When we witness, we do not know who God is going to save...---ven
This is where Calvinism loses me. What is the motivation for the Calvinist? With most doctrines, the motivation to follow, is the promise of Salvation.
With Calvinism, there is a guarantee of Salvation for those chosen before they were born, but an Impossibility for those who were not chosen before they were born. Calvinism tends to remove the promise of Salvation, a promise for those who choose to follow Christ.
Whats the point of following Christ, if there is no reward for those who were not chosen, before they were born? And if I am chosen, I can live anyway I want, until Gods Holy Spirit takes control of me.
---David on 7/6/20|
David, also, when we witness, we do not know who God is going to save, we just witness the Truth the gospel, of their salvation. They either hear it, or they don't. They need ears to hear and eyes to see the truth. That comes from the Holy Spirit.
some come to Christ when they are young, some when they are old. :The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8.
---ven. on 7/5/20|
When the Holy Spirit MAKES YOU ALIVE, it's only after one has been Crucified with Christ and raised up together with Him, where to be " made alive " only comes AFTER DEATH. Ephesians 2:1-10 Romans 6-8 ONLY IN CHRIST ARE YOU MADE ALIVE. We also have to die with Christ FIRST, now today to be MADE ALIVE. Galatians 2:20-21 Gal 6 . Those who do will not see or be part of the SECOND DEATH. Jesus came to save us from THE SECOND DEATH.
So no, no one is just made alive by the Holy Spirit apart from Jesus Christ and our identification with Him in death OUR SECOND DEATH NOW, and resurrection life NOW IN CHRIST. The Holy Spirit is not magically resurrecting anyone prior to belief in Jesus. This is a CULT DOCTRINE.
---kathr4453 on 7/5/20|
It just happens to you one day, and at that moment you know Christ has come into your life.---ven
At the moment you mention, How do you know Christ has come into your life? Your testimony, of this moment, would be very helpful to my understanding.
Throughout my life, I sought salvation through one of many Protestant doctrines. Though I hadnt attended a church in many years, on my 41st birthday, feeling I had attained every ounce of happiness the world had to offer, hitting rock bottom emotionally, I decided to seek after, and found, the Joy of the Lord.
In my testimony I definitely relate to the Prodigal Son in (Luke 15:11-24).
---David on 7/5/20|
David, glad you want to have a normal discussion. I love that. Here is one of your question, "
I don't really understand how someone is saved according to your doctrine. How do you know, what sign do you have, to know if you were chosen before you were born>"
David, to the first part, before someone knows if he is save, no one has any idea that the Holy Spirit is going to make you alive. It just happens to you one day, and at that moment you know Christ has come into your life.
Second part: No one gets any signs. It just happens, and at the time it happens, you are put by God the Holy Spirit, in a position to hear the word of God and believe.
---ven. on 7/4/20|
David, ven is so emotional about his beliefs that he is losing self control in any answer he can't give to me by throwing on personal attacks of what he thinks I do and do not believe based more on meanness then fact. Accused without proof text. Others here do this same thing when they either can't support their comments or just hate you for yours. If all one has is one verse they throw at you, and insist it says something it's not saying, and one points that out asking for more scripture support but get insults instead....that person is not worth debating with. This is how CULTS work. They are outraged when questioned.
---kathr4453 on 7/4/20|
Though I may not agree with Ven, Ven is not a disagreeable person. And I hope to have an honest Christ like conversation with him, or her, which will help me better understand the basic premise behind the teachings on predestination.
Most people are emotional tied to their religion, much like they are to their political parties. When this is the case, when questioned, they give you a diatribe of answers which never Really address the question. I dont believe Ven falls into this category, therefore I may get the answer I am seeking.
