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How Can We Sin

If Sin is the transgression of the Law, breaking the law would make us sinners. Many believe we are not under the Law. If this is true, Can we sin if we not under the Law? If so,...how?

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 ---David on 1/20/21
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David Jesus Himself said in Matthew 5:17-18 He came to fulfill the Law AND THE PROPHETS. He refers to them as "them". Them is plural. There are still prophecies concerning Israel the Prophets have stated. There are still prophecies concerning end times yet to be fulfilled. These prophecies must come to pass before heaven and earth pass away and we see a New Heaven and Earth.

That verse in no way means we are still under the Law of Moses.

Just because someone doesn't believe your doctrine doesn't give YOU AUTHORITY to say they are not saved.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/21


(Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.

Everyone
95% of the churches today, believe this is a false teaching. Is Jesus a false teacher, or is it your doctrine that is false? You decide.
---David on 2/16/21


RE Matthew 5:18. I LOVE THIS VERSE. Exactly, and where I left off...WHY did the Jews reject Jesus like Judas did? Because the Earthly Kingdom Reign, aka the 1000 year reign, promised to Israel promised UNDER THE LAW, where Jesus would take the throne of David, overthrow the Gentiles who had them in bondage they thought would happen THEN, but Jesus went to the cross FIRST, which they didn't understand at that time. That promise of the kingdom is clearly stated IT WILL HAPPEN before this earth passes away. Matthew 5:18

That's why David. My salvation TODAY is not hinged on a future earthly reign of Christ. Neither was Abel's, Noah's, Enoch's Job's . My salvation and theirs is hinged on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/21


Trav
How can you rely on "numerous witnesses in scriptures", if you don't even think "Bibles are authentic"? That makes no sense at all.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/21

Lets take KJV, it is the sixth translation. Men touched every one. But, men also have dissected these using Hebrew, Greek to the originals. Which takes us closer when needed.
If i take the word Sheep, found 179 times in KJV.... thread of scripture starts.... shepherd, lamb, flock more threads. Intentions of GOD are never overwhelmed by mens translations..... for a seeker.
Possible the scriptures will never make sense to you. Your liberal mindset defends the indefensible.
But, Your posts make wonderful opportunity's.
---Trav on 2/16/21


Kathrine
Like I said before, the issue is not what you or I see as the Gospel. That argument has produced No fruit. The argument which will produce fruit, is in showing folks, their doctrines actually teach that Christ was not telling the Truth. That should be an eye opener!!

(Matthew 5:18) For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled

Your doctrine teaches Christ fulfilled the Law when he died on the Cross. Jesus taught the Law will not be fulfilled until Heaven and Earth have passed away. Is Jesus right, or is he wrong?
---David on 2/15/21




The Gospel is THE GOOD NEWS. This good news that the PROMISED MESSIAH from Genesis 3:15 on and throughout the OT, the very one Israel waited and put their faith in, the one WHO WOULD SAVE THEIR PEOPLE FROM THEIR SIN, was born a virgin according to the scriptures, died according to the scriptures and rise again according to the scriptures. Those in the OT who believed in this prophecy from Adam and Eve on, looking FORWARD to the promised Messiah as did Abraham, to US who look back to the cross where these promises were fulfilled and seen by over 500 witnesses IS THE VERY SAME GOSPEL OF SALVATION. Hebrews 11-12 list the OT SAINTS SAVED AND IN HEAVEN prove that point.

When Jesus came, He came into His Own and His Own received Him not. WHY?
---kathr4453 on 2/15/21


Trav:

How can you rely on "numerous witnesses in scriptures", if you don't even think "Bibles are authentic"? How do you know who prophets are, and who apostles are, and who Christ is - if not from the very Bibles that you seem to not trust? That makes no sense at all.

JESUS HIMSELF gave Peter the authority, so that anything that he decreed on earth, it would also be done in heaven. If Peter called someone an apostle, then by the authority Jesus himself gave Peter, that person was an apostle.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/21


Ok David, so you now believe The Gospel began in Mark1:1-2? so you are saying there was no Gospel before Jesus actually was made flesh? Then THE GOSPEL God preached before to Abraham is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Hummm. Ok now I understand why you reject much of scripture.

I believe the Gospel was first announced in Genesis 3:15, more fully laid out to Abraham, more fully revealed to David, where the promise of the virgin birth would come of the seed of David Romans 1, ...that Isaiah 53 is the Gospel prophesied, more revealed to the Apostles after arJesus resurrection, and offered to the Gentiles verified by Paul.

