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Works Of The Law

Why do some see works in James as works of the Law when James and his examples of works are not the Law. Rahab too demonstrated works but was not the law of Moses either. So what kind of works were these?

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 ---kathr4453 on 5/2/21
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The original text of Romans 2:7 does not say "He will give you eternal life" if you do this or that.---kathr4453

(Romans 2:6-7)...God, who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,....eternal life:

Thought maybe everyone should look at this verse themselves and see if what Kathrine said was true...or false. As you can see it does say he will give us eternal life if we continue in well Doing.

Well doing is obviously not a thought but an action one takes because they love their neighbor, those Deeds mentioned in vs 6.
---David on 6/6/21


Trav:
You wrote: Perhaps <>How long have you been coming here?
---StrongAxe on 6/5/21

Seen your reference to witnesses. Makes me glad to see you passing on what you've heard, wherever you heard it. Be more interesting to see you practice/utilize it. More.
Unity.... through scripture.

Eph 2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

Eph 2:14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,

Isa 8:14And he shall be for a sanctuary, but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
---Trav on 6/6/21


Romans 7 those under the law need to die to the Law in order to bring forth fruit unto God. Paul is reiterating JESUS WORDS ....Gal 5:22-25...The FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT....LOVE JOY PEACE ETC, AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW. GALATIANS 5:22-25 ending with and those who are CHRISTS have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 2:20-21, Roman's 6)

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
---kathr4453 on 6/6/21


Trav:

You wrote: Perhaps you have but in all the years Ive come here you never posted it.

Do a web search for: christianet strongaxe witnesses to find some.

8/16/10 Old Testament Followed Today
12/18/18 Christian MeToo Backlash
12/6/20 Massive Democratic Fraud
5/3/21 What is a Seeker Friendly Church

How long have you been coming here? I can see you missing the one from 2010, but if you haven't seen my posts from 2018, 2020, and 2021, it's because you haven't been paying attention.
---StrongAxe on 6/5/21


Works from Christians is like apples off an apple tree. You do not walk up to a tree with lemons on it and say this is an apple tree.

Christians do right because they love GOD and love others. They produce apples.

Those who say they are an apple tree but produce lemons are hypocrites. So James is pointing to works that show you are a Christian. Not to make yourself a Christian. Or to save your self. Works cannot save. But those who do evil are showing who they follow.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/5/21




However I believe the KJV.....---kathr4453

Kathrine
You believe the KJV? If this is true, why do you not accept the following scriptures as worded in the KJV?

(1 John 3:9) KJV says.... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
(Romans 2: 5 & 6)...God,...will render to every man according to his deeds

And many, many, many more to come...
---David on 6/5/21


The Holy Spirit is given only to those saved. The natural man cannot understand spiritual things. There's the natural man aka the unregenerate, and the spiritual man, AKA THOSE BORN AGAIN,who now can obey His will. We obey because we are saved and LOVE GOD. AND God's love has been shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit WHEN WE ARE JUSTIFIED. ROMANS 5.

We have received a deposit of our inheritance RIGHT NOW EPHESIANS 1:14. When God sees us IN CHRIST a new creation, He sees us sinless because Jesus is sinless 2 Cor 5:21.

1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. We are COMPLETE IN HIM.***COLOSSIANS 2:8-10***
---kathr4453 on 6/5/21


Trav:

I have been using the Biblical mandate of "truth is establishied by two or three witnesses" for many decades.
---StrongAxe on 6/4/21

Perhaps you have but in all the years Ive come here you never posted it. It is good you are now. Why did you wait for decades. In all these decades youve rarely post a single scripture. More rarely two or three together. You cannot as they prophets do not support your opinions. As seen under Israels thousands of witnesses your Catholic doctrine melts. You are a legend here but, in your own mind.
(establishied)

Jas 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
---Trav on 6/5/21


The original text of Romans 2:7 does not say "He will give you eternal life" if you do this or that. David chooses to believe this version because it supports his doctrine. However I believe the KJV which is stated differently. Persevere vs patience. Two entirely different concepts.

