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Know Each Other In Heaven

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 ---Steven_James on 6/22/20
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Ven, I know that is the Calvinist's interpretation of Romans 9 however I don't separate Romans 9 from Chapter 10 and CONCLUDES in Chapter 11, where in fact it concludes in Chapter 11 that Gods Chosen Elect people ISRAEL, will be saved. That is where you and I will have to part in this. The foundation for ISRAEL is Chapter 9 concludes in Chapter 11. It's not about YOU or the Church, but The Promises God made to Israel.

The Church ven is NOT Israel. So if one refuses to see this, they will never see exactly what God is saying in Romans 9-11.

David, I don't see "Grace" in John 14:21 . Did you just make that up?
---kathr4453 on 7/13/20


//The four angels are at work here not the Holy Spirit//- ven.

Can I now correct ven. It is the angel from the 'sunrising' who is doing the work described at Revelation 7, not the 4 angels. The angel from the 'sunrising' has come 'with a seal of the living God'. This angel instructs the 4 angels not to harm the earth, "until after we have sealed the slaves of God". The number of those who are sealed is 144,000- Rev.7:2-4.

What is the "seal" from God?

"...set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come"- 2Cor.1:22 (NIV).

"...were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"- Eph.1:13 (Holman, ESV, NASB)
---David8318 on 7/13/20


Paul begins Romans 9 -11 addresses Israel and those promises WRITTEN in the OT concerning ISRAEL. Seeing he is writing to Gentiles who probably don't know about these promises he is explaining to Gentiles ...1) not to be arrogant against Jews, as we see the RCC, Hitler and even many today are.

Romans 11: 26 And so ALL ISREAL SHALL BE SAVED AS IT IS WRITTEN , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.***EZEKIEL 36***. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
---kath4453 on 7/13/20


Ven
Thank you.
Your journey, thats the information I was looking for.

Kathrine
Earlier, you gave me (John 17) as a foundational reference of the Lords teachings on Grace. This is a prayer between Father and Son. I was looking for a teaching the Lord gave to his disciples, on Grace.

For example
As you know, I teach Grace is the favor of God, and use a clearly written verse like (John 14:21) as a foundation for this teaching. And from that foundation, I can teach what Paul wrote in (Romans 2:5-16), as a witness to what I teach.
---David on 7/13/20


Kath, when you finish with the passages in Romans 9:10-13 teach that God has and Election of man, it tells us the purpose of God according to Election might stand, and then it says, It is written, Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated. It was written already before the foundation of the world. Is there unrighteousness with God? certainly not. And it continues where Paul tells us again "for this reason I have raised you up, talking now about Pharaoh. God raised him up so that God could show His power. So God can change a life when He so desires.
---ven. on 7/13/20




//does not teach that the 144,000 were sealed by the Holy Spirit//- ven.

So if they're not sealed by holy spirit, what do you believe they are sealed with? Yes they're sealed on the forehead, but with what... wax? Celotape? Superglue? Do you understand what being 'sealed' means?

This is where scripture interprets scripture. I used Eph.1:13,14 to identify not the 144,000, but what they are sealed with.

"...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (KJV)

"The seal is the Holy Spirit that he promised" (NIRV)

It's my belief the 144,000 are "sealed" on their foreheads by the angel from the 'sunrising' with HS.

If not with holy spirit, then with what are they sealed?
---David8318 on 7/13/20


David, I would like to correct you. The passage you gave does not teach that the 144,000 were sealed by the Holy Spirit as you said, it teaches that they were sealed on the forehead. The passage reads, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on the foreheads" Rev. 7:3. The four angels are at work here not the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 1:13-14 does talk about the Holy Spirit. But not about the 144,000.
---ven. on 7/12/20


Let's continue with the verses ven did not post. The children of promise here is Isaac, then as we see Paul continues to Jacob

Romans 9:9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,)12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Isaiah 14:2 Deut 7:6 elect and chosen. Elect and chosen for salvation? We're all saved?
Elect Chosen To Be a HOLY NATION . For SERVICE.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/20


So ven, because you first were Pentecostal, and looked for a better church proves your theory wrong. If you had testified that WALLA out of left field you were made alive to believe and then believed, ...but that's not your testimony. You took a doctrine and forced it into your experience that never happened.

David, OT SAINTS looked forward to the cross, their faith being in one who would die for their sin, Genesis 3:15...Isaiah 53, NT SAINTS look back at the cross, we having a more complete salvation IN CHRIST they did not have until Jesus rose from the dead. They are now the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT. Hebrews 11:37:40 Heb 12:23
---kathr4453 on 7/12/20


//you can get the answers you desire directly from the believers// David.