So David, I believe you have totally misinterpreted what Mark 1:1-2.
---kathr4453 on 2/14/21


The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the Prophets: Behold, I send My messenger before Thy face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee.
(Mark 1:1-2)
---David on 2/13/21


Trav:
....which teachers do YOU follow? How do you know the Bible you hold is authentic,....
---StrongAxe on 2/13/21

I follow Christs teaching as an adult.
When young i listened to men, who took me as far as their knowledge. Men still point, i look, i ask for multiple scriptural witnesses.
Bibles are not authentic... touched by men. But witnesses are so numerous in scriptures by all prophets, apostles and Christ.... that with the only teachers guidance truth can be found.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ.....
If you would.... note the question mark by my original statement on Paul. It is in question..... but he was chose by Christ. Peters choice leaves nothing.
---Trav on 2/14/21




...you must have taught ANOTHER GOSPEL not defined in scripture as THE GOSPEL.---kathr4453

(Mark 1:1) The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Kathrine
Was Mark also wrong, when he titled his writings The Gospel of Christ?

(Mark 16:15) And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

To every creature?...the Gentiles are creatures, are they not?
Now if the Gentiles had to wait for a salvation message from Paul, why would Jesus give these instructions to Mark, while Jesus was still alive?
And why were Gentiles being saved, before Paul received his message?
---David on 2/14/21


Trav
My mission here on CN, is wake folks up before it is too late.
Though she may not see the Gospel....
When a Christian can see for themselves, their doctrine opposes....
---David on 2/13/21

You made a telling statement in one word. My.
If it is my or your or her mission it is not Christs.
Her mission negates Christs. Has in all the years Ive visited here.
She for personal reasons has bought an unsupported false doctrine and builds that leaky house, without stone professing a gift that Christ never authorized but, condemned.
2Jn 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
---Trav on 2/13/21


Trav:

Matthew 16:19 (also 18:18)
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave his authority to Peter. Otherwise, all authority ended when the Apostles died, so which teachers do YOU follow? How do you know the Bible you hold is authentic, if you don't respect the authority of 1900+ years of people passing it down to you?

Again, NOWHERE does it say Paul replaced Judas.
---StrongAxe on 2/13/21


David the wake up call should have been on you. WAKE UP DAVID.. or else please show Jesus brought ANOTHER GOSPEL ? It was said to Abraham in the OT... IN THEE WILL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED. Paul clearly showed this very same promise and Gospel was preached into them as well as into us. Also check out Galatians 3:8, Hebrews 4:2, 2 Timothy 2:8

Paul with Peter John etc preached THE GOSPEL OF Christ aka The Gospel of God aka The Gospel of Peace aka The Gospel of THE LORD JESUS.


If they asked you to leave David, it's because you must have taught ANOTHER GOSPEL not defined in scripture as THE GOSPEL. So did Joseph Smith.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/21


Not every single word in the 4 Gospels is THE GOSPEL.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/21

Except for who these Gospel words were intended too, but u stated you believe not.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jer 50:6
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray ....
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Eze 34:11For thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
1Pe 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew.....
---Trav on 2/13/21


Not every single word in the 4 Gospels is THE GOSPEL. The very same Gospel Abel knew and believed and understood is THE VERY SAME GOSPEL OF SALVATION throughout Genesis to Revelation, that God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sin, and those who have put their faith in THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION are the heirs of Righteousness. Hebrews 11 PROVE THIS. To say there was no Gospel before Jesus was made flesh and walked among us is ridiculous. Jesus came to FULFILL THE OT prophecy about Himself, not start ANOTHER GOSPEL. The MYSTERY however is not another Gospel either, but a more detailed understanding AFTER JESUS RISE FROM THE DEAD and what is expected of us TODAY.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/21


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Kathrine
I have shown you, through the teachings of Jesus Christ, where your doctrine is clearly opposed to what Jesus taught. If Jesus came to your church, in the flesh, and taught what he taught in his Gospel, you would call him a false prophet.

I know this, because when I have taught at Protestant churches, I was asked to leave.....for teaching the Gospel of Christ. This should be a wakeup call for all Christians, but still they slumber comfortably in doctrines which make Jesus appear to be the false teacher.

(Luke 6:46) Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?
---David on 2/13/21


Trav:
Nowhere does it say Jesus chose Paul as to REPLACE Judas. Paul was sent to the gentiles,.
If you trust no other teacher other than Christ, do you rip out every book in the New Testament?
---StrongAxe on 2/12/21

No where does Christ give Apostles authority to pick the Judas successor either. Peters plan, didnt work, Christs did. You stay with their choice..... stalled out.
Every book confirms each other, OT through NT. Only the defiant against the prophets, Christ and his Apostles try to climb in another way through false doctrines.
Rom 11:25-26, Paul explains who Christ came for, so all Israel should be saved. Very simple, no debate, no deviation. Matt 10:6, 15:2. Heb 8:8-10, Jer 31:31-33, etc, etc, etc....
---Trav on 2/12/21


Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/21


Trav
My mission here on CN, is wake folks up before it is too late. I believe Kathrine has shown me a way to do this, and for this reason, I honestly find myself deeply indebted to her.

