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The Calvinist System

The Augustinian system which Calvin revises is approximately 1 part Gnosticism, 3 parts NeoPlatonism, and 7 parts Christian. Should Calvinist's be concerned?

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 ---kathr4453 on 7/25/20
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Ven, I think you are referring to Strongaxe post.

We see free will perfectly shown with the lifting of the Bronze Serpent in the wilderness. And out of Jesus own mouth in John 3:13-17 appeals to man's will to either choose to look up or not.

No amount of arguing will change my mind. Since I know Calvinism came from PAGAN philosophy....I am forbidden to eat that fruit. Sorry Satan....NO WILL EAT. GOD SAID DO NOT EAT THAT LIE. SO GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN.
---kathr4453 on 8/21/20

Kath, you say: "Most people (except, for example, the deaf) have hearing, and they have hearing as a result of having ears, which they get as a result of being born human beings."
The lost don't have ears to hear or eyes to see, God has to give them the ability otherwise they are blind to the truth"Now Moses called all Israel and said to them, "you have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land..the great trails which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."You can see and hear Kath, but really you cannot.
---ven. on 8/21/20

ven, you say a lot but never back up with scripture. Unless you have any scripture that states God has to give you hearing first, or you have to have this or that first, it's only YOUR THEORY.

That's all the very foundation of Gnosticism.

Even Rev 3: 14-22 doesn't say what you say. And if you say God is talking to the saved, how aweful that God fell so short of His expectations in His own Elect. Jesus says He's going to present to Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle. You figure it out.

Everytime you argue against Gods word, it reminds me of the parable of the 4 soils....God plants the seed of HIS WORD, and the devil comes along and interferes snatching it away. Have you ever read Psalms 1:1? You should .
---kathr4453 on 8/20/20


Most people (except, for example, the deaf) have hearing, and they have hearing as a result of having ears, which they get as a result of being born human beings. Since few are saved, MOST of those who have hearing are still not saved, so hearing alone is not sufficient.

It is also not always necessary either. The "faith comes by hearing" scripture is descriptive, rather than prescriptive (i.e. it does not say "Faith comes ONLY by hearing..."). There are also some who come by faith in other ways - e.g. deaf people can be saved via reading (including Helen Keller, who could neither hear nor see).
---StrongAxe on 8/20/20

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17.
So it is clear, that in order to hear and believe the message, God has to give you hearing before you hear the gospel. If He doesn't give you hearing you will never want to come to Christ because you cannot hear the gospel, people can spread the news but you won't hear it, cause the preaching of the cross is foolishness to you.
The gospel truth is to be spread to all nations because God is changing many hearts and giving the ability to hear the message around the world.
---ven. on 8/20/20


I think Calvinists underestimate the power of the WORD. Scripture says we are born again of the WORD OF GOD. 1 Peter 1:23 reiterate again the power of THE WORD. Just imaging the world's were framed BY THE WORD OF GOD. The WORD SPOKE THEM INTO EXISTANCE. Let there be light...AND THERE WAS LIGHT. So when THE LIGHT OF THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL IS PREACHED 2Corinthians 4:4 the power of THE WORD is more powerful than Satan blinding ones eyes. People don't see and it's not because of total depravity, but a lack of LIGHT. WE JUST BRING THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL TO ALL SINNERS.
---kathr4453 on 8/18/20

Ven, I'm born again, so stop telling me I don't know what it is to be born again. How arrogant. I first heard the Gospel. The POWER OF THE WORD PREACHING THE CROSS WAS OVERPOWERING and I responded and received Jesus, just as John 1:12-14 and Rev 3 attest to...behold I stand at the door and knock...if ANYONE HEAR MY VOICE AND OPEN THE DOOR.....GOD DIDN'T KICK IT IN. I was DRAWN but not Dragged against my will. Even now that I am saved and born again and have the Holy Spirit with PLUS CHRIST IN ME, I'm still not forced or dragged around against my will.

