World View because it presents a conundrum for you because since you don't believe that the bible is no different then any other religious books and that Jesus and the apostles really didn't write it you cant consistently dialog/debate me.

You see, I certain and confident that the bible is Theopneustos, your not i'm not raising this to be nasty to you but with hopes you will realize your error and repent. I actually find you interesting out of all others here and appreciate your logical philosophical approach i'm just challenging you to be consistent...


Peace,


John9346
---john9346 on 9/16/19


There are 7 different WORLDVIEWS: Theism, Atheism, Pantheism, Panentheism, Deism, Finite Godism, and Polytheism. People with these views have different beliefs about how they see life and the world at large.

John also has a WORLDVIEW.

So John, from the list above, which worldview are you accusing Strongaxe of having? Be very specific, or stick a sock in it. And then PROVE your accusation by personal quotes of Strongaxe's. Just to accuse one of having a WORLDVIEW shows again IGNORANCE.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/19


I find it sad that people believe that God is either unwilling or unable to save all humanity. He went to all the trouble of creating it, so why would he want to destroy most of it?

God wills that all men be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4). If He wills it, it will happen. If people don't want to believe it, that's up to them.
---JS1234 on 9/15/19


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john9346:

I do. Do you know where I get "Jesus' own words"? From the Bible, as the Evangelists transcribed them, not as some people do, by imaginging what they think Jesus might be telling them in their heads, even if it constradicts scripture, as that's how many cults are born.

Please explain exactly what in my last several messages was incorrect. That is exactly the conclusion one must reach if one believes Calivinism.

No, Matthew 7 doesn't mention EXACT NUMBERS, but every human on the planet has a common sense understanding of what the words "many" and "few" mean. Do the math. And please don't presume to jump to conclusions about "my World View".
---StrongAxe on 9/16/19


John Romans 6-8...So being raised up together with Him a new Creature is FORCED? Ok So you're saying the Lord forces the second death on you HERE, so you don't have to experience the second death later? Did you not know the second death we experience NOW is being crucified with Christ.....and then we are QUICKENED With Christ

Our first death we had no choice but the second death is a choice and Jesus Christ DOES NOT FORCE anyone TO BE CRUCIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM.

There is no resurrection life IN CHRIST without first dying with Christ.

Now I know you have no clue what I'm talking about, so maybe ITS YOU who needs to have the Lord explain, and not Calvin.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/19


John seems to think HIS DEFINITION OF A "dead person" cannot walk and talk or reason together with God, has no conscience, like a zombie apocalypse .....I think he's watching too many silly movies. Yea sure if dead means zombie ....but DEAD in scripture has many different nuances meanings. He wants to apply the DEAD as in last breath open casket funeral dead. He claims all are born walking zombies.

Problem with his doctrine, that Calvin didn't get either....if all are so DEAD DEAD, there would be no reason for a second death.

John can't answer this, because John has not experienced a second death here and now resulting in a resurrected life IN CHRIST as we speak. His own question gives away his ignorance.
---kat453 on 9/16/19


This verse completely blows John and all Calvinist's silly arrogant doctrine out if the water. GODS WORDS TO SINNERS WHILE STILL IN THEIR SIN.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

They "SHALL BE" ..is future tense. God here is talking to SINNERS....JOHN'S DEAD...

Israel under the Law were not Born Again either, yet John accuses God of duplicity ...is BLASPHEMY.

JOHN IS A BLASPHEMER..FALSELY ACCUSING GOD and man.

Calvinism is a dangerous false doctrine.
---kathr453 on 9/16/19


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Strongaxe:

I urge you my friend to let the Lord Jesus explain to you his own words and not you attempting to tell him what he actually meant (yes you said it Jesus but you really don't know what your talking about)

I know your World View will not allow you to do so but read in context verses 13-23 and tell me where is a billion or any numbers mentioned for the elect???

Praying for you,

God Bless,
---john9346 on 9/15/19


kathr said, "You all also claim faith is forced on one as well."


Kathr, according to Eph 2:1-2

Again, my questions to you are

Kathr, if someone brings a dead person back to life is that force yes or no?

Can people who are dead choose yes or no?
ReadEph2:1-6. Paul tells you.
---john9346 on 9/15/19


kathr said, "You all also claim faith is forced on one as well."