---David on 7/4/20|
Another question to ask David is....were we chosen before the foundation already holy and blameless or did that come after? What were we before the foundation, sinless? Or sinners? Even the Angels were created upright until 1/3 fell away. So if say we were holy and blameless before the foundation , we then had no choice but to enter into an unholy body of flesh? Strange. Why would God violate His creation that way. Don't say because God is all those OMNI things and can do whatever He wants. The thing is, no matter how this is meted out, it always hits a dead end and runs headlong into heresy. That's why ven cannot answer my questions, because he knows it is a dead end and creates more questions. Many sites refute this, except Mormon sites.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20|
ven, I love those verses, but it still does not say we preexisted and are incarnate beings. Your heresy is so silly to main stream Christianity. Reincarnation in any form or fashion is not Christianity, and the Gospel is about Jesus Christ, not your supposed pre-Existence.
You just won't stop. Seeing things not there is a sign of either brainwashing or mental illness.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20|
Thought I would steer this conversation in another direction, hoping you can better explain something to me about Calvinism.
I dont really understand how someone is saved according to your doctrine. How do you know, what sign do you have, to know if you were chosen before you were born?
Or, are you chosen before you are born, and saved sometime after you are born? And if you are saved after you are born, what do you do to be saved?
And BTW, thanks for your support on the other blog question.
---David on 7/3/20|
Kath, maybe you have a handicap, because you are not able to read correctly the passage. "Just as He chose us (believers) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," Eph. 1:4.
Also, we have another passage: "Who has save us and called us (believers) with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us (believers) in Christ Jesus before time began." 2 Tim. 1:9.
I do not see why you make excuses and deny the Truth of the Gospel in front of everyone.
---ven. on 7/3/20|
Ven the verse in Ephesians does not say YOU pre-existed. And you showed no other scripture backing up your misrepresentation of Ephesians.
So since you have proved nothing here but act like a baby having a tantrum, there seems to be nothing more you can add. So again, you failed to prove your statement, proving its heresy.
I choose to pass on any more of your nonsense. It's a MORMON BELIEF. Just research it.
Now I already told you what MAIN CHRISTIANITY and even the majority of Calvinist's, says about that verse. They do not hold to OUR pre-existence, stating that is reincarnation. Also a Hindu belief. Many of there heresies have crept into the Church. WARNING!
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20|
The Gospel,defined many times in scripture, an absolute definition is 1 Cor 15:1-4. 1 Cor 15 as we read further prove Adam did not exist before the foundation of the world. And believe me IF it were the main theme of the Gospel, we would see many scriptures stating we pre-existed. The Gospel is not about us, but Jesus Christ and HIS FINISHED WORKS ON THE CROSS. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ. ALSO in the Doc The Gospel of America, by the way is presented by CALVINISTS , say anyone who makes scripture about THEM is a cult. And never once makes such a heretic statement of pre-existance. There is only ONE INCARNATE WHO PREEXISTED...JESUS CHRIST. We are not incarnates in any way shape or form, and scripture NEVER says we are. YIKES.
---kath4453 on 7/3/20|
Kath, again you come out with ridicules charges. I gave you Scripture. and you say:". And those who claim to know things God never revealed in His word is GNOSTICISM. And you telling someone you are giving them the truth, when you can't even back it up, is what? It's called DUNG."
I backed it up. I can back up the Gospel, you cannot because you twist it. We were warned of people who would do just that, and here you are,
twisting the word. What happens is that you are challenge concerning the Gospel, and you get angry, throw insults and have many tantrums. Just like a child but you are a grown woman.
---ven. on 7/2/20|
ven, things God does not say or mention is there for a reason. And those who claim to know things God never revealed in His word is GNOSTICISM. And you telling someone you are giving them the truth, when you can't even back it up, is what? It's called DUNG. That's not TRUTH ven, that is what is called a THEORY. I don't deal in theories in any way shape or form. So please stop saying you are giving the Truth when you are only giving your interpretation of scripture and a theory to support. And stop making arrogant accusations that if one does not submit to YOU AND YOUR THEORIES, gives you the right to slander and falsely accuse.
