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If Jehovah's Witnesses were REALLY intellectually honest in their devotion to God's original name being used, they would leave the Tetragrammaton untranslated, as is, in Hebrew, in their own translation, just as they point out for some LXX manuscripts, and they conjecture about early NT manuscripts that no longer exist.
---StrongAxe on 1/24/20


//My issue is why do translators insist on changing and removing God's name when translating from Hebrew to English.//'

The real question is whether "Jehovah" was God's personal name to start with.

Since it isn't, there is really no difference between using it and using LORD (all in caps) in English.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/24/20


David831:

He said what his name was, NOT that it was ESSENTIAL to address him name, rather than title.

Only Jehovah's Witnesses insist on this, and despite choking on this gnat, THEY WRITE AND PRONOUNCE IT IN WAYS THEY KNOW ARE INCORRECT. Why? Because the incorrect name is more popular?!

Give me a break! Either the name is important, or it isn't. If it's important, you should be ACCURATE, and you blaspheme by knowingly teaching others to use an INCORRECT NAME. If it isn't, you lay burdens on everyone else God himself never laid, making you hypocrites.

So, are you blasphemers or hypocrites? Choose one.

Many also abandon JW and their cultic ways.
---StrongAxe on 1/23/20


No it's not JW's who insist. It's Jehovah God who insists.

God said at Isaiah 42:8,

"I am Jehovah, that is my name" (ASV, Darby, Youngs, Byington, plus others).

StrongAxe (and his cohort Cluny) insist you can play loose with God's name, and change it to LORD, effectively removing God's name altogether.

We find many people in our ministry who never knew God had a personal name directly because of mis-translations such as the KJV (now the NewKJV) which remove God's name [YHWH] all 6973 times!

In fact, many abandon the pagan trinity dogma and start worshipping Jehovah when they discover God's name!
---David831 on 1/23/20


I'm willing to do this, David.

If a translation team were to ask me, I would say that for the sake of weaker brethren who would be offended at the omission of Jehovah from the OT, Use either it or YHVH for the Tetragrammaton.

How's that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/23/20




//Afterall, Orthodoxy is simply Catholicism without a Pope.//

If you think that, you clearly know nothing about either church.

Following the precedent set by the KJV, the NKJV in the OT uses LORD all in capitals for YHVH.

You've been told this repeatedly.

Whether this is a good idea can be debated.

FWIW, the form "Jehovah" is from Latin. Curiously YHVH sounds like the other Latin name for the king of the deities, JOVE.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/23/20


I haven't insisted on anything. My issue is why do translators insist on changing and removing God's name when translating from Hebrew to English.

NewKJV has no issue translating Yeshua to Jesus. Why does the NewKJV ( & others) play loose with YHWH? Why does the NewKJV not use Yahweh or Jehovah? They now remove "JEHOVAH" completely from new editions. WHY?

StrongAxe hypocritically points to one word in the NWT ('other' at Col.1:16) when the Bible he promotes plus many others remove and change God's name 6973 times!!

StrongAxe squeezes out the knat ("you use other"), but gulps down the camel by ignoring 6973 deliberate mistakes in trinitarian translations.
---David8318 on 1/23/20


//child abuse//- Cluny.

Do you defend the child abuse that exists in the Orthodox church?

Everyone knows all about the rampant child abuse in the Catholic church. Afterall, Orthodoxy is simply Catholicism without a Pope.

Jehovah's Witnesses defend themselves from any child abusers by expelling them, using the scriptural practice of disfellowshipping- 1Cor.5:13.

The Catholic church however hide their pedophile priests by moving them to different diocese so that they can evade capture and carry on with their filthy practices.

Does the Orthodox church hide pedophile priests?

JW's are a global organisation. There is no war or racism inside JW's- Jo.13:34,35.
---David831 on 1/23/20


David8318:

I don't "advocate" changing anything. I say YOUR insistence that WE use a particular form, which is inaccurate, is hypocritical.

I have no problem with "Jehovah", "Yahweh", "Lord", or "God". Everyone knows whom we mean.

It is YOU Jehovah's Witnesses who INSIST on using God's actual name, and condemn anyone else who does not. Because of this, YOU should be held to YOUR OWN self-imposed standards.

YOU all know "Jehovah" is inaccurate, but use it it because it's "better known". However, you replace better-known words like "bishop" by "overseer", so you're not even consistent in your preference for better-known terms.
---StrongAxe on 1/22/20


David, do you defend the racism and child abuse that exists in the JWs?