Kathr, according to Eph 2:1-2

Again, my questions to you are

Kathr, if someone brings a dead person back to life is that force yes or no?

Can people who are dead choose yes or no?
ReadEph2:1-6. Paul tells you.



Its interesting how Kathr and strongaxe are trying to engage in personal attacks since they realize Scripture is ripping their faulty assertions apart lol
---john9346 on 9/15/19


js1234 said, "
john9346, yes, everyone will be saved. That's what God wills and whatever God wills, will happen. It is as simple as that, and it's a very wonderful thing!"


Sir, show everyone here from the Scriptures where Jesus and his apostles taught this?? Just saying something doesn't make it true no matter how many times you repeat it...
---john9346 on 9/15/19


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Isaiah 13:9 - Behold, the day of The Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners, thereof out of it.

Psalms 145:20 - The Lord preserveth all them that love him: But the wicked will be destroy,

1 Peter 4:18 - And if the righteous scarcely be saved, Where shall the ungodly and sinner appear.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found in the Book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is Baptized shall be saved, But he that believeth not shall be damned,

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal .
---RichardC on 9/15/19


john9346, yes, everyone will be saved. That's what God wills and whatever God wills, will happen. It is as simple as that, and it's a very wonderful thing!
---JS1234 on 9/15/19


John I've heard all these Calvin arguments before.....not gonna legitimize these stupid questions you all ask thinking you are making a statement.

You all also claim faith is forced on one as well.

No scripture teaches such nonsense.

But by all means continue in your false belief ...if it makes YOU feel better. That's what these cults are all about...,,how YOU are the elect few, like the JWs teach, where actually JWs and Mormons Is a spinoff from Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/19


john9346:

Matthew 7:13 ...for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Very simple use of English or any other language: MANY is larger than FEW.

Very basic mathematics: If you split a group of things into two parts, one of which is larger than the other, the larger part is MORE THAN HALF, and the smaller part is LESS THAN HALF.
Since there are 7+ billion people on the earth, and half is 3.5+ billion, MORE than 3.5+ billion people are going to destruction. If you can't grasp this, I suggest re-taking elementary school math.
---StrongAxe on 9/15/19


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strongaxe:

Matt 7:14 is addressing the contrasting and comparison of the availability of behavior/sin not numbers because rev 7 and 5 shows many who are actually of the elect.

Now you just shown how you cant support your assertions of billions and Scripture teach no such thing.
---john9346 on 9/15/19


strongaxe:

1. your assertion is based on what you don't understand what we who are reform/calvinists tteach.

2. Your assertion is further flawed because you are asserting that sinners are innocent who the Lord Jesus states are not.
Why are you calling the Lord Jesus a liar?

Next, God commands and calls sinners to repent and believe and come to him:

Mk 1:15, Acts 2:38, Lk 13:1-5, and Rom 3:23

I challenge show from Scripture that the Lord Jesus and his apostles taught that sinners are innocent
---john9346 on 9/15/19


kathr said, "Limited atonement is OT animal sacrifice.."

Kathr is everyone in the entire world saved yes or no?

Kathr said, "Also a gift of something OFFERED, not forced on. God no more forces salvation on ALL anymore than He forces on a FEW."

Kathr, if someone brings a dead person back to life is that force yes or no?

Can people who are dead choose yes or no?
---john9346 on 9/15/19


john9346:

The Bible DOES say that the way is narrow, and "few" find it. "Few" necessarily means "less than half". At present, there are in excess of 7 billion people on earth (not counting all the people who have gone before), which necessarily means 3.5 billion+ pre-destined for hell, according to Calvinism - created solely to burn in agony for eternity.

No, parents aren't. But is it just to create someone unable to perform a task, require them to perform that task, and then condemn them for not being able to perform that task SPECIFICALLY because you created them unable to perform that task in the first place?
---StrongAxe on 9/15/19


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Salvation is a Gift through Jesus Christ....the Gift of RIGHTEOUSNESS that comes only through Jesus Christ. He takes our sin and gives us His righteousness. Limited atonement is OT animal sacrifice.. It was only temporary. Limited until Jesus died and rose again.

Also a gift of something OFFERED, not forced on. God no more forces salvation on ALL anymore than He forces on a FEW.