You need to back off with your false gospel, especially to folks already saved . I know how and when I was saved. You dont.
---kathr4453 on 8/18/20

Kath, you still do not know, anything about the new birth. When a person is lost, the Holy Spirit gives new life to the individual, and when He does, the person can now see hear, plus his heart has being changed. He hears the gospel truth, and he beliefs the truth. He then makes a commitment to Christ, and ask for forgiveness for sinning against God. He is now a new person, and when he is baptist, he proclaims his faith.
---ven. on 8/18/20

Was the Spirit of God within Adam/Eve before they sinned? Yes or no? If you say yes, then the Spirit of God left after Adam sinned, because the Spirit of God cannot be joined to one with a sin nature. So now you claim God's elect while they are still in their sin nature , That The HOLY SPIRIT comes within a sinful man So That they can have faith. The Holy Spirit can enlighten us THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD, but doesn't indwell us AKA BEING sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE. Eph 1:13 This PROMISE is the NEW BIRTH. Galatians 3:14 also clarify that it's BY FAITH WE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF PROMISE./b> Ephesians clearly the foundation of salvation in the order God has planned. So one cannot have the HS in them before faith.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/20

Ven no scripture teaches God puts His Spirit within us before we are saved. The Holy Spirit will never going Himself with The old adam. He only indwells the NEW CREATURE. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given when we are raised up together with Him, AFTER WE HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED WITH HIM OR OTHER WORDS BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH. You claim God without you knowing it has baptized you into His death and raised you up together with Him without you exercising faith first, or belief in Him first. NO SCRIPTURE TEACHES THIS.

THIS IS THE MAIN ARGUMENT AGAINST CALVINISM. ROMANS 4-8 Clearly teach the order of our salvation. Justification comes first. Justification is NOT your born Again experience.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/20

Correct we must be born again by the Holy Spirit. But GOD does not force us to accept Jesus. We are all convicted by the Holy Spirit. Then we have to choose for or against.

Love GOD love others. Jesus loves everyone.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/17/20

Kath, everything amazes you because you don't know Scripture. You say, "
It amazes me that for some reason ven thought to use that verse against me, however God meant to use it FOR ME and anyone for that matter that confesses Jesus Christ WITH THE MOUTH...meaning YOUR WORDS.

You cannot confess with your mouth unless God, The Holy Spirit comes into your heart first and changes your heart and puts a new spirit within you, He will put His Spirit within you. You just don't come to God and demand a new heart, eyes to see and ears to hear, it does not work that way. You want salvation out of your own free will. Not happening.
---ven. on 8/17/20

Great Point Strong ax Thank you.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/20

What's funny is Matthew 12:37 is teaching free will. Romans 10:9-10 reiterate Jesus words of Matthew 12:37. BY MY OWN WORDS

It amazes me that for some reason ven thought to use that verse against me, however God meant to use it FOR ME and anyone for that matter that confesses Jesus Christ WITH THE MOUTH...meaning YOUR WORDS.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shall be saved, for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

I just proved ven wrong. I am not Reformed yet I'm not so depraved that I can't believe. I JUST PROVED I DO BELIEVE.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/20

No vev I've been justified by the Blood of Jesus and saved by His risen life. You however again went off the deep because you can't handle Genesis 4,. Clearly showing free will. God's word is not teaching false doctrine silly is that?

---kathr4453 on 8/15/20


You are blaming Kathr for her choice of words - almost as if she had a choice in what she says. Choice implies free will, which diametrically contradicts your stated position that we don't have free will, but our actions are all pre-destined.

You can't simultaneously believe that people don't have the ability to choose for themselves, and then blame them for those choices that they don't make.
---StrongAxe on 8/15/20

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Kath, you are is a false teacher with hate in your heart. You speak of hell as if you know the place. Your answers to cover up your mistakes, makes you very angry so your nature suddenly pop's up and hell rains in your thoughts and it comes out of you mouth. Here is what Jesus says "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:37. You don't even know how to control yourself. That is pretty bad. I do not mention Calvin, or do I speak of Calvinism, what I do is give you the passages but you cannot help yourself, you just attack with curses..
---ven. on 8/15/20

Genesis 4:5 God accepted Abel's sacrifice but not Cains. This made Cain both dejected and very angry, and his face grew dark with fury. 6 Why are you angry? the Lord asked him. Why is your face so dark with rage? 7 It can be bright with joy if you will do what you should! But if you refuse to obey, watch out. Sin is waiting to attack you, longing to destroy you. But you can conquer it!