You might want to look up these subjects.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/22/20




//"Howard", yet some people called you "Harold"//- StrongAxe.

What's more disgusting is StrongAxe wouldn't use Howard's name at all!

Like a delinquent teenager, StrongAxe would call Howard "Oj you!", or "oj mister"!

StrongAxe knows God's name. He knows it is derived from the Hebrew consonants YHWH. Either Yahweh or Jehovah will do. But StrongAxe follows those who remove and twist scripture 6973 times by substituting God's name for the inappropriate 'Lord' or 'God' titles.

Howard would be even more disgusted with StrongAxe if he deliberately chose not to use his name and substituted it for something inferior.

I wonder how God feels about his name being removed? (Re.22:19)
---David831 on 1/22/20


//Mussolini and Hitler were not practicing any religion//- Cluny.

I haven't said they were practicing any religion. What the RCC is completely guilty of is giving these fascists support and credence. The RCC is absolutely complicit in supporting fascist characters who brought death and misery to millions during the last century.

Like Hitler, Mussolini signed a concordat with the Catholic church because these fascists knew gaining the support of the RCC was imperative to spreading their anti-semitic filth.

If the Jehovah's Witnesses had signed up to these fascist thugs the same way the RCC did, I wonder if Cluny would be so apologetic to the JW's?
---David8318 on 1/22/20


Napoleon was seeking to SECULARIZE Europe, not Catholicize it.

Mussolini and Hitler were not practicing any religion when they were in power.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/18/20


Thank you for your posting, David.

We all know that the JW's and similar groups NEVER spin (or outright falsify) history about the Roman Catholic Church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/17/20


Eat with friends. Share gifts. Be grateful.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/15/20


//RCC making an agreement with Hitler was under duress//- StrongAxe.

Absolute rubbish! That's straight out of the RCC apologists text book.

Throughout history, the Vatican and various high ranking Catholic figures such as Charlemagne, Otto the Great, Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler have participated in nearly all of Europes bloodiest, most destructive conflicts!

//behaviors OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE//

Well at least JW's refuse to go to war and slaughter their brothers and sisters- unlike some who have shamelessly gone to war and killed members of their own churches!

JW's obey Christ's command to "have [agape] love among themselves"- Jo.13:34,35.
---David8318 on 1/15/20


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David831:

RCC making an agreement with Hitler was under duress - it was either that or be destroyed. 1st century Christians made a different choice w.r.t. burning incense to Caesar, but it doesn't imply trust.

It had NOTHING to do with my friend. I went to their meetings. I read their books, and I owned enough of them that it took over a cubic foot to store them. From what OF THEIR OWN WRITINGS that I read, and from the behaviors OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, and the actions OF THEIR OWN ORGANIZATION, condemning others for doing certain things yet doing exactly the same things themselves, that led me to walk away.

I also do not apologize for RCC. I grew up Catholic and also left them.
---StrongAxe on 1/14/20


//Do YOU trust Hitler's judgment?//- StrongAxe.

Obviously the RCC did! Otherwise they would not have had anything to do with him. They wouldnt have signed any concordat with Hitler and he would have been a footnote in some obscure history book in a back street library.

//a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness//

So StrongAxe leap is "my JW friend was saying and doing something wrong, therefore JW theology is error".
Was it anything like the RCC supporting Hitler in the 1930s? Would StrongAxe be so apologetic to the JW's as he is toward the RCC if JW's had given support to Hitler the same way the RCC did?

I would not want to be an apologist to any group whose leaders gave open tacit support to the Nazi's.
---David831 on 1/14/20


//some Catholics followed Hitler. Therefore, Trinitarian theology is evil//- StrongAxe.

I have not said this at all.

StrongAxe misnomer that it was "some Catholics". No!! It was the Catholic Hierarchy that gave the Nazi regime legitimacy. There is a case for collective responsibility here. It was not a case of RCC leaders denouncing Hitler while "some Catholics" supported him. That's StrongAxe fallacy. It was RCC policy from the Vatican down that supported Hitler while "some Catholics" denounced him.

If RCC leaders had been practicing true Christian teachings of love rather than false teachings (like the trinity), I'm sure we would all have been spared WWII (Jo.13:34,35).
---David8318 on 1/14/20


StrongAxe
If you think Betrayal, was a sign of their love for God,...well Okay then.
---David on 1/14/20


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David:

You wrote: What makes you believe Lucifer and Judas loved God, when both of them betrayed God?