Though she may not see the Gospel of Christ, as those four books at the beginning of the New Testament, it is not as though those books have no value to wake her, and the many who are lost following the false doctrines.

How???
Those four books are the teachings of Jesus Christ, no matter what one may call them. And by using that very Light, we can expose what lurks in the darkness of the false doctrine. When a Christian can see for themselves, their doctrine opposes what Jesus taught, they just may turn back to the Gospel.
---David on 2/13/21


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Trav:

Nowhere does it say Jesus chose Paul as to REPLACE Judas. Paul was sent to the gentiles, AFTER Christ's death, unlike the others.

Jesus selected 12. 11 (under authority Christ gave them) chose a replacement, and asked God to guide their choice. If you don't believe they had authority to entrust such a replacement, you can't believe any of their successors over the next 1900+ years could be trusted either, so why do you trust the Bible that came down through their hands?

If you trust no other teacher other than Christ, do you rip out every book in the New Testament other than the Gospels? Do you listen to teachers, or only read scriptures and interpreter them as you see fit?
---StrongAxe on 2/12/21


Trav
I have never said,....Paul was on a different mission.

Most doctrines, like the one Kathrine teaches, use Pauls epistles without any reconciliation from the Gospel taught by Jesus.
---David on 2/11/21

Appreciate and support .... anyone that honors Christ, who honored the Prophets.
Easy to out any false or perhaps mislead/ indoctrinated teacher or preacher. Who cherry pick verses here and there. Trying to overcome thousands of verses.
It is harder to un-learn than learn..
Impossible for them to overcome all the prophets, then Christ and Apostles....the foolishness/blindness of those that go against them.
The penalty is stated.... but, their own desires override, showing lack of faith.
---Trav on 2/12/21


Kathrine
Believe me, I was not throwing you under the Bus for what you believe. Most Christians believe as you do. I was merely stating the facts.

So it is not me against you, its the False teachings against the Gospel of Christ. You pointed out the foundation on which the church is now built, is not the Gospel of Christ, to which I am honestly thankful.

And Yes,...the Grace teachings in your church are completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will prove it. Is the teaching below...according to your doctrine..True or False?
(John 8:34) Jesus replied, Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
---David on 2/12/21


Trav:
You wrote: As we discussed earlier.... minus judas- 11 Apostles.... void filled by Paul?
That's not what scripture says. Perhaps you missed Acts 1:15-26,
---StrongAxe on 2/11/21

Didnt miss it.
Scripture does say it.
Read your book and ask only only teacher Christ.
Go beyond your critic, logic tendencies to be the smart guy, wouldnt you rather Christ chose the 12th Apostle? .
Christ didnt answer them when they asked for a replacement for 12 ... impatient they used lots. #2 choice Justus has more and better mention than their #1 lots choice Matthias.

He chose Paul... to our minds and the Apostles, a most ironic choice... a killer, persecutor of Christians.
---Trav on 2/12/21


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I think it has been pointed out to David numerous times that MATTHEW, where this book alone tells them NOT to go to the Gentiles, but to the lost sheep of Israel is somewhat different. We see in Matt 24-25 concerning END TIMES, and parallels a time we see in Revelation concerning a time of the GREAT TRIBULATION AFTER THE CHURCH IS FORMED. This time is also detailed in Romans 11, another of Paul's epistles validating this truth. So as I've stated numerous times and David agreed, this is to the NATION OF ISRAEL and not to the Church, where the CHURCH is made up of Jew and Gentile making ONE NEW MAN neither Jew or Gentile. EPHESIANS detail this difference. The Gospel of John as well... WHOSOEVER WILL is to ALL SINNERS.
---kathr4453 on 2/11/21


I believe Pauls epistles are also founded on what Jesus taught in those four books. Most doctrines, like the one Kathrine teaches, use Pauls epistles without any reconciliation from the Gospel taught by Jesus.

This has created many doctrines, which teach the opposite of what Jesus taught in those four Books. And its very difficult to argue the Truth in the Gospel of Christ, when most Churches dont view the Gospel as the Truth.

---David on 2/11/21

Again this is ANOTHER either lie or misrepresentation of what I believe and have posted here. APOLOGY PLEASE. John 17 is clearly layed out in more detail by Paul. John 3:16...WHOSOEVER WILL...Jew and Gentile. John 15....ABIDE IN ME AND I IN YOU....
---kathr4453 on 2/11/21


Trav:

You wrote: As we discussed earlier.... minus judas- 11 Apostles.... void filled by Paul?

