Yes, "a man". You are reading "Jesus" between the lines, because you want it to be there.
John 1:14 says "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."
So, according to your theology, at what point in time did the Word, which was not previously flesh, become made flesh? The only time this makes sense was at the birth of Jesus.
If Jesus was, in fact, flesh BEFORE his birth, why did he need to become born in the first place? How did someone who was already flesh enter into his mother's womb? Your theory leads to many absurd conclusions like this.
---StrongAxe on 8/8/20|
Does it actually say a man IN THE FLESH, or did ven just add that? Ven is comparing apples to oranges. No where in the OT was Jesus BORN, or begotten of man to be flesh and blood of man . We see Jesus genealogy in the Gospels of his earthly lineage going back to Adam. THIS HUMAN FLESH is what we are referring to. The very same body Jesus has today, except it it Glorified. And this same Jesus with nail prints in His hands will be the MAN CHRIST JESUS who will return at the second coming. And before Adam AKA MAN was created, there was no man Christ Jesus. Adam was THE FIRST MAN.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/20|
Axe, this is what you said: "Jesus manifested in flesh at his BIRTH, not before."
Axe you are so wrong. He was present in the flesh many times in the Old T. Why dont we look at Genesis 32:24 :"Then Jacob was left alone, and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day." He was wrestling with the Lord. And how about Joshua 5:13--15, "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold , a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand..." The Commander of the Army of the Lord is Jesus Christ and in that passage He is a Man in the flesh.
---ven. on 8/8/20|
I believe there is a great difference between different faiths. And one should be equally yoked with one who shares the same faith. For many years Catholics would not marry those who were Protestant with a Catholic or made them convert, and vice versa with Protestant believers. It wasn't the people who decided that, but the church leaders themselves. And if all were simply Christians with various views ...why were so many burned at the stake from opposing sides. I think today people have just become more liberal in their beliefs. But many still today do not compromise. I could NEVER be yoked with a Calvinist, although we both believe in Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/20|
Catholics ARE Christians. There were Catholic Christians for centuries before there were Protestant ones. This is like asking "Should Baptists marry Christians?".
Questions like this imply items in the first category are excluded from the second. Such hidden assumptions are disingenuous, like the infamous question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" (assumes you have a wite, and used to beat her).
There is toxic elitism when some groups of people say "WE are REAL Christians, but YOU aren't", which divides Christ. If we have to judge people, judge them by their fruits, not their labels. There are good ones and bad ones in every denomination.
---StrongAxe on 8/2/20|
No, a Catholic and a Christian should not marry. Even a Christian can be "Unequally yoked" with another Christian:for example a Pentecostal and a Baptist may be unequally yoked because their beliefs may be too different. All may be fine until children become part of the family. That usually is when you start to have real problems When the child sees mom and dad who argue on what is the best denomination and the parents latter decide to let the child decide, the child will often not go to any church. (As a marriage counselor, I've seen it happen.) .
---wivv on 8/2/20|
God is not male or female. The Holy Spirit is not male or female, and the WORD before being made flesh was not male or female. Angels are also not male or female. EITHER. They are all of a different order of being. GOD IS SPIRIT. No one has seen God so to say He is a man, because He isn't a woman is something a 3rd grader would come up with without instruction. YIKES. And there is no way THE MAN JESUS CHRIST appeared in the OT. If that were true He would have simply APPEARED in the NT. The whole of Him being born of a virgin who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit is a miracle NOT IN THE OT. To again undermine the birth of Jesus this way.... IS HERESY.
ARE YOU MORMON. They too think they are Israel.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/20|
The Father is not a human being, so he's neither man, woman, nor any other kind of human. He is spirit, and must be worshiped in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). He's called Father, never Mother (although Matthew 23:37 "how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings")
That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
We can't all be each other. "One" means unity in purpose and spirit, not "one and the same" (erroneous belief of Oneness Pentecostals).
Jesus manifested in flesh at his BIRTH, not before.
---StrongAxe on 8/1/20|
Axe, So the way you explained it is that the Father could be a woman, with your explanation. But you are wrong, He is a Man, not a woman. Jesus and the Father are one, that make the Son a Man. He is the Man called Jesus Christ. He took the form of a human body. Christ, the second Person, is the full manifestation of God in the visible form, so it is logical that the same Person of the Trinity should appear in bodily form in both Testaments.
---ven. on 8/1/20|
I believe MAN is short for HUMAN. Jesus was not a HUMAN before His Incarnation. Only MAN have flesh and blood.