Only too pleased to help.

Agape.
---David8318 on 7/12/20




JW's believe what Revelation 7 teaches- millions will be saved. Revelation 7 clearly points out, there are 2 groups of saved ones: the 144,000, and the great multitude.---David8318

David
Thats what I love about this site, you can get the answers you desire directly from the believers. Thanks for clearing that up. I have Always thought that was a strange belief, and now I know why, because its simply not true.

Kathrine
Do you believe New Testament Grace is different from Old Testament Grace? If so, in what way?
---David on 7/12/20


David, you say, "Ven
I realized a doctrine didnt draw me to Christ, God did. So this is probably who drew you. What did God do, to draw you."

The Holy Spirit drew me to Christ on summer night when I was thinking about my life and hoe everything had gone so wrong. At that time I didn't know the reform view until 10 years of being a Pentecostal. I grew up a Catholic. The more I studied the more faults I found in the Pentecostal faith I was in. Far to many things not right. One day I looked for a better Church.
---ven. on 7/12/20


//the 144,000, especially when you consider they have millions of Members//- David.

"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel... After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... before the Lamb"- Rev.7:4,9 (NIV).

JW's believe what Revelation 7 teaches- millions will be saved. Revelation 7 clearly points out, there are 2 groups of saved ones: the 144,000, and the great multitude.

The 144,000 are "sealed" by holy spirit (Eph.1:13,14). The great multitude are the ones who "come out of the great tribulation"- Re.7:14.

There are millions of the 'great multitude'.
---David8318 on 7/11/20


David one can fall from GRACE by going back to live under the Law as we see in Galatians , then another aspect of NT GRACE is our life IN CHRIST . I IN THEM, CHRIST IN YOU ,John 17, Colossians 1:24-27 YOU in Christ , where the RICHES OF HIS GRACE can be found. While Jesus was on earth no one was yet IN CHRIST. BUT His prayer in John 17 point to that time of this Grace , where now one can be IN CHRIST HAVING CHRIST FORMED IN YOU Galatians calls GRACE. ITS only available to those not under the law, as the law voids out Grace in our lives RE FALLING FROM GRACE Galatians 2:20-21. One must be Crucified with Christ to have THIS GRACE so richly in our lives. NT GRACE IS NOT GODS GOOD HUMOR. ..IF you read all verses in the NT you will see that.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/20


David, I love that. A doctrine didn't draw me to Christ . Perfect. Calvinism is a doctrine does not draw anyone to Christ, but it does draw people to a cult.

David, the gospel of John unlike the other three reveal Jesus prayer before He was CRUCIFIED and RISEN. John 17 is something only the Lord can reveal to you GRACE in Jesus own WORDS.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/20


Before I can answer your question, please tell me exactly what you say my beliefs on on Grace that Jesus didn't preach. The Law came through Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. ---kath4453 on 7/10/20

Kathrine
As you have shown, God gave Moses a covenant of Law, and Jesus, a covenant of Grace.

When we read about Moses we can clearly see his teachings on The Law, which as you know, are called the Law of Moses.
When we read the Gospel of Christ, shouldnt we clearly see his teachings on Grace. Can you show me where Jesus, the Author of Salvation, taught about Grace?

Ven
I realized a doctrine didnt draw me to Christ, God did. So this is probably who drew you. What did God do, to draw you?
---David on 7/11/20


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Van, Colossians 1:24-29 tell us what the Church is. Of coarse believers make up the Church, certainly non believers don't , but it goes much deeper than that. If it were simply just believers, why was it kept secret but NOW REVEALED. Reiterated again in Romans 16:25-27 same secret NOW revealed . There was no mystery of the promised redeemer, no mystery Gentiles would be saved. SO VEN, Only the Lord can reveal to you these truths but unless you obey Romans 12:1-2 I can't help you. You'll just argue about things you know nothing of except what your human teachers tell you. And it's more than just a head knowledge ven. If your going to stick to all those human teachers, you've actually cut off any leading from the Holy Spirit, OUR TEACHER.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/20


ven, if you continued to read Galatians, Paul continues his teaching...remember this was a letter, not a chapter and verse book, Paul continues his teaching using Sarah and Hagar, where Sarahs children( US) are ABOVE AND FREE and Hagar's children re ISHMAEL's are still in bondage. so NOT in Ishmael Thy seed Christ was NOT called, but through Isaac's seed, GALATIANS $ 4:22-31 explain fully. THEN the seed came through one of Isaacs sons who was Jacob vs Esau, God chose Jacob to carry the seed down THROUGH David Romans 1,3 who came through MARY. This genealogy is shown twice in the Gospels. This SEED also promised in Genesis 3:15 was the Promise of the Messiah JESUS CHRIST. YOU are not a SEED ven unless you are claiming to be a little god.
---kath4453 on 7/11/20