The THROUGH FAITH is what is OUR RESPONSIBILITY. Hebrews 11 can't get any clearer. Cain and Abel both offered to God....is the example show how God works. Abel's was by faith, Cain's was a works sacrifice.

If faith without works is dead, and faith is only forced on a few or all....why did James even bother writing James at all?
---kathr4453 on 9/15/19


StrongAxe

Excellent observation!
---JS1234 on 9/14/19


strongaxe:

Your assertion is fallacious because Scripture doesn't state whether the elect is 2 million or 2 billion some few or all , so i have to wonder how you conclude such Unbiblical mathematics??

As far as your anology regarding parents to children in jumping the wall the question you must answer is are parents infanently just, holy, and perfect yes or no???
---john9346 on 9/14/19


js1234 said, "John9346, God has said that it is his will everyone be saved. 1st Timothy 2:4."

No sir, I'm stating what Paul moved by the Spirit meant when he wrote 1 Tim 2:4 in context is addressing all kind of men in government to be prayed for in prayer see vs 2:1-4.

The only way anyone minds are changed is simply by allowing the authors of Holy Scripture to tell us what they meant and not us tell them what we think they should have said to make us feel better...

Furthermore, Paul himself believed absolutely in predestination Rom 8:29-30, 9:9-23, Eph 1:13.

May the Lord convince you of himself soli deo gloria
---john9346 on 9/14/19


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js1234:

If you reject Calvinism then why did you write the following just recently:




Salvation is entirely God's work. There is nothing that we can do to get ourselves saved. This is really good news because I know for sure there is nothing about me, and there is nothing that I have ever done, that could make God save me.


"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

- Ephesians 2:8-10

---JS1234 on 9/7/19




---john9346 on 9/14/19


john9346:

The problem with Calvinistic predestination is this:
God created us.
God created laws.
These laws are SO difficult that NOBODY is capable of obeying them.
Therefore, God has CREATED US TO FAIL.

God condemns all who fail to everlasting torement in hell.
God only saves those that he chooses.
God only chooses a small number. It's his choice, not ours.

Therefore, God created BILLIONS of people whose SOLE PURPOSE is to burn in hell forever.
If any parent told his kids, "Here's a 50 foot wall. If you can't jump it, I'm doing to torture you to death", we would call that cruel, sadistic, and evil, yet it's somehow OK for God?
---StrongAxe on 9/14/19


John9346, God has said that it is his will everyone be saved. 1st Timothy 2:4. You are saying the Apostle Paul was wrong to write that. It is a very cruel, Calvinist God that you believe in. I hope you will be able to change your mind about that someday. God be with you.
---JS1234 on 9/13/19


js1234 said, "Are people who do not become Christians predestined to hell, or do they just go there by default?"
Yes, those who are in hell are reprobates they are people who God for his own sovereign purpose have chosen to leave in their sins they are under God's Just Condemnation.
---john9346 on 9/13/19


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Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This verse SHOULD answer questions about free will and universalism. Those who have heard the truth and reject it, and use their FREE WILL TO SIN, after hearing the truth , there not only is no more sacrifice for sin for them, but no second chances either. It's appointed for man to die ONCE and then the judgement...the second death meaning ...well it doesn't mean a second change for LIFE EVERLASTING. Those who teach such things ARE enemies of the cross.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/19


It's been interesting chatting with you guys. I may be back one of these days. Have a good rest of the year. Blessings to all of you!
---JS1234 on 8/1/19


JS1234, I have a friend who makes the same statements.....once said when her dishes in the Dishwasher didn't get clean...." IF GOD HAD WANTED THEM TO GET CLEAN, THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN CLEAN" . She was serious too.

I personally don't think God is also in control of our dishwashers ....

And scripture speaks of WILLFUL IGNORANCE, and WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE.

Address these verses. Running away from a discussion here, means maybe you are to sensitive to be challenged , not only here but everywhere. It's easy to blame others for running away.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/19


I have often sought an answer to this question myself. In the book of Revelation the books are opened at the great white judgment throne and whose name is not found therein goes swimming in the lake of fire. However, this judgment is not for the Christian but for others. In that case, there must be some names in that Revelation book that permits some to be saved.
---riolion on 8/1/19


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JS1234, also I don't know who is and isn't saved, and never have said I did. So when you post to me, you always throw in your little twists to make yourself look the victim, and then blame God for all your shortcomings, and blame others for this or that.