Why would God reason with Cain this way if Cain was chosen to hell? You accuse God of Duplicity. You make God a liar. This is why I detest Calvinism. It's straight from HELL. And you continue to be Satans mouth piece even after being shown the truth. Shame on you. Cain then refused to repent and obey and murdered his brother.
---kathr4453 on 8/14/20

Nevertheless, God slaughtered woman and children, babies who had not committed sin yet. What does a baby know about repentance? I am talking about the nations, not Israel. The other nations did not have the commandments of God. Only Israel did. They were not asked to repent. In their mind God wasn't their God. The fact is, hundreds of thousands were put to the sword by command from God. Cain was never ask to repent as you suggest.
---ven. on 8/14/20

God gave the ITES 400 years to repent from the time God promised the Land to Abraham. God gave man 125 years to repent from the time he CHOSE NOAH to preach and build an ark, before the Great Flood. God was going to destroy Nineveh in 40 days from Jonah's preaching, and they did repent and God spared them. Jesus said of Nineveh that one day Nineveh will rise up with a rebuke Israel, because they did repent and Israel did not .

God has from the beginning given men even with Cain a chance to repent,,,even second chances.

God promised David no matter what He would never take the Holy Spirit from him. This is the Davidic Covenant. No such covenant was made with Saul. Saul knew not to go to a witch or dabble in witchcraft.
---kathr4453 on 8/13/20

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Samuel, You ask "That is a level of hate beyond belief. But that is what you teach. So why do you make GOD evil?" I write the Truth about God.
God chose Israel over all other nations, God defeated the other nations to give the land to Israel, man, woman and children, including the animals many times were put to death. Many nations died so Israel could live. All through history story after story speak of those who died. Some times He had other nations defeat Israel, every time they disobeyed.
In 1 Samuel 16:14, "But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." God does as He wants whenever He wants. God's not evil, He is going to complete His plan.
---ven. on 8/13/20

Correct Kathyr

Ven you teach GOD does not love the majority of people on earth. In fact he created them so he can torture them for all eternity. That is a level of hate beyond belief. But that is what you teach. So why do you make GOD evil?
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/20

There are no scripture man lost free will when he sinned. He only gained the ability to know evil...he didn't loose the ability to know good. As a matter of fact Gods interaction with Cain prove that point. And all through out scripture God gives men a choice to obey or disobey.

The Gnostics and Stoics only originally taught the nonsense of no free will, not even the early Christian or men of faith through out scripture.

If Calvinist's go back to the root of this teaching, they will see even the Jews did not teach no free will EVER.

Isaiah 1:18-20 PROVE FREE WILL. God doesn't ask to reason with robots either.
---kathr4453 on 8/12/20

Such silly and juvenile accusations. God giving man free will to choose or reject Him tells me my God is a much bigger and more powerful God than ven's puny God.

My God no only ALLOWS FREE WILL,but still has the power to cause all things work according to His will.

Just imagine a world champion of Chess playing a 4 year old. The 4 year old can play and even cheat all he wants and the CHAMPION will still win in the end. That's how powerful my God is. Ven's puny God has to preplan our every move so he can win. Even a movie producer can do that....
---kath4454 on 8/12/20

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Only Adam had a free choice or a free will, and he decided to disobey God. After the fall, all human beings were separated from God. They are spiritually dead. No one can come to Christ, not even you. God through the Holy Spirit has to come into your heart and change it, once He brings you spiritually alive, you see Christ, you hear Him calling you. And when you hear the Word of God you believe and repent.

But no, you have it all backwards, you choose Christ whenever you want, and if no one wants Christ He died for nothing. He would be one lonely God. You are selfish, you want to have the power over God.
---ven. on 8/12/20

was because you finally used you free will to come to Christ. Everyone who did what you did is also very happy. That day they and you opened your own eyes to see Christ, your own ears so you could hear the gospel, gave yourselves a new heart so you could love Christ, what a great moment you had, very proud of your works.
---ven. on 8/7/20

Ven sounds so bitter and angry. He just can't grasp faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Not by election. To as many as receive Him "TO THEM " GAVE HE THE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS ON GOD.

Choose life or death.

The WORD of God is steeped with free choice to accept or reject God. Right from the very beginning God gave Cain a second chance to do what was right.
---kathr4453 on 8/12/20

Linda, whoever you are, welcome to the QA. You stated:" Whether His appearance as a man showed him to have blood running through His veins you can't prove."
Linda, You are correct, I cannot prove that when He appeared as a Man He had vain's, and blood, I cannot prove He had brains either, all I can prove with the Word of God is that He appeared as a Man, not a woman. The reason for answering is that the argument as that God was not a Man in the Old Testament. And Scripture is clear that the Lord appeared as a man several times.
Every time the Lord spoke in the Old Testament it was always Christ.
---ven. on 8/9/20

Ven, I showed you scripture Jesus was made flesh when He was born of a virgin. John 1:1-12. 1 John 1:1-8. 1Cor 15:42-45. Philippians 2:5-8, Hebrews 1-2, Romans 1:3. Just to name a few places.