God loved Lucifer. He was the greatest of the angels.

Why would Judas have stayed with Jesus if he didn't love him? Jesus wasn't rich. Yes, he was popular, but his popularity was dangerous as it was attracting unwanted hostility from the Pharisees (and worse, the Romans).

In the garden, he betrayed Jesus with a kiss - which was supposed to be a secret signal to the Romans (that Jesus figured out anyway). You don't just go up to someone and kiss them unless there is already a degree of mutual affection.
---StrongAxe on 1/13/20


There are people in loving relationships with God, and still fall away. Look at Lucifer and Judas.
---StrongAxe


StrongAxe
What makes you believe Lucifer and Judas loved God, when both of them betrayed God?
---David on 1/13/20


David:

The problem is that EVERY religion believes that it is teaching the truth, regardless of whether they're Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecastal, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, or anything else.

We end up with the curious double-think where many people think it's perfectly fine to force their own children to go to Sunday School, but at the same time believe that other people forcing their own religions on THEIR own children is harmful brainwashing.

There are people in loving relationships with God, and still fall away. Look at Lucifer and Judas.
---StrongAxe on 1/12/20


I was forced to go to school and even the doctor. Ain't it awful!---Cluny

Cluny
There is nothing wrong with forcing a child to to church,...IF that church teaches the Truth. A Truth that will lead one into a relationship with God. The Churches I attended, caused me to go astray.

If I had been in a loving relationship with God, like the one I have now, do you think that could have happened?

Look at all the Great men and women of the Bible, those in a relationship with God the Father. Did they go astray? No...and why not? Because they loved God as a child loves a Father.
---David on 1/12/20


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Cluny:

There is a very big difference there. Religion depends on faith. If you go to church but don't believe, it profits you nothing.

Medicine depends on science. It will cure you whether you believe in it or not.
---StrongAxe on 1/11/20


StrongAxe
Thank you, for sharing your story.

That night, when I knelt before God, I prayed...and asked God to forgive me for my sins, and to just show me the way. I believed in God, but I just didnt understand who God was. And to be honest, I really didnt believe anything would happen.

I got up, and noticed Joy had replaced the depression I had felt before the prayer. Though I was ignorant of why it happened, I just wanted that Joy to continue. So I continued in this practice everyday.

I began to feel guilt when I would sin, and for the joy the Lord had placed in my heart, I wanted to please him. Somewhere during this time, I realized I was keeping his commandments of out love. Seven months later,...I was born of God.
---David on 1/11/20


//
I was one of those people who were forced to go to church as children, //

I was forced to go to school and even the doctor.

Ain't it awful!

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/11/20


David:

I was raised Catholic, at around age 8, I lost my faith after asking a few questions that our priest was unable or unwilling to answer, so also became a child who was forced to go to church.

My interest in God re-awakened when I was 20, curiously enough under the influence of a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness, but after hanging out when them for about a year, there were so many things they were doing and saying that just seemed wrong (e.g. criticizing other Christians for doing things that they themselves were doing) so I got out of that particular error and found more reasonable expressions of Christian faith elsewhere.
---StrongAxe on 1/10/20


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StrongAxe
I was one of those people who were forced to go to church as children, every Sunday mornings and every Sunday night. My parents were Protestants, and we went to many different denominations.

Notice I said...My parents were Protestants. My attendance was their desire, not mine. So as an unwilling participant, not wanting to learn, I didnt. On my 41st birthday I had a midlife crisis, and tearfully, on my knees, asked God to show me the way. And he did.

Know this.
If you seek God for yourself, you will find the way. If you seek it through man, you will be lost.
---David on 1/10/20


David:

(I assume you are not the same person as David8318 and/or David831)

Since you say that you are not familiar with either JW teachings or Trinity teachings, I'm curious what Christian background you come from?
---StrongAxe on 1/9/20


Roman Catholic clergy and religious were put in death camps and executed by the Nazis, too.

Did you know that?

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/9/20


How many times must the Bible say something for it to be true?---Cluny

Cluny
You need more than one verse to understand its Context. And BTW, I am ignorant of many JW teachings, except what I have learned here on CN.

And you may be right about my ignorance of your Trinity teachings.
So give me your definition, so I can see if I am.
---David on 1/9/20


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David831:

I didn't say you did. I said your logical leap "some Catholics followed Hitler. Therefore, Trinitarian theology is evil" is just as flawed as "some men followed Hitler. Therefore all men are evil".