James says we do persevere under the testing of our faith, as did Abraham, doing God's will. Paul is supporting James but states in a different way. Neither are saying we have to ACHIEVE SALVATION, by our own efforts, seeing THAT IS SAVING YOURSELF BY YOUR EFFORTS. JESUS SAVES FOLKS. Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION AND LIFE. Philippians 3 clearly show this truth that our life now is IN CHRIST JESUS. RESURRECTION LIFE ONLY COMES OUT OF DEATH.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/21


Trav:

I have been using the Biblical mandate of "truth is establishied by two or three witnesses" for many decades. If you think I adapted it just because of you, you flatter yourself. All Christians should use this yardstick for measuring truth. Sadly, many do not - and end up believing strange doctrines, and rumors, and wild conspiracy theories with no evidence or basis in fact. The Bible very clearly condemns gossip and tale-bearing - because this is what happens when so-called "facts" are propagated without any witnesses to corroborate them.
---StrongAxe on 6/4/21




(John 14:23)Jesus replied, Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

And how do we receive the Lords commands?

(John 14:26)
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

What are the results for those who follow the Lords Commands?

(Romans 2:6 & 7)
God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Hinduism for some, Christianity for others.
---David on 6/5/21


David, I received the Holy Spirit upon faith in Jesus Christ. My faith brought me instantly to the Father. I was baptized into Jesus death and raised up a NEW CREATURE, aka being born again. The New creature IN CHRIST is the new birth, where we are now seated WITH CHRIST IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST. Nothing can separate me from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:35-39. My sins are forgiven. God hates abortion, so God will NEVER ABORT those born of God. We KNOW we have eternal life right now. 1 John 5:13.

David, don't fear for me. I KNOW I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. My life is IN CHRIST, and His life is IN ME ....a VERY IMPORTANT bullet point you always leave out. Gal 2:20-21... That's why I reject your theory.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/21


David seems to separate being given the Holy Spirit as something different than being Born Again.---kathr4453

Kathrine
Exactly, I do not equate being given the gift of the Holy Spirit with being born again. Many folks, unknowingly believe as you do, that they can save themselves. Sure you teach against it, because you claim to follow Paul and Paul teaches we can not be saved by what we do.

But if we are saved when we receive the Holy Spirit, (Acts 2:38) clearly teaches we can save ourselves when we repent and are baptized. For when we do these two things, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Or is that a false teaching too?
---David on 6/4/21


1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Begotten again is being Born Again. So here Peter equates our born again life with Jesus Resurrection. This is justified by His blood AND SAVED BY HIS LIFE. We are SAVED by Jesus resurrection life. Paul is a second witness to this truth in Romans 6-8 and Ephesians 2. John a third witness states in 1 st John 1:5 that we are BEGOTTEN aka Born again THROUGH JESUS CHRIST upon our belief in Jesus.

So being Born Again is not something one ACHIEVES as they work their way up the ladder of some Hinduism kind of doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 6/4/21


Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,BY the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,

The above verse says we are SAVED "BY" the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

David seems to separate being given the Holy Spirit as something different than being Born Again. I see no scripture in the NT that states these are two separate things , and no where states after we are BORN OF THE SPIRIT still must work for our salvation.

If you are BORN AGAIN OF GOD, you are saved folks. God only joins the sinner AFTER identification with Jesus in death. THIS IS YOUR RESURRECTION LIFE. You will not be part of the second death.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/21


Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I believe this is compatable with Matthew 7:21 and Roman's 2:7. ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER.

So we see supporting witnesses ( I HAVE FOR YEARS SAID SCRIPTURE NEEDS 2-3)

Anyway, My question above shows works OF FAITH. That obedience is doing GODS WILL, as did Abraham. Abraham did not just decide one day...HAY, I think I'm going to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham, Noah, Joseph as I pointed out OBEYED GODS WILL. This is the TRUE words of Roman's 2:7 also, compatable with James. Davids version posted is not what the original text states, completely changing the verse.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/21


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Trav:
If you have something useful to add besides personal attacks, please do so.
---StrongAxe on 6/1/21

Hi lighting your hypocrisys is useful saving others time.
Flattered that you are learning and using my statements from past posts on truth established by two or three witnesses. Why i post scriptures in hundreds always annulling your logic doc.
Find the witnesses, find light switch....
Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Mic 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
---Trav on 6/3/21


Trav:

Your last two posts were 100% tearing me down, and 0% actually contributing to the discussion here. Could you please just stop? There is one person in the Bible who is called The Accuser. Guess who that is?