I know what I believe ven. If The Word took on the form of a man, it doesn't mean He remained in that form anymore than He remained in the form of A ROCK, or a cloud, or a burning bush, or an angel. If you can't grasp that fact, you have some serious issues. I can't help you there.

So get over yourself and your rude attacks. I feel sorry for you ven. You seem like a very angry small person. You're what's called negative energy...a bummer. I will pray for your salvation ven. Once saved, you won't exhibit envy here AKA HATE.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/20

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the Gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. And not only did Jesus die for our sin and was raised up on the Third day, the gospel according to the Mystery is that when we are saved we are RAISED UP TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, EPHESIANS 2:6-7 And made to sit with Him IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST. Our citizenship right now is in HEAVEN. Only the CHURCH is called to do that.

There are those who will inherit the earth, and those who are laying up treasures in heaven. Jesus spoke of both these places. But to Paul was given so much more detail about our HEAVENLY CALLING. Eph 1:3, 2:6-7, 3:10, Heb 3:1, 8:5, 9:23. Paul also states THOSE WHO MIND EARTHLY THINGS ARE ENEMIES OF THE CROSS. Phil 3:17-19 , Gal5:11.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/20

Ven, appearing as something is not the same as actually being that something. You seem to have twisted the context. No one was arguing whether Jesus could appear as anything He wanted. Whether His appearance as a man showed him to have blood running through His veins you can't prove. We see Samuel appeared as a man too after being summoned up by a witch, after he died, yet no proof he was also flesh and blood. You seem to have a problem understanding what others are saying.
---Linda on 8/9/20

Kath, I showed you the very word of God that Jesus appeared as a Man, a human, in the Old T. in front of many people and you still deny the word of God. Yes, He also appeared as the Angel of the Lord, in all cases it was Jesus and no one else. You said He was never a Man before the incarnation and you are so wrong, but yet you read the word and deny the Truth. That is why you are a false teacher. It could be because you saved yourself.
---ven. on 8/8/20

Hebrews 1-2 disagree with you. Secondly, what did Jesus do with His OT body? We know in the NT He was born of a virgin grew, died and rose again with the same body He was born with. Today the risen Christ still has His NT body, and one day we will see the nail marks in His hands and wounded side.

So Hebrews says God spoke to man through His Angels, but now in the LAST DAYS ( WHICH IS NOW ) God has spoken to us through His Son Jesus Christ. Even if The WORD took on the form of a man like the angels did on occasion STILL DOES NOT MAKE ANY OF THEM A MAN. I believe before His incarnation THE WORD WAS and is God in Spirit form. The LAST ADAM who is Jesus Christ came after the first man Adam. 1 Corinthians 15:45 ADAM means MAN .
---kathr4453 on 8/8/20

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The Lord also appears in several different forms in the OT. EXODUS 13 "a pillar of cloud" to guide them. A ROCK, the LIVING WATERS, going through the wildreness, and a burning bush. So if the Lord took on many different forms to communicate with certain people , who's to say He didn't take on the form of a horse. That doesn't mean Jesus is a horse , or a literal rock, or literal cloud, or is every burning bush we see today . Those angels who came to Lot took on the appearance of men, but did not remain in that form making them men. They are angels ..ministering spirits .
---kath4453 on 8/8/20

kath, how do you know what Reformers think or what they believe? Here let me show you Jesus Christ was called a man in the Old T. He appeared as a man in Genesis 18:1-14, Where the Lord was one of three Man who appeared to Abraham, and in Joshua 5:13-15, The Lord appeared to Joshua by Jericho, "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand." and many more other passages that testify that Jesus Christ appeared as a man before the incarnation, in the Old Testament.
---ven. on 8/7/20

Kath, the reason you were so happy was because you finally used you free will to come to Christ. Everyone who did what you did is also very happy. That day they and you opened your own eyes to see Christ, your own ears so you could hear the gospel, gave yourselves a new heart so you could love Christ, what a great moment you had, very proud of your works.
---ven. on 8/7/20

David, I don't know what your experience was like, but I do know the moment I surrendered my life to the Lord I had an experience I will never forget to this day. It felt like being carried up to heaven...but even more it was a reality of coming into the presence of God, the reality of saying ABBA FATHER, not in a way you could see, but that the Lord was RIGHT THERE, lifting me up with Him to LIFE I had never known before, and has been there closer than ever from that day forward . The presence of His Love was crushing. So yes, we do have much to look forward to. :)
---kathr4453 on 8/6/20

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ven, no reformed believe Jesus was a man before His incarnation either.

