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Two Prophets Of Revelation

Are the two witnesses in Revelation 11 full of hate?

Revelation 11: 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets.

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 ---kathr4453 on 8/10/19
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The "PROMISE" began in Genesis more fully revealed when ISAAC, the child of PROMISE was born....Abraham KNEW what that meant. ( WHAT DO YOU THINK CHILD OF PROMISE MEANT?) as we see IN ISAAC WILL THY SEED BE CALLED...AND THE SEED IS CHRIST. GAlatians ..That's why he was not afraid to sacrifice him, knowing he would be raised from the dead, as he saw in a vision the death and resurrection. Jesus said in the Gospels to the Pharisees, IF you say you know Abraham YOU SHOULD KNOW ME. And even the woman at the well knew He was the Christ...who was prophecied in the OT...prophecy beginning in Genesis 3:15 AND their faith was in those promises/Prophecies....just like our faith is in prophecy/promises yet to be fulfilled.
---kat453 on 8/26/19

Matthew 25: 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Here is the KEY VERSE... Then shall the RIGHTEOUS. they did what they did because they were already declared RIGHTEOUS. Only those who's faith is in Christ ARE THE RIGHTEOUS.
---kathr453 on 8/26/19


I didn't say Abraham didn't know GOD. God spoke to him face to face. I said he didn't know JESUS as such. The idea that God would have a son who would have to die to take the sins of mankind, and nobody could be saved otherwise - that theology didn't exist until 2000 years ago. The idea that people "needed to be saved" at all to have a pleasant afterlife rather than an unpleasant one was totally new. Jewish theology didn't even really teach about an afterlife. Heaven and hell weren't a carrot and stick to influence behavior - one lived a righteous life just because one loved God and He demanded it.

David said "The Lord said to my lord", not "his son". Isaiah said "servant".
---StrongAxe on 8/26/19

Job knew!
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job also offered SACRIFICED for sin.
Is there more than one redeemer?

Like I stated, those in the OT looked ahead ...put their faith in what was hoped for the evidence of things not seen. OT...the Just shall live by faith. By FAITH ABEL....offered a more acceptable sacrifice, and by it God said Abel was Righteous. That sacrifice pointed to Christ and His sacrifice of Himself for our sin.
---kathr4453 on 8/26/19

The Witch of Endor saw Samuel in heaven, and in parable of Rich Man and Lazarus, Abraham was in heaven - despite neither knowing Jesus nor Jesus having died yet.
---StrongAxe on 8/25/19

No one said that OT faith in the promised redeemer had to believe Jesus already died...YIKES. AND no one said one knew What His name would be..YIKES AGAIN. No verses say Samuel or Lazarus was in Heaven, or that the Witch saw him in heaven. ....Jesus said in Luke they were in Abrahams Bosom. But I'm sure those in Abrahams Bosom were the ones who like Job believed in the coming Redeemer, as we now look back. These are now the spirits of Just men MADE PERFECT when Jesus lead captivity captive and brought them all to heaven AFTER He rose from the dead.
---kath453 on 8/26/19

This is what my bible says...nothing about heaven or bringing someone UP from heaven... She just brought him looks OUT IF THE EARTH.

And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
---kath4453 on 8/26/19

Strongaxe, I've answered what my views are on Matthew 24-25. I personally can't separate the two chapters. I just see it differently than you do.

Ok so you are saying Abraham didn't know God in the OT, and the author of Hebrews lied in Chapter 11 saying Moses chose the reproach OF CHRIST more worthy than the riches of Egypt ....David said in the Psalms...The Lord said to My Lord, sit here at my right hand Psalms 110:1. Is talking about Christ. Galatians and Hebrews clearly say the Gospel was preached to Abraham as well as those in Israel as well as unto us. The Gospel preached to Abraham is why Gentiles are saved today. So based on that too....there has always been those who believed in the Gospel before Jesus died and rose again.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/19

Samuel, I totally agree. ALL HAVE sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. All the good works in the world cannot counter that fact. No one can come to the Father except through His Son Jesus Christ. I know many hate that fact, but I didn't make the Rules...GOD DID.