I am not using "your statement from past posts on truth being esstablished by two or three witnesses". I have been using that BIBLICAL yardstick for years. You didn't come up with that, and it's somewhat narcissistic to assume that I'm quoting it just because you also did. You don't own it.

You constantly post scriptures, but rarely are those scriptures actually on point to the subject being discussed. Just like the ones you posted here just now. What do they have to do with anything?
---StrongAxe on 6/3/21


You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:20-22)

StrongAxe
As you can see, Jesus and Paul are both in my corner.

Jesus replied, Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
(John 14:23)


Kathrine
No. 2 was meant to say, those you receive through the Holy Spirit.
---David on 6/3/21


Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,

David, you must be exhausted. And to think you are doing all that and still won't know when you die IF GOD has chosen to save you. He just may not think your works are all that in the end. Maybe he has a much higher standard than you.

But more than that, Titus 3:5 totally debunk your theory of salvation.

I would suggest doing a word search and read EVERY VERSE that uses the word MERCY. The thief who died next to Jesus didn't have time to do your list, however he did find MERCY and was saved. Also do you even know the definition of MERCY?
---kathr4453 on 6/3/21


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Trav:
If you have something useful to add .
---StrongAxe on 6/1/21

Hi lighting your hypocrisys is useful saving others time.
Flattered that you are learning and using my statements from past posts on truth being established by two or three witnesses. Is why I post scriptures in hundreds, witnesses always annul your logic doc.
Keep finding those witnesses. You might find light switch....
Luk 15:8Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Mic 2:1Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
---Trav on 6/2/21


David:

Paul specifically says, "we are saved by grace, through faith, not by works, lest any man should boast".

James says works are the manifestation of faith. I.e. works don't save us. They just demonstrate faith.

Jesus said "by their fruits you will know them", and that good fruit doesn't come from a rotten tree.

To extend the idiom: fruits aren't what keep a tree alive. They just show that the tree IS alive.

These are both sides of the same coin - works are essential, not because they themselves save us, but becaue they SHOW we are already saved.

Don't worry - I don't get riled by your comments. I know that you are genuinely trying to discuss truth.
---StrongAxe on 6/2/21


Kathrine
No.1
We must receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)

No.2
Live in obedience to the Lords commands, those you recipient through the Holy Spirit. (Romans 2:5-7)

No. 3
When you sin, and you will, until such time when you are born again, confess your sins before God. And because of the acceptable sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God will forgive you of the confessed sins and the Blood of his Son will wash your sins away. (1 John 1:7-9)

No. 4
This obedience will bring you into a relationship with God, and through that relationship you grow in his favor and he will decide when and if you will be saved.(John 14:21-23)
---David on 6/2/21


I am constantly saying on these blogs that all truth is established by two or three witnesses.- -StrongAxe

StrongAxe
Saying and doing are two different things. For example, Paul does teach, Not by Works but by Grace, but you claim this means Works plays no role in our salvation. Can you show me a second witness, for that teaching?

Personally...I like you, so though its easy to get riled by what I say, I am not saying it out of spite, but because I care.
---David on 6/2/21


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David, would you give A bullet list of your beliefs? I get confused by your posts. It appears you have been saying for quite sometime :

1) my good works lead to sinless perfection
2) my sinless perfection leads to Gods love
3) Gods love leads to my salvation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but gathering your posts over the years you seem to be saying : if I do good works, God then will see me as sinless, then love me, then seeing all that, He will then make me become born again and then save me.

If I'm wrong, please put the above in the order you believe.

It's just difficult trying to follow you. Either you are changing the subject often, or you believe the order that I just listed.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/21


David:

What, specifically, do I "reject" about "who those people are"? Please be specific about which techings you mean (chapter and verse), and where I have rejected those chapters and verses.

Where have I ever said I don't believe you need any witnesses? I am constantly saying on these blogs that all truth is established by two or three witnesses.

John 1 was written to BELIEVERS. You quote 3:9-10, but what about 1:8-10?
John tells BELIEVERS that if they believe they have no sin, they delude themselves.

BOTH are true. If you only look at one or the other, you only get half the picture.


Trav:

If you have something useful to add besides personal attacks, please do so.
---StrongAxe on 6/1/21


David it's you who reject the teachings of how one is born again, BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST IN YOU. First, you must profess your faith in Jesus Christ, who took our sin, then acknowledge YOU DIED WITH CHRIST aka being baptized into His death upon belief, and yield your members aka submit to God as ALIVE FROM THE DEAD...AKA BEING BORN AGAIN. No one is "born again" unless they first DIE. When we are baptized into HIS DEATH we die to sin and this world and THEN are raised up together WITH HIM A NEW CREATURE AKA BEING BORN AGAIN.

