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Salvation By Our Works

ORTHODOX believe Salvation is achieved by performing 7 Sacraments during one's lifetime, called 'Channels' in which one receive God's Grace.

Is this Biblical salvation?

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Salvation Bible Quiz
 ---kathr4453 on 8/9/19
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//LUKE 16:20-26// - kathr45666

Kathr continues to promote satanic "non-death", immortal soul dogma. Satan first concocted the immortal soul dogma when he lyingly told Eve "you will not die"- Ge.3:4.

Kathr666 continues spreading Satan's lies by mis-interpreting Jesus at Luke 16:20-26. But Jesus believed what was taught at Ezekiel 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it will die".

At Luke 16:20-26 Jesus is using hyperbole. The story of the Rich man & Lazarus is a parable designed to teach a change of position for who the Rich man represented, and who Lazarus represented. Not the immortal soul dogma!

Kathr666 seeks to twist Jesus' words to promote satanic "non-death" dogma.
---David8318 on 8/27/19

//Jesus too has a soul//- kathr4453

No. Jesus WAS a soul.

Which is why Jesus could die for sinners and thus become our repurchaser. But this Bible teaching is alien to kathr666 because kathr666 teaches the satanic lie that humans "have" an immortal soul. kathr666 will have us believe we are not in need of a redeemer because the soul is immortal. It survives death. This is the satanic "non-death" doctrine started by Satan in Eden and perpetuated by kathr666 and her pagan co-horts (Gen.3:4).

As a soul, Jesus could die and did die for sinful humans. But kathr666 also believes the anti-Christ dogma that Jesus cannot die because he is the 'eternal God' who cannot die.

No salvation in kathr666 dogma.
---David8318 on 8/27/19

//in Christ those who believe will be made alive together with Christ...// kathr6664453

kathr666 disbelieves the Bible at Ezekiel 18:4 because kathr666 believes the pagan teaching of immortal soul. Kathr666 cannot get her head around Eze.18:4 that says "the soul that sinneth, it will die"-(KJV).

Kathr666 is a loyal mouthpiece for the satanic "non-death" doctrine. Satan said to Eve... "You certainly will not die"- Gen.3. Kathr4466653 perpetuates this satanic "non-death" doctrine, spouting anti-Christ immortal soul rubbish.

Yes, those who believe will be made alive in Christ. But you have to be dead first to be made alive! Kathr666 twisted nonsense fails to understand this!
---David8318 on 8/26/19

Well Thanks David, but not only have I entered through the gate, narrow as it was, but i'm also IN CHRIST , so you don't have to worry about me. I know who and what I believe, and what church I go to now has NOTHING to do with it. My faith is not in a church, pastor or denomonation, but in Christ alone. And it's not your JOB to create doubt when one already had assurance. Paul warns us that those like you are actually the enemy of the Cross....dogs, the concussion etc...the pharisees. So thanks, but NO THANKS. Your hitting on the wrong person here. I'm not interested in your doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 8/23/19

Also David you seem to follow in the very steps you accuse JS of doing. Again, only God knows the heart of JS, not you. To again presume to know another's motives is called the sin of presumptuousness. So arrogant. And your obsessions with others is disturbing.
---kat453 on 8/23/19

If you have a denomination, can you tell me what it is? That way I wont wrongly assume.

JS created a doctrine after his very public humiliation, a doctrine which could explain why he was defeated by sin, though claiming to have victory over sin. I believe he is honestly still seeking for the truth, but he will not find it, because he seeks it by using himself as an example of righteousness, rather than Jesus Christ.

Though I feel there are a great many foolish doctrines, I do not see those who follow them as fools. I see them merely as folks on the wrong path.
I am not a cradle to grave teacher. My job is to merely to direct folks to the gate, which leads to the path, and from there, the Holy Spirit will guide them.
---David on 8/23/19

..........Spurgeon renounced the doctrine and yet the Baptist church, still parades around his G-R-E-A-T name.

