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Believers Use Contraception

Is it okay for believers to use contraception? Artificially inseminate? Freeze embryos?

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 ---JS1234 on 9/28/19
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No.

They are trying to act like God.

Only God give life.

Freezing Embryos is horrible.

ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS.

HE IS KIND AND MERCIFUL.

HE WILL FORGIVE.

No one would want another person to suspend our lives until they are READY to allow us to continue our life.

God doesn't even behave that way.

Just because we are capable of doing so, it doesn't give us the permission from God.

We are also capable of killing someone.

MERCY is God's 2ND NAME
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/13/19


JS1234, God Bless you.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/19


Kath

Our conversation is over. I hope you have a good day and God bless you. I'm going on to other things now.
---JS1234 on 10/3/19


JS1234, I was just playing on your comfort zone. You find being facetious, also known as being flippant towards others posts you proudly admitted to, as OK, never apologizing ....yet Yelp when one then just meets you at your level.

If you want to bring it up to a higher level of respect, I can do that too. The ball has always been in your court. Shall we converse then on a higher level? I'd love that. It also would be a huge improvement if you also apologized, rather than add another condescending comment instead like saying "God Bless you" in place of saying "I APOLOGIZE". That just didn't work for me.
---kathr4453 on 10/3/19


This is what the Word of God says,

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

It doesn't say Gumby became a human being.

So MAN aka Human was first formed out of the dust AND THEN God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and MAN aka HUMAN became a living SOUL.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/19




Kathr, if you are going to use negative characterizations when you refer to me, I will just end this conversation. I have not done this with you, and I will ask you not to do it with me. Thank you.
---JS1234 on 10/2/19


Js1234, another who can't read. Adam was the ONLY HUMAN GOD PERSONALLY BREATHED THE BREATH OF LIFE IN. It's right there in Genesis.

If you disagree, show other verses where God is personally breathing into every single embryo or whatever.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/19


JS1234 it does bring up the age old question.....if God is breathing life into every human, and we know those in the womb are not able to breath through their nostrils until outside the womb, is JS saying life begins after one leaves the womb and is able to take that first breath of life. AND what about those babies who never take that breath of life....should we blame God for those born WITHOUT A SOUL. Seems like this is what JS1234 wants to say here.

His facetious comments just may get him into more trouble than he asked for.

SO JS1234 says God breaths LIFE and a SOUL into every living human personally , and those who are stillborn have no soul because God didn't breath life into them.?????
THATS NUTS!
---kat453 on 10/2/19


\\
Also with Adam, he was completely formed before God breathed into him. So it didn't take his soul first to help him grow. \\

When Adam's physical body was formed, it took God's breathing the breath of life and into him and giving Adam that made him become a human being.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/2/19


So Adam wass the only human being who ever received the Breath of Life. I had no idea...
---JS1234 on 10/1/19




What we need to understand is God breathed into Adam, and no where is God forming man out of the dust of the earth after that breathing into man the breath of life. God told man to procreate and fill the earth.

Also with Adam, he was completely formed before God breathed into him. So it didn't take his soul first to help him grow.

So even with that, we can't compare Adam with other humans.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/19


\\Now with Mary, that is a different issue, since the Word preexisted and was made flesh.\\

In His human nature, Jesus had a human soul.

Otherwise, He would not be fully human.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/19


Anyway, the Bible doesn't say when the fetus receives its soul. And it does not receive the breath of life until it is born.
---JS1234 on 10/1/19


I believe in humans and with some animals that the sperm meet egg the same way...and since we see animals without souls develope , I don't believe in humans the soul is necessary for development. However to be human the soul is absolutely necessary.

Surprised that was so complicated for some here. It's just a matter of biology.

Now with Mary, that is a different issue, since the Word preexisted and was made flesh. But since we did not preexist as souls before conception, Cluny's theory is only a theory. He is dead to me, however I can answer questions here regardless of who asks them without getting personally involved with the asker.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/19


Cluny

I just threw that in there to show what some medieval people thought. I do understand that it is not what the Orthodox teach.
---JS1234 on 10/1/19


I'm sure there are many THEORIES out there. Are they worth anything?
---kathr4453 on 10/1/19


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\\ When we see animals where many conceive the same way humans do, do not have or need a soul to cause anything to develope.\\

Humans are not animals, kath. Nowhere in the Creation account does God breathe the breath of life into them.

In any case, I thought I was dead to you. Please make up your mind.

JS, interesting point. However, Thomas Acquinas was not Orthodox, and people really didn't know modern embryology.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 10/1/19


I found this online, for whatever it's worth..

