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Absent From Our Body

Why do Jehovah Witness go into a frenzy and accuse Paul of being the anti-christ because he teaches absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...aka the immortal soul. 1 corinthians 15...DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY they just don't understand. Why?

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 ---kathr4453 on 8/26/19
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The idea that Michael the AA was born a man , somehow being able to shed his spirit being while a man, die as a man only and once that happens Michael the AA IS quickened...meaning made alive....suggests that an angel died and was resurrected . It makes no sense. Angels can't die and be resurrected.

For one, 1Corinthians state birth is AFTER ITS KIND. So an angel cannot become a man or vice versa.
Secondly, WHERE WAS MICHAELthe AA ..the SPIRIT the whole time CHRIST aka Michael the man was on earth.

Michael could not have been quickened in his spirit , or even BY the Holy Spirit if he didn't first die. To be resurrected, you must first die. So did Michael the AA die at some point? Or just disappear for 33 years?
---kathr4453 on 9/4/19

///Everlasting father: Jesus is the "last Adam"- 1Cor.15:45.////

Here is where every Christian should have an issue. NOtice above where David8318 put in lower case father? Red flag.

First, Jesus is not our Father, ...we come TO THE FATHER THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. Ok so they believe Jesus the man died disintegrated, and Michael the AA spirit was quickened..their version of 1Peter 3:18. But scripture tells us the HOLY SPIRIT quickened ...also backed up in Romans 8:11-13.

Now they say Michael is the last Adam who quickens us us resurrection life out of death....yet Romans 8:11-13 say no such thing. Michael can't be the last Adam either, because he was never the first Adam to begin with.
---kat453 on 9/4/19

Now David8318 states Michael the AA is that quickening spirit, did Michael the AA quicken himself? Impossible. It's GOD who brings life, and also brings life out of angel has such powers. And the SAME SPIRIT, who is GOD who,raised Jesus from the dead is that same Spirit GOD! NOT MICHAEL ...Romans 8:11-13.

WHom GOD hath raised from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him (Acts 2:24).

But God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen (Acts 10:40).

But God raised him from the dead (Acts 13:30).

So Michael is NOT the last Adam....GOD THE SON IS.
---kath4453 on 9/4/19

Deut 10: 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

*Psalms 50,


David8318, nothing you have posted is scripture, only YOUR interpretation of what you believe. However scripture clearly stated needs no REINTERPRETATION what it means. You are free to believe what you will. And now IM FREE from witnessing to you, praying you would open your eyes and have YOUR SOUL SAVED FROM DEATH. JAMES 5:20

So you feel some importance in the last have at it. However nothing you have posted measures up to OUR BIBLE, ..I prefer the KJV.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/19

//David 8318, YOU POSTED 1 Peter 3:18, trying to use that verse to say Jesus was not bodily resurrected, but was made alive in the spirit//- kathr4453

I know I posted 1Pe.3:18 because that's what Peter wrote about Christ "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (RSV)

Anyone can look back at Strongax 8/30/19 post and see how he changes Peter's words to 'in spirit'.

The verse at 1Pe.3:18 (RSV) clearly states Christ was raised "in the spirit". Raised 'in spirit' is false.

"Flesh & blood cannot inherit the kingdom"- 1Cor.15:50. Jesus did not return to heaven with his flesh. That's what scripture states at 1Pe.3:18 & 1 Cor.15:50.
---David8318 on 9/3/19

//scripture does say HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD [Is.9:6]// Kathr4453

That's a completely false statement. Is.9:6 says the prophecy is about a "child", and a "son". Also "Prince". These are hardly terms used for Almighty God. Is.9:6 says the Messiah will be a "Mighty God". Not Almighty God.

Wonderful counsellor: Jesus teachings are & will be superlative- Jo.16:12,13.

Mighty God: Jesus will execute judgment on this system under Jehovah's direction- Rev.19:11.

Everlasting father: Jesus is the "last Adam"- 1Cor.15:45.

Prince of Peace: At Armageddon Jesus (God's Son & Prince) will end warfare & those who countenance war- Rev.19:15,18.
---David8318 on 9/3/19

1 Peter 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

Also please note the KJV does not say made alive in the spirit, but Quickened BY THE SPIRIT, AKA THE HOLY SPIRIT.