I also don't believe in taking one verse and building a whole belief system around it. That's what Cults do. All truth has supporting scripture and no scripture supports being nice to another gets you into heaven. Many will be nice to those the two witnesses bring Gods wrath on....and they still won't get into heaven.
---kath4453 on 8/25/19


True the law cannot save. That is not the purpose of the law. The purpose of the law is to tell us what is a sin.

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Read all of 1 John and Romans 3 and 6.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/25/19


In Matthew 25, the sheep were not aware of their own worthiness. They were humble, and not proud. The goats thought themselves worthy, but were not. I similar inversion of expectations is in Wedding Feast parable, and Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus rejected many who boasted of their own works. Pharisees were proud of their own accomplishments, but had no love, and Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.

The Witch of Endor saw Samuel in heaven, and in parable of Rich Man and Lazarus, Abraham was in heaven - despite neither knowing Jesus nor Jesus having died yet.
---StrongAxe on 8/25/19

The CHURCH is the Mystery. That's what was revealed to Paul, that the CHURCH was a whole new thing, being formed by CHRIST IN YOU the Hope of Glory. This is what scripture says the Mystery is , Colossians 1:24-27. I'm sure there were things that they didn't understand. Just because someone doesn't understand something doesn't make it THE MYSTERY. And no scripture states that Jesus death and resurrection was a Mystery. And if Colossians 1:24-27 tell us EXACTLY what the mystery is, then THAT is the Mystery. They testified of Jesus resurrection at Pentecost saying they were eye witness of His resurrection,, therefore it was not a mystery only revealed to Paul years later.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/19

we have multitudes TODAY who still don't understand the mystery, yet they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. David here is a good example, as his most recent comments prove this fact. He believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but REJECTS OUR identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life. He rejects Romans 6, Galatians 2:20-21, just as the early Christians in Galatia began falling away from THE MYSTERY of CHRIST IN YOU...the whole of what Galatians is about.

The Only way Christ is IN YOU is explained in Romans 6-8. Only those baptized into His death and raised a New Creature is THE CHURCH.
---kat453 on 8/25/19

Jesus said in Luke He would die and rise again.
Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. (Still a mystery)
OT Saints had no clue of the mystery, as Peter proved trying to prevent it.
Also they were called Christian at Antioch and not Jerusalem for a reason.
Try studying with right division.
---michael_e on 8/25/19

Strongaxe, I'll reword. Every dispensation was given prophecy concerining the coming redeemer. Adam and Eve Genesis 3:15. God built upon the same promise with Abraham,...IN ISAAC WILL THY SEED BE CALLED..THE SEED IS CHRIST....GALATIANS...and built more on the very same promise with Jacob, re the virgin, tribe of Judah, seed of David. That's HOW we all know that Jesus is not some NEW religion.

And keeping Gods laws were never said to bring life out of no one can be following a law of God and be saved. Not even Paul claimed such a thing, seeing he said concerining the law he was BLAMELESS. If it couldn't save him, it can't save anyone. He should know.

Is there some other law scripture says saves? Not Matthew 25.
---kathr4453 on 8/25/19

Also Strongaxe, IF what you say is true, it could only be true if there are those like the Pharisee and Publican who one strutted all his good works, verses one who simply said, BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER.

So, we know according to Romans 2 God put a conscience in man to know right and wrong. So perhaps if one who's conscience has not been seared says I DONT KNOW YOUR NAME, but BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER.....PERHAPS these will be saved. well just have to wait and see. But good works alone???? NOPE!
---kath453 on 8/25/19

michael_e's says the Mystery is Jesus death and resurrection, however the Mystery according to Colossians 1:24-27 is CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY. Christ in you making up the Church, the BOC ...this is the Mystery hidden in past ages but now made manifest. Jesus stated in the Gospels He would die and rise again, so it couldn't be the mystery. Isaiah 53 also shows the promised redeemer would suffer, and certain verses in Psalms point to Jesus resurrection. Also Abraham saw the resurrection in a vision. Don't underestimate what the faithful knew.