That's not what scripture says. Perhaps you missed Acts 1:15-26, where the remaining Apostles cast lots to pick Judas' replacement.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
---StrongAxe on 2/11/21


Paul wasn't on different mission...---Trav

Trav
I have never said, nor do I believe Paul was on a different mission. I said I founded my teachings on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What I know to be those Four Books at the beginning of the New Testament.

I believe Pauls epistles are also founded on what Jesus taught in those four books. Most doctrines, like the one Kathrine teaches, use Pauls epistles without any reconciliation from the Gospel taught by Jesus.

This has created many doctrines, which teach the opposite of what Jesus taught in those four Books. And its very difficult to argue the Truth in the Gospel of Christ, when most Churches dont view the Gospel as the Truth.
---David on 2/11/21


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Trav
why was it necessary for Paul to be given a commission by Jesus?

(2 Tim1:11)---David on 1/6/21

As we discussed earlier.... minus judas- 11 Apostles.... void filled by Paul?
Paul wasn't on different mission... an educated follower/ teacher of the OT.... now Christ. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Ethnos(lost Sheep of Nth House Irael) be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There are No mystery people now....except to some...
---Trav on 2/10/21


It may be David asks a lot of questions so that he doesn't have to answer all these unanswered questions....very good questions from several here.

There also comes a point in truly wanting to discuss, that one sees its one sided. Then I believe the scripture that states ...after 2-3 admonitions REJECT...TITUS 3:10. As the questions then become silly questions one either doesn't understand the answer, or is just playing you, in order to continue to promote a doctrine not in the Scriptures. 2 TIMOTHY 2:23. No apostle taught sinless perfection. They did teach MATURITY. Two entirely different things.

And just an acknowledgement of .."OH IM SORRY IF OFFENDED YOU" ...that never happened ....says it all.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/21


The Holy Spirit can teach the Truth, I can only show the Truth.
---David on 2/6/21

So far, Ive seen you acknowledge truth but, what truth have you pointed to? I missed it. Maybe because Ive not seen all your blogs. You ask a lot of questions then veer off searching other props when scripture linked with scripture doesnt suit/fit your truths.

Heb 9:15for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
---Trav on 2/10/21


David:

Note that Paul said the Gospel of Christ is the Power of God unto Salvation - NOT the Power of God unto Perfection.
---StrongAxe on 2/10/21


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Kathrine
Sorry, I didnt mean to ask another question which would make you uncomfortable. I was reading Romans yesterday, came across the verse, and thought I would ask the question.

And no..I really wasnt looking for an AHH..HAA...moment, but I do understand why you may have thought so. I have gone down that road for years, unable to change your mind. And you have given me an answer as to why I could not change yours, or....anyones mind.

You have made me realize churches, Catholic and Protestant are simply not founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ. So its foolish for me to argue using his words as a foundation, when many believe Pauls teachings negated the teachings of Jesus Christ.
---David on 2/10/21


David we've discussed this often and I have answered that very question often. I am beginning to wonder if you have another motive for asking than wanting an answer. You ask only to say AWWHAA... now I get what you normal christians believe bla bla bla.

You always steer these conversations back to the same point which is sinless perfection. David, you have often misrepresented me and refuse to apologize. Either your pride won't allow you to admit you sinned, or slander is not sin in your eyes. Abortion was one such slander.

There is no where to go with this conversation. You have your beliefs, and I have mine. They are as far as the east is from the west.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/21


Kathrine
Some of my questions have bothered you, to which I was truly seeking an answer for my own understanding. I see a lot of conflict between your teachings and mine, and I really dont know which ones might be penetrating.

In the future, I will try my best to stay away from these types of questions, which is why I tried to steer the conversation toward the thousand year reign of Christ, which can be discussed openly.

Though before we do, there is one big question I would like to ask. Paul says the Gospel of Christ is the Power of God unto Salvation in (Romans 1:16). What do you see as the Gospel of Christ?
---David on 2/9/21


Throughout the NT many churches were established by the Apostles. We see Paul in Galatians, Corinthians Ephesians etc. We see in Rev 1-3 some of those very same churches with congregations not only of THE FAITHFUL but also the infiltration of false teachers. The FAITHFUL are given promises, and others are called to repent or to beware of. The wheat also will grow up with the tares.

Ephesians 4 clearly state those born of God are given GIFTS..YES SPIRITUAL GIFTS for the work of the ministry. Those claiming to have whatever apart from these gifts given BY JESUS HIMSELF, for the churches are imposters.

We also see in 1 Corinthians what is called CARNAL CHRISTIANS...BABY Christians...who did sin, did not lose their salvation....
---kathr4453 on 2/7/21


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David, are you suggesting you have the ability to see into another human beings heart soul and mind 24/7 and know for certain there are people who do not sin and are sinless as God is sinless? Wouldn't that also make you God or a God?