This is an interesting addition not in Calvinism either.
DEFINITION of MAN
an adult human male.
a human being of either sex, a person.
MORMON.....it keeps pointing to MORMON.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/20|
I don't believe God who is Spirit , as the Word and Holy Spirit included were gender specific. I know scripture refers to God as Father He, etc, but ADAM was the first MAN created 6000 years ago. Jesus was made in the likeness of man. Not vice versa.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
---kath4453 on 7/30/20|
We seem to be arguing not about whether he was a fleshy human being, but whether he was a "man". So what does "man" actually mean?
Dictionary defines "man" as 1. adult male person, 2. member of Homo Sapiens species, 3. the species collectively. You clearly mean 1. I mean 2. What does the Bible mean?
Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie" clearly means 2, and NOT 1.
The frequently-used term "son of man" clearly means 2 or 3.
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" indicates that he was not flesh before, and then was later changed into flesh.
---StrongAxe on 7/30/20|
Axe, the Man Christ Jesus has always existed. Jesus Christ is a Man, always has and always will be a Man. If what you are saying is, was He in human form? Not until He was born. And yes, He is called the Word, The Angel of the Lord in some cases, The Son of God in other places.
But the Man Christ Jesus has always existed. He even said that He was the same yesterday, today, and forever.
---ven. on 7/30/20|
Exactly Strongaxe. Ven doesn't grasp the English language well, as I've noticed in many of his posts. He argues against well grounded Christian doctrine. Or else he purposely pretends he thinks your saying this or that in order to argue for no reason.
My point in Ephesians is that no one was IN CHRIST JESUS before the foundation of the world. And no one was IN THE WORD before He was made flesh at His incarnation. The WORD was made flesh, born of a virgin and was then named Jesus Christ. And yes Mormons believe Jesus was a man before Adam was created and man was created after the image of the man Jesus Christ. WRONG.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/20|
You are confused about what kathr4453 believes, and are leaping to judgment, by hastily taking a few words out of context.
Mormon belief was that Jesus (and Jehovah) pre-existed AS HUMAN BEINGS. That is the heresy. Christianity teaches that Jesus existed in divine form in the beginning, but he only BECAME flesh later - two millenia years ago.
"Jesus" (or, or accurately, "The Word", since the name "Jesus" was given to him at birth) existed from the beginning of time. "The MAN Jesus" was born around 2023 years ago. Do you understand the difference now?
---StrongAxe on 7/29/20|
Kath, here is why I kno that you are not a Christian, You say:
"So are you saying Jesus the MAN CHRIST JESUS pre-existed too.....ALSO A MORMON BELIEF."
I will let you into the secret, Jesus Christ has always existed. Jesus Christ is God. He is at the right hand of the Father. And, He was with the Father before time begin. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. So yes, He pre-existed
---ven. on 7/29/20|
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Dialectic looks at seemingly contradictory statements, realizes that they paint two sides of a picture, and looks past the contradictions to see a more complete view.
Three blind men examined an elephant. One felt its tail and said it's a rope. One felt its leg and said it's like a tree. One felt its trunk and said it's a snake. All statements were mutually contradictory, and painted incomplete pictures of an elephant, but when combined, they gave a better picture.
One can look at many places where the Bible seems to contradict itself and just stop there, or one can look past the seeming contradictions to see what truth lies between them.
---StrongAxe on 7/26/20|
Strongaxe. That can also be used with love / hate.
All who love don't hate
All who hate don't love
You either love or hate and there is no middle ground. At least this is what the Bible says.
Still has nothing to do with Jerry's nasty comment ....or why he even jumped in here and injected that bazaar comment into this conversation.
---kathr4453 on 7/26/20|
An example of dialectic:
Thesis: All who are not against Jesus are for him. (Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50)
Antithesis: All who are not for Jesus are against him. (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23,
Synthesis: Everyone is either for Jesus or against him. There is no neutral middle ground.
---StrongAxe on 7/26/20|
Synthesis....hmmmm. I see Paul uses this conflicting truth when he said ALWAYS BEARING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF THE LORD JESUS THAT THE LIFE ALSO OF JESUS MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST IN OUR BODY. 2 CORINTHIANS 4:10.
Jerry there is also chemical synthesis. MARXISM did not make up this definition, but possibly used it in his politics. However, you idiot, Strongaxe was relating to the spiritual just as did Paul you MORON. We're not talking politics you dumb bunny. What a MORON, JUST LIKE TRUMP. Doesn't read, where only fools rush in where angels dare to tread..