STOP Gaslighting here making false claims that others are this or that because they don't follow YOU. I follow the WORD as the Holy Spirit teaches me...YOU ARE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/21


Roman's 2:7 worded differently describes Noah, knowing the will of God and patiently built the ark. Joseph, being sold into slavery having a revelation of the will of God patiently waited. Job, patiently endured his sufferings ...Moses, 40 years learning from the Lord before being sent back in to deliver Israel. All these men LIVED BY FAITH, and demonstrated obedience of faith in doing Gods will. So that verse is not teaching you can come up with your own list of good works and try to worm your way to eternal live. FOR ONE, only the saved can KNOW THE WILL OF GOD. ROMANS 12:-1-2.

Romans 2:7 He will give eternal life to those who patiently do the will of God, seeking for the unseen glory and honor and eternal life that he offers.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/21


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StrongAxe & Kathrine
Pauls epistles, do say, what you say they say,...but they are written about those who have been born again. You both reject the teaching as to who those people are. And you dont believe you need any witnesses to corroborate, what you believe, Paul taught.

(1 John 3:9-10), No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because Gods seed remains in them, they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are...

I wish I could make you accept these facts, but because you wont, I fear you, and those who believe like you, will certainly perish.
---David on 6/1/21


David:
Just like Trav, you make incorrect assumptions, and based on these leap to incorrect conclusions. You are quick to judge based on your own faulty assumptions.
---StrongAxe on 5/30/21

Gotta admire this guys halo, must be L.E.D. He wouldnt add-sume or judge anybody. Would never accuse you of, anything except in desperation to defend the indefensible. Seems to be allowed in his nameless Church, church of light ladders.
Joh 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
---Trav on 6/1/21


But righteouess ITSELF does not save us--StrongAxe on 5/30/21

StrongAxe
Not by being righteous, but by our acts of righteousness. An act of righteousness, is a commandment done out of Love, love for God or your neighbor.

An act of righteousness does not make us righteous, it simply pleases God. And he chooses to save those with whom he is pleased.

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of Gods wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:5-7)
---David on 5/31/21


THE ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS GOD ACCEPTS: Also read Roman's 10, how Israel failed of THIS righteousness.

Philippians 3: 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Self-righteousness rejects Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and are enemies of the Cross. PERIOD.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/21


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David, it's important to begin reading from the beginning of Roman's 6:1to understand what verse 16 means. I've stated before our Obedience is YIELDING ourselves unto God AFTER we first are crucified with Christ and raised a new creature. THE NEW CREATURE only comes into existance after we are crucified with Christ. I know the preaching OF THE CROSS is foolishness to those lost. Is it foolishness to you David?

Roman's 6: 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14-17 -----18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/21


David:

Just like Trav, you make incorrect assumptions, and based on these leap to incorrect conclusions. You are quick to judge based on your own faulty assumptions. This is why Jesus told us not to judge, because we often get it wrong.

Where did I ever say that I don't believe obedience leads to righteousness?

But righteouess ITSELF does not save us, unless we are 100% perfect, but nobody but Jesus is:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
---StrongAxe on 5/30/21


David, One becomes IN CHRIST by being baptized INTO HIS DEATH, and then raised up together with Him a new Creature. So any obedience would be to total submission to the CROSS. We have no righteousness of our own David, Christ Righteousness is our righteousness only. Our obedience is becoming obedient unto death even death of a Cross. THIS IS THE MIND WE ARE TO HAVE IN US.

No good works or deeds or the law can give LIFE. It's Jesus LIFE IN US THAT GIVES US LIFE. HIS RESURRECTION LIFE DAVID. THE VERY REASON JESUS DIED AND RISE AGAIN..... FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION. JUSTIFIED BY "HIS BLOOD" AND SAVED BY "HIS LIFE". David, what exactly do you think Galatians 2:20-21 mean?

This is the Gospel David.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/21


And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:10)


Because of what? Righteousness!

Know ye not that to whomever ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye become whom ye obey, whether of sin which leads unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness
(Romans 6:16)


And what leads to righteousness? Obedience!