May Catholics gave lip service to Hitler openly (to avoid being arrested and killed), which allowed them to work against him in secret.

Just because Hitler "interpreted" it to mean something, does not mean it actually meant that. Do YOU trust Hitler's judgment?

In countries where Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted, how many defy their governments openly and get arrested? Instead, they work in secret. Just as early Christians did mostly, hence the secret IXTHUS sign.
---StrongAxe on 1/9/20


//Some men followed Hitler//- StrongAxe.

I'm not saying "Some men followed Hitler". The Catholic Church Hierarchy followed Hitler, gave Hitler credence, gave the Nazi regime legitimacy, and predominantly Catholic countries hid Nazi war criminals post World War II.

There is clear evidence Eugenio Pacelli (known as Pope Pius XII) along with Von Papen, "signed a concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich on July 20, 1933... Hitler interpreted the concordat to mean that he had won the church's approval, thereby gaining international recognition of his Nazi regime" America Magazine.

We can thank the RCC for giving legitimacy to Hitler's Nazi party. The rest is history.
---David831 on 1/8/20


David8318:

That was NOT because they were Trinitarians, but because even though they claimed to follow Christ, their words and deeds were far away from everything he taught.

Whether you believe Jesus is co-equal with the Father or not, that has nothing to do with whether you feed the hungry, comfort the sick, clothe the naked, turn the other cheek, forgive your enemies, and walk the extra mile.

Again, you have a false correlation, like "Some men followed Hitler. Therefore, all men are evil."

Some priests followed Hitler (just as today many evangelicals follow Trump), but there are also many in both cases who did not. Many Catholics and Protestants were murdered by Hitler for working against him.
---StrongAxe on 1/8/20


//NOTHING in Trinitarian theology itself that teaches slaughter//- StrongAxe.

They certainly did not teach love during the 2 World Wars!

Anyone only has to look up Hitler and Catholic priests on any internet search, click on images and you will find an array of pictures from the 2nd World War of trinitarians dressed up as Catholic priests sucking up to the Nazi leader Hitler, even giving him the Nazi salute.

There were trinitarian (Catholic and Protestant) Chaplains and padre's blessing troops on both sides! It was important for Satan's political system to have false religion on board to send the masses to war.

There was no Christian "love" shown by trinitarians (Jo.13:34,35).
---David8318 on 1/8/20


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//.and for many, that seems to be enough to support the Trinity doctrine. //

How many times must the Bible say something for it to be true?

In any case, I wonder if you know just what the "Trinity doctrine" is as believed by a mature, instructed Christian.

The warped version of the Watchtower isn't it.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!
---Cluny on 1/8/20


Jesus saith unto Mary, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father, and to MY God, and YOUR God."---Steveng

I agree Steven.
But Jesus said, he and the Father are one,(John 10:30),....and for many, that seems to be enough to support the Trinity doctrine.

As I have pointed out in the past, Jesus also said when a man marries, he and his wife also become one, (Matthew 19:5). But for some reason, they dont take that literally. ??
---David on 1/7/20


Jesus saith unto Mary, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY Father, and YOUR Father, and to MY God, and YOUR God."
---Steveng on 1/5/20


David831:

Living in a garage doesn't make you a car. Just because Hitler was raised Catholic, it didn't make him one. You can tell by his words and actions that he didn't believe or practice anything that Catholicism taught, and he persecuted Catholics.

Again, with perjoratives like "rabid". If you don't want others to insult you, you shouldn't insult them.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Trinitarian theology itself that teaches slaughter, so this is a false correlation. More people die in hospitals than anywhere else. Does that make them death traps? We have global warming and fewer pirates today. Does that mean eliminating piracy causes global warming? These are absurd correlations too.
---StrongAxe on 1/3/20


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//Hitler's technique... the "big lie"//- Cluny.

Hitler was a confirmed Catholic so no doubt was a proponent of your "big lie" the trinity, using papal knights (noteably Von Papen) to prop up his regime and give him the power base he needed.

Of course, if we didn't have these rabid trinitarians, we would have been spared the slaughter seen in World Wars I & II!

//repeating wrong things//

Whether I am right or wrong is beside the point. Neither yourself or any other trinitarian has been able to explain (using scripture) how "God" in the form of Jesus can die- God is eternal.