---kathr4453 on 7/25/20|
God also knew there would be His Chosen People ISRAEL the EARTHLY DESCENDENTS of Jacob, where God renamed JACOB Israel. But did Jews and Gentile spirit babies also preexist? God said of Israel, the nation, YOU ONLY HAVE I KNOWN OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH. So as I asked ven before, was he a Jew spirit baby or Gentile spirit baby?
Also notice in the Ephesians ven posted. Vs 4, Q: we're we already HOLY AND BLAMELESS "IN HIM," meaning IN CHRIST, already adopted as SONS BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF before the foundation of the world? So are you saying Jesus the MAN CHRIST JESUS pre-existed too.....ALSO A MORMON BELIEF.
---kath4453 on 7/25/20|
My Children, before they were ever born were CHOSEN to be heirs of my estate and to inherit everything. They didn't have to actually exist first to be heirs according to my will. But the THOUGHT OF THEM knowing I would have Children is why I had this will made up beforehand. Now my will will not go into effect until I die, but it's all laid out.
God knew before the foundation of the world that man would be created, as this was also PURPOSED before the foundation of the world.
Hell was made for the fallen Angels, not man, yet if God already knew some were predestined to hell, and those preexisted were destined to hell, and seeing now men will go to hell, why were the not included THEN?
God said...LET US REASON TOGETHER.
---kat453 on 7/25/20|
ax: "You have two opposed ideas (thesis and antithesis), and the combination of these yields a new and different truth that embodies both of these conflicting truths (synthesis)."
Spoken like a true Marxist - quoting the Hegelian Dialectic. Are you hoping for a marvelous new civilization to arise from the ruin caused by the rioting of your BLM/Antifa comrades? It hasn't worked before - not likely that it will this time.
What will it take to get your head out of the dark place where it currently resides?
---jerry6593 on 7/25/20|
The Bible teaches BOTH determinism AND free will, in different places. You can't take one and discard the other, because it's inconvenient to you.
From God's perspective, that of someone who knows everything, and can see the universe from the outside, he knows what is going to happen.
But from our perspective, the perspective of of someone INSIDE the universe, who does NOT know everything, we are free to make our own choices, and are held accountable for those choices.
This is the essence of dialectic (Greek "two words"). You have two opposed ideas (thesis and antithesis), and the combination of these yields a new and different truth that embodies both of these conflicting truths (synthesis).
---StrongAxe on 7/25/20|
We did not pre-exist before the foundation of the world. You are using human logic and not SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. That Doctrine was counted as heresy right at the beginning of he Church age, and only Mormons believe it. Strongaxe showed scripture Mormons take out of context re baptizing for the dead. SO YOU SEE, the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED . You just proved you are not spiritually minded , but carnal minded. The CHURCH was in Gods thoughts before the foundation of the World. But members didn't enter in until AFTER we were born then becoming a soul/spirit and THEN received Christ becoming the CHILDREN ( Sons) of God. John 1:12-13 by Our choice to receive Him.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/20|
Kath, if we were chosen before the foundation of the world, and we were, as Paul mentions in Ephesians 14,5 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will,"
It is very simple if you believe the Word of God. So did we pre-exist? yes, God said so. If you want to argue, argue with God./.
---ven. on 7/24/20|
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
I.e. if Jesus was not raised from the dead, and we are baptised in his name, we are uselessly baptized in the name of a dead person.
Mormons take this totally out of context. They believe if people aren't baptized as Mormons, they die unsaved (not unlike many Christians). OTHER people can be "bapized for the dead" by proxy in their names, to receive baptism on their behalf, so they can be retroactively saved after they are dead. They keep huge geneological databases, in hope of eventually baptizing every human on earth as a Mormon. What rubbish!
---StrongAxe on 7/24/20|
ven, no one was talking to you , so we all know you are thick to begin with, and make up stuff not even in the London Confession of Faith like pre-existance, Isaacs Children, ....just nonsense you couldn't explain if you tried to do it in 5 posts. You sure cant do it in one, nor have you. you've said NOTHING worth reading in one post, yet you do post 2-4 times still without scripture and saying nothing. You're not here to discuss, you're here to argue and force your false doctrine on everyone. YOU HAVE FAILED. No Calvinist has. PLUS YOU LIED, saying you never heard of Calvin....HIS NAME and DOCTRINE is all over the London as well as Westminster Confession of faith. Its your LIES ven that people see.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/20|
Origin was a believer in free will, and he adamantly rejected the Valentinian idea of election. Furthermore, in his interpretation of the story of Jacob and Esau, Origen argues that the condition into which a person is born is actually dependent upon what their souls did in this pre-existent state. According to Origen, the superficial unfairness of a person's condition at birthwith some humans being poor, others rich, some being sick, and others healthyis actually a by-product of what the person's soul had done in the pre-existent state.