StrongAxe
Those in Christ, are in Christ, because of righteousness. And what leads to this righteousness? Obedience
The problem....You and Kathrine simply do not believe obedience leads to righteousness. And because of this, I know you are not in Christ.
---David on 5/30/21


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Acts 22 Paul gives his testimony that he murdered. WHY he said he was the chief of sinners.

1Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Is thus the advantage Paul had over the 12.....proving God justifies the UNGODLY ....Roman's 4:1-5.

Does David think God Justifies the Self-righteous? Nope....JESUS CAME TO SAVE SINNERS.
---kathr4453 on 5/30/21


And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:10)


Because of what? Righteousness!

Know ye not that to whomever ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye become whom ye obey, whether of sin which leads unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness
(Romans 6:16)


And what leads to righteousness? Obedience!

StrongAxe
Those in Christ, are in Christ, because of righteousness. And what leads to this righteousness? Obedience
The problem....You and Kathrine simply do not believe obedience leads to righteousness. And because of this, I know you are not in Christ.
---David on 5/30/21


David:

The point you were specifically disputing was kath'r assertion that thieves, etc. could be saved by faith - which they CAN be, as demonstrated by the believing thief on the cross. ANYONE can be saved by faith.

What Paul is talking about is thieves etc. who don't have faith, and thus are condemned by their sin. Remember, there is no no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of what they were before.
---StrongAxe on 5/29/21


David, that list is of mankind who rejected Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.....all sin, any sin can be forgiven. The thief next to Jesus Christ :<1) acknowledged Jesus as LORD
2) ACKNOWLEDGED he was a sinner deserving of death and could not save himself.

3)acknowledged Jesus was sinless and said Remember me when you come into your Kingdom.

Seeing all of the above, the thief heard the Gospel, BELIEVED THE GOSPEL, THAT JESUS CHRIST was the son of God. And right to Jesus face PROFESSED HIS FAITH , just as we see all through out the 4 Gospels. Jesus forgave the woman taken in adultery. Pride thinking you are without sin like the Pharisees keep you from salvation.

Just another verse taken out of context.
---kathr4453 on 5/29/21


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Jesus was on the cross, between two theives, literally in the process of being executed for their crimes. One believed, and Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." - contradicting what you just said---StrongAxe on 5/27/21

StrongAxe
According to Paul, will thieves inherit the Kingdom of God, as you believe? Or do you know more than Paul?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
---David on 5/29/21


This is what has been taught from Genesis to Revelation. The PROMISE OF LIFE is by faith of Jesus Christ. The Law never promised eternal life. Abel, Noah, Abraham, Enoch all OF FAITH. The faith of the promised Messiah began in Genesis 3:15. The law added was added SO SIN WOULD ABOUND. WHY, because God knows no one can perfectly keep the Law. Only Jesus who is God can.


Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
---kathr4453 on 5/29/21


David:

You wrote: Certainly not in the way you believe he does Kathrine. You believe thieves, liars, murderers and adulterers, will inherit the kingdom of God.. if they believe.

Jesus was on the cross, between two theives, literally in the process of being executed for their crimes. One believed, and Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." - contradicting what you just said above.

You really shouldn't accuse others of "rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ" when your own comments do exactly the same thing. It's also possible to disagree about interpretation without that rejecting Christ. Please remove the beam from your own eye before criticizing the speck in others'.
---StrongAxe on 5/27/21


David, YOU are NOT the Holy Spirit telling us what Jesus means in HIS WORD. I do not reject the teachings of Jesus Christ as the HOLY SPIRIT HAS TAUGHT ME .....I do however reject wholeheartedly the interpretations and teachings of you David. I've shown you often here your misinterpretations of scripture....and several here just on this thread.
1) Paul never taught the Law after his conversion
2) Paul being a Pharisee had no advantage over the other Apostles
3) sin WAS in the world from Adam to Moses....and because of Adams SIN, we all died
4) THE LAW CANNOT BRING LIFE, as Paul again clearly states
5) if you can't grasp those facts you can't grasp what Jesus taught either and should not be teaching anyone.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/21


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You know I don't believe you can continue in sin after salvation.---kathr4453

Katherine
You are saved, do you sin?
If you do, what I said was true:
If you dont, what I said is false.