PLEASE REFER TO HEBREWS 13:20-21 for clarification.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/19

Romans 8:11-13

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, ( PLEASE NOTE THAT THE SPIRIT OF MICHAEL THE AA DOES NOT DWELL IN BELIEVERS) he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
---kat453 on 9/3/19

Actually David 8318, YOU POSTED 1 Peter 3:18, trying to use that verse to say Jesus was not bodily resurrected, but was made alive in the spirit. I agree with Strongaxe along with ALL Christianity that it doesn't say Jesus was raised A SPIRIT. AND JESUS WORDS TO THOMAS CLARIFY THAT FACT.

You keep trying to make scripture say what it doesn't. This is where false teachers come in. JW doctrine is false doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/19

//"my view" of it is something you pulled entirely out of your imagination//- strongax.

No. Strongax view of 1Pe.3:18 was expressed in his post of 8/30/19. I can't imagine what possessed strongax to have that view other than his unwillingness to read what Peter said. Jesus was made alive "in the spirit" (1Pe.3:18). Which is totally different to strongax erroneous view of "in spirit".

So how does strongax know what was going through Thomas' mind? That straw-man argument can work both ways. How does strongax know Thomas didn't have both Jesus & Jehovah in mind. The pagan trinity concept was alien to the Jews. Jesus had already said "the Father is greater than I am". (Jo.14:28)
---David8318 on 9/3/19

It looks like nothing is going to be resolved here. Maybe it's time to move on.
---JS1234 on 9/2/19

Unfortunately AGAIN, David8318 makes false statements based on his ignorance. We do not believe in 3 Gods, but one God in three persons. There may be those who distort that, but the fact is, No matter what, Hebrews 1 says His Son is not an Angel of Michael the AA. So let's start there.
---kathr4453 on 9/2/19

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are One,

John 1:1 - In the Beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God , and the Word was God

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, ( And we beheld his Glory , the Glory as of the only begotten of the Father) Full of Grace and truth.
---RichardC on 9/2/19


You wrote: Trinitarians believe there two "God's" sitting next to eachother

Jehovah's Witnesses frequently quote their own interpretation of John 1:1, i.e. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was [a] god".

If Jesus was merely "a" god, don't you still ALSO believe in two "gods" sitting next to each other? The only difference between what you believe and what we believe here in whether or not one of them is capitalized.
---StrongAxe on 9/2/19

Heb 1... as he [Jesus] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ie.Michael]. 5 [verse omitted by kathr] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? [only to one angel can God ask this- his SON, Jesus] And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [only begotten son (Jo.1:14)]... 7 And of the angels [not the AA] he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son [the AA] he saith, ["God is Thy Throne"- Westcott & Hort. God is the source of Jesus kingship] for ever and ever...
---David8318 on 9/2/19

Heb 1: 1 God, ......spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son whom he hath appointed heir of all things, [would not need to appoint if he is already "God"] by whom also he made the worlds [God made the world by another God?]3 Who being the brightness of his glory [God's glory, not his], the express image of his person [Jesus is the image of God], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [Jesus is at God's right hand. Trinitarians believe there two "God's" sitting next to eachother]:
---David8318 on 9/2/19

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Well there ya go David 8318, I guess you misspoke....because scripture does say HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD. Was there prophecy of ANOTHER CHILD? ONe perhaps claiming the child would be Michael the AA, who is NOT Almighty GOD? Perhaps one that says a god? NO!

I love that, because there is no way the JW's can mess with those verses., except to mess with them and forbid their followers to look at any other Bible, for the purpose of keeping control of their minds.

But why do you keep jumping around when YOU get cornered?
---kathr4453 on 9/2/19

Matthew 1:23 ..the child, born of a virgin, as stated also in Isaiah 7:14

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Christ Child was prophecied in the OT, and by those OT prophecies we KNOW Jesus Christ is NOT Michael the AA. only FALSE PROPHETS would claim He is Michael the AA.
---kathr4453 on 9/2/19

Richard C

Yes great verses Richard that dis-prove the trinity.

None of them speak of "God the holy spirit" and none mention "trinity" or Jesus is the "eternal God" or "God incarnate".

Thanks Richard C.
---David8318 on 9/2/19

RichardC, good verses!
---JS1234 on 9/1/19

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Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God, however Flesh and bone can. Now we are not members of an angel, or even Michael the AA.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1John 3:2 Now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be,but we know that WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.

Philippians 3:21 who shall change our vile BODY , that it be fashioned like unto HIS GLORIOUS BODY...
---kathr4453 on 9/2/19

Heb 1: 1 God, ......spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,....3 Who being the brightness of his glory, the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, ( BETTER THAN MICHAEL) .as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 6.....7 And of the angels ( that includes Michael) he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
---kat453 on 9/2/19


I never mentioned 1 Peter 3:18, so "my view" of it is something you pulled entirely out of your imagination.