---David on 8/22/19

I find it interesting that David seems to know what goes on in every Baptist Church, and also is so totally absorbed in JS. I've been in several Baptist Churches through out my life and NEVER once heard CS name even mentioned. Never saw that parade. Actually the Calvinist Baptist's have now disowned him because he wasn't Calvin enough. And David fails to see not all Baptist's are the same. There are many different KINDS of Baptist churches...yes, some even keeping Saturday Sabbath.

Did David LIE? If not, please direct me to any information CS renounced his doctrine..WHATEVER THAT MEANS.
---kathr4453 on 8/23/19

I can't seem to find anywhere that CS denounced his belief in the Cross. He may however have denounced his Calvin beliefs, as I don't hold to those beliefs myself. My understanding is even Calvin denounced his doctrine of the 5-6 point Of Calvinism . Funny, when you are on your death bed and teach NO ONE KNOWS BUT GOD WHO THE ELECT ARE....and then face that doctrine wondering if you are or aren't one of the could be unnerving. I however have complete assurance of my salvation. I simply believe in the promises of God, and again I KNOW that I am saved. Even John in 1 st John says YOU CAN KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
---kathr4453 on 8/22/19

David, I don't know how JS teaches. All I know is how Paul teaches with the help of the Holy Spirit. I just showed you others did do teach Christ Crucified. I do believe Galatians 2:20-21 Romans 6, Philippians3 just for starters is very clear teaching and does not need any middle man to reinterpret.
---kathr4453 on 8/22/19

Also David ...the power of the Cross is something you experience after you are saved, and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit as we obey. You can't make it
Happen, but it is what happens as we grow in the Grace and knowledge of Him. It's only available to those saved by Grace through faith. That mY be why you don't See that truth. Those still under the law will never know these truths in realty.
---kat453 on 8/22/19

David concerning CS, I don't know anything about that. But leaving a denomination is not the same as leaving your own faith behind. Just you saying that again shows a lack of understanding. And you assume and presume much. I already said I don't know JS or what he teaches....did you fail to see that? And WHY? It shows you do not read others posts and why I find it a waste of my time answering you.
---kath4453 on 8/22/19

Kathryn, did you know Charles Spurgeon, he left the Baptist Church some years before his death? My hope is, as with you, it was because he discovered the Truth. Its interesting though, how Spurgeon renounced the doctrine and yet the Baptist church, still parades around his G-R-E-A-T name.

I absolutely believe in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I just dont believe Jimmy Swaggart teaches it for the same reason as Paul. What does the preaching of the cross mean to you? Is it the same way Jimmy Swaggart teaches it, or do you believe it to mean something else?

BTW, I feel bad for Jimmy. He seeks the Truth, but he relies to much on himself for understanding.
---David on 8/22/19

The verses below are very revealing how others respond. To the Jews , it was a stumbling Romans 10 clearly show. Many today who are not even Jews have fallen on the same stumbling block. The stumbling block is THE CROSS...CHRIST CRUCIFIED. Paul not stumbling gave his personal testimony in Philippians 3...

To the Greeks aka Gentiles, Foolishness. And again David seems to fit into both categories as he himself 1) thinks he's a Jew, 2) continually shows he thinks CHRIST CRUCIFIED is foolishness. 3) And continually argues with me concerning the Cross. But Paul says clearly the preaching of the Cross to those who reject it are the ones perishing. I happen to believe Paul here. I KNOW ITS THE POWER OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 8/22/19

David Paul brings forth the Christ crucified doctrine.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Most churches teach this. Swaggart is not a good example of a Christian. He is more concerned with money then the Gospel.

Salvation is by Grace.

Read Ephesians 2 and Romans 6.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/22/19

So David, is your issue with Paul?

1Cor 1:23 For we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
---kathr4453 on 8/21/19

That's interesting David. So I take it you don't believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ AKA Christ Crucified. I've gathered that since you only believe in Christ before the Cross. I guess you've never heard of Charles Spurgeon? Just to name one. But I will concur that since Osteen and the such have taken over the airways of TV, ( seeing that may be your only contact with the outside world) sad.... You will only hear the Gospel of Christ Crucified in grounded Gospel preaching churches. It also appears your church does not preach Christ Crucified. Paul said God forbid I preach anything but Christ Crucified.
---kathr4453 on 8/21/19

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If we are new creatures in Christ, I hope it will be displayed in our character.---JS1234

If you want to discuss a subject with Kathryn, a subject for which you might disagree, prepare yourself for her name calling. Its just her way, a way we have all gotten use to.