Was I right or wrong?
---David on 5/28/21


Why can't David grasp this truth?
---kathr4453 on 5/25/21

Kathrine
You reject the teachings of Jesus Christ and you ask this question. Too funny!!
---David on 5/27/21


Certainly not in the way you believe he does Kathrine. You believe thieves, liars, murderers and adulterers, will inherit the kingdom of God.. if they believe. When in reality, Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin, he did not die, to give the believer the rights to sin.
---David on 5/23/21

I would like an apology for this comment out of left field. Christians don't make up lies accusing others of things never said, but has stated the opposite....like Roman's 6...which I have stated OFTEN.

David, to be honest, it's your comments like this that I truly have lost all respect for you. You know I don't believe you can continue in sin after salvation. Sinless folks don't falsely accuse. REPENT DAVID.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/21


Paul did not hold an advantage over the other apostles. None of the Apostles were Sadducees. They were ALL witnesses of Jesus resurrection, and didn't need Paul to convince them of Jesus resurrection.

The law points to sin. The law will always point to sin. The law was also added so sin WOULD ABOUND. Oh my. And where sin abounds GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS. GRACE OVERPOWERS SIN. BECAUSE GRACE HAS POWER, where the law has no power. Galatians 2:20-21 explain that power. CHRIST IN YOU.


A little leaven RUINS the whole limp. THE LAW IS LEAVEN and ruins GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/21


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David the dispute was about the resurrection. Pharisees believed in the resurrection and the Sadducees did not. Matthew 22:23, mark 12:28, Luke 20:27, Acts 23:6,Acts 23:8.

All tie in together with your Acts 23:6 verse having nothing to do with the Law of Moses or an old wine skins or patches. The Pharisees always believed in the resurrection of the dead. So Paul is saying I AM A PHARISEE AND WE BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION AND NOW YOU CALL ME INTO ACCOUNT?? So before Paul's conversion and after Pharisees believed in the resurrection.


But Again, all the Apostles were of the old wine skin, and all of the Apostles after conversion became the New wine skin NOT MIXING LAW WITH GRACE EVER. PLEASE SEE GALATIANS 3:21-22.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/21


Romans 5...Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

HOWEVER DEATH STILL COUNTED AND STILL COUNTS. JESUS SAVED ME FROM DEATH. PRAISE GOD.

SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ADAM. Funny there was no law from Adam to Moses. However Adams SIN brought death to all. Why can't David grasp this truth?
---kathr4453 on 5/25/21


Kathrine
Now, I see what you are saying.
Paul was a Pharisee, and Pharisees are teachers of the Law. After his conversion he was not teaching the Law, but as a Pharisee he was an accepted member of the Pharisees. Paul held a distinct advantage over the Lords 12 disciples, for he was in their inner circle and could change their minds.

But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out to the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: for the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called into question! And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the multitude was divided.
(Acts 23:6-7)
---David on 5/26/21


The meaning of the parable is what you made up David. You shared YOUR OPINION of what you believe the parable ment and falsely stated Paul was of the old cloth teaching the Law of Moses. My issue was after pointing out your saying Paul taught the law of Moses, which you did, you said I made that up and lied. THAT IS THE ISSUE. Anyone can go back and reread this thread where you said I lied. You got caught in your own lie and rather than explain... Seek to change the narrative. I find that very dishonest David. It's not the first time you've stooped this low. Not the fruit of someone who claims to be sinless. You failed to PROVE I lied. I JUST NOW proved YOU DID.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/21


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StrongAxe
John wrote, Sin is the transgression of the Law. Paul wrote, Without the Law there can be no sin.

Doesnt the fact, you can sin after you became a believer...prove that we are under the Law?
Doesnt the very fact, that God writes his Law on our hearts, so that we will know sin.... prove we are under the Laws of God?

When you go to your Priest and confess your sin, are you not confessing, I broke Gods Laws? If you are not under the Law...would there be a need for you to confess?

Kathrine
I was simply stating a fact. And sharing the meaning of a parable. If you dont believe it, thats your prerogative.
---David on 5/25/21


Funny Trav....another immature and childish thing to say. I believe EVERY WORD OF GOD. All the prophets and prophecy from Genesis to Revelation. But like YOU BOTH, you have your own ideas of how and when, and so do I.

I believe the Promises to the NATION OF ISRAEL come after the translation of the Church...where WE THE CHURCH meet Jesus Christ in the Clouds. No prophecy says THE NATION OF ISRAEL will.