Man means HUMAN, not a masculine gender spirit.

Mormons do however believe Jesus was a man before His incarnation, which is heresy. They too use the verse Jesus the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Squawk all you want ven, but NO ONE HERE believes as you do....not even Calvinist's.

I'm not sure what or who you are...maybe a Russian troll causing trouble ....who knows. But you seem to have very strange beliefs. Not even Calvin Reformed beliefs.

But just deal with it ven, I'm EXACTLY what God wants me to be and say....and you can't handle it. We're all robots remember. So your accusing GOD ....hypocrite.
---kathr445 on 8/6/20

The gospel of today should be the Gospel Jesus 1Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Acts 16:30,31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

We are to live in love of GOD and others.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/6/20

Kath, Reformers are not concern about anything. You should be concerned for bringing a new gospel, and preaching it every day. That should concern you. When you learn who Jesus Christ is, you will be close to the truth. He was already a man before the incarnation. And you say no, your friend Axe is following your foot steps.
---ven. on 8/6/20

You are most welcome.

Many people fear death, including Christians. If folks could only spend a little time in heaven, as I have, they would see the very best the world has to offer, is less than the least in Heaven.

Not sure why God blessed me, but he gave me a short stint in heaven, many years ago, and ever since, I have looked forward to my return.
I share my experience with folks who are dying, an experience which gives them and their loved ones, hope in their time of grief.

Your post gave me just that much more to look forward to.
---David on 8/6/20

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David, awesome. Thank you for saying that. Bless you too David. I think we will be learning and learning until the Lord comes and then we'll be learning more and more throughout all eternity. I always get excited discovering new things.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/20

The CHURCH has a heavenly calling. The 144,000 have an earthly calling.---kathr4453

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
You have changed my mind. I dont generally spend too much time studying the Bible, beyond what the Holy spirit has taught me. I had always believed we, the Gentile believer, would live outside the Great City written about in (Revelation 21).

I can only assume I got (Revelation 11:1-2) mixed up with (Revelation 21:15), years ago when I read it. made my day Kathrine. God has used you to bless me. May God bless your day too!!
---David on 8/4/20

Ephesians 2:14, who is our peace and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,( Jew and gentile)

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace,

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

The CHURCH has a heavenly calling. The 144,000 have an earthly calling.
---kathr4453 on 8/3/20

Scripture shows that God revealed the Gospel according to the MYSTERY to Paul, where Jew and Gentile are ONE NEW MAN---kathr4453

There is a definitive separation between Jew and Gentile shown in scripture. So I dont believe we are one with Israel....Not that it really matters to me. Just to bask in the light of God, eternally, is good enough for me.

The greatest example of this separation is the 144,000, who will be saved, from the twelve tribes of Israel. Gods promise to Abraham.
---David on 8/3/20

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David, I'm part of the way with you, but scripture shows that God revealed the Gospel according to the MYSTERY to Paul, where Jew and Gentile are ONE NEW MAN, the Mystery of The Church. So yes, Paul went to the Gentiles And to the Jews, to preach the Gospel according to THE MYSTERY. ROMANS 16:25-27.

This mystery was hidden in the OT. So THE MYSTERY is not just the New Covenant either , as that was no mystery kept secret. And as the Church enjoys SOME of the promises of the NC , we do not enjoy all. Re LAND we do not. The NC to the Nation of Israel , includes land. We have a HIGHER CALLING. God is calling out both Jew and Gentile during this age of GRACE to form THE CHURCH. The CHURCH is the mystery. A WHOLE NEW CREATURE.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/20

Below is what the Lord said to Ananias about Saul. Note he was also sent to bear the Lords name, to Israel.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way, for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. (Acts 9:15)

I never meant there were no Christian Jews before Paul, there just werent very many before Pauls conversion. 3000 isnt that many when you look at the nation of Israel as a whole.