Jimmy Swaggart and his disciples are the only ones I have ever heard, teach the Christ Crucified doctrine. And, like you, they believe Paul brought forth the True doctrine of Salvation, a few years after Jesus ascended into Heaven, a doctrine which seemingly nullified the Gospel of Christ.
---David on 8/21/19

Ok now maybe we can get back to the blog question.

The only Grace I see in scripture is not given by men, but comes from God alone. No one is JUSTIFIED by any WORKS. And Justification is something God alone does. We are justified by our faith in what Christ has done. Justification is also not a process. Now GROWING in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus is a process, but GROWING UP INTO the fullness ans stature of Christ Ephesians 4, again cannot be attained by any works of the flesh or works of the law.
---kathr4453 on 8/21/19

I answered your question David, I'm not a follower of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries. I don't know what he teaches, so I can't be a follower of him. What makes you think anyone is his follower? I've never stated his name here once....good or bad. Again, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a 4th grader. Grow up David. When you mature ...let us know. We may enjoy debating with you then. BUT until then , as long as you applying your own twisted whatever to it ...NO. Your weird ....and annoying.

But this is for sure what you are saying is that YOU follow man. And because YOU DO, your thinking is everyone else must too. WRONG! Your thinking is STRANGE.
---kathr4453 on 8/20/19

If we are new creatures in Christ, I hope it will be displayed in our character.
---JS1234 on 8/20/19

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Ok so all the questions I've asked that David refuses to answer, hummm, what shall we make of that....lets see....does it prove you like to dress in woman's clothing? Wear lipstick? Abuse animals?

Two can play that game David. But I answered your question..I DONT FOLLOW MEN, and it appears Jimmy Swaggart is a man...correct? So is it a low IQ that doesn't understand that, or just having fun hurrassing others on line here? Or both....?
---kat453 on 8/20/19

Your refusal to answer the question, only confirmed what I said. You are a follower of Jimmy Swaggart ministries.
---David on 8/20/19

David, I rebuke YOU. why don't you understand that?

The Gospel of Salvation is clearly stated in scripture. How we become a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST is clearly stated in scripture. Romans 6.....old things pass away all things become NEW. Put on the NEW MAN created in righteousness and holiness....YOU DAVID REJECT scripture and follow the teachings of man.

Why are you so daft in this area? Do you think somehow you are going to TRICK ME? What a putz!
---kathr4453 on 8/20/19

And you seem to forget I've posted here for nearly 16 years and those who know me KNOW I don't follow Jimmy Swaggart.---kathr4453

So you rebuke Jimmy Swaggarts salvation message?
---David on 8/20/19

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LUKE 16:20-26 a must read. Jesus own words would NEVER DECEIVE or make up a lie for any reason. Doing so would show He was a sinner. SDA and JW both accuse GOD of lying, insulting the Holy Spirit, could be the unforgivable sin.


A beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried,

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.

It was not their physical bodies here but their souls.
---kathr4453 on 8/20/19

Psalms 16: 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

We know by David8316 that he believes Michael is Jesus, also twisting Hebrews 1....YET we know Angels don't have souls. Nor do animals or plants. Angels are created spirit beings. They have no blood either. And no hope of redemption since God sent His only begotten Son to SAVE "SOULS" aka MAN, FROM DEATH. And Hebrews as well as Timothy say the only mediator between God and man IS THE MAN CHRIST JESUS, not the archangel Michael....who is STILL named MICHAEL.,totally debunking David's bazaar twist of Hebrews 1 where he thinks God IS asking one of His angels to sit at His right hand.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/19

David, are you having fun throwing stupid comments here? Who said I follow Jimmy Swaggart? Why do you lower yourself to making stuff up. You lose all credibility here when you do so.