The doctrine of pre-existance is heresy. And I know many Calvinist's who do not hold to that theory.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/20|
Kath, I give you the word of God and you do not believe it. You want to twist it so that it says what you want it to say. Go ahead and laugh, it won't be funny when you have to answer to God for twisting what is very clear in Scripture. "there is many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand" Proverbs 19:21.
How would I know how the people that God chose look like? I am not God or Jesus to be able to tell you. You want details that God does not mention, just to proof how right you are. Keep it up, for you are just adding to you list.
---ven. on 7/1/20|
Ven, unfortunately you don't understand many things. Ok you said you existed before the foundation of the world. In what form did you exist, soul or spirit. I showed Adam was that first soul. Are you saying he was the first soul that preexisted and entered into Adam. And all these preexisting souls are just waiting for a body to enter? I was actually making fun of this bazaar doctrine. You are the one who says you preexisted. So explain in what form.
Oh, and please back up with scripture. Your one verse does not go into such detail. So where did you get this idea. Your HUMAN MIND? or through the WORD OF GOD?
---kathr4453 on 6/30/20|
Kath, you come out with some strange things and then you call them truth, from the Bible. There is no such thing in the Bible call "Jew spirited babies" I believe you are worried because you were found out to be so wrong about Scripture, that you have to write many post to try to cover up and confuse people into thinking that if you write a lot of post together, you will sound authentic.
Hasn't anyone else ever challenge you before? I bet you get angry at them, if they do, and call them names just as you do me. You should Study to be approve.
---ven. on 6/30/20|
The Bible tells us exactly what the Mystery is, Colossians 1:24-27.To "gas light" making ridiculous accusations making up what you say I do and don't believe only makes you look like a liar and fool. And the funny thing is if you think Gentile's being saved is a mystery that was kept secret, how do you explain God already told Abraham in the OT Gentiles would be saved. No mystery there. And if you think you existed before the foundation of the world, where before the foundation of the world is there said to be Jew spirit babies and Gentile spirit babies? And only Jew Spirit babies were elect until God decided to mysteriously include Gentile spirit babies BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD? That's hilarious.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20|
I don't object to anything in the Bible ven, I only object to your interpretation . Do you understand the difference. You see YOU ARE NOT GOD so objecting to YOU is not objecting to God. Get over yourself.
---kath4453 on 6/29/20|
Kath, the reason you object everything in the Bible is because you don't even know that Jesus Christ created everything. That He was before all things. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colo. 1:15,16.
Plus, He is the Alpha and the Omega, "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last" Rev. 22:13
What you are learning is Mormonism. No Trinity for you. Also, Jesus was in the Old T. as the Angel of the Lord.
---ven. on 6/29/20|
Eph. 3:5-6. The mystery talked about is the inclusion of the gentiles into the New Covenant.
"Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now being revealed by the Spirit to His Holy Apostles and prophets, that the gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel."
This is the mystery, and all I needed was one post.
---ven. on 6/29/20|
Ok here's the thing too with the verse in Ephesians, showing ven must be Mormon. Mormons believe "Jesus " Christ existed before the foundation of the world. Remember Jesus is the incarnate Son of God. The WORD was made flesh and was given the name "Jesus ". Paul is not teaching "the man " Jesus existed in the person of Jesus before the foundation of the world. However Mormons do believe the man Jesus was with God in the garden, and man was created after the man Jesus Christ. So to say we existed in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world is taking scripture totally out of context.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20|
Then you have the problem of trying to explain the existance of those not in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Were the soul/spirits of those not IN CHRIST floating around the universe and the soul/spirits of those elect tucked neatly away IN CHRIST? So somewhere back when the Angels were created, the soul/spirits of men were also created, and some sinned with the fallen angels and some did not ? Or God just created a bad seed to begin with, ...having no choice at all in the matter. Yikes, even the fallen angels chose to disobey. And funny thing scripture says He'll was made for the Angels, nothing about those un-elect soul/spirits.
See how ven's nonsense is nonsense!