Everyone is saved the same way, faith in Christ, however each dispensation requires something different than the prior dispensation. The NT requirement after the Cross requires Romans 6-8.
---kathr4453 on 8/24/19

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Adam, Even, Noah, Job, etc. didn't know he would be born of a virgin, or from the tribe of Judah, or from David, as there was no Judah, David, or Isaiah to prophesy yet.

As I said, there are people who follow God's laws and looking forward to his promise, even if they don't actually know it yet.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/19

Also everything in the tabernacle constructed by Moses was exactly as God said , pointed to Jesus Christ...EVERYTHING. The Mercy seat....sacrifice of animals...we see Hebrews 10...They did not believe the blood of bulls and goats took away sin...they did however know it only covered UNTIL THE REDEEMER would come and take away sin once and for all. It was the SCHOOLMASTER POINTING TO CHRIST. From Genesis to Revelation is the Gospel of Salvation through the Promises of God. Even Abel knew his blood sacrifice pointed to the promised redeemer.

Unfortunately hyper dispensationalists just can't see this truth because it messes up their doctrine that Jesus death and resurrection was a mystery given only to Paul. It's total nonsense.
---kat453 on 8/24/19

Clearly the Law pointed to Christ, just as the Ark pointed to Christ, just as Abel's sacrifice pointed to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under the law.

And don't let anyone else tell you different. Believe the WORD OF GOD, not man made up doctrines.

I'm surprised some don't say faith was the mystery, but then again they would have to deny Hebrews 11 as TRUTH.
---kath4453 on 8/24/19

Strongaxe, Just as Abraham rejoiced to see His day, so did Adam and Eve, Abel, Noah, Moses, Job, etc etc. They didn't know His name would be Jesus. But they did know He would be born of a virgin..etc, from the tribe if Judah, from the seed if David, as each dispensation revealed more and more.

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
---kathr4453 on 8/24/19

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It isn't true that everyone in the OT was looking forward to the cross, because no one knew about it. They can't look forward to what they did not know.
Moses did not even know Gods name (Exo 3:13).
Zachariah, said Christ had come to deliver the nation out of the hands of our enemies and never once mentions the cross (Luke 1:71-74).
Peter took it as bad news when Jesus told him plainly he would die.(Matt 16)
Peter was not looking forward to the cross, he was trying to prevent it! If Peter were looking forward to the cross shouldnt he have rejoiced in the cross like Paull?
---michael_e on 8/24/19


Islam uses similar reasoning to claim that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. were all Muslims.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/19

The JUST or Righteous in the OT we so because they looked forward to the Cross.....we look back. Same faith in the promised Redeemer. Even Job said I KNOW THAT MY REDEEMER LIVETH ...and I will see Him in the last days.

I'm surprised many don't know this who seems to somewhat know the Bible.

When Paul James Peter quote from the OT they weren't pointing to another religion or way to be justified.
---kathr4453 on 8/24/19

I know it says in Acts that the disciples were called Christian in Antioch. Yet those from Adam and Eve Abel, Enoch, Noah Moses( considered the sufferings/reproach of "Christ" Hebrews 11:26) all these in Hebrews 11 were Christians by the definition of what Christian means in Acts ...THOSE WHO FAITH WAS IN CHRIST.

And Romans 2:15-16 ALL MEN will be judged according to the Gospel...that began in Genesis
---kathr4453 on 8/24/19

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Righteous people before Noah (e.g. Enoch) didn't know Jesus.
Righteous people before Moses (e.g. Abraham) didn't know Jesus.
Righteous people before Jesus didn't know Jesus.
Righteous gentiles didn't know Jesus.

Does that mean they're all rotting in hell because of it? No. They had God's law written on their hearts, and at the final judgment, they will recognize Jesus as the one they have been following all along, even though they didn't know him at the time. THESE are the sheep.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/19

Strongaxe, yes there are different dispensations, but that does not mean different religions. Hebrews 11 begin at the beginning, Genesis, and go through a few dispensations re Moses etc, but NEVER change the salvation message. The law was never of faith and never offered salvation.

It's always been FAITH IN THE PROMISED REDEEMER regardless of the dispensation. Jesus is that Promised redeemer. Abraham saw the death and resurrection in a vision when about to sacrifice Isaac.