And you seem to forget I've posted here for nearly 16 years and those who know me KNOW I don't follow Jimmy Swaggart. But nice try David. Nice trying to AGAIN make a fool of yourself. You don't need to keep won the fool of the month club . Try again for the September fool of the month club. Is this how your WORKS of salvation work David, LYING and making stuff up? That's WHY I can't take anything you say or teach seriously.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/19

David8316, I understand because you don't understand scripture that you go off on some crazed twisted fit. All these bazaar accusations against me only reveal how bazaar your own understanding is.

Death is separation from God as well, and does not mean annihilation. In Adam all Christ those who believe will be made alive together with Christ...Ephesians 2:7-10. Parish vs eternal life....John 3:16.

David, Jesus physical body died, but He said in the Psalms prophecied....THOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL.

Jesus too has a soul. His soul was not EXTINQUISHED and then recreated.. which is YOUR definition of death...not scriptures definition.
---kath4453 on 8/19/19

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I can't believe how "the David's" are here making a fool of themselves ...but hay, .keep up the foolishness for others to see. No one has to even debate you....your "self impeaching" comments are all that's needed here.
---kat453 on 8/19/19

Yea David, and I can't believe you have made Roger Rabbit your God ....totally bazaar! But it makes sense....your cartoon comments now all make sense.
---kath453 on 8/19/19

I just find it unbelievable, how you, who make the teachings of Jimmy Swaggart your foundation, think people who use the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as their foundation, are the ones who are in a cult.
---David on 8/19/19

//will never experience having his soul saved from death// - katr4453.

But Kathr4453 doesn't believe the soul needs to be saved. Kathr believes the pagan Greek teaching of the immortal soul. Kathr believes the soul survives death and lives on in heaven or hell.

Kathr4453 immortal soul teaching is pagan heresy.

Kathr also denies Christ as our saviour because kathr teaches Jesus is the 'eternal God' who cannot die. Kathr doesn't believe Jesus was a created being capable of dying on our behalf and being resurrected after 3 days.

Kathr4453 denies the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ because kathr teaches a false pagan heresy- a false "Jesus" who cannot die.
---David8318 on 8/19/19

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John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13 show Enoch, Elijah did not go to heaven, at least not before Jesus died and rose again. NO ONE DID.

Accusing me of not believing Jesus died and rose again.....ARE YOU ON CRACK? Or did you stab yourself with a knife meant for another? How can one believe they died and rose up with Christ...ROMANS 6 If they don't believe Jesus died and rose again? HOW can one identify with Jesus in death and resurrection life, OR totally believe in Galatians 2:20-21 if they don't believe Jesus died and rose again? I know you keep saying that, but my posts for the last 16 years PROVE YOU A LIAR.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/19

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4 also say the word of God is sharper than a two edge sword.

I wouldn't call it a knife.
---kath4453 on 8/19/19

When Christians talk, there are knives in their speech.
---JS1234 on 8/18/19

//Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death// - kathr4453.

Further proof kathr4453 denies the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Kathr erroneously believes Enoch was taken or transferred by God to heaven. Where does Hebrews say that!?

Kathr4453 speaks in opposition to Jesus' statement at John 3:13,

"No man hath ascended up to heaven..."- Jo.3:13 (KJV)

One for kathr4453 to munch on.

So contrary to kathr pagan beliefs, the Bible states Jesus was the first man to ascend to heaven (Jo.3:13, 1Cor.15:23). Kathr does not believe Jesus was the first because kathr does not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
---David8318 on 8/18/19

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David the clear distinction between your definition of a CULT , and a Christian is a Christian has a personal relationship with the Lord. Cults don't ....yet you somehow want to legitimize the CULT. That's the difference between your beliefs and mine.
---kathr4453 on 8/18/19

By definition, I guess you are right about people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, being in a cult. But isnt that the point of Christianity, making Jesus the leader of your cult?

CULT- a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
---David on 8/18/19

//Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps"// - kathr4453.