Total heresy. Is this where ven gets preexistance? Origen's dictrine on preexistance was condemned.
---kath4453 on 7/24/20|
Kath, these time you posted four post, and all of them was nothing but talk. Your husband must hit the roof every morning. If you were in church they would kick you out.
Concerning baptizing the dead, I have never heard of such a thing. You are reading the wrong stuff.
---ven. on 7/23/20|
The Church the Smith's of 5 generations were members of the Congregational Church in Topsfield MA was founded by the puritan who were Calvinists. 5 generations of Calvinism is hard to break away from.
The whole idea of baptizing for the dead ,no other church does this or teaches this come out of him being told, maybe by family who believed in infant Baptism, another Calvinist belief Calvin held on to from his RCC days murdering the Anabaptist who believed in believers baptism, Smith was told that Alvin his firstborn infant son who died in infancy before being baptized would not go to heaven. Baptizing for the dead is making sure they do to go heaven. They were even baptizing dead Jews, of which the Jewish community asked them to stop.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/20|
This says it all.
The teaching of preexistence (also called premortality) says that prior to their birth into mortality, all people were begotten spirit children of God and lived with him (Robert L. Millet et al. LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference (Salt Lake City: Deseret Books Co., 2011), p. 498). In fact, the Ensign magazine reports that of all the major Christian churches, only The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the human race lived in a premortal existence with God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ (Ensign, February 2006, p. 30).
---kath4453 on 7/22/20|
Samuel, His family of 5 generations was from Topsfield MA, the very heart of Calvinism. Joseph turned away from whatever church because he was told after his infant son died that it was not going to heaven because he had not been baptized as a baby. Again, REFORMED still believes many RCC teachings. The "CITY ON A HILL" verbiage and a big painted EYE, on the ceiling all came from CALVINISM, ...
There are several articles on this issue. Joseph started his own religion out of anger, took many ideas for his new religion from REFORMED. Mormonism is also set up as a Theocracy IN Utah as the Calvinist's tried to do with MA. The idea of preexistance came out of the teachings of predestination.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/20|
Baylor University had Mormon's on their staff teaching at this Baptist CHRISTIAN college. A Baptist minister left and is now Mormon.
Ravi Zacharias , came under much controversy in 2004 when he went out to The Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City and basically said there was no difference between Mormonism and Christians, AND WAS OUTRAGED WHEN CHRISTIANS CANE ALONG TO SHARE THE GOSPEL. So we have been seeing this unholy union creeping into the Church for years. I was in a Baptist Church at one time in my life where the Pastor said we should be more like Mormons and couldn't say enough good about them. This gives baby Christians a mixed message. So it's fair to say MORMONISM is creeping into our churches.
---kath4453 on 7/22/20|
VEN sees things not there. Romans 9:
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
There is no scripture saying we are Isaac's children . No scripture states regarding the Church OR earthly Israel that Isaac is our father.
ABRAHAM IS THE FATHER OF THE CIRCUMCISION AND UNCIRCUMCISION. ROMANS 4.
---kathr4453 on 7/21/20|
Dear Kathyr You are incorrect on Latter day Saints or Mormons which is their nickname. Smith came from a number of different groups. Mixing stuff together.
Christians for centuries taught that those who are Born again are Children of Abraham like Issac.
This new Doctrine of Dispensationalism is the one that sets up Israel as still Israel.
Christians are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/21/20|
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Ven you are partially correct.
TULIP is a false teaching. This has been argued about for hundreds of years.
Wesley and Arminius are correct. Not Calvin.
The Bible no where teaches limited atonement and that GOD choose people to hate.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/21/20|
Romans 4:16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,17, as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God who giveth life to the dead, and calleth those things which are not as though they were,18, who against hope, believed in hope that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, SO SHALL THY SEED BE.
Satan has blinded ven's eyes/mind to not understand these verses. He will post the same verse that does NOT say Isaac is our father or we are Isaac's spiritual children .