The teaching I give, gives a plausible reason Jesus chose Paul, a Pharisee. What plausible reason can you give?
---David on 8/2/20

Also David, you said there were no Jewish Christians until Paul...WRONG. We See in the day of Pentecost over 3000 Jews became Christians. Paul actually helped murder Christian Jews. Until Paul's conversion I believe he was feared by the Jewish Christian community and it took several years before they trusted him and believed in his own conversion. Now Paul is a member of the CHURCH...THE NEW CREATURE, and shows in 2 Cor 3 that the Old Covenant is done away. And those still under it are still blind.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/20

I've never heard of your definition of the garment and winecloth parable.---kathr4453

Please Notice the question Johns disciples asked Jesus, the question which prompted Jesus to give the answer through this parable.

Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, Why do we and the Phariseesfast often, but Thy disciples fast not? (Matthew 9:14)

The Pharisees were the Old Covenant teachers, the Lords disciples were the New Covenant teachers. Jesus addressed both in the parable, as both were addressed in their question.

The old wine skins represent the Pharisees, the New wineskins represents the Lords disciples. The Wine in the New Wine skins, represents the New Covenant.
---David on 8/2/20

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David the parable is teaching not to mix the Old Covenant with the New, do not mix law with Grace. It has nothing to do with teachers. It's called mixing LEAVEN in your doctrine.A little LEAVEN ruins the whole lump. 2 Cor 5:17 old passes away behold ALL THINGS NEW.

I've never heard of your definition of the garment and winecloth parable. Christ in you is put into A NEW CREATURE, NOT OUR OLD SIN MAN. The NC is clearly Defined in Romans 6-8. Even chapter 7 clearly state one must DIE TO THE LAW in order to bring forth fruit into God.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/20

You misunderstand me.
In The first part of the parable, the Old Garment represents Gods promise to Abraham. The promise was still good, but because God changed the Law, it left the Garment/Promise in need of repair. It needed repair, because God could not keep his promise,.... if the Jews did not believe Jesus was their Christ.

You cannot repair an old garment with a New Patch, but you can, repair a Old garment with an Old Patch. The Patch, represents a teacher. Jesus chose Paul, a teacher which came from the Old Garment, to repair the Promise God made to Abraham.

The Jews did not accept Jesus as their Christ, until after Pauls conversion. Convert the teachers...and the sheep will follow.
---David on 8/2/20

....., "So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham" what that means is that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. The rest are not, thats why there is two Israel's, "the Israel of the flesh, and "The Israel of God" which are the one's by faith.
---ven. on 8/1/20

That's odd too, because those who are not of faith are not even Israel after the flesh. Those who are not are simply not saved at all PERIOD. I believe scripture calls them LOST, HEATHENS, etc. We see concerning Israel after the flesh in Romans 11:26-27. Gentiles even before Abraham, who lived by faith re Abel, Job, Enoch, Noah are also not the Israel of God.
---kathr4453 on 8/2/20

David, The new creature is in no way an old patch put on an old garment. Another verse says you don't put new wine in old wine skins. The old is done away David, not patched over with Gentiles.

God is making IN CHRIST "ONE NEW MAN." AND THIS NEW MAN Is not a Jew or Gentile, not even male or female, .... A totally NEW CREATION. And is not patched over with old or even new patches. We are not a remnant of the old either. We are something so NEW, that only those baptized into Jesus death, where we died with Christ, completely incinerates any old, POOF, GONE, and a NEW CREATURE IS RAISED UP TOGETHER WITH CHRIST. BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED. This is the Gospel of Grace. NO LONGER I BUT CHRIST IN ME.

---kathr445 on 8/1/20

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Nope ven, Abraham was not Israel nor was Isaac. Jacob was renamed Israel. And Jacobs earthly descendents are Israel...the Israel of God. Paul nor John, James or Peter EVER say we are spiritual Israel. That is something many just made up because they 1) do not see THE CHURCH is neither Jew or Gentile, but ONE NEW MAN, 2) the Church belongs to Jesus, Israel belong to the father. 3) distorting Romans 9-11 .

and if you say we are Isaac's children, even more reason we are not spiritual Israel. Isaac was not Israel, nor was Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/20

Kath, you now give "
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
What you forgot to put down was the remainder of the passages, "So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham" what that means is that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. The rest are not, thats why there is two Israel's, "the Israel of the flesh, and "The Israel of God" which are the one's by faith.
---ven. on 8/1/20

David, the law did not annul the promises made to Abraham.

Again I agree, the 144,000 in Revelation is proof God has not forgotten his promise to Abraham.