And where does the Bible say "soul sleep"? No where of course. I'll keep quoting Ezekiel 18:4 at kathr all day long. Kathr is obviously frightened of the truth.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"- Eze.18:4 (KJV). Which part of this verse does kathr4453 not understand?

James understood the soul dies because the verse kathr quotes from James (5:20) teaches that if a soul is not saved, then the soul suffers "death", not sleep! - Js.5:20.

Given kathr has her head stuck in pagan Greek immortal soul philosophy, it's not surprising she has no handle on Bible truth.
---David8318 on 8/18/19

Sorry David, the only rediculous statement was your original one. Like I said, many CULTS say they are followers of Jesus. Doesn't make them Christian.
---kathr4453 on 8/18/19

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As you can see...Both our statements are ridiculous.
---David on 8/17/19

OH wow, I bet he also watched FOX NEWS, .... Maybe he also watched the PBS News hour too.

However Documentaries can be shown by any one anywhere. The Documentary on the Mayo Clinic shown on Netflix and other feeds was awesome. Also the Doc on the Roosevelt family was awesome too, carried by PBS, HBO, NETFLIX, AMAZON ....and so many more.

Many people don't believe in God simply because of the PTL CLUB and CBN on television.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/19

David, after watching THE FAMILY on Netflix, I'm a little cautious of anyone who says they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. So do they, and they are a cult.---kathr4453

I am a little cautious of anyone who watches Netflix. Stephen Paddock, the guy who killed 59 people in Las Vegas, watched Netflix too, and he was a Killer.
---David on 8/17/19

David, after watching THE FAMILY on Netflix, I'm a little cautious of anyone who says they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. So do they, and they are a cult. They even made their own bible called JESUS . interestingly enough all genetic Christian cults say they follow the teachings of Jesus. So did Thomas Jefferson, who also created the Jefferson Bible picking and choosing what verses in the 4 gospels to use.

It also appears David you follow the teachings of Jesus before He died and Rose again, which many of those teachings are still OT, and some are for the 1000 year reign like Matthew.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/19

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Soul sleep?...again a new one one me. Never had a discussion with anyone on this. I think you, understandably, get me confused with the other David.

Kathryn, I dont promote any religion. I simply follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and would recommend you to do the same. There are a few things about your religion I agree with too. You say Jesus Christ is the Son of God, with this I agree, but that doesnt make me a follower of Jimmy Swaggart does it?
---David on 8/16/19

James 5: 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

So bazaar David 8313 or whatever accuses James of Hellenic or pagan whatever teachings.

Too bad too that David8313 will never experience having his soul saved from death, as long as he holds to the false teachings of the JW's.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/19

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists hold to this doctrine as do most conditionalists (those who say that the wicked are judged and don't exist anymore). But the Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilation. This means that after death a person ceases to exist. At the future resurrection, they maintain that the soul is made again. Basically, it is a re-creation of the individual. The Seventh-day Adventists teach at the soul is simply inert and resides in the memory of God.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/19

So Kathr4453 is far from the truth when trying to understand salvation. Kathr doesn't believe salvation is through Jesus Christ because kathr believes the soul survives death and therefore does not need saving. LIES from kathr4453's CULT.
---David8318 on 8/15/19

Well again David8318 is off the wall in his assessment of what I believe, and must be brain damaged not understanding salvation is ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, in our identification with Him in death and resurrection life. You simply can't come THROUGH JESUS ANY OTHER WAY....Hebrews 10, Romans 6.... I can't stress enough, ....shows The David's here simply do not understand scripture at all by making such a MORONIC statement ...and a FALSE one at that. So pathetic.
---kath453 on 8/15/19

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But kathr4453 doesn't believe Jesus came to save us from death because kathr believes the soul doesn't die. The soul either ends up in "hell" or heaven. Kathr believes in the un-Biblical Hellenic philosophy of the immortality of the human soul. Yes I know about your pagan CULT kathr4453.

Kathr Hellenic teachings lead her to believe Jesus Christ didn't die for us anyway because Kathr believes Jesus is the 'eternal God' who cannot die. Kathr doesn't believe Jesus actually died and was dead 3 days and was resurrected after 3 days- Mt.12:40.