---kath4453 on 7/21/20|
Kath, you did a lot of talk and no passage to proof you are right. You write, look at Romans 3, or Galatians, and so on, then you claim you talked to a reform preacher and claim Joseph Smith came out of Calvinism, just so many lies. I don't know when it will stop. The Holy Spirit does not bring confusion, you do. Three more post with nothing but lies.
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, nor are they all children because they are Abrahams descendants, but: through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Romans 9:1-8.
---ven. on 7/21/20|
In doing more research, and suggested by the Pastor I spoke with, what ven believes re Isaac is absolutely Mormon doctrine. It is no where taught in any Christian Churches, Reformed or not.
For ven to lie here is appalling.
There is not one scripture we are Isaac's spiritual Children. That along with the belief of preexistance is ALL MORMON DOCTRINE. It wouldn't be the first time Mormons have misrepresented themselves here to troll and cause havoc in hopes to recruit members. Your welcome to do your own research . Or else there is another cult out there posing as Reformed believers twisting scripture. The two have much in common as Joseph Smith came out of Calvinism to start his own religion.
---kathr4453 on 7/20/20|
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If one were to study , Jesus we would see the seed promised in Genesis 3:15 came through the line of Seth, and goes all the way back to Adam, and forward from Isaac to Jacob to the a tribe of Judah, through the seed of David, just as Paul states in Romans 1:3.
The PROMISE was that Abraham and SARAH would have this promised child, not Abraham and anyone...as Hagar. It doesn't have a deeper meaning than that ven. Romans 4 also clarify this fact.
Your secret society of Isaac's seed being you is not scriptural, seeing scripture does not say SEEDS, but ONE SEED WHICH IS CHRIST. Abraham married after Sarah died and had six more children, also NOT the lineage of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/20/20|
I just called an acquaintance who is a Reformed Preacher for years and years, said ven is confused. He said he never heard of us being Isaac's spiritual children. We are BY FAITH ABRAHAMS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN, even those who came from Ishmaels earthly lineage BY FAITH in Jesus Christ are also Abrahams SPIRITUAL CHILDREN. Romans and the Gospels and Galatians make this clear. As far as preexisting, again he believes because God knows beginning to end just as God KNOWS how things end doesn't mean they preexisted in order to end. Same with us. God knows who WILL BE written in the lambs book of life and names are added daily.
It was a great talk.
---kath4453 on 7/20/20|
Mercy, did this train jump the tracks.
---NurseRobert on 7/20/20|
I believe the reason you do not know the answer is because you do not want to be wrong again. It must hurt for someone to find out your answers have being wrong all along. You continue to post three or four post with a lot of talk and of course many Scriptures to confuse what you are saying because you do not know the answers to the questions. And you claim the Holy Spirit is helping you,
Here is another clue, As Christians we are children of promise. Why? because the promises were made to Isaac and his seed, not the seed of Ishmael. And remember they both were from Abraham, but only one is of the promise. The other is the Israel of the flesh. The line of Jesus is through the line of Isaac.
---ven. on 7/20/20|
Dave, concerning your question or post, I believe there is many denominations which seem to differ very little in points of doctrine. One of the biggest differences is not whether one worships on Saturday or Sunday, but whether one is saved by God, or one saves himself with his free will. Whether God does the choosing or man does the choosing. Man is a sinner, dead and unable to talk, hear or see. Not a little dead but completely dead.
---ven. on 7/20/20|
Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
---kathr4453 on 7/19/20|
Only in your imagination ven is there two Israel's ...there is only ONE ISRAEL. Jacob was renamed Israel, not Isaac...HA HA.
ISRAEL the Nation belong to God the Father.
THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST made up of Jew and Gentiles making One new man, the NEW CREATURE Is not Israel, in any way shape or form , or another Israel or a spiritual Israel. The Church belongs to THE SON. BONE OF HIS BONE FLESH OF HIS FLESH, who is not seen after the Flesh anymore ven. It means being ONE IN CHRIST. HE IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.
How many times does this need to be said before you get it?
---kathr4453 on 7/19/20|
Verse 9 continues: FOR THIS IS A WORD OF PROMISE, according to this season will I come and SARAH shall have a son, and not only so but Rebecca also shall conceive my one, by our father Isaac.Jacob was chosen. God Is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. NOT Abraham Ishmael and Esau. The SEED which is Christ was promised to come through Abraham AND SARAH. God PROMISED Abraham he and Sarah would have this promised child. Abraham lapsed and Ishmael was born . WOOPS! God still kept His Promise and Isaac the promised child was born via Abraham and SARAH...the FREE WOMAN.