You have a peculiar obsession with predestination and free will, but seem to refuse to search the scriptures to see what God says on the subject , but rather rely on mans personal beliefs. Then say, well it's Gods fault that I don't read the Bible to search for the answer.

Must be nice to dump all on God ...but one day, He will dump all that back on you.
---kat453 on 8/1/19


Kathr, if I don't have a clue, then it's God's will that I don't have a clue. He is running the show. I'm glad you are saved and I'm glad you know who isn't saved. It's probably time for me to move on and do something else besides post here. Peace and blessings to you.
---JS1234 on 8/1/19


JS1234, it's very sad you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Your last ststement Sounds like some Confucius says .....

But God never asked us to prove anything by faith, He only asked us to BELIEVE HIM which is faith. Not all men have faith, and unfortunately for those...there is no excuse, because God has given all men a measure of faith..whether you believe it or not.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/19


Kathr, I can't prove anything that rests on faith. If we could prove things that rest on faith, we would no longer need faith.
---JS1234 on 7/31/19


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\\His light lighteth every man that cometh into the world." That's future tense, \\

No, michael e, that's PRESENT tense.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/26/19


JS 1234, so by your own question above you can't PROVE universalism, as you say ITS NOT CLEAR about those who do not become Christians .

No one is predestined for heaven or hell.

I think because you don't understand predestination, you can't understand the very basics about salvation. And if that's the case, you shouldn't take the opposite view of a false doctrine just to end up with another false doctrine just to combat the first. AND universalism is not the opposite of Calvinism to begin with. Nice try, but it doesn't work that way.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/19


John 1:7" The Word says that when Christ came into the world, "His light lighteth every man that cometh into the world." That's future tense, They somehow received the Light.
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath (past tense) appeared to all men." (Not a few)
Rom 1:18,19a "For the wrath of God..." (we're not under the wrath of God) is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them..."
`Manifest' is a multi-type term. There isn't just one little segment of knowledge, they have a whole bunch, A complete unveiling of knowledge.
---michael_e on 7/23/19


So the answer is NO, no one was predestined to be saved or lost. The CHURCH was predestined, a mystery kept secret, but now revealed. Salvation was never a mystery kept secret. Jesus death and resurrection was never a mystery kept secret. Hell was never a mystery kept secret, THE CHURCH was/ is that Mystery kept secret, now revealed. The CHURCH, a whole NEW CREATURE, is the BOC, HIS BODY, baptized into His death, and raised up together with Him, joint heirs with Christ...never ever promised to earthly Israel.

WE HAVE A HIGH CALLING. Right here, right now, being conformed to His image right now, through the fellowship of His sufferings.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/19


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Here are two supporting scriptures for Romans 8:29

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:24-27 show the CHURCH as that MYSTERY kept secret. Salvation itself was never a secret.

Hebrews 12:23

1)To the general assembly ...aka the Angels

2)and church of the firstborn, (the BOC) **see Colossians 1:18 **which are written in heaven,

3) and to God the Judge of all,

4) and to the spirits of just men made perfect, aka OT SAVED

AND means in addition to As we see from The verses above and not just another name for.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/19


Romans 8:29 -......
---RichardC on 7/20/19

Now to truly understand this verse, one needs to understand what THE FIRSTBORN means. Jesus was not the FIRST to be Born Again. It means PREEMINENCE ...surpassing all other, having a place of superiority . which is what the CALLING OUT OF THE CHURCH, as we IN CHRIST, His Church, not earthly Israel will have a place surpassing all other ..and will share in His Glory, as joint heirs with Christ. it has nothing to do with salvation vs the lost, but that the CHURCH has a HIGHER CALLING in this dispensation of the Gospel.
Many will be saved from Genesis to Rev, but will not have this HIGHER CALLING. This my friends IS THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE "MYSTERY" .
---kathr4453 on 7/22/19


Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none that seeketh after God

Romans 3:11 - There is none that understandeth , there is none seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable there is none that doeth good, no not one.

( I think the Question should be, why save anybody ? )
---RichardC on 7/21/19


JS1234: Why would God create people just to send them to hell?//

He doesn't.

Only men are heartless and love to torture each other.

God loves us and His love for us is why He created us.