Kath, you say, " THROUGH THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERING, ALL point to Jesus Christ and the Church. I know what the MYSTERY IS that was given Paul to preach.
What you don't understand is that the believers make up the Church. The Church are the believers. The marriage is with them. That is the Mystery.
---ven. on 7/10/20


And David just to reiterate, we see Hebrews 10 contrast Law vs Grace. The Law in sacrificing bulls and goats could never take away sin, it only COVERED sin until Jesis shed blood TOOK AWAY SIN.

David, there is no salvation apart from having your sin TAKEN AWAY, FORGIVEN . Please read Romans 5 thoroughly and completely from beginning to end, and really focus on the word GRACE. The gift of Grace is by one man Jesus Christ with the gift of righteousness. Focus now on verses 15-21. GRACE has so much more abounded over the Law, and has SO ABOUNDED it is not limited in any way shape or form either.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/20


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You cannot find that in the bible. No where does it say children of Issac.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Those of the faith those saved are children of Abraham. Now it is from Issac. But you teach that because of predestination. Not because of what the Bible teaches.

Calvin also taught to obey the Ten Commandments. Do you obey all of them?
---Samuelbb7 on 7/10/20


Kath, before you call someone a liar, look in the mirror. Galatians 3:16 and again the Holy Spirit is not with you. :"Now to Abraham and his Seed (as One) were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds" as of many, but as of one. And to your Seed, who is Christ.
Did you get that? Christ is the Seed, He came through the seed of Isaac. The other seed are the physical descendants of Abraham. "nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham , but in Isaac your seed shall be called. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." Romans 9:7,8. the seed of Isaac are the children of promise.
---ven. on 7/10/20


AGAIN, VEN IS WRONG and spreading lies out of some cult bible.
No scripture says we are Isaac's seed. It says IN ISAAC WILL THY SEED BE CALLED. MEANING it would not be through Ishmael. Then God chose Jacob over Esau to bring forth the promised seed, then through Judah, where David is of the tribe if Judah. The SEED JESUS came through the Tribe if Judah. The seed of David , Romans 1:3.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/20


David, I'm not sure the purpose of the verse you posted. But to your question. Before I can answer your question, please tell me exactly what you say my beliefs on on Grace that Jesus didn't preach. The Law came through Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ok David, Jesus came into the world to die for sinners. Jesus was FORORDAINED before the foundation of the world to take away sin. Today GRACE REIGNS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. We are saved by Jesus death and resurection . Justified by His BLOOD and saved by His RISEN LIFE . BY GRACE you have been saved through faith in Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Jesus talked about His death many times with His disciples.
---kath4453 on 7/10/20


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Also the foundation of the Gospel began in Genesis.---kathr4453

It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone elses foundation. (Romans 15:20)

Kathrine
Paul taught about Grace, and on this I agree with you. I can clearly see the foundation for his teachings, on Grace, in the Gospel of Christ. You teach Grace, claiming they are Pauls teachings, and yet I do not see your teachings of Grace, anywhere in the Gospel of Christ.

I know this is simply because we define the word Grace, differently. Can you show me where your definition of Grace in found in the Gospel of Christ?
---David on 7/10/20


Samuel, you say: "Amen. We are by being born again Children of Abraham.
I am sorry Samuel, but we are children of the Seed of Isaac. The Seed is Jesus. All others from the seed of Abraham are not save so are not being born again.
---ven. on 7/10/20


The MYSTERY IS THE CHURCH ven. ! the BOC, that mystical union with Christ making us a unique entity, kept secret but now revealed. It includes the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS, as the CHURCH is predestined to be conformed to His image, THROUGH THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERING, ALL point to Jesus Christ and the Church. I know what the MYSTERY IS that was given Paul to preach. You don't Ven. Nor did Calvin or Augustine, who was steeped in Gnosticism .