There is no salvation in kathr4453 pagan CULT dogma!
---David8318 on 8/15/19

//belief in soul steep [sleep]//- kathr4453.

Yet again kathr is completely bemused by clear scriptural teaching. I stated in my previous post, JW's believe what the Bible teaches. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV).

Thus, JW's do not believe in "soul sleep" as kathr terms it. Far from it. The soul that sins "DIES". That's what scripture states. And it's 'through one man that death spread to all men'- Ro.5:12.

So Kathr4453 is far from the truth when trying to understand salvation. Kathr doesn't believe salvation is through Jesus Christ because kathr believes the soul survives death and therefore does not need saving. LIES from kathr4453's CULT.
---David8318 on 8/15/19

Well David, it's because of your evasiveness I believed you were Mormon based on your defense of the JWs belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel . BUT NOW, I've eked out of you ( through intense debate) your belief in soul steep, that only SDA and JW believe. I never knew your belief that a Christians belief in eternal life the moment we see saved is considered a CULT to you. Your rejection of Hebrews, again all true cults reject. You say you're not Protestant or Catholic...JW's don't consider themselves either. So my apologies, your not Mormon, your JW. Mormons don't believe in soul sleep.

When asked what church or group you are afiliated with, you were always very evasive.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/19

Also David, You have again a peculiar view that without the law, one can live a lawless life. WRONG. Firstly, you have recklessly made false accusations. We don't reject the law David, we just don't use it the way you do. We use it according to scripture, not according to David.

It's your ignorant attacks here that need to stop. Romans 7... Begin with we who are Jewish have died to the law so we can be married to another...CHRIST. You love the end of Romans need to start in the beginning, and end with the last verse...WHO will deliver me from the body of this death...I THANK GOD JESUS DID...YEA...PRAISE there is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION TO THOSE IN CHRIST. So stop comdemning those in Christ David.
---kat453 on 8/15/19

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Ok so only two believe in soul sleep, JW'S AND SDA'S. So now we're narrowing down exactly what David is. I also looked up JW BELIEFS and David seems to fall into the JW'S 100%.

So with that , his anger and outbursts when presented the Gospel of the Grace of God is spoken and shown to him, responds exactly as CULTS act ...a well known fact.

David, sweety, we simply do not share the same faith. But look what it took for you to finally be truthful about your beliefs. Soul sleep is heresy.

here's one to munch on.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, ...
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Yes and PRAISE JESUS, JESUS CAME TO SAVE OUR SOULS FROM DEATH, and as John says in 1st John, we know we have passed from death to life.....

Yes JW's do believe they are sinless. One of my brothers years ago was seduced by the JW's while in the Army. We had many rounds of talks about that one. Praise God he came out of it.

Hummm, David seems awfully sensitive about the JW's.....hummmmm, also months ago defending their belief Jesus is Michael the Archangel ......hummmmm. Are you JW David? No wonder he rejects Hebrews.

So now, Hebrews 12:22-24 say as we speak that the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT are in Heaven with God. So again, David rejects Hebrews and therefore rejects sound doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

More lies?
I have told you on multiple occasions I am not a Mormon, and yet, you still wave your finger in that direction. Mariology....? Had to look that one up. LOL

You say you love the Lord, and yet you tell soooo....many lies. Jesus said those who love him keep his commandments. Do your lies in some way show your love for the Lord? If so, Where in the Bible does Jesus command us to lie?
---David on 8/14/19

Seeing David can't one said JW's believe they were born sinless. So the verses you posted don't apply here. Try again David.

Salvation Only For Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower teaches that Jehovah's Witnesses alone will survive Armageddon. This is because only they have Gods backing, being the sole group that worship the true God, Jehovah.

It's all wrapped up in the above statement. The believe because they are JW'S...BECAUSE THEY ARE SINLESS ONCE THEY JOIN THE JW'S.
---kath453 on 8/14/19

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Also note in David's outbursts he's condemning Cluny 's faith as a cult. They don't believe the soul is extinguished when the physical body dies. JW'S AND SDA DO. it's heresy.