What I feel I'm picking up with you is that you possibly think of Jesus as just another man who was sinless and if we immitate him we can be sinless too. If you would, could you please tell me who you believe Jesus to be. Do you believe Jesus is God? That might help me understand your beliefs. I'm just having a hard time reconciling your beliefs with the Word of God. Especially the part where there are only a few of you. How can you know that is the case? And who made you a judge in these matters?
---Linda on 2/7/21


StrongAxe
I have met a few, but we are very hard to find, because those born of God do not attend church. They, like me, are more like the disciples in the bible, we go to those to whom God leads us. And no...I have never brought the dead back to life.

We are not the cradle to grave teachers as you see in church. We merely put folks on the right path...and let Gods Holy Spirit lead them to the salvation they are seeking. Most do not find what they seek, because they have allowed their church teachers to take on the role of Gods Holy Spirit.

Without the Holy Spirit, we are like folks who have eyes yet can not see, ears yet can not hear. The path is easy to find, but few find it simply because they follow the teachings of man.
---David on 2/7/21


David:

Once again: If you believe that one who is born of God cannot and does not ever sin, how many people do YOU PERSONALLY know that are alive today that this applies to? And if not personally, how many do you know by reputation?
---StrongAxe on 2/6/21


David, If one follows your teaching, exactly how far back do you have to go in remembering sin in your life? Say if you become a Christian at 50, how far back do you have to remember your sins? Back to age 10?12? What if you can't remember some? Are they automatically forgive?

When I read the Lord's Prayer, give us THIS DAY our daily bread and forgive us our sin AS we forgive others who have trespassed against us. I see DAILY CONFESSION HERE, and not sinless perfection.

The reason I don't adhear to your doctrine is 1) only God also Jesus who is God is sinless. 2) your doctrine does away with justification and sanctification.

This is where I get off the bus David. We simply do not believe the same things.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/21


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..if you don't sin, why are you also promoting daily confession?---kathr4453

Kathrine
A Good and fair question.
Because many folks, though they sin, believe they have been born of God. If I tell someone who sins, they are not born of God...naturally they will not believe me.

But through the confession of sin, there is a cleansing which takes place, a cleansing which brings the sinner from the darkness...into the light. Once In the light, they will have a heightened sense of the evil in their life, evil unseen before the confession. This experience is the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, the foundation of a relationship with God.

The Holy Spirit can teach the Truth, I can only show the Truth.
---David on 2/6/21


David, haven't you stated on these blogs many times about the importance of confessing your sins daily, and doing so gives you a closer relationship with God? So here's my question to you......if you don't sin, why are you also promoting daily confession? It's this flip flopping between your own opposing posts and views that I find difficult to reason out with you.

What do you think of this verse: Have you suffered in the flesh?

1 Peter 4:1-2
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin,

2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
---kathr4453 on 2/6/21


David:

Then please explain 1 John 1. Especially the part that says that if we say that we don't sin, the truth is not in us?
---StrongAxe on 2/6/21


Note that it doesn't say they can't sin. It says they can't "go on sinning" (i.e. "habitually sin").---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
According to Jesus, A sinner is someone who is a slave to sin. They are slaves because Satan is more powerful than they are..thus he is able to cause them to sin.

You proclaim you sin, but you are not a slave sin. Since you are not a slave, you must be someone who consciously chooses to sin against God. Can you explain why, as a Christian believer, one who is free to serve God, is willingly serving Satan?

Or do you believe sin serves God?
---David on 2/5/21


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David:

1 John 3:9: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them, they cannot go on sinning because they have been born of God.

Note that it doesn't say they can't sin. It says they can't "go on sinning" (i.e. "habitually sin"). No Christian is perfect and sinless. Only Jesus rises to that level of perfection.
---StrongAxe on 2/5/21


As long as we are still in these human bodies, and still on this earth, and not fully redeemed and glorified, we will sin.---kathr4453

Kathrine
I have heard this Habitual sin teaching before. Its confusing because I consider a repetitive behavior, as in the case of sin, a habit. Why isnt repetitive sin considered a habit by many church denominations?

The Letters of John were written to the Church - i.e. already saved Christians.---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
Thats true, if you believe being saved is not the same thing as being Born of God. Through my personal experience, I believe those born of God do not sin. I will admit, had I not the experience, I would probably believe those born of God still serve Satan.
---David on 2/5/21


For those who believe in sinless perfection here and now, please consider this. The Word of God who IS GOD was made flesh and dwelt among us who is Jesus Christ was then and now the ONLY SINLESS ONE. Because He was/is sinless He could take OUR SIN and die in our place and rise again for our justification.