Every person in hell choose to go to hell. They chose not to follow God on earth and refused His Mercy at His death.

Anyone who truly seeks His Mercy will obtain His Mercy. Don't forget the good Thief
---Nicole_Lacey on 7/21/19


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Romans 8:27 - And he that searches the hearts Knoweth what is the mind of the spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:28 - And he know that all things work together for the good to them that love God. To them that are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he did predestinate to be conform to the image of his Son , that might be the firstborn among many brethren.
---RichardC on 7/20/19


\\God predestined us, That is His Body, aka "THE CHURCH", to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ . \\

This is what the Orthodox Church calls THEOSIS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/19


God predestined us, That is His Body, aka "THE CHURCH", to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ . This is our sanctification not our initial salvation or justification. Please read the verses carefully. Ephesians more fully explain He will present to Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle Ephesians 5:27. But to fully understand you need to understand the CHURCH is not earthly Israel, but a whole NEW CREATURE. All of Ephesians explains, but you have to be heavenly minded to understand.
---kathr4453 on 7/19/19


Christianity is Just a religion But what determines our final destination is our Relationship with Jesus Christ.It doesn't matter how long we have walked with Christ but How deep we are in Christ.John 10:27 How deep are you in Christ? Do you know His Voice?Do you obey Him?
---Tez6548 on 7/18/19


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Why would God create people just to send them to hell?
---JS1234 on 7/18/19


There are two resurrections: the first at the soon to return of Jesus where the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. The second resurrection is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ where all the other dead from all of history shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works some to everlasting life, some to everlasting death. Blessed are the ones who rise in the first resurrection.

There are people who do God's will not knowing it's God's will.
---Steveng on 7/18/19


Romans 2 speaks of those who follow GOD unaware. How they will be saved.

Those who believe in predestination. Do teach that the majority are predestined to go to hell.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/18/19


StevenG, I'm quite sure that the vast majority of mankind has died without ever having the "opportunity."
---JS1234 on 7/18/19


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The term "robot" was a metaphor.

God is looking for people having true love from their hearts to populate his coming kingdom. He is looking for people who wants to follow him. To repent on their decision.

JS1234 wrote: "If God is God, he is smart enough to get everybody saved if he wants to..."

All throughout history, God has given man many opportunities to bring man to him, but man has rejected God.
---Steveng on 7/17/19


It all goes back to Genesis 1-3. Especially the history of Cain and Abel. Abel presented to God a more acceptable offering ...BLOOD,where God declared Abel RIGHTEOUS, Hebrews 11, giving Cain a second chance to do what God required, yet Cain out of his own FREE CHOICE chose not to obey, choosing hell for himself. GOD calling Cain's offering EVIL.

No wonder JS1234 you didn't understand OR CHOSE to not believe the reason of God rejecting Cain's offering...or refusing to engage in any discussion about Leviticus 3 or Hebrews. SEE YOU MADE A CHOICE TOO.

It now all makes sense.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/19


StevenG, I don't know where you got the idea of robots from. If God is God, he is smart enough to get everybody saved if he wants to, despite their having free will.

But then again, maybe he isn't so smart. You tell me.
---JS1234 on 7/17/19


JS1234 wrote: "God always get what he wants?"

Sure, if God created robots. Humans are not robots. As I said God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9

God is choosing people who do God's will, whether they believe in Jesus or not, to help populated God's new kingdom. They must choose from the heart whether to repent or not. It's up to the individual's choosing. God gave mankind many opportunities in history to repent. God has suffered long enough and by the way the world is heading it won't be too much longer when God will intervene by bringing his son back.
---Steveng on 7/17/19


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StevenG, I would think that if God wanted everybody to be saved, everybody would be saved. After all, doesn't God always get what he wants? Or can human free will trump God's will?
---JS1234 on 7/16/19


No one is pre-destined to go to hell. God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Man has free will and decides himself if he goes to heaven or hell. Many, including those who don't know Christ or God, will have eternal life who will be judged from the book of life - according to their works.

The bible tells of two resurrections: one for the christians and one for all others.
---Steveng on 7/16/19


No where in scripture does it say that God predestines an individual to Hell.
Multiple scriptures state that God predestines individuals for heaven.
Those who go to hell deserve hell.
We would all go to hell if we were not predestined to salvation and heaven by God.
---trey on 7/16/19


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