So I'll have to research if the Mormons believe as David's beliefs with JW's and SDA.

But it wasn't until now that David gave away MORE of his beliefs he's been so evasive about. And this explains his rejection of Hebrews and Romans 6. The NEW CREATURE WILL NEVER DIE SPIRITUALLY...that's why it's called ETERNAL LIFE. Also read Hebrews 2 ....exposes David's lie from hell.
---kath4453 on 8/14/19

//JW's who say they are sinless//- kathr4453.

Appears kathr4453 pulls statements out of thin air like the one above, not because they have any measure of truth, but more likely because in her mind it sounds good.

What reference does kathr site to show JW's believe they are "sinless"?

JW's understand the truth of the statement at Ezekiel 18:4 which states, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (KJV). Also Ro.5:12 states, 'death spread to all men because they had all sinned'.

It is kathr4453's CULT who believe they are sinless because they teach the soul doesn't die at death, but rather lives on after death. Kathr4453 CULT teaches lies in opposition to the clear statement at Eze.18:4.
---David8318 on 8/14/19

Also David, this is what Cluny said about the QUESTION ( see below) ..THAT TRUTH, is not the same as "the" truth. One day when you learn to read, and properly understand even the simpler things written, you may one day actually not distort what the Word of God says either. Since I don't see you defending the sacraments here, you distorted Cluny 's comment for the purpose of YOUR personal assault. Such a Trumpian childish behavior disorder. REPENT David...the sin in your MEMBERS is showing. It's ugly ugly.

That isn't what Orthodox teach.

But I've noticed that truth matters little to kathr.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/19
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

\\Mariology is a LIE.\\

Here's a statement from Mariology:

Mary virginally conceived and bore a son Who is God and man in one person.

Is this a lie, kathr?

Mariology can be understood only in the context of Christology. In fact, the latter is part of the former.

If Mariology is a lie, then Christology is, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/19

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Let's take Adam and Eve. for those who believe scripture,Romans 5 say between Adam and Moses there was no LAW, yet in Adam all sin, from the very first act of disobedience towards God sin entered the world through ADAM, not the Law of Moses. David misrepresents this ALL THE TIME.

NOW, those IN CHRIST who have died to sin Romans 6 surrendering their MEMBERS TO GOD ALIVE FROM THE DEAD. who's MEMBERS NOW are serving not sin but righteousness and holiness are no longer under Gods condemnation, yet find themselves under David's condemnation YIKES! And Because David has never obeyed Romans 6 himself proves he cannot witness to its truth, and makes up LIES STILL HAS SIN IN HIS MEMBERS, and always will UNTIL HE OBEYS ROMANS 6
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Well let's get into LIES. Mariology is a LIE. Seems David has never addressed these lies. So what we have here is again a hypocrite.....personally deciding which lies are ok not to fuss with and which lies are not ok. Again playing God ...all puffed up in his own imagination playing judge and juror. Never seeing the oak tree in their own eye, proud to be that self righteous Pharisee.

And then there is the lie of earning your way to salvation, they call a process. Sounds more like what the Hindu believe...or YES Mormons too.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

But David does make a point about Protestants, ...Presbyterian's who technically fit the description of those who opposed Catholicism re John Calvin....are Protestant's as is Donald Trump, where they believe they are Gods ELECT has never repented, doesn't see himself as a sinner... And we do see Trump perfectly described in Davis's assessment believing they are the elect, can do no wrong, or even if they did...God will fix it. The hypocricy here is David won't condemn Trump.

But I don't believe all Protestants hold to that form of doctrine. So again, David's assessment is made out of ignorance, or worse...personal attacks having respect of persons.
---kat453 on 8/14/19

I know Mormons don't consider themselves Protestants or Catholic. May be the same for JW's too. Yep, those squeaky clean WHITE MORMONS do have a selfrighteous persona, yet hate the book of Hebrews and all the truths in it. But hay....they are right in their own eyes....and then we have the JW's who say they are sinless, another squeaky clean CULT, trafficking in the Gospel, yet never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But one day, standing before the Lord, showing off their squeaky clean self righteousness will be crushed like a bug because they never submitted to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST... Philippians 3 says it all. They just don't get it....