There is nothing here ven suggesting you are Isaac spiritual children.
We are Children of God, Begotten again to a living hope THROUGH JESUS CHRIST NOT ISAAC.
---kathr4453 on 7/19/20|
Kath, again you talked a lot and never answered my questions, which Israel is going to be saved. Israel of the flesh or Israel of God? Stop talking so much and if you have the Holy Spirit you should be able to give scripture that tells us which of the two will be saved. Remember, " It is not that the word of God has taken no effect, for they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham, but in Isaac your seed shall be called, that is, those who are the children of the flesh, those are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted as the seed." (Romans 9:6-8 ).
I thought I would give you some help.
---ven. on 7/18/20|
ven, you post scripture you don't comprehend, NEITHER JEW OR GENTILE, should be a clue....THE CHURCH, THIS MYSTERY , IS WE ARE "A NEW CREATION" A NEW MAN , so unique, never before , has a higher calling, is NOT SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. The body of Christ is not Israel, spiritual or not spiritual PERIOD. We are a BRAND NEW CREATURE. If God wanted us to be a SPIRITUAL ISRAEL , He would simply come out and say so. YOUR OVERACTIVE IMAGINATION comes up with these new words and definitions not in scripture in order to support a CULT.
Your faith is GNOSTICISM, having private interpretation FORBIDDED BY GOD. You need to ask the Lord to WASH THAT DOCTRINE OUT OF YOUR MIND, and renew it with the TRUTH. OBEY Romans 12:1-2. HE WILL.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/20|
Kath, you say, "No scripture says SPIRITUAL ISRAEL , just another one of your added verbiage. The Israel of God is not the BODY OF CHRIST the CHURCH.
You missed :"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made, He does not say, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to your Seed who is Christ." Galatians 3:16. Jesus is the Spiritual Israel. Jews and Gentiles are together one church. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ" Galatians :26-28.
---ven. on 7/17/20|
Many Protestant churches believe in REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, believing God replaced the OT PROMISES to Israel to the Church, seeing Messianic Jew's now, mostly made up of 85% Gentiles thinking they are the Israel of God, who believe God did not do away with those promises. On that account they are correct, however, just like in Galatias they have fallen from GRACE and living under many Jewish laws and traditions.
But Paul never taught REPLACEMENT Theology, As Romans 9-11 clearly show. And Paul shows over and over the uniqueness of THE CHURCH, the Mystery. There is no mystery in Messianic Judiasm, seeing God told Abraham Gentiles would be saved.
The MYSTERY is these are two entirely different entities In Gods plan and purpose.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/20|
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Ven Did you read Exekiel 36 and Isaiah 14? I bet you didn't or else you would see this answer. I WILL YET CHOOSE JACOB AND BRING THEM BACK TO THE LAND. THE LAND ven is Israel. We see this in our lifetime since 1948. Romans 9-11 God showing those promises in the OT STILL STAND. And WITHOUT REPENTANCE...meaning God is not going to CHANGE HIS MIND here. Romans 11:29!
No scripture says SPIRITUAL ISRAEL , just another one of your added verbiage. The Israel of God is not the BODY OF CHRIST the CHURCH.
Israel will always belong to THE FATHER Romans 11:28
The Church belongs to Jesus Christ. Eph 5
Galatians addresses the conflict between the Church and earthly Israel ...that OTHER GOSPEL not addressed to the Church.
---kathr4453 on 7/16/20|
Kath, you have no clue what Israel is going to be saved. Not even with the Holy Spirit's help.
OK there is two Israels mentioned by Paul. First he says:For they are not all Israel who are of Israel. (Rom. 9:6-8). What's he saying here? That there is more then one Israel.
Then he tells us, " There is an Israel after the flesh (2 Cor, 10:18).
And Paul also says,"there is an Israel of God, Galatians 6:16) made up of Jewish people and Gentiles who believe in the Messiah. That is the Church, for they boyh have become one.
---ven. on 7/16/20|
Kath, you made it clear, you are not going to answer my questions. You say Romans 9-12 but don't answer what passages an d what Isrrael is going to be saved. Come on now, you have the Holy Spirit and you say I have not been awaken so I can be Holy also like you. So what Israel? "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). So which it it? Answer the question. It's your turn.