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20|
Mormons believe they were spirit babies before the foundation of the world(. This Is heresy. So ven you are promoting heresy. We become a soul at our human birth. The first Adam"was made" a living soul ...the last Adam was made a life giving spirit . 1Cor 15:45-46 verse 46 prove your heresy is heresy ven. Mormons got this false teaching from Calvinism. They also take it to the extreme of becoming little God's. Do you too? YIKES 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 expose your heresy. And no I'm not scared of lies. I expose them.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/20|
Ephesians speaks about THE MYSTERY more than any other book. The whole theme of Ephesians is the MYSTERY. Ending in how Jesus will present to Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle. Predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE. Chosen IN HIM TO BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME.
This is THE HOPE OF GLORY . Those who suffer with Him WILL BE GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM.
Ven, you have a very shallow understanding of scripture, and think any deeper truths are a lie. This only shows you are still on milk..a baby, needing to be nursed still.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/20|
Kath, you opened your mouth and you twisted the truth. You are so scared to be wrong that you will tell a lie. This is not the Mystery talked about in Scripture.
Here is the truth again ""Just as He(God) chose us (believers) in Him (Christ Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we (believers) should be holy and without blame before Him (Christ Jesus) in love, having predestined us (believers) to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself..." Eph. 1:4-5.
We existed before the foundation of the world otherwise how could God chose us? There is no mystery here, you either believe it or just throw away the Bible. You don't want God in control, you want to be in control.
---ven. on 6/28/20|
Ecclesiastes 2:16 - For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be Forgotten in days to come, and how does a wise man dies the fool.
1 Corinthians 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror, dimly , but then face to face now I know in part, But then I shall know just as I also am known,
James 4:14 - Where as you do not know what will happen tomorrow, For what is your life ? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time than vanishes away,
---RichardC on 6/27/20|
The MYSTERY: Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery, (as I wrote afore in few words,Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20|
The MYSTERY is stated more times in Ephesians than any other letter. It's not about a heavenly lotto of being picked to save while others are picked for hell. NO, NO NO. It's about THE CHURCH, we clearly see defined in Colossians as being kept secret but now revealed. No scripture claims a mystery of only certain folks getting picked and others not. Romans 16:25-27 talks about OUR OBEDIENCE OF FAITH ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY. Our obedience of faith is not telling everyone how you got elected and others did not. That's such a perversion of truth. The MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20|
Paul when talking about WE, always refers to the BODY OF CHRIST , the CHURCH. And yes, to understand the MYSTERY revealed to Paul, that is exactly what God is saying, that before the foundation of the world The CHURCH was a chosen vessel IN CHRIST to be His bride. Not to be confused with Israel the nation, which was not promised such a higher place or calling. But to be chosen to be IN HIM in no way limits just how many can be saved during this dispensation of time . The sky is the limit. This is why the CHURCH is not Israel. And ISRAEL the nation is not the CHURCH. But one must have a TRANSFORMED MIND to understand this truth. Remember Jesus is the ONLY CHOSEN ONE.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20|
Steven, I do not believe that we knew each other before time begin, but we will know all our relatives who were born again in heaven. Those that God saved only.
And we, the believers, were chosen before the foundation of the world. Anyone who wants to change the word of God, does it at their own risk of their soul. It is not
about another interpretation, but the changing of words. Here are the words from Scripture.
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself..." Eph. 1:4-5. Very clear words.
---ven. on 6/27/20|
I'm sure we'll know our friends and relatives , but my concern with this thought is that there are those who teach we existed before the world and knew each other then and that is why we will know each other in heaven. Also we need to understand the verse that Christ chose us in Him before the foundation of the world does not mean WE existed before the foundation of the world. This is clearly false teaching, and actually what Mormonism is about. And it appears this false notion has crept into the church, possibly without realizing what they are saying. Many just repeat someone else with out searching truth for themselves.
If you can find 2-3 verses backing up, please do share.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/20|