You say Jesus "borrowed death" from his human nature. Bible chapter and verse please!
---David831 on 1/2/20


//You don't believe Jesus died because you believe Jesus is "God" who cannot die.//

Keep on repeating wrong things, and maybe some time you will believe it yourself.

This was Hitler's technique for something he called the "big lie".

The Orthodox Church teaches that in the Passion, Jesus "borrowed death" from His human nature, something alien to him in His divine nature.

Christ is born! Glorify Him.
---Cluny on 1/1/20


First we give each other gifts and work to feed hungry people. We also have some friends in trouble. We helped them.

We also work to remind people Jesus is the one we are to follow.
---Samuelbb7 on 1/1/20


//You prove(laughing) that Jesus was born in September but can not tell me when John was born, why?//- Ruben.

Seriously! Ruben is incapable of taking 6 months off September?

Why is the birth of John so important anyway?

The difference between me and Ruben is that my point of reference is the scripture at Luke 1:5 which gives the start point- "the Division of Abijah".

Ruben's point of reference is the pagan holy day December 25. Ruben reasons Jesus was born Dec.25, therefore John must have been born late June (laugh).

Ruben needs to put down his Walmart xmas cards and start reading the Bible.
---David831 on 12/31/19


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//Wrong in all three of these sentences//- Cluny.

No. I am correct.

You don't believe Jesus died because you believe Jesus is "God" who cannot die.

It's no good telling people "You're wrong". Show me where I am wrong!

You don't believe Jesus died because you say he was "God". God is eternal and cannot die. You don't believe Jesus died and was raised because you teach he was "God incarnate".
---David8318 on 12/31/19


//9 months from March 25th//- Nicole.

Luke 1:5,26 says Jesus was born 15 months after 'the division of Abijah'.

The 24 priestly divisions which served at the temple began serving immediately after the 'Festival of Booths' which closed the Israelites agricultural year (Lev.23:34-43). The Festival of Booths occurred in the month of Tishri (Sept-Oct). The 'division of Abijah' was the 8th division.

The first round of 24 priestly divisions plus the 8 courses of the annual second round (plus the joint-service period of 2 of the 3 festivals) would extend into the next Jewish year's fourth month, Tammuz. This means Gabriel appeared to Zechariah in late June or early July (Lu.1:13).

Jesus was born 15 months later.
---David8318 on 12/30/19


//Are you making my point about the pagan Egyptian incarnation dogma more valid?//

Wrong again.

I'm making MY point about the CHRISTIAN incarnation dogma more valid.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/19


And you base this assumption on what... your belief Jesus was born on December 25? Therefore you conclude John must have been born late June? Seriously!

What scriptural evidence have you got to show John was born late June? The only "evidence" you have for a late June birth for John is your belief Jesus was born on the pagan holy day December 25! Sorry but that's pathetic!?
---David8318 on 12/30/19

And you want me to believe your man made interpretation of scripture?

You prove(laughing) that Jesus was born in September but can not tell me when John was born, why?

Are you claiming to be infallible in scripture?
---Ruben on 12/30/19


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//He was born in late June//- Ruben.

And you base this assumption on what... your belief Jesus was born on December 25? Therefore you conclude John must have been born late June? Seriously!

What scriptural evidence have you got to show John was born late June? The only "evidence" you have for a late June birth for John is your belief Jesus was born on the pagan holy day December 25! Sorry but that's pathetic!

What are you guided by!? The December 25 pagan holy day or the scriptures?

Why is knowing when John was born important to you anyway?
---David8318 on 12/30/19


//Arius, who denied that Jesus was God incarnate at all, was an Egyptian.//- Cluny.

Are you making my point about the pagan Egyptian incarnation dogma more valid?

An Egyptian has abandoned the pagan view of incarnation! Good for him! Thanks for pointing this out.

Jehovah has raised Jesus Christ, his son!
---David8318 on 12/30/19


Arius, who denied that Jesus was God incarnate at all, was an Egyptian.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/19


//When was John born??//- Ruben.

Isn't it obvious!?

Luke 1:26 tells us Gabriel appeared to Mary announcing her pregnancy with Jesus during Elizabeth's six month pregnancy with John.

There is a number in Luke 1:26 which helps you understand when John was born.
---David8318 on 12/29/19

He was born in late June...
---Ruben on 12/29/19


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//When was John born??//- Ruben.

Isn't it obvious!?