By calling me a "cornered trinitarian", you assume that you have already won the argument. This is not the case, but since JWs automatically believe everything their often-proven-wrong cult leaders tell them and never listen to any evidence to the contrary, this is hardly surprising.

"My X" is literally a shorthand for "The X of me" for any language that has possessive pronouns, to you're splitting a dead hair. To whom was Thomas speaking? You claim to know what he "had in mind", but I prefer to trust what he ACTUALLY SAID rather than relying on ESP.
---StrongAxe on 9/2/19

Very early Church Fathers

Ignatius: Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible, the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way. (Ignatius, Letter to Polycarp, 3.2. Holmes, AF, 265.)

Polycarp of Smyrna (69155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)
---JS1234 on 9/1/19

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Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

John 12:45 - And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

John 14:8 - Phillip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Phillip ? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father .

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I am That I am: and he said , Thus shalt thou say unto children of Israel, I AM sent me unto you,

John 13:13 - Ye call me Master and Lord: and say well: For so I AM .
---RichardC on 9/1/19

//Thomas addressed him as "My Lord and my God!"//- strongax.

Realising his view of 1Pet.3:18 has completely fallen apart, strongax quickly moves on to another trinitarian mis-interpretation at Jo.20:28. A favourite tactic of a cornered trinitarian.

If Thomas had said "my Lord and God", there would be a basis for thinking Thomas thought Jesus was God. But Thomas didn't say or think that. Thomas said:

"ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou"

"the Lord of me and the God of me"

Simple... Thomas had both Jesus and Jehovah in mind. Jesus [his Lord] had been resurrected by Jehovah [YHWH, his God]. Having all doubt removed Thomas could say, "my Lord and my God".
---David8318 on 9/1/19

David8318, you seem to be double talking here. Did the MAN Christ Jesus rise from the dead or not? I have researched many places that you all do not believe THE MAN Christ Jesus rose from the dead.

And if Michael the AA REAPPEARED, does not mean Michael the AA was resurrected from the dead. The 500 including the Apostles saw THE MAN CHRIST JESUS, after He was Crucified and buried. They didn't see Michael PRETENDING to be Christ the man deceiving man. That IS anti_Christ doctrine.

So I would say Satan has blinded your eyes David 8318. Jesus clearly said He would raise HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD. His body is that TEMPLE He rose.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/19

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Deuteronomy 4:5 - Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in Heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: There is none else.

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Romans 6:33 - For the wages sin is death: But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Psalm 144:15 - Happy is that people, that is in such a case: happy is the people whose God is the Lord.

Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the Lord: and beside me there no Savior

Titus 2:13 - Looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
---RichardC on 9/1/19

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David 8318, The CRUEL PRACTICE of cults is to ISOLATE . As true Christianity and true Christians , we are FREE, free to search the scriptures to see if anyone is lying or telling the truth. FREE to bring all things to the Lord, asking God for wisdom, not men in a tower. And FREE to leave any church who teaches false doctrine without being shunned. This is what Scientology, Mormon, and JW do. Maybe even Jim Jones did....and look what happened to them.

You are FREE David8318 to investigate the origins of the JW and the faulty foundation it was built upon. I say all this in love David8318. I have never called you names. I have called you stupid for assaulting anyone who disagrees with you as anti-Christ. I STILL say that was STUPID.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/19

//None of your account is in scripture//- kathr44666

Yes it is. Just that Satan blinds the minds of you unbelievers- 2Cor.4:4. The resurrected Jesus was seen. People have seen and touched angels. (Gen.19:15,16). But no man has seen God- John 1:18. Therefore, the resurrected Jesus could not have been God.

//if Jesus didn't rise from the dead we would all still be in our sin//- kathr44666

Which is kathr44666 problem. Kathr believes Jesus is "fully God", the "eternal God" who cannot die. Kathr44666 doesn't believe Jesus is "God's son" (Jo.10:36) who became "manifest in the flesh" as a "man" to "mediate the new covenant between God and mankind". (Jo.1:14, 1Tim.2:5)
---David8318 on 9/1/19


After Jesus' resurrection, Thomas addressed him as "My Lord and my God!". If this was incorrect, why did Jesus did not correct him?

You call me inept, yet your own cult has continuously proven itself inept by again and again predicting the date when Jesus would return, and when it didn't happen, it said "Oops! We're received new light that we didn't have before", yet still maintains that it alone is empowered to interpret the meaning of scripture, despite having gotten it wrong again and again.