---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

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But I've noticed that truth matters little to kathr.---Cluny

This is the way of many Protestant followers. As you well know, they believe they are exempt from the morals,.... which even the Atheist keeps.

How can someone lie, when they are not under Gods Law? Sin is the transgression of Gods Law, and a lie, is the name of a transgression. As Paul taught, without Law there can be no transgression.

I live in the south...Bible Belt, moved here from California. And when I got here, I noticed I had to be on guard when I did business with a Protestants, because their doctrine allows them to cheat you.

Fortunately these establishments are usually marked with religious fish symbol.
---David on 8/14/19

Ok so let's go with invented. So Jesus invented salvation by Grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. So THIS invention does not need the other inventions of anything else to be saved. I don't need to believe in the invention of say a copy machine to believe my washing machine will work and get my cloths clean.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Please show a verse stating Jesus INVENTED ....

Did Jesus invent salvation too?
---kathr4453 on 8/12/19

\\The word SACRAMENTS is not in scripture nor any reference that Jesus INVENTED sacraments.\\

The word "Bible" is not in the scripture, either.

And Jesus invented CHRISTIAN baptism and the Eucharist or Lord's Supper.

Or does your Reversed Version have the passages about this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/19

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Monk,,my conversation was with David, not with you. So please don't worry about my conversation with David. Because unless you go back MONTHs, you have taken the conversation out of context, throwing a wrench in by changing its conversation to something else, like Cluny was doing over and over....

The word SACRAMENTS is not in scripture nor any reference that Jesus INVENTED sacraments. That's funny. And using false teachers as a way to justify NOT obey scripture is also LAME!
---kathr4453 on 8/11/19

Monk, why does Ephesians say "NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. ". That's what YOU need to be answering here.

The belief one must achieve these sacraments isa works salvation NOT IN SCRIPTURE.

The RCC is also guilty of this false doctrine, not just the ORTHODOX.
---kath4453 on 8/11/19

Kathr4453 said, (in a now closed blog) " So David, just posted Romans 6:13 for you as the answer to your question, Why do many continue in sin who call themselves Christians or say they are dead...or sin died or whatever your question was. It's because part of the problem is they failed to OBEY the YIELD your members as those alive from the dead part unto God ....Romans is very clear..a detailed step by step of what OUR PART IS....SUBMIT, YIELD AND RECKON , OBEY FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine delivered to you."

Kathr, why are you so worried about WORKS? I thought you lived by faith?
---Monk_Brendan on 8/10/19

Once I had a conversation with an evangelical minister who expressed his fear that evangelicalism is moving towards the heresy of Peleganism. "It's just me and Jesus, in that order, and what I decide, and I don't need anyone else, not even the Church."

kathr, even hearing God's word involves the use of our senses.

Quit trying to be more spiritual than God. It won't work.

God invented the Sacraments. Haven't you heard?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/10/19

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The ONLY ONE we need to receive anything from for salvation is GOD. Salvation is not ACHEIVED. It is RECEIVED FROM GOD ALONE through faith in Jesus death and resurrection life. It's Not a process reaching some goal you achieve by having to do this or that. It's INSTANT THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE. It takes place between YOU, the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. No priests or self imposed Fathers have any power in your salvation. God empowers HIS WORD speaking through men in proclaiming the Gospel. And don't let anyone tell you you must do this this this and this on top of your faith in Jesus who died for your sin.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/19

\\But again it denies salvation by grace through faith alone\\

The sacraments are grace and faith concretized.

Yes, they have a physical side. But if you remove all physical elements from our salvation, which would include the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection, you wind up with NO salvation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/19

Kathr4453 said, "But let me commend you in your sentence structure and perfect spelling. But even with that, just like a STRONGS or Lexicon, it does not have any magical powers leading anyone to truth."

And the words issuing from your lips are pearls and gems?

Sorry, but your spirit of nastiness seems to override your professions of truth and love.

---Monk_Brendan on 8/9/19

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