Luke 1:26 tells us Gabriel appeared to Mary announcing her pregnancy with Jesus during Elizabeth's six month pregnancy with John.

There is a number in Luke 1:26 which helps you understand when John was born.
---David8318 on 12/29/19


David8318:

You yourself was the one who first brought up the idea of "This pagan belief of "god incarnate"", so in order to address your claim that this a pagan and not Christian belief, it is very much necessary to address the nature of Jesus, and as such, that topic is germane to the topic of this blog. On the other hand, the details of that (i.e. "God" vs. "god") is not.

Regardless of what KIND of god Jesus is (whether "the God" or merely "a god"), he is still either "the God incarnate" or "a god incarnate", both of which fit within your description.
---StrongAxe on 12/29/19


Luke 1:26 says Gabriel appeared to Mary announcing her pregnancy with Jesus 6 months after Elizabeth became pregnant with John (the baptiser).

Luke 1:8 says John's father, Zechariah was serving as priest at the time of John's conception during the priestly "division of Abijah", which fell on the 4th Jewish month (or June) 1Ch.24:7-18.

Thus- Jesus was born 15 months after "the division of Abijah" (ie. 6 months of Elizabeth's + 9 months of Mary's pregnancy). Jesus was born at the end of September.

When was John born??
---David8318 on 12/25/19
---Ruben on 12/29/19


Steveng: What time of year when the shepherd tend their sheep,

( I believe that was in October, I think that's when they brought the sheep down from the hills - So Christ birth was probably about that time.. )


I don't think the celebration of Christ birth at any time of the year is a bad thing, But keep the secular part out
---RichardC on 12/28/19


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StrongAx.

Whilst I would very much enjoy discussing the nature of the Word and Jesus Christ, this is not the thread for that discussion.

Suffice to say your reasoning is flawed.

I do not believe in the pagan December 25 holy day neither do I believe in the pagan idea of "incarnation". As far as I can see the word "incarnation" does not appear in any translation.

The idea of "incarnation" and the December 25 date have both been stolen from pagans noteably ancient pagan Egypt of which the Catholic and Coptic (un)Orthodox groups have a particular fetish for.

For fear of being accused of hijacking this thread, I suggest you open a new one if you wish to discuss the nature of Jesus.
---David8318 on 12/28/19


Have the circuit overseers and the congregational elders given permission to Jehovah's Witnesses to post on this site?
---JS1234 on 12/27/19


David8318:

JWs teach that John 1:1 doesn't say "the Word was God", but rather, "the Word was a god". Since Jesus was "the Word", therefore, Jesus was "a god".

Since he was a human being, on earth, doesn't this mean he was therefore, by your own beliefs, "a god incarnate", or "a god on earth", just as the Pharaohs believed? Since your own beliefs lead to this conclusion, why do you call theirs a false claim?
---StrongAxe on 12/27/19


//December 25... wasn't until the time of Julian the Apostate//

Which is not factually or historically accurate.

The Coptic Orthodox Church in essence not only stole the ancient pagan Egyptian winter solstice celebration held on Koiak 29 (December 25/26) but the Coptics also stole the false pagan view of incarnation from the Egyptians.

Ancient Egyptians had the belief their Pharaohs were "gods incarnate", or "god on earth".

This pagan belief of "god incarnate" and the pagan Egyptian Koiak 29 celebration is still used today by the (un) Orthodox church who falsely claim Jesus is "God incarnate" and was born on Koiak 29 (December 25 or January 6 on the Gregorian calendar).
---David8318 on 12/27/19


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David: If one claims Jesus was born on the December 25 pagan holy day cannot be giving glory to Jesus Christ.//

Hi David, Christians have been celebrating the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-39) conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit on March 25th a long time before the Birth of Jesus.

December 25th is exactly 9 months from March 25th.

The Romans CENTURIES later picked December 25th as their pagan celebration.

It isn't any different today when Secularists replace St. Valentine Feast day with cupid. St. Patrick's Feast day and our Holiest day Easter to a stupid bunny.

Does that mean we Christians must stop celebrating our Feast Days?
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/27/19


//No, it wasn't until the time of Julian the Apostate//

Further reason not to associate Jesus Christ with December 25.

But evidence suggests the December 25 pagan celebration stretches 100's if not 1000's of years before Jesus. Ancient Egyptians were fascinated with the winter solstice and held a celebration in their month of Choiach (December). According to Dr Dershowitz & Dr Reingold, two renouned calendrical scholars, Christian Coptics use a calendar based on the ancient Egyptian solar calendar and always celebrate Christmas on Choiach (Koiak) 29- which is always either December 25 or 26.