"Although Jesus may have been exceptional, Aquinas did believe that the embryo first possessed a vegetative soul, later acquired sensitive (animal) soul, and after 40 days of development, God gave humans a rational soul."
---JS1234 on 9/30/19


And I DID say that Orthodox teaching is that the presence of the soul causes the physical body to develop to start with, just as its absence is physical death.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/19

What is Gods teaching though . I don't see the above backed up with scripture. When we see animals where many conceive the same way humans do, do not have or need a soul to cause anything to develope. Nor is the absence of a soul mean they are born dead.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/19


==What you say about the Orthodox teaching (about expelled zygotes never being ensouled) directly contradicts the common talking point "life begins at conception",==

I never said that expelled zygotes were never ensouled was Orthodox teaching.

I said that PERHAPS these were never ensouled.

And I DID say that Orthodox teaching is that the presence of the soul causes the physical body to develop to start with, just as its absence is physical death.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/19


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Cluny:

I'm not sure how Nova determined it. You'd probably need to watch the show. I have seen the same or similar statistics (some higher, some lower) mentioned in many other places as well.

What you say about the Orthodox teaching (about expelled zygotes never being ensouled) directly contradicts the common talking point "life begins at conception", unless you admit that "conception" really means "implantation" and not "fertilization" (which is a sensible position I have heard before). But once you do that, it also means that anti-implantation methods and devices aren't murder, because "life" hasn't started yet.
---StrongAxe on 9/30/19


Thanks for the info, StrongAxe. I was thinking about the older forms of the IUD, that set up an infection in the uterus that prevented implantation, and hence is abortifacient.

And how did NOVA determine that 50% of the zygotes fail to implant?

The Orthodox Church teaches that the presence of the soul gets the physical body to develop during gestation, remember that death is their separation.

Perhaps these expelled zygotes were never ensouled.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/19


Cluny:

I just looked it up minutes before I posted that. There are three types:

Hormonal devices release estrogen, tricking the body into thinking it's pregant, preventing ovulation. This is like The Pill, but local, so without the side-effects.

Copper IUDs release copper ions that impede sperm travel, preventing fertilization. (Tt IS possible to use one for emergency contraception up to five days after sex, but that's not their normal use.)

Passive devices (like SSR) are hostile to both sperm and implantation, but are not approved in the U.S.


From PBS: Nova: "Life's Greatest Miracle", Nov. 20. 2001:
"It's estimated that more than 50 percent of all fertilized eggs fail to develop."
---StrongAxe on 9/29/19


\\IUDs prevents fertilization.\\

Actually, they do not.

They prevent implantation.

||However, 50%+ of fertilized eggs naturally fail to implant, so this just does what Nature does more than half the time anyway. \\

You've said this several times.

How has this been determined?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/19


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Cluny:

IUDs prevents fertilization. Plan B mostly does too, although it may also prevent implantation. However, 50%+ of fertilized eggs naturally fail to implant, so this just does what Nature does more than half the time anyway. RU486 induces abortion.

There are many valid reasons besides health to not have children. A couple may not have the means to support more children than they already have. They may wish to become eduacted and get better jobs to be better able to support children later in reasonable standard of living. It is presumptuous to make blanket value judgments about people without knowing thier specific situations.

IVF may be the only option for some couples who want children, but normal means don't work.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/19


Some forms of contraception, such as the IUD or certain formulations of the Pill, are actually abortifacient, and therefore immoral ipso facto.

The real issue is just why a given couple is using contraception.

Obviously, for a normal healthy couple to refuse to have children is selfish.

OTOH, there may be serious medical reasons why they should be using it for a greater or shorter length of time.

I don't think IVF is a good idea, but I can't absolutely condemn a couple who tries it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/29/19


Okay, I will withdraw the question.
---JS1234 on 9/29/19


JS1234, are you personally planning on utilizing any of the above? IF SO, I would suggest asking the Lord for His direction rather than getting several different opinions that will end up in an argument here.

If perhaps one has cancer and chooses to freeze anything until the treatment is over is really no ones business. OR if having MORE children woud put ones life at risk and they choose a form of contraception again is no ones business.

You don't seem like the kind who asks a loaded question for the sake of seeing a food fight here online. I believe we all already know how the RCC and possible Orthodox believe.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/19


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Scripture doesn't say anything about these things, but it does mention using surrogates to bear children for women who are not otherwise able to have them. This was common practice in the old days, and Abraham and Sarah and Hagar is one example of this, and Jacob and his two wives and their two handmaids was another. (This is not to say that such arrangements always work out well - as in my first example, but it WAS a common practice, and God never said anything bad about it per se.)
---StrongAxe on 9/29/19


I will be interested in finding out what you think about these things.
---JS1234 on 9/28/19


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