Many miss the thing, which for me, is most amazing about Paul. We all know Paul was instrumental in giving the Gentiles, Gods invitation to the wedding. But most dont see, he was also the old patch, which Jesus used to repair the old garment.

No man putteth a piece of new cloth upon an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.(Matthew 9:16)

How do you repair an old garment?You must use a patch, a patch which comes from the old garment.
---David on 8/1/20


Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

David, the law did not annul the promises made to Abraham.
---kathr4454 on 7/31/20

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I agree, Matthew is a prophetic book and is directed at the Jews.

I see the first four books of the New Testament as a New Covenant, a covenant Jesus offered to the Jews. This covenant, essentially was to make Jesus, Lord. The majority of the Jews rejected Jesus, thereby rejecting Gods offer of Eternal Life.

Because of this rejection, this covenant was then offered to the Gentile believer. Unfortunately, The Jews who accepted this New Covenant, could not accept the Gentile believer, and couldnt let go of the Old Covenant God made with Moses.

Because of this, Jesus chose Saul/Paul a respected teacher from among their own ranks, to bring acceptance to the Gentile believers.
---David on 7/31/20

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. And we know even to this day the message of the cross will bring persecution. It offends the LEGALISTS who think they can earn their way to heaven by their own works. INCLUDES CATHOLICS VEN.

Galatians, shows in many different aspects THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS. 1) Jesus death and resurrection..(preached to Abraham) 2)OUR INDENTIFICATION with Jesus in death and resurrection life, Gal 2:20-21, Gal 5-22-25 , Gal 6:14. and 3) being persecuted for the preaching of the cross Gal 5:11..and Paul tells us any other Gospel is accursed....including Calvinism.

The whole of Galatians is about THE CROSS.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/20

David, no no a thousand times no. That is not how I see the 4 Gospels.

Matthew is written to the Jews and is yet FUTURE. it pertains to the 1000 year reign, and a time we see stated in Revelations yet future. This time was also prophecied in the OT, and is not done away ...not until it...MATTHEW 5:18.

The OT prophecied of Jesus. He would be born of a virgin...Isaiah 7:14....Matt 1:18, Luke 1:27 CHECK

Suffer and die for our sin. Isaiah 53, Psalms 22:1, Matt 27:46, Mark 15:36 CHECK

Abraham rejoiced to see my day...

More later
---kath4453 on 7/30/20

Why do you reject Gods commission to Paul to you?---kathr4453

I dont reject Paul, I just see him in a different light than you. I believe God sent Jesus with the New Covenant, and you believe Christ sent it through Paul. I see Pauls teachings establishing the Gospel of Christ.

I think I now understand your view of the books, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Please Correct me if I am wrong.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were written for the Jews. But since they rejected Jesus as their savior, Jesus created another Covenant, a Covenant designed for the Gentiles. True?
---David on 7/30/20

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Ven none of your opinions mean anything to me. Nil..void... words with no value. Petty insults from a petty small person. And a hetetic. Always changing the subject to personal insults. Just like Trump. You have not defended anything I have exposed you're false teaching on. Instead you think insulting is somehow an answer. It shows you have no armour. I know this subject bothers you. That's too bad.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/20

David, the Gospel was first announced in Genesis 3:15, not the Gospels. I say the Gospels fulfilled the prophecy concerning the Gospel of Christ. Just as Paul knew the OT prophecy , and only doubted like most Jews at that time, that Jesus was the promised messiah. They wanted a royal birth, not a lowely one. But the OT shows both, one of lowely birth coming into the works, and another as KING , and that shows prophecy of the RISEN CHRIST at His second coming. It's important to rightly divide these truths. The Gospel JESUS PERSONALLY GAVE TO PAUL came from Jesus AFTER HE DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, now to be preached to Gentiles. Paul clearly testifies he did not get it from man BUT GOD. Why do you reject Gods commission to Paul to you?
---kathr4453 on 7/29/20

Kath, all the condescending words you say to me, will never make you a true Christian person, it only shows your true fallen nature. You cannot control yourself. You want to be a part of the family of Christ, but your nature refuses to change. Only God can change a heart of stone. You do a lot of preaching, but no teaching, because you know nothing.
---ven. on 7/29/20

David, why do you reject the Gospel? ---kathr4453

You quoted Paul as your proof of this. I am curious to know, why? In (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9), as you well know, Paul says we will be judged according to the Gospel of Christ.