All dispensations require faith in the Lord. ...the Lambs book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION IF THE WORLD, not the foundation of Pentecost. EVERY DISPENSATION POINTED TO JESUS CHRIST revealing more and more about Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/23/19


God has had seveal different dispensations, each with different rules.

Before the Fall, innocence.
Before the Flood, men were vegetarians.
After Noah, meat was permitted.
With Abraham, the Abrahamic Promise.
With Jacob, the covenant with Israel.
Under Moses, the Law.
Under John the Baptist, the teaching of repentance.
Under Jesus, the Gospel of the Kingdom.
After Pentecost, Christianity.

Matthew 25:31-33 says the Son of Man will come in glory, separating the nations AS sheep and goats. Obviously they're not ACTUAL sheep and goat, but this is obviously a prophecy (and not merely a parable) by the way it's worded.
---StrongAxe on 8/23/19

Mark_Eaton, please site your sources as to the incorrect translation. Eternal G166 also everlasting is used and defined as having no end. The same word used for everlasting in many scriptures do not support your claim.

I know the JW insist too a wrong translation of John 1 saying the original said " a god" referring to THE WORD.

Do you actually own the original translation, or just taking someone's word for it who wants to rewrite scripture to measure up to their doctrines? I tried to find your source concerning Matthew 25:46 and came up empty.
---kat453 on 8/23/19

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Are you saying this already took place? Could Jesus be using this dialogue as a teaching tool? I simply cannot separate these few verses from all of Matthew 24-25. I think you are reading too much into it. The 4 soils, another example of Jesus using soil as a teaching tool. But no doubt there's a cult out there looking at literal soil, just like those who literally let's snakes bite them .

Christianity is not a cult, and began in Genesis as Genesis 3:15 point to Christ. So to make that ststement that Christianity is a cult I find offensive. Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ. It DID NOT start after Pentecost ....but the promises were FULFILLED at Pentecost and more yet to be fulfilled going back to Genesis 3:15.
---kathr4453 on 8/23/19

Matt 25:46 "these will go into an age of pruning or correction but the righteous into an age of life"

The Greek word incorrectly translated "punishment" is kolasis, which is a gardening word originally meaning pruning trees. Kolasis is always meant to amend or to cure, not to punish as in vengence or returning evil for evil.

The Greek word incorrectly translated "eternal" is aionios, and has the meaning of an age of time, or of the ages. It does not mean time without end.

In this verse, Jesus is telling us that the correction is not without love. God will not return evil for evil. The correction will be for an age of time, not time without end.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/19

True Strong Ax. But many do not like to read Matthew 25.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/23/19

Strongaxe, the Pharisees who rejected Jesus may have said that, but the promise of the Christ started in Genesis. Genesis 3:15. ..not at Pentecost. Never heard that view before.

So you think a totally NEW religion started at Pentecost? The promise of the Spirit was prophecied all the way back in the OT. The promise of the savior again began in Genesis.

You do have some strange views. I'll have to disagree with yours on this one. Very strange views.
---kat453 on 8/23/19

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The religion we know as "Christianity" didn't start until after Pentecost, and the Jewish leaders at the time called it the "cult of the Nazarene".

Again, any Christians who know their bible would KNOW Matthew 25, and would not need to ask the question. They would ALREADY KNOW that what they do unto others they are doing to Jesus. Since it's a concept taught throughout scriptures (as you just said), Christians should KNOW this lesson, and know it well.

So why would they ask the question? Only if they DIDN'T KNOW. So WHY didn't they know?
---StrongAxe on 8/23/19

Strongaxe, Christianity God started the moment He created Adam and Eve, and continued it after covering Adam and Eve, and when Abel offered the first blood sacrifice putting his faith in the promised Redeemer.