In our human life here and now, when we become Christians, Born again, we DO NOT BECOME LITTLE GODS. To say you become sinless and cannot sin is to suggest you have become GOD. YOU HAVE NOT. And if you think you have, why do you even need Jesus today....you believe you are equal to Jesus.

In Heaven itself AFTER the first resurrection it's then and forever we are sinless, as sin itself will not be able to enter into Heaven.
---kathr4453 on 2/5/21


David, there's not enough space to answer all your questions. I'll start here. I believe 1 John 3:9-10 means habitual continual sin. As long as we are still in these human bodies, and still on this earth, and not fully redeemed and glorified, we will sin.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
---kathr4453 on 2/4/21


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David:

Do you know ANY Christians who have never once sinned after they got saved?

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Letters of John were written to the Church - i.e. already saved Christians. It isn't that Christians never sin, or that they can never sin. Rather, they should never CHOOSE to do so. Sinning is an accident, not a deliberate course of action.
---StrongAxe on 2/4/21


Kathrine
In the BOC..very discernible answer. (1 John 3:9-10)KJV, I believe the verse as written, but you dont, for you believe someone Born of God can sin. How do you read the verse?

I believe only those who share in the experience of going through the Tribulation period, and die during those days, will be in the first resurrection. I believe the 1000 year reign, is the time between when the Tribulation begins and the Lords returns.

But since I have been given no spiritual revelation on the subject, my belief is nothing more than a mere guess.
---David on 2/4/21


David, good question. I believe the words IN THE BODY , mean the BOC. Since we are no longer seen after the flesh, I think it means in the BOC. One thing I won't do is decide who is and isn't saved. Only God knows that for sure. An example is the Jewish Christians in Galatians who came in ...it appears they are saved, but brought in heresy causing many to fall from Grace , where Paul labored again to form Christ in them again....I see that as an assault against the BOC...and if unrepentant, will be judged....wood hay stubble. If they are truly saved...they won't lose their salvation, but rewards etc.

I also believe the GWT Judgement is AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ and will be judged by KINGDOM LAW, as we see in Matthew.
---kathr4453 on 2/3/21


David, The judgment seat of Christ is only for believers. THIS judgement is what each saved Christian has done "in the body" for good or for evil.

Kathrine
In deed, a very fruitful discussion and I am beginning to see the foundation on which your doctrine has been built. You also have me interested in your view of these two judgments.

What I dont understand is the evil for which the saved will be judged. This evil can not be sin, for God has forgiven those who are saved and will remember their sins no more. So what is this evil for which they are being judged? (Hebrews 10:14-17) ....and in their minds will I write them, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
---David on 2/3/21


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Zephaniah 2:3 - Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld his justice, Seek righteousness, Seek humility, It may be that you be hidden in day of the Lord anger,

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in light, as he is in the light, We have fellowship ,One with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from All sin.
---RichardC on 2/2/21


David, The judgment seat of Christ is only for believers. THIS judgement is what each saved Christian has done "in the body" for good or for evil? Paul wrote in Romans 14:12 that each believer will "give an account of himself to God." The works of those who have lived only for themselves, WOOD HAY AND STUBBLE, will be "burned up" or shown to be worthless. "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" 1 Corinthians 3:15. This is what I see the warning in Rev 3...buy of me GOLD tried in the fire that you may be rich, and your nakedness does not show. Also refer to Pauls testimony in Phil 3...the WHOLE CHAPTER. "I press on".
---kathr4453 on 2/2/21


Kathrine
I tied (Romans 2:5-10) to (2 Corinthians 5:9 & 10) because what Paul said in Corinthians, appears to be a condensed version...of what he said in Romans. In both you see a judgment for the Good and the Evil.

(Romans 2:6-8) God who will render to every man according to his deeds to those who by patient continuance in welldoing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but unto those who are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath...

(2 Corinthians 5:10).... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
---David on 2/2/21


David, in order to get the proper understanding of the definition of "labour" what I do is look up every NT verse using the word "labour". It's impossible to post all here, but I believe you will be greatly rewarded by doing so.

The only verse I see re "labour" that has to do with salvation is Hebrews 4:11...and Hebrews 4 the whole chapter should be understood to grasp it's meaning. I believe you can also find its meaning in Rev 14:13. All the other verses have to do with working out what God works in, also walking in those works God has before ordained we should walk in. Eph. 2:10

1Cor 15:10, 58. 1 Cor 16:16, 2 Cor 11:15, 23. Gal 4:28 have to do with our ministry or Gift we have been given.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/21


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Kathrine
Great conversation!! I have already been given answers to questions I have had for 30 years. I honestly admit, I dont study Paul as deeply as you, so I tend to only read Paul when prompted through discussion.