The MYSTERY is not your name getting picked out of a hat winning some heavenly lotto.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/20


And ven, just because you can list all these verses re the MYSTERY, shows you have no clue we were talking about the MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH. Where did I incorporate any of those other verses and apply to the CHURCH. The One new man, is the Church. Israel the nation is not the Church. And Paul in his teaching clearly distinguishes the Church is not earthly Israel. You first need to understand this. We are not a new Israel, we are a NEW CREATURE, NEITHER JEW OR GENTILE. OLD THINGS PASS AWAY ALL THINGS BECOME NEW.
---kath4453 on 7/9/20


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Kath, when you talk about the "Mystery" make sure what mystery you are talking about. There are several mysteries in the Bible. Mysteries are something that had been hidden but made manifested in the New Testament.
Mystery of the Incarnation 1 Timothy 3:16
Mystery of the Divine Indwelling Colossians 1:26,27.
Mystery of the union of Jews and Gentiles Eph. 3:6.
Mystery of the Seven Stars and Lampstands Rev. 1:20.
Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 13:10,11.
Mystery of the translation of the Saints 1 Cor.15:51,52.
Mystery of Israels blindness Romans 11:25. Mystery of the Man of iniquity 2 Thess. 2:7,8.
Mystery of Babylon Rev. 17:5.
Mystery of the Church, the Bride of Christ Eph. 5:29-32.
---ven. on 7/9/20


Amen. We are by being born again Children of Abraham.

I cannot find predestination is the Gospel. One reason is that Calvin states GOD has chosen to only die for a few people. It is called limited atonement.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/9/20


Yes and those who have read Kingdom of the Cults Walter Martin, state all those who preach a secret select , only WE, doctrine IS A CULT. I do like Walter Martin's book here. Read it about 30 years ago. He alludes to Calvinism very clearly ad he did the JW' s select few. Also the foundation of the Gospel began in Genesis. Read Hebrews 11 for that foundation. The CHURCH doesn't have a new and different Gospel, ...all begin with Justification. Paul in Galatians show Abraham is the father of our faith.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/20


Kathrine
Thats a really Good point about the 144,000, especially when you consider they have millions of Members.

Ven
Thanks for the references. I have heard John MacArthur on the radio, and had no idea. Very helpful, I can Listen to his program on a podcast.

Pauls teachings are founded upon the Gospel of Christ. Since it was founded on the Gospel, we can reference this foundation when reading Pauls letters, in order to gain a better understanding. Can you show me, in the Gospel, the foundational teachings of predestination?

I always use the Gospel as a Litmus test to determine the Truth of a teaching. If its not supported by the same foundation Paul used, it has no support.
---David on 7/9/20


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Ven, I know what the church is , and have already pointed this out to you. Anyone baptized into Jesus death are baptized into Christ are now members of HIS BODY Called THE CHURCH, THE MYSTERY...CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY. Colossians 1:24-27. This "mystery" Paul again states in Romans 16:25-27, FOR THE OBEDIENCE IF FAITH has been made know TO ALL NATIONS, . YOU NEED TO BELIEVE GOD VEN! Not your reformed teachers. This secret now has been made manifest ...you need to get on your knees and ask the Lord to forgive you for your false gospel. There is no secret society . It's WHOSOEVER WILL of both Jew and Gentile that make up the NEW CREATURE THE CHURCH. The ONE NEW MAN. Even YOU ven can become a member of CHRISTS BODY.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/20


This is to the Church, not Mark 13. Mark 13 happens AFTER the Church is translated.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
---kath4453 on 7/9/20


Kath, the believers are the Church. Or you can say the Church are the chosen one's, the Beloved, or the Elect. They were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, found in Eph. 1:4. God has made sure every chosen one is born and has come to Christ before the Second coming, that is when "He will send His angels, and gather together His Elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth, to the farthest part of heaven." Mark 13:27. This is all happening after the Tribulation and before the Second Coming. Most Jews see the Gospel as a stumbling block so fewer Jews come to Christ even though the Gospel came to them first.
---ven. on 7/8/20


I have read many on different subjects by many writers. R.C. Sproul my favorite. Jonathan Edwards, Arthur Pink, Michael Horton, John MaCarthur, ...Charles Spurgeon, George Whifield,...End time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg who I think is a Seventh Day Adventist. like the book but don't follow his beliefs. Good book to read on the end times. Concerning Calvin, I don't have anything on him. I hear he was great.......
---ven. on 7/8/20


Funny how someone who says the Spirit made Him ALIVE to believe rely on the works of men. You don't have to be made alive to read and follow religious books. Many religious people read these books having never been born again. A true believer Made Alive has the testimony of Jesus in their own words.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/20


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Samuel, I never new what the reformers believed in. I believe that the reform way is not for every one. Some come to know the reform way by accident, as I did. I use to be a Pentecostal, but I ran into trouble when we were studying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also had a problem with the exorcism on children. So one night after work and I saw a program call Word Pictures. They were talking about the Sovereignty of God, and I ordered the lessons and that was about 20 years ago.
So all I do is give the Word of God and People do what they want. They might learn the Sovereignty of God later on. God is in control of all that. Thanks for sharing with me.
---ven. on 7/8/20


Correct Ven he is a Seventh day Adventist so am I. I have read Walter Martin's book also.