When asking.."when did we do this to you" seeing they never personally did it to Jesus ...why do you think that's an odd question? Jesus said what you do to others is doing unto me. I believe this is a concept taught through out scripture of Christians aka the Sheep. IVe never seen that chapter as a universal salvation because of being nice to others. Does it have other supporting scripture that being nice to others brings one to LIFE out of death? Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION. I AM THE WAY TRUTH AND LIFE.
---kathr4453 on 8/23/19

Also Strongaxe, I see Matthew 24-25 different than you. This will be a time when Jesus as KING will be here, on His Throne called His Second Coming setting up His Earthly 1000 year reign....and who will be allowed to be here at that time. Zechariah 12-14 add more information to this time. Those who came against ISRAEL are the goats. And those who didn't seem to be allowed to enter the 1000 year reign.

Matthew 25 ..This is not the Great White Throne Judgement as NO BOOKS ..or even a mention of the Lambs book of life is mentioned.

Jesus' reference to "my brethren " here in Matthew 25 is the Jews. Supporting scripture is Zechariah 12-14.
---kath453 on 8/23/19

Matthew25: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The very last verse here does not teach universalism. Everlasting punishment is not temporary punishment. If those who choose to redefine everlasting to something temporary, than everlasting LIFE is and must be taught it's only temporary too. And again CULTS change the definitions of scripture to fit with their cherry picked verses.
---kat453 on 8/23/19

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When Jesus said "I was hungry and you fed me", etc. sheep ask "When did we do that?". Why would they ask this? Christians would ALREADY know the answer! I asked others how that's possible several times, but nobody ever gave a satisfactory answer.

Another possibility is that there are people who have God's law written on their hearts, and who follow it, despite never actually having heard of Jesus? When they meet Jesus at the final judgment, they will say "It was you all along!".

Also, since Christians say they are the only true way to be saved, wouldn't that make Christianity a cult by your own definition? EVERY religion is new at some point.

I read Martin's KotC years ago.
---StrongAxe on 8/22/19

Also Strongaxe..MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE shows the sheep are already believers who hear Jesus voice. Goats or non believers do not hear His voice. So there is no such thing as a sheep who doesn't believe first in Jesus Christ. He obeys what he hears. He follows the shepherd because he KNOWS THE SHEPHERD. ****Psalms 23**** He does not hear the voice of strangers. So the Sheep do not follow the strange voice of a false teacher. Or false doctrine.

He leads His sheep in the paths of Righteousness. FOR HIS NAME SAKE. goats will eat anything. Goats are not sheep. Sheep are not goats.

So no, Matthew 25 is not teaching universalism by any stretch of the imagination.
---kathr4453 on 8/22/19

Also there are secular CULTS like the KKK. White Supremacist, having nothing to do with religion. There are political CULTS as well. So there is clear definition of a cult. Do they brainwash? Say we are the ONLY TRUE THIS OR THAT. Tell you you are superior to others. Tell you they have a secret you can work up to finding that secret. Are they a secret society? Give you a supplement to the Bible?

With religious CULTS there is ALWAYS HERESY. But BELIEF in a heresy does not mean you are in a cult. Religious CULTS put more importance on man then on God. CULTS make up their own beliefs not in scripture. Cults have control of you. Know the signs of a CULT. They are dangerous.
---kat453 on 8/22/19

Strongaxe, read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. He seems to be very learned in this area. I agree with his understanding. You are free to agree with your own. No problem.
---kathr4453t on 8/22/19

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Also if you have a guru who started a NEW belief system, like Ellen White did, a false prophetess in this case, or Ron L etc or those brothers with the JW'S OT Joseph Smith etc's definitely classed as a cult by those who define the term. I guess on Paul's time they were simply called heretics
Those Calvin RCC just murdered.
---kat453 on 8/22/19


The line between cults and heresies is fuzzy. The contains no definition of "cult".

The Arian heresy said Jesus was more than man, but less than God. This is what Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Some statements of Jesus put him on the same level as God, but some put him on a lower level, so saying the Bible teaches one and not the other is incorrect - it teaches BOTH.

The Bible is also somewhat ambiguous about universalism - some scriptures say we are only saved through faith in Jesus. Others suggest even some who don't know Jesus yet do his will anyway (e.g. Matthew 25 sheep) will have a higher place in heaven than believers who don't.