Also, there was no need to post your last response twice, solely to add an insult calling me inept, especially given that there are only 75 responses permitted per blog topic to be shared among everyone.
---StrongAxe on 8/31/19

a cruel practice only seen in seriously dangerous cults... kathr44666.

And the trinitarian kathr44666 is an expert in "seriously dangerous cults".

You only have to look at the 2 World Wars fought in the 20th Century to realise who are the evil cultists here.

Where did both World Wars start? Of course, in lands dominated by the false trinity doctrine. Hitler was a confirmed trinitarian supported by Franz von Papen, a Papal Knight blessed by the leader of the hideous Catholic cult, the Pope himself.

So if you want to see what these evil cultist trinitarians brought to most of the Western World, pick up any history book and see what death and destruction trinitarianism can do on an industrial scale for mankind.
---David8318 on 9/1/19

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John8318 and Kathryn
Both of you disgrace the name of the Lord, publicly, with your insults. You are both filled with hate towards each other and need to ask each other for forgiveness, else the hate Satan had created between you, will remain.
---David on 9/1/19

David 8318 is calling Strongaxe enept, because David8318 can't explain why Michael a being who cannot die was made a man and dies, but the WORD who is God who too cannot die, was made flesh but cannot die.

So if Michael the AA was made a man ....and completely ceased from being an angel until the man Jesus died and completely disintegrated , along his soul and spirit ...since they too believe that disintegrates as well, and at that moment God AGAIN creates Michael THE AA from memory or somehow materializes once Jesus is dead. YIKES!

Also one day every knee will bow before our Lord Jesus Christ and confess Jesus Christ is Lord. Remember now Christians ...we are NEVER TO BOW TO ANGELS. Even John in Rev was rebuked for doing so.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/19

David8318 calling folks names is PROJECTING his own failure to understand the TRUE Gospel.. by revealing his own lack of understanding and mocking it because it doesn't measure up to the man made JW Watchtower tracks and books, they simply make up on the fly and have changed their beliefs ON THE FLY that began when their false date of the end of the world didn't come about. AFTER 2-3 WRONG prophecies, they were too embarrassed to admit they were a false religion , so simply said the INVISIBLE Christ returned in 1914 or thereabouts.

So now we have an INVISIBLE CHRIST, yet OUR BIBLE says when Jesus returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE.

But Again, David8318 will PROJECT why our belief is nonsense based on HIS false understanding of truth.
---kath4453 on 9/1/19

David8318 is the one who can't understand Jesus complete and total death, because he thinks if Jesus is fully God fully man then Jesus 1/2 died. David8318, these are your concerns because you don't believe in the deity of Christ.

Hebrews 13:20-21 clearly say God brought back Jesus from the dead, tnrough the blood of the everlasting covenant. You say Jesus died and remained dead, and God disintegrated his body. And then walla, a full groan Michel the AA walks out of the tomb...a spirit being no one saw, and had no body.

None of your account is in scripture.

Fact is if Jesus didn't rise from the dead we would all still be in our sin, and our faith worthless * 1 Corinthians 15:17 .

Is JW doctrine then worthless?
---kathr4453 on 8/31/19

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Correction. David8318 left three final assaulting posts on the Salvation by our Works thread. David and I were discussing something not even close to JW Doctrine, ...and we weren't even discussing the JW belief or the total annihilation of our soul, and for some reason David8318 changed the subject, personally assaulted me calling me the anti Christ because I believe in the Trinity and believe in the deity of Christ. Many weeks ago stated I do not believe our soul is disintegrated at death. For some reason, this worked David8318 into some sort of frenzy. I asked here WHY.? Why do JW's get so worked up? Is it the Holy Spirit bringing them under conviction? I do hope so.
---kath453 on 8/31/19

//If Jesus was made lower than the angels WHILE STILL BEING MICHAEL//- strongax.

I knew strongax was inept, but not to the extent he has show here. Anyone reading these posts will see in my last post that Jesus was neither "God" nor "angel" when on Earth.

Jesus was "made lower than the angels" (Heb.2:7,9). Jesus was neither Michael, neither was he "God" when on Earth.

Jesus was a human being. And when he died, he was completely dead. Not half dead and half alive as the trinitarian strongax will have you believe.