The first four books of the New Testament, I call them the Gospel of Christ. What do you call them?

---David on 7/29/20

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Ven, where do you come up with Paul worshipping a piece of wood when he is writing his epistles? The message of the cross is foolishness to you I see. Yet you think you need to continually TWIST so that you can give some SORT CONDESCENDING lecture hoping you can look above average in your mental state. Sorry ven, no one is EVER talking about a piece of wood in scripture when referring to the Cross. And if you could read, I already posted what the cross represents.

You really are not very smart ven. You simply have shown you can't read. It is mental or physical or are you a from mars?
---kathr4453 on 7/29/20

First ven totally blows what The Augustinian system of Calvinism is, by saying there is no such thing...WRONG, and then insists the message of the Cross is a piece of wood, WRONG AGAIN, , then we have pre-existing whatever's, and then Isaac's Children, WHAT COULD BE NEXT. He also thinks Black Lives Matters means ONLY Black lives Matter.

Something is seriously wrong here. The Augustinian one was a whopper of ignorance, seeing ven is REFORMED, or so he says. The most ignorant REFORMED to date.

Ya know ven, scripture says 1)if you want to look wise, keep your mouth shut. 2) If you want to BE WISE, research things before opening your mouth. 3)If you want WISDOM, that can only be found IN CHRIST JESUS. You failed all three.
---kath4453 on 7/29/20

Kath, the cross is only a piece of wood. We should not represent the cross as something to worship. The cross is where Jesus Christ suffered endless pain. Jesus is not on the cross any more He is risen. That was the point at the time. You talk so much and make so many statements. Represent the cross correctly as Paul did, you did your own worshiping of the cross the way Roman Catholics do. So put Scripture down.
---ven. on 7/28/20

David, I've been doing that since ven so rudely said "the cross" was only a piece of wood. Totally misrepresenting every verse Paul uses the word CROSS, I found that to be highly offensive since Paul never referred to "the Cross " as a piece of wood, (nor did Jesus ) nor anyone who reiterates Pauls teaching on of the cross as just a piece of wood. David, it just so happens in Romans 6-8 via THE CROSS reiterated in Galatian 2:20-21 Galatians 5:22-27 those crucified with Christ are no longer in bondage to sin. But it appears you both deny this truth. Colossians 2 again you both deny. You live before the Cross, ven jumped over it with his election.
---kathr4453 on 7/28/20

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David, why do you reject the Gospel?

Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
---kath4453 on 7/28/20

I define a false doctrine as a doctrine which is not supported in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and one which opposes the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you agree with this, it would help Ven, if you could show where his doctrine opposes what Christ taught. I would show him, but in all honesty, I do not know his doctrine of as well as you. Educational for me as well.

For example, many Protestant doctrines teach the opposite of what Christ taught in (John 8:34), claiming those who sin are not slaves of sin.
---David on 7/28/20

Since ven doesn't know this, something ALL CALVINISTS KNOW, I still say he must be a MORMON.

Augustinian Calvinism is a term used to emphasize the origin of John Calvin's theology within Augustine of Hippo's theology over a thousand years earlier. By his own admission, John Calvin's theology was deeply influenced by Augustine of Hippo, the fourth-century church father. Twentieth-century Reformed theologian B. B. Warfield said, "The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers."[Paul Helm, a well-known Reformed theologian, used the term Augustinian Calvinism for his view in the book "The Augustinian-Calvinist View" in Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views.
---kathr4453 on 7/27/20

Yes they should be concerned. But I believe that Calvin was referring to Saint Augustine.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/27/20

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Kath, Do you know what the Augustinian system is? It is not a system Augustin followed, it is a system Augustus the Emperor followed. The Emperor was a heathen. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the Reform view nor Christian faith.
Stop passing lies about something you do not understand nor know anything about. You want to confuse others when you combine Gnosticism, NeoPlantonism, and seven parts Christian. Sounds like you know a lot.
---ven. on 7/27/20

David I agree. There are over 1001 man made gospels, but ONLY ONE LEADS TO SAVATION.

HINT, any gospel that mixes in gnosticism, and philosophy = man made. No rocket science here. The bible clearly says philosophy is something we need to beware of. Colossians 2:8.
---kathr4453 on 7/26/20

There are an innumerable supply of salvation doctrines from which to choose from, and yet only one way.
Jesus said only a few find it, I believe in the light of this fact.....many people should be concerned.
---David on 7/26/20

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