---ven. on 7/15/20|
Ven, I think I've made it clear who Romans 9-11 is talking about.
If you insist the Gospel is telling folks that God picks and chooses who will be saved then you are not saved, because THAT is not the Gospel. That's your wishful thinking.
You are a milk fed baby ven and cannot carry on an adult conversation. That's your problem, not mine. I know Calvinist's are anti-Semitic and what you all believe , so I'm just telling you you are wrong.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/20|
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Kath, before you told me I was not saved, meaning you are and I am not, you are holy and I am not, you talked a lot and tried to avoid my question, what Israel is going to be saved, you say you are saved with the Holy Spirit, why not ask the Holy Spirit for help. Is it the Spiritual Israel of God (Galatians) 6:16), or the Israel of the flesh ( 1 Cor. 10:18)? And please, this time give the passages to proof the Holy Spirit guided you.
---ven. on 7/15/20|
The Mystery, part of it anyway is THE CHURCH is not Israel, and the promises to the Church are vastly different than the promises yet to be fulfilled to Israel the Nation. What Paul was showing the Gentiles in Romans 9-11 is that God's promises to Israel still stand. If they didn't, then there is no assurance Gods promises to those saved today who are not Israel will stand. Ven you harp over and over about the SOVEREIGNTY of God, yet do away with His sovereign Promises if it gets in the way of your doctrine. There is no NEW ISRAEL that did away with earthly Israel the Nation. You are not Israel in Romans 9-11. That is EARTHLY ISRAEL. when Ezekiel 36 , Isaiah 14 the WHOLE CHAPTER OF PROMISES will be fulfilled.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/20|
Ven, you need to WAKE UP, AND RISE FROM THE DEAD YOURSELF and Jesus will give you LIGHT.
Did Jesus give the Church LAND? Wake up ven....put on your thinking cap? Is the Church as Paul states Crucified to the world and the world to us?
Remember in Romans 11...the Gifts and purpose of God is without repentance, meaning God is not going to change His mind about His promises to earthly Israel. WAKE UP, RISE UP FROM THE DEAD VEN, set you mind on things above....
---kathr4453 on 7/14/20|
Kath, :"The Church ven is NOT Israel. So if one refuses to see this, they will never see exactly what God is saying in Romans 9-11."
Kath, God spoke on Mount Sinai that ("if") Israel obeyed His voice, then they would be a special treasure... and a holy nation, Exodus 19:5,6. In a letter to believers Peter quoted the same words and applied them to God's Church: 1 Peter 2:9,10. In the Old T. days God spoke about Israel My elect" Isaiah 45:4. In the New Testament times, Paul also called true believers in the Messiah both Jews and Gentiles the Elect of God: Colossians 3:11,12. Peter and Paul taught believing Jews and none Jews together are the people of God, the elect of God, and the Israel of God ( 1 Peter 2:9,10.)
---ven. on 7/14/20|
Kath, you made so many statements I don't know which to answer. But I will answer one first concerning Israel. When you say Israel, which Israel do you mean? The old one or the new one in the New Testament? In the old one, they all died in their sins with the exception of the Remnant, they were saved. The New one many will die in their sins before the Coming of Christ. Those that die in their sins don't get another chance. So which Israel will be saved? There is an Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) and there is an Israel after the flesh (1 Cor. 10:18). So which Israel are you talking about?
---ven. on 7/14/20|
Ven, I believe ELECT is what has preeminence at a particular time. In the OT Israel iGods Elect, Chosen people for a purpose according to His will. In the NT dispensation of Grace the Church has preeminence of being called The Elect..again according to Gods plans and purpose.
Israel will ALWAYS BE GODS ELECT. and those Jews who come through the Great Tribulation will be in a superior position than the residue of men AKA the Gentiles saved during the Great Trib. The Church at that time will have been translated and GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST reigning and ruling with Him at that time. This is the PLAN AND PURPOSE of why we are called the elect, and being groomed now to take our position with Jesus to reign with Him at that time.
---kathr4453 on 7/13/20|
Ven, God is not finished with Israel.
Romans 11: 26 And so it is written, ( GOD NEVER RENEGES ON HIS PROMISES AKA HIS SOVEREIGNTY) There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ... Jacob here is EARTHLY ISRAEL. Isaiah 14... God never equated Jacob with the CHURCH.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. EZEKIEL 36 is yet to be fulfilled to Israel the Nation.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
---kathr4453 on 7/13/20|
Kath, You are right that Israel was God's chosen nation and not the other nations. Though many have died in their sins from Israel, a Remnant from Israel has always survived and even today: "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:5. Paul is talking about Israel here not the rest of the worl
---ven. on 7/12/20|
I'm sorry ven, but you are wrong. We see often in the OT That Israel is Chosen Gods ELECT, however there is ample proof not all were saved before the foundation of the world.