Jesus was fully, 100pc dead to prove his complete faith in his Father, Jehovah God's power over death. Thus providing us a guarantee of the resurrection- Acts.17:31.
---David8318 on 8/31/19

1) David, no David 8318 drew first blood with his last post in the Two Witnesses blog. The discussion had changed for sometime, yet David 8318 couldn't wait and assaulted me calling me the anti_Christ.

2) why are you not defending the Gospel here David? Answer is, months weeks back you actually defended the JW Doctrine.

3) I have debated and exposed the RCC faith in many false doctrinal beliefs. PAY ATTENTION.

4) I am exposing JW doctrine. I have not PERSONALLY attacked David8318. IF he believes himself to be one if the 144000 anointed still on earth, creating doctrine and writing for the Watchtower, then that makes you both delusional if exposing JW doctrine is a personal attack on David8318.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/19

StrongAxe on 8/30/19,


Your comments are, as always, a delight."

Agree. A pleasure
---Chria9396 on 8/31/19

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//If Jesus was made lower than the angels WHILE STILL BEING MICHAEL//- strongax.

Anyone reading these posts will see in my last post that Jesus was neither "God" nor "angel" when on Earth.

Jesus was "made lower than the angels" (Heb.2:7,9). Jesus was neither Michael, neither was he "God" when on Earth.

Jesus was a human being. And when he died, he was completely dead. Not half dead and half alive as the trinitarian strongax will have you believe.

Jesus was fully, 100pc dead to prove his complete faith in his Father, Jehovah God's power over death. Thus providing us a guarantee of the resurrection- Acts.17:31.
---David8318 on 8/31/19

David your thoughts here are not on any fact but fancy. I asked David his denomination he refuses to answer. Why, is he afraid of being put under a microscope, or is he afraid to admit openly he too is JW?

Like I said David MY FAITH IS IN THE WORD OF GOD, it is not in a denomination, statement of faith, church building or doctrines of men. I've visited many different denominations, and now I attend the CMA...aka Christian Missionary Alliance. Are there areas we may not agree? YES. So don't feel you need to look up someone in the CMA and start falsely accusing like you did CS. And NO, a person's political affiliation has nothing to do with ones faith. How moronic is that comment?
---kat453 on 8/31/19

I also believe David jumped in here because his twin David8318 is in over his head with the REAL WORD OF GOD exposing the false doctrine of the JW's. It's a known tactic used here on line. If David is not JW, and is concerned for those in false doctrine AKA a false Gospel, he would be witnessing to David8318 and not be trying to create a diversion/ obstruction of the thread.

We all see through you David.
---kath453 on 8/31/19


Immortality of the soul is not incompatible with Christ's death. Living forever saved in heaven is infinitely preferable to living forever damned in hell (I know you don't believe in hell).

Calling kathr 666 is flinging mud, which is NOT Christ-like. At the Final Judgment, will you say "It was OK for me to be evil because others were evil to me first!" ?


You obviously haven't read her comments to me about Matthew 25 salvation criteria.

David8318 constantly quotes JW doctrine, contrary to trinitarian belief, shared by Christians of most denominations. JWs say ALL other Christians are apostate, so they can't complain when others say the same of them (i.e. The Golden Rule).
---StrongAxe on 8/31/19

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//He said in spirit NOT as a spirit//- Strongax.

No Stronax is far from precise. Strongax has misquoted Peter's words. Peter said 'in the spirit' as opposed to 'in the flesh'- 1Pe.3:18 (RSV). Not "in spirit" as Strongax wrongly concludes. [Put your glasses on Strongax]

If Strongax dis-believes Peter when he says Jesus was raised 'in the spirit', then it must be true that Strongax disbelieves Peter when he says Jesus was put to death 'in the flesh'. Peter's statement must be accepted in it's entirety. Peter is obviously comparing Jesus' death 'in the flesh' with his resurrection 'in the spirit'.

Peter is not saying Jesus was resurrected 'in spirit' as Strongax wrongly concludes.
---David8318 on 8/31/19

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

THE SEED IS CHRIST. not an angel, but GOD. Those Born "of God," aka Born Again, ( where our new birth is "IN CHRIST" CREATED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS) is why the wages of our sin will not lead to death, because our old sin man has been crucified with Christ aka DEAD..WE DIED. WITH CHRIST, and are now raised up together with Him a NEW CREATURE. The NEW CREATURE John says cannot sin because GODS SEED aka Christ remains in him, because HE IS BORN IF GOD.

Interestingly enough, Angels CAN SIN, and HAVE SINNED. Therefore Michael cannot be God's seed here.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/19

I know you and Kathryn are not of the same faith, and yet she never attacks your faith or Monk Brendans faith, the way she attacks David8318. Have you ever wondered why?