Catholics have a supreme leader (i.e. the Pope).
---StrongAxe on 8/22/19

Strongaxe, To be a cult you fall under certain guidelines. One being the denial of the Deity if Christ. Those who claim Jesus is Michael . Another is denying the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST. That would be Universalism. Mother Theresa was a universalist.....BE THE BEST HINDU YOU CAN BE...BE THE BEST MUSLIM YOU CAN BE ETC.

Also, Following a man or Guru, like Jim Jones, that group in Waco, those who tried to catch a Comet, Scientology, etc etc...are CULTS, not Christian or denominations.

Heresy is different. That drills down to certain teachings within mainstream " if you don't obey Saturday sabbath you are sinning" ...ALTHOUGH there are some who put SDA as a cult.
---kathr4453 on 8/22/19

Good point Strong Ax. Kathyr as a Person who is often called a cult member. I have trouble with labels on being called a cult. In the sense that scholars use the word all denominations are a cult.

But in the modern use it is used to denigrate those who disagree with a person.

For instance I find those who follow the name it and claim it preachers who demand their followers to buy them new jets a cult. But others look on them as Christians.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/22/19

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The line between difference of opinion and heresy is fairly vague, and different people put it in different places. Thus, what some people call denominations, other people call cults. There are some people who believe that only their interpretation of Christianity is correct, and call almost all Christian denominations heretics.
---StrongAxe on 8/21/19

And hopefully JS1234 does not see name calling in my post. Identifying CULTS is not name calling. Standing on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets is not name calling.
---kathr4453 on 8/21/19

Let's be clear that the early fathers aka the church fathers are NOT The Prophets and Apostles God built His truth on. Those men are listed in scripture. Everyone else after that are no different than you and I.....those who follow the Foundation the Apostles and Prophets of scripture, OR those who don't and started their own cults based on cherry picking scripture along with mixing scripture with Gnosticism and other false doctrines the Prophets and Apostles have warned us about.

So it appears JS1234 has made it clear through many of his posts he is another who follows man and NOT the Word of God. With that in mind, no scripture built on the Apostles and Prophets ever preached Universalism.
---kathr4453 on 8/21/19

Universal reconciliation was the dominant school of thought in Christianity among the earlier fathers. This is something you can easily verify for yourself.

It seems odd that God would create billions of people, knowing in advance that they would choose not to follow him, and do nothing to intervene on their behalf. Such a god is not the God of love but rather a cruel tyrant, unworthy of our affection.
---JS1234 on 8/20/19

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Talk about twisting scripture. But Hay, the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit, and Jesus said MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.

Yes man can refuse to believe, also showing not all men have faith.

Universalists belief don't need faith...and without faith it's impossible to please God.

Universalists cherry pick scripture like ALL CULTS DO.
---kathr4453 on 8/20/19


Yes, God can do anything he wants. However, God mostly stays out of the picture, and lets us do our own thing. He doesn't will that anyone should perish, yet people still perish. There is much death and disease and suffering in the world. Wars constantly happen, resulting in the deaths of millions. There are three possibilities:

1) God wants that to happen (which means God is an evil sadist), or
2) God doesn't care one way or other (which makes him indifferent, not a loving parent), or
2) God doesn't want it to happen, but chooses not to intervene, because that would interfere with man's free will (until he finally gets sick of it all and does so, resulting in cataclysms like the Flood and Armageddon).
---StrongAxe on 8/20/19


We must not put limits on what God is able to do. Even Jesus himself indicated that there will be forgiveness in the age to come. Matthew 12:32. It is God's will that everyone be saved. 1st Timothy 2:4. And I don't think God's will can be thwarted by anybody. Just saying...
---JS1234 on 8/20/19


You wrote: The Armstrong father and son will eventually be able to come to their senses and God will save them too.

Whom do you mean? Herbert W. Armstrong died on January 16, 1986, and Garner Ted Armstrong died on September 15, 2003. Neither one has any further opportunity to come to their senses.
---StrongAxe on 8/20/19

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Makes me wonder as we see the Gospel so watered down these days, along with the touchy feely false doctrine of universal is, which by the way is NOT CHRISTIANITY, if that is why there is so much lawlessness in our world today.