Today earthly Israel has rejected Jesus Christ, but those Peter speaks of are INDIVIDUAL JEWS , combined with INDIVIDUAL GENTILES ( those not Israel) to make ONE NEW MAN....AKA THE CHURCH.

Also no OT prophecy said that a NEW MAN / NEW CREATURE, no longer Jew or Gentile ....its just not there in your OT Prophecy Trav.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/21


Kathrine
You dont even believe the words of Jesus Christ, ....
---David on 5/24/21

Nor the prophets....

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, ......... but now have obtained mercy.

Deu 14:2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Psa 135:4For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, Israel for his peculiar treasure.
Tit 2:14 ....that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
---Trav on 5/24/21


David that is a very immature childish comment. Is that because you got caught in a lie and can't defend yourself?

I believe EVERY WORD OF GOD. I just don't understand or agree with your strange interpretations of scripture.
You make up the strangest stories not supported by scripture. No one is to give private interpretations. Where are you getting your ideas?

Paul is not the old cloth, he did not teach the law of Moses after his conversion. He is as much a new cloth as Peter and all the rest of the NT APOSTLES.

You need to check your words before posting David, especially one who claims to be sinless. False accusations are NOT the sign of a sinless person. You can't be sinless and bypass Romans 6.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/21


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David:

I have been saying for years that if you keep Jesus's "Two Commandments" - love God, and love your neighbor, you will ALREADY keep 9 of the Ten (except the Sabbath one). Jesus himself said that these Two are the basis of all the Law and the Prophets.

Nevertheless, they are NOT an actual part of the Ten Commandments that God wrote on stone on Mount Sinai and gave to Moses - yet Jesus said we need to keep it. This means that the Commandments Jesus commanded to keep were not limited to to just the Ten Commandments. He told the rich man that he would "do well" to keep those.
---StrongAxe on 5/24/21


Kathrine
You dont even believe the words of Jesus Christ, so I dont expect you to believe anything I say.
---David on 5/24/21


Jesus mentions "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" - which is NOT part of the Ten Commandments...
---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
Its not? Can you love your neighbor and not keep those commandments?

Owe no man anything, but to love one another, for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, all are briefly comprehended in this saying, namely: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Romans 13:8-10)
---David on 5/23/21


To repair an Old Garment..you must make a patch from the Old cloth taken from the Old Garment. Paul was a teacher of the Law of Moses, part of the Old Garment. Jesus chose Paul to be the Patch to make that repair.
---David on 5/19/21

WOW so maybe David would like to clarify this statement

No one teaches Jesus died for sin so we can continue to sin. GOD FORBID as Romans 6-8 clearly stipulate. But it's YOU DAVID who doesn't believe these scriptures . Please tell us all why you don't but would rather make false accusations instead.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/21


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Jesus mentions "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" - which is NOT part of the Ten Commandments...
---StrongAxe


StrongAxe
Its not? Can you love your neighbor and not keep those commandments?

Owe no man anything, but to love one another, for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, all are briefly comprehended in this saying, namely: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Romans 13:8-10
---David on 5/24/21


It's sad David never looked up these verses. If he had he would not be making rediculous false accusations.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life5....6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/21


David:

You wrote: You will not go to hell for breaking the Law of Moses...nor for breaking the Law of Christ. But you will go to hell for breaking those Laws God wrote on Stone, and on the Hearts of the believer.

Where in the Bible justifies this fine hair-splitting of which laws you can break and which ones you can't? Note that in the very passage you quoted, Jesus mentions "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" - which is NOT part of the Ten Commandments, yet Jesus says it must be obeyed.
---StrongAxe on 5/23/21


Paul clearly stated here he NEVER taught anyone to keep the law.---kathr4453

I never said he did, but as it is in your nature, you just make things up. But, I understand you must do it to create a foundation on which to argue, since you reject foundation set by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And if you go to hell for breaking the law under the New Covenant ...that written in the heart....then Jesus really doesn't save does He? ---kathr4453

Certainly not in the way you believe he does Kathrine. You believe thieves, liars, murderers and adulterers, will inherit the kingdom of God.. if they believe. When in reality, Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin, he did not die, to give the believer the rights to sin.
---David on 5/23/21


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Jesus consistent with John 3 states one must be BORN AGAIN AKA REGENERATED to inherit eternal life. Please see Romans 5- 8 addressing this fact.