Notice the inflections in her question, which obviously was meant to bait David8318. Also note, she didnt give me her denomination when I asked for it. The reason, she didnt want me to put her beliefs under a microscope, like she does with those she hates.

It appears as though David8318, started the volley of insults, but if you look at the way the question is written, Kathryn drew first blood.

The only reason you dont draw her fire, is because you share the same political views. So in her mind, if your a democrat, your saved.
---David on 8/31/19

If God simply wanted another human being, He would have formed another one out of the dust of the earth, just like He did Adam. This idea that Michael the AA became a man only and then disintegrated in the tomb , would have left residue of at least ashes. Yet no such scripture makes such a statement. How could Michael have been made a man...die, and turn back into Michael the AA. That's nuts. One would have to believe Michael was fully angel and fully man for that, ut they don't. So if Michael disintegrated Michael no longer exists period.

Paul says, be thoroughly convinced IN YOUR OWN MIND. Romans 4:15 include ALL MATTERS. You have every right to be as the Bereans and not be controlled by a bunch of men.
---kath4453 on 8/31/19

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Your comments are, as always, a delight.


Precisely. He said in spirit NOT as a spirit. "Obeying the spirit rather than the letter of the law", doesn't mean disembodied ghosts.

If Jesus was made lower than the angels WHILE STILL BEING MICHAEL, he could just as easily have been made lower than the angels WHILE STILL BEING GOD. Again, you can't use this argument to prove Jesus wasn't God without ALSO proving Jesus wasn't Michael, making JW theology fall apart.

This is NOT "kathr's bizarre theology". It's theology believed by THE VAST MAJORITY of Christians on this planet. JW "bizarre theology" is a very tiny minority here.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/19

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

So JW believe Michael the AA became a man, and at death, his body totally disintegrated, and Michael the AA as spirit ONLY returns to Heven. The above scriptures, along with all those others I posted say otherwise. If the MAN Christ Jesus disintegrated, and was never raised from the dead....who then is mediating between God and Man? It does not say Michael the spirit being, and NO SCRIPTURE of ours says it is.

1Cor 15:44 state we are sown a natural,body and will be raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. Jesus Christ TODAY has a GLORIFIED BODY AKA SPIRITUAL BODY and one day we will too. FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/19

//Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically//- kathr44666.

Yes JW's do, and so does Apostle Peter: "For Christ... being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"- 1Pe.3:18. (RSV)

Jesus was neither God nor angel when on earth but a human being. He was "made "lower than the angels" (Jo.1:14, Heb.2:7,9). Thus, Jesus was able to die completely.

But in Kathr44666 bizaare world "God the flesh" died while "God the Spirit" was still alive in heaven! "God the flesh" was resurrected in the flesh, returned to heaven to meet up with "God the Spirit"!!

I know... it's beyond ridiculous.
---David8318 on 8/30/19

Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other, as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Colossians 3:12,13
---JS1234 on 8/30/19

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2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.........4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/19

David8318, what did you stop short only quoting Romans 5:12? The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO have received the gift of righteousness that is only IN CHRIST.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
---kath453 on 8/30/19

David8318, I believe Linda a day or so ago answered that question. 2 Corinthians 5. But I'm not sure how your JW book has rewritten the original. I know it is a sin for you to even look at any other translation, much less be here on line, knowing too your taught understanding is totally different than mainstream Christianity, you would argue and find fault no matter what anyone showed you. So knowing this fact about your organization, it is a waste of time ...unless you are actually open to the truth. I don't see that you are. But I will continue to pray the Lord God will open your heart and mind. Unfortunately that usually takes some tragedy to happen before you begin to question.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/19

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable if anything is excellent or praiseworthy think about such things.

Philippians 4:8
---JS1234 on 8/30/19

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//Paul... teaches absent from the body// - kathr44666

Please find one scripture where Paul speaks of being "absent from the body".

Nowhere does Paul speak of being "absent from the body".

Simple truth from Ezekiel 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". (KJV)

Also Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (NIV)

Where do any of these verses say a "soul" is "absent" from the body? NONE!

Kathr666 says we have an immortal soul, therefore we don't need Christ's death. This is the anti-Christ teaching!
---David8318 on 8/30/19


Using pejoratives like "kathr666" is childish. Christians should do better. By the Golden Rule, you should never mock someone and call them the devil unless you WANT others to do the SAME to YOU.