If one claims Jesus was born on the December 25 pagan holy day cannot be giving glory to Jesus Christ.
---David8318 on 12/26/19


//Jeremiah is not talking about Christmas trees//

I didn't say Jeremiah was talking about Christmas trees.

In truth, there is no such thing as a "Christmas tree". Christ's birth, life or death has nothing to do with decorating trees.

Jeremiah is referencing "heathens" or pagans who do decorate trees with "silver and gold", a practice carried on by pagans and those influenced by paganism even to this day.

The Encyclopedia Britannica comments that the Christmas tree, "was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity".
---David8318 on 12/26/19


Jeremiah is not talking about Christmas trees, but about idols.

Christmas trees were originally called Paradise trees, representing the New Eden brought by Christ. They started with German protestants, Queen Victoria's marriage to a German prince introduced them to Anglophones.

However, I've not put one up in decades, for practical reasons.

For the Orthodox, wedding rings represent betrothal. The real emblem of being married are the crowns, which become part of the new family's prayer shrine, along with a cross, family Bible, and such.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/26/19


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Wedding rings are of pagan origin too. People who say that Christmas is pagan wear wedding rings.
---JS1234 on 12/25/19


//December 25 has always been a pagan holy day used by pagans long before and after Jesus was born.
---David8318 on 12/25/19//

No, it wasn't until the time of Julian the Apostate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/26/19


//If you believe that Christmas is a pagan holiday//

No, December 25 is the pagan holiday.

December 25 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

On December 25, pagans will deck their homes with bright lights, use evergreen symbols on their doors and homes and bring a tree into their homes and decorate it.

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations (or "the heathen" KJV)... For the practices of the peoples are worthless, they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold, they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."- Jer.10:2,3 (NIV).
---David8318 on 12/26/19


Regardless of whether Christmas itself is of pagan origin (which is a complex subject in and of itself), many of the "Christian traditions" that are commonly observed in the west (e.g. Christmas trees, lights on the trees, yule logs, misletoe, etc.) were originally pagan in origin. It's literally part of the name "yule log", as "Yule" is a celebration of the winter solstice in norther European paganism. These later got assimilated into Christian tradition as Christianity spread through various pagan societies.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/19


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What time of year were the shepherds tending their sheeps?
---Steveng on 12/26/19


//Read THE APOSTASY THAT WASN'T//

Try reading the scriptures. It tells us when Jesus was born.

Luke 1:26 says Gabriel appeared to Mary announcing her pregnancy with Jesus 6 months after Elizabeth became pregnant with John (the baptiser).

Luke 1:8 says John's father, Zechariah was serving as priest at the time of John's conception during the priestly "division of Abijah", which fell on the 4th Jewish month (or June) 1Ch.24:7-18.

Thus- Jesus was born 15 months after "the division of Abijah" (ie. 6 months of Elizabeth's + 9 months of Mary's pregnancy). Jesus was born at the end of September.

December 25 has always been a pagan holy day used by pagans long before and after Jesus was born.
---David8318 on 12/25/19


//f you believe that Christmas is a pagan holiday then let you continue in your belief and let others keep it in their way//

Those who believe that Christmas is a pagan holiday do so despite the facts, not because of them.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/25/19


If Christmas is celebrated that gives glory to God, then, by all means, celebrate all you want. Giving thanks to God the Father in all that you do. We give thanks for bringing His son to earth. We give thanks for the food on the table, a roof over our heads and the gifts we receive and give. We give thanks for the jobs we have and the surplus money we make to share with others in need at this special time of year when needs is more prevalent - although we should give every day of the year.

If you believe that Christmas is a pagan holiday then let you continue in your belief and let others keep it in their way.
---Steveng on 12/24/19


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No. There was no mention of Jesus until Year 1. Before that it was a pagan winter feast.

So what. Now we celebrate Jesus. Amen
---Samuelbb7 on 12/24/19


I'm attending Divine Liturgy.

Sooner or later, someone's probably going to say here the Christmas was originally a pagan feast for the birth of Mithras.

This is not true.

Christians were observing the Feast of the Incarnation centuries before Constantine.

However Julian the Apostate is the one who took it and paganized it.

Read THE APOSTASY THAT WASN'T for further info.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/23/19


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