Matthew 29:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/21


Someone needs to read the remainder of Matthew 19. But my understanding is , in Adam all die. So we all inherited HELL because of Adams sin. And because of that, God sent His only begotten son, to take our judgement of sin and death, who died in our place so that we can live through Him....HIS RESURECTED LIFE. OT saints looked by faith forward to the Promised redeemer.

. The only thing God wrote in stone was the 10 commandments given to Moses. And if you go to hell for breaking the law under the New Covenant ...that written in the heart....then Jesus really doesn't save does He?

What a hot mess. Someone needs to really meditate in Roman's 5 and ask the Holy Spirit to teach one what that chapter really is all about.
---kathr4453 on 5/22/21


StrongAxe
You will not go to hell for breaking the Law of Moses...nor for breaking the Law of Christ. But you will go to hell for breaking those Laws God wrote on Stone, and on the Hearts of the believer. Or Is the following is a false teaching?

And He said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God. But if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the commandments. He said unto Him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, honor thy father and thy mother, and, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.(Matthew 19:17-19)
---David on 5/22/21


Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:to whom we gave no such commandment:

David made up another story about Paul being the old cloth where he was to teach the law and Peter being the new wine cloth did not. No where does anyone teach such nonsense, and Paul clearly stated here he NEVER taught anyone to keep the law.
---kathr4453 on 5/22/21


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David:

You wrote: The Ten Commandments!!

Jesus did not give us the Ten Commandments. He DID give us the two - love God, and love your neighbor. Note that if you keep those, you will ALREADY be keeping nine of the ten (not counting the Sabbath one) without needing to be told to.

Note that Jesus spoke negatively about all the things forbidden by the other commandments - but curiously, he never taught about keeping the sabbath, other than to call the Pharisees hypocrites for their own inconsistent actions with regards to doing that. (I.e. they condemned others for doing anything on the Sabbath, yet broke it themselves to rescue endangered animals, etc.)
---StrongAxe on 5/21/21


When Jesus was asked what the most important two commandments were, he quoted two commandments, from the Law, that said to love God above all else, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So, technically, any work you do that furthers these aims, e.g. feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, visiting the sick, etc. are fulfillment of those laws.
---StrongAxe on 5/17/21


StrongAxe
You almost got it.
Those who do these things...Are Keeping The Law. The Law of Jesus Christ. When you, Do these things, you are showing Love for your neighbor.

But how do we show our Love for God?
If you love Me, keep My commandments.
(John 14:15)


The Ten Commandments!!
---David on 5/21/21


It's like the theory that good trees produce good fruit, and "By their fruits you will know them".

Look to those who are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting and healing the sick, and housing the homeless -
---StrongAxe on 5/19/21

Good post.
And will find that Christ and Apostles didnt fail in their mission, (Sheep hunt) Matt 10:6, 15:24.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
---Trav on 5/21/21


James doesn't say "we need to do works in order to be saved". He said "we are saved by faith -BUT- if we truly do have faith, we will automatically be demonstrating that faith by doing good works".

It's like the theory that good trees produce good fruit, and "By their fruits you will know them".

If you want to find the people in this world who are truly Christ's disciples, don't look to those who scream bible verses from microphones while driving limousines to their mansions, while others live in squalor. Look to those who are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting and healing the sick, and housing the homeless - THESE are the ones who demonstrate that they follow Jesus by their actions.
---StrongAxe on 5/19/21


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I was looking for: What is the works OF FAITH?

We often see Pharisees on line insisting James proves we still have to keep the works of the Law. Yet no example show any law of Moses. Roman's 3:27 WHERE IS BOASTING THEN? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? NAY AKA NO, but by the law of FAITH.

Hebrews 11 compliment James WORKS OF FAITH. The Law of LIBERTY is quite opposite to the yoke of the Law of Moses.

I thought the question was simply asked. Sorry.

I guess not everyone actually understands how FAITH works, and how the Just shall live by faith.
---kathr4453 on 5/19/21


When Jesus was asked what the most important two commandments were, he quoted two commandments, from the Law, that said to love God above all else, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So, technically, any work you do that furthers these aims, e.g. feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, visiting the sick, etc. are fulfillment of those laws.
---StrongAxe on 5/17/21


I don't quite understand the question.
---JS1234 on 5/16/21


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