You say she "obviously" doesn't believe Jesus died. She has never said that. You just infer it with convoluted JW logic.

If Jesus can't be God because God can't die, Jesus can't be Michael, because angels can't die. Using arguments that destroy your own position is poor debating strategy.

JWs believe Jesus is not God but merely "a god", despite God's First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". If he's not God, he's a rival we should have nothing to do with.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/19

Yes awesome scripture that needs to include verses 23-25. Verses I'll bet are not in the JW book and orginization that has dictated to them where they are still today in bondage not only to sin, but to a group of men who run the Watchtower that controls them.

Galatians 5:22-25

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. explained in Romans 6-8.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/19

And NO, it's not nice at all to call someone anti_Christ on line here or if you go to someone's door hoping to recruit them. If you go to someone's door, and they simply say, "I'm sorry, I believe Jesus is God in the flesh, and I believe in the Trinity", and you start flailing your arms and start spitting ..666 anti- Christ ect, don't be surprised if the owners call the police on you. And if your words and behavior here are an example of what we are to expect next from this orginization the fan out in our neighborhoods ....don't open the door, because it's just as violent and aggressive as many cults we are seeing this day and age.
---kathr453 on 8/30/19

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David8318, my prayer for you us to be set free from the stronghold this orginization has over you. That you would take time to read the real bible, not the one JW's made up. That you would seek the truth and educate yourself on all the false prophecy of the many dates the world was going to end, and how many lives were ruined by believing these lies.

God never set an organization over His children to isolate them, causing a higher risk of mental illness and suicides because of the isolation and also disfellowshipping, a cruel practice only seen in seriously dangerous cults. Please pray about it before it's too late.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/19

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...
---JS1234 on 8/29/19

But kathr666 doesn't believe Jesus died because she believes Jesus is "AlmightyGod" who cannot died. And how can Jesus be 'God' and 'mediator' at the same time!? Think about it!!
---David8318 on 8/29/19

NO actually it's DAVID8316 who doesn't believe Jesus/ God incarnate died, because David doesn't understand Jesus was fully God and fully man. You believe Jesus was fully man only, yet say He is Michael the Arch Angel...where Angels can't die.

I don't have an issue with the WORD made flesh for the suffering of death. Hebrews 2.....

So please stop using your faulty understanding to accuse others of things you simply don't believe based on YOUR false doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 8/29/19


Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically.

OUR BIBLE SHOWS the resurrected Jesus asserted that he was not merely a spirit but had a flesh-and-bone body Luke 24:39, John 2:19-21, He ate food on several occasions, proving that he had a genuine physical body after the resurrection Luke 24:30, 42-43, John 21:12-13

This was confirmed by his followers who physically touched him Matt. 28:9, John 20:17

And He was seen ascending to heaven 40 days after His bodily resurrection , and OUR BIBLE says He will descend to Earth the way He ascended. Acts 1:1-12.

His second coming EVERY EYE WILL SEE.
---kat453 on 8/29/19

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If I died today, seeing Jesus died and rose again to take away my SIN so that my soul will not die, but LIVE. The wages of sin is death...but THE GIFT OF GOD through Jesus Christ is LIFE.

Death is swallowed up in victory. Now we can disagree on that Samuel, as we have often, but i don't remember any name calling someone the anti_Christ. The warning of anti_Christ has nothing to do with whether one believes their soul is immortal when we put on Christ...CHRIST IN YOU...because the Spirit of the LIFE of Christ who dies no more has set me free from the law of sin and death. Paul teaches we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit if we are Christs. So exactly what did you think Romans 6-8 is all about????
---kathr4453 on 8/29/19

I don't normally insult them either, however being called the anti-christ has changed here how David8316 is a STUPID raving lunatic who has no clue what anti-christ actually means and stands for. it does not stand for anyone who believes in the Trinity or that our soul is not extinguished at death. and no scripture ever supports such an accusation. When people abuse the Word of God as a weapon to attack another..that clearly is wirchcraft.

If David 8316 continues to use witchcraft tactics here towards another HE NEEDS TO BE CALLED OUT.
---kat453 on 8/29/19

//So do,they believe in Hebrews 12:24// - kathr44666.

Yes JW's do, but obviously kathr44666 doesn't.

Heb.12:24, "Jesus the mediator of a new covenant" (NIV).

How does Jesus mediate the new covenant and for what reason?

Hebrews 9:15, "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant... now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant" (NIV).

Christ is mediator on the basis of his death, to set us free from sin and death.