There are several verses as to who/ what will not inherit the Kingdom of God. No verse says all will eventually one day come to their senses and inherit the Kingdom of God.

Liars also have their part in the Lake of fire.
---kathr4453 on 8/20/19

The Armstrong father and son will eventually be able to come to their senses and God will save them too.
---JS1234 on 8/19/19


Yes, the Bible speaks about various witnesses, but this blog is specifically about the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 who preach, are killed by the Beast, lie in the street for three days without being buried, are resurrected, and ascend to heaven.


Both Armstrongs died from natural causes, were buried, and are still dead, so they obviously CAN'T be the Two Witnesses. The Bible has descriptions of requirements for a prophet, and what to do if one predicts something that isn't true. Yet, the various WCG churches all follow people the Bible says are false prophets. So which "God" are they churches of?
---StrongAxe on 8/19/19

The Armstrong people are still around. But they have split up into dozens and dozens of different groups. And each group claims to be the one true church.
---JS1234 on 8/19/19

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The JEWS had two witnesses, but WE have THREE witnesses.

1 John 5:8 There are three witnesses

It is the JEWS who only have 2 for their MESSIAH/MOSHIACH.

Moses foresaw that it was the CHRIST/SAVIOR that would offer REWARD.

Heb 11:26 He considered abuse suffered for THE CHRIST greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward......

......"THE CHRIST" means THE SAVIOR (not
---faithforfaith on 8/19/19

Oh yea, Armstrongism...I've totally forgotten about that CULT.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/19

When I was young, I was told that the two witnesses would be Herbert W. Armstrong and Garner Ted Armstrong.
---JS1234 on 8/18/19


You wrote: The Two Witnesses of Revelation are the Old and New Testaments.

That directly contradicts the plain words of scripture.

Revelation 11:3: They are clothed in sackcloth.
5: They will breathe fire that kills anyone who hurts them.
7: The beast will overcome and kill them.
8: Their dead bodies will lie in the great city where our Lord was crucified.
9: People would mock their bodies 3 and a half days, and not allow them to be buried.
11: After 3 and a half days, the spirit of life will enter them, and they will stand on their feet.
12: A voice from heaven will call them and they will ascend to heaven in a cloud.

These are all things that happen to men, not books.
---StrongAxe on 8/15/19

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\\The Two Witnesses of Revelation are the Old and New Testaments.

---jerry6593 on 8/15/19\\

A pretty idea, but it doesn't work.

How are two corpi of writings killed with their bodies lying in the streets?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/15/19

Like I said TOO Jerry, there are many different views as to who or what the two witnesses are. Yours is again another view many hold. I've never pinned down exactly who/ not sure what your snipe is about.

Again, the question is not WHO are the two witnesses. But then again, no one here thoroughly reads anything before jumping in and making a fool of themselves. I think if more people actually took the time to read, instead of glazing over and quickly posting something out of left field, we would have less contention here.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/19

Steveng, that's totally funny. I post not worldly matters but right out of scripture. But when making an accusation, it's important to give an example. In doing so, we can all see your definition of what you think worldly matters are, and decide then if your accusation is correct.

My post here are not listing any worldly matters but right out of scripture. Comparing scripture with scripture as you too have done. We just have two BIBLICAL ways of looking at something.

But again, I said some things God word shows are still mysteries to us ....certainly would not categorize that statement in a category of Worldly Matters.

So your last comment is nil ....
---kathr4453 on 8/15/19

Another lesson from the book of kathr, no doubt.

The Two Witnesses of Revelation are the Old and New Testaments.

---jerry6593 on 8/15/19

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Kathr, you assume way too much in many of your posts using worldly interpretations of spiritual matters.
---Steveng on 8/14/19

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

This whole thing is a mystery as no one has ever been translated or taken by God, except possibly Paul when he was caught up to the 3rd heaven or paradise. Paul did not die and come back to life either. And since these two, possibly 3 with John in Revelation, who also did not die and come back to life either, is a mystery we really don't understand yet. ALL I know is GOD'S WORD SAID ENOCH DID NOT SEE DEATH. I don't have to understand it to believe it.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Steveng , is Hebrews saying Enoch did see death ?Where ever Enoch is, there are no days and nights now. So maybe all his days here are recorded in earthly time of his earthly time on earth. There still may be mysteries God has that we just don't have the answers to. This may be one of them.