While reading (2 Corinthians 5:10), the verse you mentioned, I just noticed what Paul said in verse 9. He appears to say they labor to be accepted by Christ. Doesnt this appear to confirm what Paul taught in (Romans 2: 5-10)?

9Therefore we labor, that whether present or absent, we may be accepted by Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
---David on 2/1/21


GM David, First remember the Gospel given to Paul is concerning at this time the BOC, both Jew and Gentile making ONE NEW MAN. Those today who are members of HIS BODY are going to appear before the Judgement seat of Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and will judge our works as described in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

The verse in Rev 20, a different Judgement called THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT is AFTER the 1000 year reign when the BOC will reign with Christ at that time having already been judged at 2 Cor 5:10.

I believe these are different judgements at different times, where even the fallen Angels will be judged and WE the BOC will be there with God judging the Angels as well...1Corinthians 6:3. This is why the BOC is so unique.
---kathr4453 on 1/31/21


Kathrine
This is nice....and I really do look forward to these chats in the morning.

There are teachings in the church which we both oppose, like the popular tithe and the pre-Tribulation rapture teachings. No one can pin me down to a particular denomination, because I agree with some, but very few teachings coming from organized religions.

One I have a hard time understanding, is what you see as, The Works for which we shall be judged in (Revelation 20:13).
...and they were judged every man according to their works.
If works doesnt play a role in our salvation, How do you view this judgment?
---David on 1/31/21


Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

The Grace of God upon Him is Gods power.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.< 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Grace in verse 21 is describing verse 20

Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

GRACE here is Addressed to those IN THE SPIRIT . Gods power in us does not work through our flesh.
---kathr4453 on 1/30/21


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Kathrine
Thank you for that. I believe I finally understand your teaching of Grace. And believe me, I couldnt be more thankful. For many...though they do not have your comprehension, believe as you do.

You see Grace as Christ living in us, Whereas I see Grace, as receiving Gods merciful Favor. Favor because we live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ, teachings given to us through Gods Holy Spirit.

And since Christ did not live in us when Jesus taught his Gospel, he did not teach the Gospel of Grace when he was alive. So after he ascended, he taught Paul the Gospel of Grace, which was given to the Gentile believer. Correct?

I can see the logic in that.
---David on 1/30/21


David I believe the Grace that is in Christ Jesus Romans 5:27, Gal 1:6,Eph 2:5, 2 These 1:12,1 Tim 1:14, 2 Tim2:9 , ACTS 20:24,Romans 5:15,21,2Cor8:9 , Hebrews 2:9, 1Peter 1:13, is somewhat different in the NT. If it were the same, then it wouldn't have been necessary to state in John 1:17 Jesus came with Grace and Truth. Noah was a "just" man first meaning faithful and that is why he was spared . And CHRIST IN YOU was not available in the OT. We are not saved by finding Grace in God's eyes, we are saved by the finished works of Christ. Even Hagar found Grace in God's eyes when sent away from Sarah, but that doesn't mean she was given eternal life. Noah already had faith in God .
---kathr4453 on 1/29/21


Kathrine
I agree, they are not the same words. Together they simply help to show how we receive Gods Grace. Notice Grace, a Grace that saves, is illustrated in (Genesis 19:19).

Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shown unto me in saving my life, and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die.

I dont believe Gods Grace changed in the New Testament, because God never changes. Jesus taught throughout his Gospel, those who show mercy, will receive mercy and those who forgive, will be forgiven.
(John 1:16)...And of His fullness have we all received, grace for grace
---David on 1/29/21


David I don't believe they mean the same as I pointed out. Paul is not redundant in his letters, so GRACE MERCY AND PEACE are three entirely different words having different meanings but are all attributes of God toward His Children . Surely they all encompass His Love towards us. As I showed in 2 Corinthians 2 it means the Power of God in us, not our own power. It's the Power of CHRIST IN YOU. GODS GRACE IS HIS POWER AND LIFE IN THE BELIEVER. WE ARE SAVED BY THE POWER OF GOD. THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION LIFE IN US. As Galatians reiterates falling from Grace is no longer relying on the Power of God and going back and relying on yourself by keeping the law as they did. Paul said he stayed with them until CHRIST was formed in them again.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/21


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Grace be with you, mercy and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
---kathr4453


Kathrine
Good find!!
This verse seems to expound the word Grace, to mean both Mercy....and Peace.
Which explains how we Grace grows, for Peace will come from our faith in God.

(Matthew 13:31-32).....The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown it is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.





.
---David on 1/28/21


2 Timothy 2: 2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

John1:17 says the law came through Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came through Jesus Christ. We see through out the OT Gods mercy, as well as seeing His Grace . But if it's a word that means the same as grace, stating we can give mercy too, then it wouldn't make sense in the above verse, or John 1:17 or Galatians 2:20-21.