But kathr666 doesn't believe Jesus died because she believes Jesus is "AlmightyGod" who cannot died. And how can Jesus be 'God' and 'mediator' at the same time!? Think about it!!
---David8318 on 8/29/19

The JW do have false beliefs. But I never insults them. That is not the way of love.

I do agree with the doctrine of Conditionalism. You can look it up on Wikipedia.

The Bible says that we are a soul. That is true.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Also the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

Matthew 10:28 the soul will be destroyed.

All I ask is you look it up and study. Research Professor Edward Fudge and his work on the doctrine of hell. He is neither a JW or a SDA.

Pray and seek truth. LOve GOD LOVE others follow Jesus.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/29/19

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//if you died today, what happens to your SOUL?//- kathr446665

Kathr44666 previously quoted 1Cor.15:45, "The first man Adam was made a living soul".

So what does kathr44666 believe happened to Adam when he died? Is Adam "absent from his body"?

Where did Adam go when he died? Answer:

Genesis 3:19, "for dust you are and to dust you will return". (NIV)

Romans 5:12 confirms that Adam's decendants have the same fate: "sin entered the world through one man [Adam]... death came to all people, because all sinned". (NIV)

God and JW's teach: "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". (Eze.18:4)

Satan and kathr666: "you will not die". (Gen.3:4)
---David8318 on 8/29/19


after David8316's vicious attack that anyone who believes in God Father Son and Holy Spirit, along with Believing Jesus THE WORD is GOD spew foul mouth hate that anyone who believes THE REAL SCRIPTURES are anti-Christ must be a real WARNING not to even open the door or allow these foul mouth Cult people on your property. I dont know of any CULT so violently aggressive towards others who dispute their false doctrine they revise at every turn, also believing the Rapture took place and we are now living in the 1000 year reign where God wipes the wicked off the earth...SHOULD MAKE ANYONES HAIR STAND ON END, as they see themselves as Gods instrument of wiping out the wicked. These people are DANGEROUS.
---kath453 on 8/29/19

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
---RichardC on 8/29/19

AND seeing themselves delusional that we are living the 1000 year reign right now WITHOUT JESUS here, and that they are Gods instrument to wipe out all evil where THEY rule the earth, IS ant-Christ sitting on a throne as if THEY were God.

And because they want to distract from that fact...they say YOU are anti-Christ without even knowing What the anti-Christ is and does.

David8316 has mental issues too, seeing he rants false accusations about things he just makes up. so delusional. He is a LIAR like his father SATAN.

David8316, your rantings do not bother me, BUT i wanted you to show your real self here AGAIN as you have so we can all see your vicious unchristlike rants.
---kat453 on 8/29/19

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David8318, your answer is found in 2 Corinthians 5 in the Holy Bible. Kathr4453 did not make that up. What kind of Book do the JW use in place of the Holy Bible? That may be your problem. I would suggest reading the Holy Bible before showing yourself unlearned of the very basics of Christianity, if you want to debate Christianity. We believe Jesus saved our souls from death. The Holy Bible is where we find these truths.

Your beliefs are not founded on the Holy Scriptures. It is not in your best interest to promote the false prophets of the JW. We are warned to reject any teachings of false prophets.
---Linda on 8/29/19

//absent from the body//- kathr44666

Kathr44666 must be absent from the mind!

Kathr666 doesn't believe the Bible when it says "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"- Ezek.18:4 (KJV)

Kathr666 doesn't believe God when he told Adam, "for dust you are and to dust you will return". Instead, kathr44666 comes up with a crazy mad belief that Adam is somehow "absent from the body". Where on earth does kathr666 get this rubbish from?

Why is it "antichrist" for JW's to disbelieve a mad, crazed kathr666 who believes in being "absent from the body". I'm sure kathr666 has been sucking the angel dust again and having hallucinatory 'out of body' experiences.
---David8318 on 8/29/19


Jehovahs Witnesses believe that when Jesus was born on earth, he was a mere human and not God in human flesh.This violates the biblical teaching that in the incarnate Jesus, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily Col. 2:9, Phil. 2:6-7. Therefore, the incarnate Jesus was the sum total of the nature, being, and attributes of God in bodily form.

SOOOOO Jesus AKA *Immanuel* meaning God with us Matt. 1:23, Isa. 7:14, John 1:1, 14, 18, 10:30, 14:9-10.


anti-Christ is not believing in the Triune God, anti-Christ is believing someone something other than God is Christ. Ignorance throws around the term like its a bullet meant to kill. SO IGNORANT
---kathr4453 on 8/29/19

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