Calvin had some good points. But his stand on Predestination is not something I can agree with.

AGape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/8/20


David, I have read many on different subjects by many writers. R.C. Sproul my favorite. Jonathan Edwards, Arthur Pink, Michael Horton, John MaCarthur, Another is Charles Spurgeon, George Whifield, I have, End time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg who I think is a Seventh Day Adventist. like the book but don't follow his beliefs. Good book to read on the end times. Concerning Calvin, I don't have anything on him. I hear he was great. One book I studied when I first began my walk with Christ was, "The Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin, it told me I was in the wrong church. Have many Bibles and study Bibles with the Lexical Aids to the New, an Old Testament,
---ven. on 7/8/20


Saying no one knows if they are chosen or not is strange. Sounds like the JW'S who believe only 144,000 will be saved, but no one really knows if they are one of the 144,000 seeing there are millions of JW'S since its inception. Any doctrine limiting the number of saved to a secret few IS A CULT.

I definitely know I'm saved. And according to Romans 11 I'm one of the elect according to the election of Grace. I do know I have been chosen to be IN CHRIST when I put my faith in Him, surrendering my life to Him. The CHURCH is what is CHOSEN, to be joint heirs with Christ, never promised to earthy Israel.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/20


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Ven
Thank you for your answers. Thats Interesting, that you dont study John Calvin. Do you know if your thoughts on predestination are the same as his? If so, I can read what he wrote and get a better understanding of the teaching.

Is there anything, besides the bible, you use to study? For example, Some folks study the bible through the teaching of people like John Wesley, Matthew Henry, Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Billy Graham...etc.
---David on 7/8/20


some come to Christ when they are young, some when they are old. :The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8.
---ven. on 7/5/20

Yet again this is not what this verse means, that the Holy Spirit is some independent contractor working independently from the Father and Son, willy nilly blowing around saying , I GOT ONE FOR YA GOD. No scripture again supports this fanciful thinking.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/20


David,I will try to answer all you questions but first, I am not defending Calvinism. Only the Truth. I have never read about Calvin, or what he believed in. You say:"With Calvinism, there is a guarantee of Salvation for those chosen before they were born, but an Impossibility for those who were not chosen before they were born. David, no one knows if they were chosen or not, you are born not knowing the Lord. And maybe one day some tells you about Jesus and His death and His resurrection. And you either believe or you don't. If you are one of the chosen ones and God wants to save you that day, He will. But maybe He wants to save you when you are old, then He will save you when you are old.
---ven. on 7/7/20


When we witness, we do not know who God is going to save...---ven

Ven
This is where Calvinism loses me. What is the motivation for the Calvinist? With most doctrines, the motivation to follow, is the promise of Salvation.

With Calvinism, there is a guarantee of Salvation for those chosen before they were born, but an Impossibility for those who were not chosen before they were born. Calvinism tends to remove the promise of Salvation, a promise for those who choose to follow Christ.

Whats the point of following Christ, if there is no reward for those who were not chosen, before they were born? And if I am chosen, I can live anyway I want, until Gods Holy Spirit takes control of me.
---David on 7/6/20


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David, also, when we witness, we do not know who God is going to save, we just witness the Truth the gospel, of their salvation. They either hear it, or they don't. They need ears to hear and eyes to see the truth. That comes from the Holy Spirit.
some come to Christ when they are young, some when they are old. :The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8.
---ven. on 7/5/20


When the Holy Spirit MAKES YOU ALIVE, it's only after one has been Crucified with Christ and raised up together with Him, where to be " made alive " only comes AFTER DEATH. Ephesians 2:1-10 Romans 6-8 ONLY IN CHRIST ARE YOU MADE ALIVE. We also have to die with Christ FIRST, now today to be MADE ALIVE. Galatians 2:20-21 Gal 6 . Those who do will not see or be part of the SECOND DEATH. Jesus came to save us from THE SECOND DEATH.