So, are you calling the author of Hebrews a liar? And Steveng , this is a long held belief by many over the last 6000 years. I doubt only YOU have the absolute answer. But if it makes you feel better, by all means believe it. I don't think it interferes with ones salvation of what they may believe scripture is saying. Just like the two witnesses....many opinions....and it is not an issue with anyone who holds a different view.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

The phrase "all the days of..." is mentioned several times in the bible which indicated the life span of people.

"all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23)

So, Kathr, you think James 5:17, Hebrews 9:27, Corinthians 15:22 are not true? Could these verses be contradictions? Could the bible be misinterpreted? Could there be a misunderstanding from a personal perspective?

There are hundreds of English bible interpretations in the world. Which one is the truth? Most people, even most christians, get their interpretations from the bible only - interpreted by their denominational leaders. It's very important for a christian to speak with the Holy Spirit for the truth.
---Steveng on 8/14/19

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Also no one knows who the two witnesses are....also says they are 2 Candlesticks and 2 lamp stands. I don't see any supporting scripture showing Moses Enoch or Elijah as these. So it's only SOMEONES THEORY it's Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah as some say. The question wasn't about WHO one thinks they are.

Often those doing Gods will are accused of being hateful, when they really can't see things through Gods eyes, and not their own human eyes.

Rebuke a brother and he will love you....the same rebuke to a scoffer and he will hate you. That fact was established as far back as Cain and Abel. Jacob and Esau.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Well if Enoch is dead, he saw death. Everyone who dies sees death, even someone in a coma.

Steveng, it could be Gen 5 was just about the time Enoch was on earth before God took Him.

Now I have heard this about Elijah before and often wondered if it wasn't a situation like Philip in Acts when he was instantly carried away to another place preaching.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/19

Enoch died, "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23)

Elijah died. The Bible does not say how much longer Elijah lived. But Elijah lived as a man (James 5:17), it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27), and all men after Adam must die (Corinthians 15:22). There are three heavens mentioned in t he bible (where God resides, where the planets and stars are, and where the atmosphere that surrounds the Earth). Elijah was caught up in a whirlwind in the atmosphere and translated to another location on Earth. Four years after he was taken up a letter was written by Elijah. II Chronicles 21:12-15.

Just FYI.
---Steveng on 8/13/19


This blog is specifically about The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 - two very specific prophets who condemn the Beast, and are later killed by him. It's not about Christian witness in general.
---StrongAxe on 8/12/19

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(FOR US the Gentiles).

For us today (the GENTILES), there are 3 witnesses (it is the JEWS who only have 2 for their MESSIAH/MOSHIACH).

Moses foresaw that it was the CHRIST/SAVIOR that would offer REWARD.

Heb 11:26 He considered abuse suffered for THE CHRIST greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward.
---faithforfaith on 8/12/19

I think the point is they are perceived as being full of hate because after their 1260 days the beast kills them and their dead bodies lay in the street as the whole world celebrates their death actually going as far a sending each other gifts. From the sinners perspective "they" see them as hate, when actually their 1260 days was an act of LOVE by God trying to lead them to repentance.

To me it shows that in the end just how hardened and seared the conscience of man will be because Iit says nothing about anyone repenting.

At least during the time of Jonah Nineveh repented.
---kathr4453 on 8/12/19

Jesus said while on earth, after Enoch and Elijah.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hebrews said Enoch did not see death....

We know there are heavens, and a place ABOVE THE HEAVENS, as Ephesians 4 show us. The Heavens as we also see are also shown in Genesis and not necessarily the THRONE OF GOD, we also call Heaven.

Paul went to the Third Heaven, and we don't know exactly if that is a lower heaven and Gods Throne would be the first heaven. But John 3:13 is right from Jesus lips...that NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN BUT..WHO ????
---kathr4453 on 8/12/19

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