But now I understand why some don't understand these verses if the Grace that is in Christ Jesus alone isn't understood properly.

Romans 5 comes through Jesus death and resurrection. It's clearly defined first in verses 1-2 and more thoroughly layed out in the whole chapter.
---kathr4453 on 1/28/21


David, I believe many see Mercy and Grace the same, yet I see many verses stated seem to suggest each word has a different meaning.
When I see the verse in 2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV Paul is saying Gods Grace is the Power of Christ....not our own strength.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
---kathr4453 on 1/26/21


Nice discussion. Let's keep talking---kathr4453

Kathrine
I agree. And there is a great spiritual blessing bestowed upon those who engage in these chats. For Jesus said, Where two or three gather together in my name, I will be with them.

Personally, I didnt see that the word Mercy described Grace so perfectly before engaging in this conversation. I didnt figure it out on my own, the Holy Spirit taught it to me. But, I dont expect you to believe me when I say these things.

In many of the Lords parables, we are taught to be Merciful. Jesus even said, Blessed are the Merciful, for they shall receive mercy. I went throughout the Bible and every place I saw Grace, I replaced it with Mercy, and it fit perfectly.
---David on 1/26/21


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Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron, so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

David, I have always loved this verse. I also love Ephesians 4 where Jesus gave GIFTS to His Church the BOC, both to men and women, as HIS BODY is made up of men and women, for the purpose of iron sharpening iron....until we all come into the fulness and stature of Christ.

I also believe that truth is like an onion , having many layers of depth, and that we are all on different levels of learning depending on how much GRACE is given to one according to their obedience. So yes , GRACE does have many facets ....I totally agree. Nice discussion. Let's keep talking
---kathr4453 on 1/25/21


David, the power to overcome sin is Christ in you...no longer I but Christ in me. This is the Spirit of the Life of Christ that set us free from the Law of Sin and death. This too is what Paul is saying in Romans 6. Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound..GOD FORBID...DONT YOU KNOW ?...

The old man cannot stop sinning, and the Law of Moses proved that. The NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST has CHRIST IN HIM ...as we learn to walk in the Spirit we do not give into the sinful desires of the flesh. So yes, ALL THIS is by Gods Grace that we have access into this life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. God is so merciful to send His Son to not only die for our sin taking our penalty, but now Giving us CHRIST IN YOU to be our life. Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 1/25/21


Kathrine
I Totally agree. I believe every Christian, at some point in their life, has tried to live up to the expectations of the Law. And we fail because the power to overcome Satan, is not in our Works, it is in Grace.

Grace can be a multidimensional word for many, which is why its so hard for folks to understand. But if I had only one word to describe it, I would use the word Mercy.

Do you agree, or disagree?
---David on 1/25/21


..., and I really wanted to know how a teacher would answer someone they are teaching.
---David on 1/24/21

Indeed it is best for you.
Mat 15:14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch

To The Sheep who would prefer the only qualified teacher to be their Lord and Shepherd: Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, .....
Jer 31:33....the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, they shall be my people
Heb 8:10 ..... Same Ethnos
---Trav on 1/25/21


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Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

David, Romans 8:1-5 is the Law of Christ making it possible to obey Matthew22:37-39. Jesus was pointing to a time when that can be obeyed. 1st John seems to clarify this. AFTER JESUS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.
---kathr4453 on 1/24/21


Gentiles were never under the Law.---kathr4453

Kathrine
I am glad you were the one who answered my question, for there are few bible teachers on CN, and I really wanted to know how a teacher would answer someone they are teaching. And I do agree with you. Best to start a conversation on agreement, to find out exactly where the a disagreement begins.

Paul says we are under The Law of Christ. I believe the Law of Christ is summed up in the two commandments Christ gives in (Matthew 22:37 & 39). Nothing more...nothing less. Do you see this as Law of Christ too?
---David on 1/24/21


ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. But there is a particular verse in Romans 1:17. For in it the Righteousness of God is revealed from FAITH TO FAITH, as it is written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. So right from the very beginning of Romans Paul is laying the foundational truths of FAITH.

Abel, shows before any law, he lived BY FAITH. Hebrews 11 begin all the way back to Genesis....BY FAITH ABEL, BY FAITH NOAH, BY FAITH MOSES, BY FAITH ABRAHAM...All before the Law was written in stone and given to Israel.

They knew they were born in sin....IN ADAM ALL DIE. Now that we know we are all sinners PERIOD, we look to Jesus Christ OUR SAVIOR saving us not only from the penalty if sin, but the very power of sin..
---kathr4453 on 1/24/21


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