So no, no one is just made alive by the Holy Spirit apart from Jesus Christ and our identification with Him in death OUR SECOND DEATH NOW, and resurrection life NOW IN CHRIST. The Holy Spirit is not magically resurrecting anyone prior to belief in Jesus. This is a CULT DOCTRINE.
---kathr4453 on 7/5/20


It just happens to you one day, and at that moment you know Christ has come into your life.---ven

Ven
At the moment you mention, How do you know Christ has come into your life? Your testimony, of this moment, would be very helpful to my understanding.

Throughout my life, I sought salvation through one of many Protestant doctrines. Though I hadnt attended a church in many years, on my 41st birthday, feeling I had attained every ounce of happiness the world had to offer, hitting rock bottom emotionally, I decided to seek after, and found, the Joy of the Lord.

In my testimony I definitely relate to the Prodigal Son in (Luke 15:11-24).
---David on 7/5/20


David, glad you want to have a normal discussion. I love that. Here is one of your question, "
I don't really understand how someone is saved according to your doctrine. How do you know, what sign do you have, to know if you were chosen before you were born>"

David, to the first part, before someone knows if he is save, no one has any idea that the Holy Spirit is going to make you alive. It just happens to you one day, and at that moment you know Christ has come into your life.
Second part: No one gets any signs. It just happens, and at the time it happens, you are put by God the Holy Spirit, in a position to hear the word of God and believe.
---ven. on 7/4/20


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David, ven is so emotional about his beliefs that he is losing self control in any answer he can't give to me by throwing on personal attacks of what he thinks I do and do not believe based more on meanness then fact. Accused without proof text. Others here do this same thing when they either can't support their comments or just hate you for yours. If all one has is one verse they throw at you, and insist it says something it's not saying, and one points that out asking for more scripture support but get insults instead....that person is not worth debating with. This is how CULTS work. They are outraged when questioned.
---kathr4453 on 7/4/20


Kathrine
Though I may not agree with Ven, Ven is not a disagreeable person. And I hope to have an honest Christ like conversation with him, or her, which will help me better understand the basic premise behind the teachings on predestination.

Most people are emotional tied to their religion, much like they are to their political parties. When this is the case, when questioned, they give you a diatribe of answers which never Really address the question. I dont believe Ven falls into this category, therefore I may get the answer I am seeking.
---David on 7/4/20


Another question to ask David is....were we chosen before the foundation already holy and blameless or did that come after? What were we before the foundation, sinless? Or sinners? Even the Angels were created upright until 1/3 fell away. So if say we were holy and blameless before the foundation , we then had no choice but to enter into an unholy body of flesh? Strange. Why would God violate His creation that way. Don't say because God is all those OMNI things and can do whatever He wants. The thing is, no matter how this is meted out, it always hits a dead end and runs headlong into heresy. That's why ven cannot answer my questions, because he knows it is a dead end and creates more questions. Many sites refute this, except Mormon sites.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20


ven, I love those verses, but it still does not say we preexisted and are incarnate beings. Your heresy is so silly to main stream Christianity. Reincarnation in any form or fashion is not Christianity, and the Gospel is about Jesus Christ, not your supposed pre-Existence.

You just won't stop. Seeing things not there is a sign of either brainwashing or mental illness.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20


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Ven
Thought I would steer this conversation in another direction, hoping you can better explain something to me about Calvinism.

I dont really understand how someone is saved according to your doctrine. How do you know, what sign do you have, to know if you were chosen before you were born?

Or, are you chosen before you are born, and saved sometime after you are born? And if you are saved after you are born, what do you do to be saved?

And BTW, thanks for your support on the other blog question.
---David on 7/3/20


Kath, maybe you have a handicap, because you are not able to read correctly the passage. "Just as He chose us (believers) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," Eph. 1:4.
Also, we have another passage: "Who has save us and called us (believers) with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us (believers) in Christ Jesus before time began." 2 Tim. 1:9.
I do not see why you make excuses and deny the Truth of the Gospel in front of everyone.
---ven. on 7/3/20


Ven the verse in Ephesians does not say YOU pre-existed. And you showed no other scripture backing up your misrepresentation of Ephesians.

So since you have proved nothing here but act like a baby having a tantrum, there seems to be nothing more you can add. So again, you failed to prove your statement, proving its heresy.

I choose to pass on any more of your nonsense. It's a MORMON BELIEF. Just research it.