The CHURCH today is the elect . We now are to be that LIGHT to the nations, just as Israel was to be. We are Jesus hands and feet on this earth today to preach the GOOD NEWS TO THE LOST
---kathr4453 on 7/12/20|
I grew up Catholic too. Catholics pray to Mary and saints, as intercessors (and yes, I do have a problem with that), but they don't WORSHIP Mary and saints, at least they're not supposed to.
---StrongAxe on 7/12/20|
Kath, your wrong ""There is no verse that says "IN THE END ONLY THE CHOSEN ONES WILL BE SAVED"." The chosen one's are those written in the book of life before the foundation of the world: "the Bible says that, all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain Rev. 13:8 Those not chosen before the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8 ESV) You say:"What a retarded statement. It's like saying in the end only the saved will be saved." Of course only the save will be saved. More insults, like the one's you throw Jerry and David. keep them coming. Shows what you are made of.
---ven. on 7/12/20|
Axe, I got my information from years of being a Roman Catholic. Hows that for experience. Most Catholic's worship Mary, keel down, ask for help from her. Many have an idol of her in their homes, sometimes idols of someone whom they like. So I know by experience not from websites. When a Catholic goes to a Shrine, and there is many shrines, it is about someone else other then Jesus our Lord. Of course they don't call it worship, they call it venerate but venerate in Latin means "veneratus" which means worship. Are you a Catholic?
---ven. on 7/12/20|
Dave, you are so right. It does not matter from what denomination a person comes from, if God wants to save you, His Spirit will give you eyes to see, ears to hear, and He will change your heart of stone, and make a way for you to hear the Gospel Truth, belief and commit your life to Christ. That is why I Love the Word of God.
---ven. on 7/12/20|
If you believe that Catholics "worship idols", it just goes to show that you don't really know much about Catholicism at all. Where did you get your information about Catholics? Probably from places that contain anti-Catholic propaganda. Yes, there might be some superstitious Catholics who actually do that, but most don't, and the official teaching of the Church is that one should worship God alone, and not idols. Icons in Catholic churches serve as reminders, not as focal points of worship.
---StrongAxe on 7/11/20|
Married 18 yrs (Cont'd - 2). Real-life experience. No matter what denomination you are born in, if your heart desires to really know God, He will help you find Him. However, in the spiritual realm is where the problem lies. These denominations (which was developed and made by man along with their rules) has opposing spiritual forces that are real and come up against those who are honestly try to serve God with a clean heart.
---Dave on 7/11/20|
There is no verse that says "IN THE END ONLY THE CHOSEN ONES WILL BE SAVED".
What a retarded statement. It's like saying in the end only the saved will be saved. Only Jesus Christ is THE CHOSEN ONE. ven keeps putting himself in Jesus place ....which is blasphemy. He'll never understand truth as long as he keeps reading in
his cult books reinforcing these lies.
Israel God set aside as His Chosen People. Those saved today are also set aside, aka SAINTS. Calvinists TWIST the word CHOSEN and make up all kinds of this and that scripture never said.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/20|
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We are not to be unequally yoked. Many see Catholicism as being a false Gospel. I do know Christians who married Catholics and regret they did, mostly because the RCC wants to convert the other to bow to the RCC. It's not like a Baptist marrying a Methodist. Christians shouldn't marry Mormons or JW's either. Maybe Calvinist's should be on the list, because they don't leave well enough alone but hack at you day and night to follow their doctrine of the TULIP. I'd never be married to anyone who would badger me in anyway to believe exactly as they do. We are individuals who answer individually to the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/20|
Dave, in the end only the chosen one's will be saved. But it does matter a lot through life that both share the same belief. To have two different faiths causes a lot of problems. Roman Catholics worship idols, most of the other faiths don't.
---ven. on 7/11/20|
No. Not assuming at all.
My spouse and I have been married for 18 yrs.
1 Corinthians 1:10
This is what could happen in a real-life relationship if we do not comply. In both beliefs, we can know God but denominations were made by man and one belief will overcome the other in the spiritual realm and the one that predominates over the other belief will be effected in a negative way
---Dave on 7/10/20|