Now I already told you what MAIN CHRISTIANITY and even the majority of Calvinist's, says about that verse. They do not hold to OUR pre-existence, stating that is reincarnation. Also a Hindu belief. Many of there heresies have crept into the Church. WARNING!
---kathr4453 on 7/3/20


The Gospel,defined many times in scripture, an absolute definition is 1 Cor 15:1-4. 1 Cor 15 as we read further prove Adam did not exist before the foundation of the world. And believe me IF it were the main theme of the Gospel, we would see many scriptures stating we pre-existed. The Gospel is not about us, but Jesus Christ and HIS FINISHED WORKS ON THE CROSS. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ. ALSO in the Doc The Gospel of America, by the way is presented by CALVINISTS , say anyone who makes scripture about THEM is a cult. And never once makes such a heretic statement of pre-existance. There is only ONE INCARNATE WHO PREEXISTED...JESUS CHRIST. We are not incarnates in any way shape or form, and scripture NEVER says we are. YIKES.
---kath4453 on 7/3/20


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Kath, again you come out with ridicules charges. I gave you Scripture. and you say:". And those who claim to know things God never revealed in His word is GNOSTICISM. And you telling someone you are giving them the truth, when you can't even back it up, is what? It's called DUNG."
I backed it up. I can back up the Gospel, you cannot because you twist it. We were warned of people who would do just that, and here you are,
twisting the word. What happens is that you are challenge concerning the Gospel, and you get angry, throw insults and have many tantrums. Just like a child but you are a grown woman.
---ven. on 7/2/20


ven, things God does not say or mention is there for a reason. And those who claim to know things God never revealed in His word is GNOSTICISM. And you telling someone you are giving them the truth, when you can't even back it up, is what? It's called DUNG. That's not TRUTH ven, that is what is called a THEORY. I don't deal in theories in any way shape or form. So please stop saying you are giving the Truth when you are only giving your interpretation of scripture and a theory to support. And stop making arrogant accusations that if one does not submit to YOU AND YOUR THEORIES, gives you the right to slander and falsely accuse.

The doctrine of pre-existance is heresy. And I know many Calvinist's who do not hold to that theory.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/20


Kath, I give you the word of God and you do not believe it. You want to twist it so that it says what you want it to say. Go ahead and laugh, it won't be funny when you have to answer to God for twisting what is very clear in Scripture. "there is many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand" Proverbs 19:21.
How would I know how the people that God chose look like? I am not God or Jesus to be able to tell you. You want details that God does not mention, just to proof how right you are. Keep it up, for you are just adding to you list.
---ven. on 7/1/20


Ven, unfortunately you don't understand many things. Ok you said you existed before the foundation of the world. In what form did you exist, soul or spirit. I showed Adam was that first soul. Are you saying he was the first soul that preexisted and entered into Adam. And all these preexisting souls are just waiting for a body to enter? I was actually making fun of this bazaar doctrine. You are the one who says you preexisted. So explain in what form.

Oh, and please back up with scripture. Your one verse does not go into such detail. So where did you get this idea. Your HUMAN MIND? or through the WORD OF GOD?
---kathr4453 on 6/30/20


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Kath, you come out with some strange things and then you call them truth, from the Bible. There is no such thing in the Bible call "Jew spirited babies" I believe you are worried because you were found out to be so wrong about Scripture, that you have to write many post to try to cover up and confuse people into thinking that if you write a lot of post together, you will sound authentic.
Hasn't anyone else ever challenge you before? I bet you get angry at them, if they do, and call them names just as you do me. You should Study to be approve.
---ven. on 6/30/20


The Bible tells us exactly what the Mystery is, Colossians 1:24-27.To "gas light" making ridiculous accusations making up what you say I do and don't believe only makes you look like a liar and fool. And the funny thing is if you think Gentile's being saved is a mystery that was kept secret, how do you explain God already told Abraham in the OT Gentiles would be saved. No mystery there. And if you think you existed before the foundation of the world, where before the foundation of the world is there said to be Jew spirit babies and Gentile spirit babies? And only Jew Spirit babies were elect until God decided to mysteriously include Gentile spirit babies BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD? That's hilarious.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20


I don't object to anything in the Bible ven, I only object to your interpretation . Do you understand the difference. You see YOU ARE NOT GOD so objecting to YOU is not objecting to God. Get over yourself.
---kath4453 on 6/29/20


Kath, the reason you object everything in the Bible is because you don't even know that Jesus Christ created everything. That He was before all things. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colo. 1:15,16.
Plus, He is the Alpha and the Omega, "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last" Rev. 22:13
What you are learning is Mormonism. No Trinity for you. Also, Jesus was in the Old T. as the Angel of the Lord.
---ven. on 6/29/20


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Eph. 3:5-6. The mystery talked about is the inclusion of the gentiles into the New Covenant.
"Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now being revealed by the Spirit to His Holy Apostles and prophets, that the gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel."
This is the mystery, and all I needed was one post.
---ven. on 6/29/20


Ok here's the thing too with the verse in Ephesians, showing ven must be Mormon. Mormons believe "Jesus " Christ existed before the foundation of the world. Remember Jesus is the incarnate Son of God. The WORD was made flesh and was given the name "Jesus ". Paul is not teaching "the man " Jesus existed in the person of Jesus before the foundation of the world. However Mormons do believe the man Jesus was with God in the garden, and man was created after the man Jesus Christ. So to say we existed in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world is taking scripture totally out of context.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20


Then you have the problem of trying to explain the existance of those not in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Were the soul/spirits of those not IN CHRIST floating around the universe and the soul/spirits of those elect tucked neatly away IN CHRIST? So somewhere back when the Angels were created, the soul/spirits of men were also created, and some sinned with the fallen angels and some did not ? Or God just created a bad seed to begin with, ...having no choice at all in the matter. Yikes, even the fallen angels chose to disobey. And funny thing scripture says He'll was made for the Angels, nothing about those un-elect soul/spirits.

See how ven's nonsense is nonsense!

Total blasphemy.
---kathr4453 on 6/29/20


Mormons believe they were spirit babies before the foundation of the world(. This Is heresy. So ven you are promoting heresy. We become a soul at our human birth. The first Adam"was made" a living soul ...the last Adam was made a life giving spirit . 1Cor 15:45-46 verse 46 prove your heresy is heresy ven. Mormons got this false teaching from Calvinism. They also take it to the extreme of becoming little God's. Do you too? YIKES 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 expose your heresy. And no I'm not scared of lies. I expose them.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/20


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Ephesians speaks about THE MYSTERY more than any other book. The whole theme of Ephesians is the MYSTERY. Ending in how Jesus will present to Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle. Predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE. Chosen IN HIM TO BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME.

This is THE HOPE OF GLORY . Those who suffer with Him WILL BE GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM.

Ven, you have a very shallow understanding of scripture, and think any deeper truths are a lie. This only shows you are still on milk..a baby, needing to be nursed still.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/20


Kath, you opened your mouth and you twisted the truth. You are so scared to be wrong that you will tell a lie. This is not the Mystery talked about in Scripture.
Here is the truth again ""Just as He(God) chose us (believers) in Him (Christ Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we (believers) should be holy and without blame before Him (Christ Jesus) in love, having predestined us (believers) to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself..." Eph. 1:4-5.
We existed before the foundation of the world otherwise how could God chose us? There is no mystery here, you either believe it or just throw away the Bible. You don't want God in control, you want to be in control.
---ven. on 6/28/20


Ecclesiastes 2:16 - For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be Forgotten in days to come, and how does a wise man dies the fool.

1 Corinthians 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror, dimly , but then face to face now I know in part, But then I shall know just as I also am known,

James 4:14 - Where as you do not know what will happen tomorrow, For what is your life ? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time than vanishes away,
---RichardC on 6/27/20


The MYSTERY: Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery, (as I wrote afore in few words,Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20


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The MYSTERY is stated more times in Ephesians than any other letter. It's not about a heavenly lotto of being picked to save while others are picked for hell. NO, NO NO. It's about THE CHURCH, we clearly see defined in Colossians as being kept secret but now revealed. No scripture claims a mystery of only certain folks getting picked and others not. Romans 16:25-27 talks about OUR OBEDIENCE OF FAITH ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY. Our obedience of faith is not telling everyone how you got elected and others did not. That's such a perversion of truth. The MYSTERY is CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20


Paul when talking about WE, always refers to the BODY OF CHRIST , the CHURCH. And yes, to understand the MYSTERY revealed to Paul, that is exactly what God is saying, that before the foundation of the world The CHURCH was a chosen vessel IN CHRIST to be His bride. Not to be confused with Israel the nation, which was not promised such a higher place or calling. But to be chosen to be IN HIM in no way limits just how many can be saved during this dispensation of time . The sky is the limit. This is why the CHURCH is not Israel. And ISRAEL the nation is not the CHURCH. But one must have a TRANSFORMED MIND to understand this truth. Remember Jesus is the ONLY CHOSEN ONE.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/20


Steven, I do not believe that we knew each other before time begin, but we will know all our relatives who were born again in heaven. Those that God saved only.
And we, the believers, were chosen before the foundation of the world. Anyone who wants to change the word of God, does it at their own risk of their soul. It is not
about another interpretation, but the changing of words. Here are the words from Scripture.
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself..." Eph. 1:4-5. Very clear words.
---ven. on 6/27/20


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