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Explain Acts 2:38

If Acts 2:38 is the gospel that saves today, then there is no reason to preach the finished work of the cross for salvation.

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 ---michael_e on 8/26/21
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David:

Again, what led you to the conclusion I was Orthodox?

I don't have any "doctine" to push, other than "If scripture says it, it's true, whether you like it or not". Many people build elaborate belief systems that go way beyond what scripture teaches.

Whatever beliefs I may have like that are not relevant here, because they wouldn't be supported by scripture.

No, I am not "one of Kathrine's sycophants". It's just that the two of us seem to think similarly about many things (not all things). Both of us have also been on this site much longer than you or Trav (not sure about Jerry).
---StrongAxe on 9/9/21


Well at least David was honest about his sin of trying to cause division here between posters, HOPING I would be as ignorant as David thinking I would attack Strongaxe who I know is not Orthodox only because I do read these posts and already saw Strongaxe say he's not.

But I guess this mischief is not called SIN in the Gospel of David. Seeing David clearly stated here WHY he asked that question , can't wiggle out of it now.

How sad that one has to stoop so low here in order to take advantage.

Trying to look good by making another look bad is the lowest form of life possible. Hotdog water.

Pathetic.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/21


Do you have some kind of obsession with Orthodoxy?
---StrongAxe


No....not at all. I mistakenly thought you were Orthodox and thought I would change the subject to give Kathrine a chance to insult you for a while. But you wisely keep your cards close to the vest, so you never need to defend your doctrine.

I now believe, after reviewing old posts, that's because you don't really understand what they are. You only argue against other beliefs, but not for your own. Careful, I believe you're becoming one of Kathrines sycophants.
---David on 9/9/21


Is Paul the author and finisher of your faith? That comment COULD be something addressing hyper-dispensationalists, who exclusively believe in only SOME of Pauls epistles EXCLUDING THE REST OF SCRIPTURE. They don't believe the Church is under any covenants in scripture, just Pauls select letters.

So I would say, know who you are accusing before throwing the first punch and hitting the wrong person.

I believe Pauls gospel was built upon ALL THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, just as scripture says and as Paul states, JESUS CHRIST BEING THAT FOUNDATION, AKA THE CHIEF CORNER STONE.....NOT PAUL. Ephesians 2:20

The problem is, some folks can't read and throw anything at you exposing their ignorance and credibility.
---kathr4453 on 9/9/21


David:

You wrote: Just look at the rambling going on in the post I started about the Orthodox church.

Why did you even start that post, anyway, in the first place? What possible relevance does it have to anything being discussed here? The only two people that I know are Orthodox here haven't posted in over a year and a half. If you erroneously thought some people (e.g. I) were Orthodox, you thought so in error, so I'm curious what led you to that incorrect assumption? Do you have some kind of obsession with Orthodoxy?
---StrongAxe on 9/8/21




Ok let's pick up from 9/7 when I posted about the New Covenant, before David's temper tantrum began and Trav holding David's fragile ego, as they try to control these threads.

Michael_e. Paul addressed the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3 to the Corinthian Christians who were also Gentiles. So the New Covenant does have a place of truth to all believers today. It would also appear that we are being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord and not by the letter of the law.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/21


If you notice it is scripture that infuriates the cult spirits. ---Trav on 9/5/21

Trav
And well documented too!! Just look at the rambling going on in the post I started about the Orthodox church.
---David on 9/8/21

Look back. Diversions, questions, accusations to control conversations. Anything to divert Prophets, Christ or Apostles statements.
When scripture witnessing scripture infuriates a denom or person something is spiritually and fundamentally wrong.
Truth is freedom. from all men.
Sa still after all these years wont admit his denom or church. Ashamed? Apparently.
---Trav on 9/8/21


Nope, the subject was changed from orthodox to Jimmy Swaggart. And you think someone standing against your false accusations is cult behavior...TOO FUNNY. So if I accused you of being a pervert and you objected YOU WOULD BE ACTING LIKE A CULTIST?

A cultist is someone who says they are sinless and continually breaks the 9th commandment.

Do you know to accuse anyone of anything you need to have two or more witnesses or else you are breaking the 9th commandment.

So David, please find those two or more who will testify StrongAxe and I are followers of Jimmy Swaggart. You can't...YOU LIED AND BORE FALSE WITNESS BREAKING THE 9th commandment....you SINNED.

David is in bondage to sin. He can't help himself.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/21


If you notice it is scripture that infuriates the cult spirits. ---Trav on 9/5/21

Trav
And well documented too!! Just look at the rambling going on in the post I started about the Orthodox church.
---David on 9/8/21


If one reads 2 Corinthians 3 correctly, also addressed to GENTILES, it still states those still under Moses law have blinders on, and how much more GLORIOUS the New Covenant is. It never states those under the law all without their knowledge have the blinders taken away. It says ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS HAVE THE BLINDERS TAKEN AWAY.

Multitudes still live under the Law of Moses. Still keep the Law, the sabbath, etc. They still have blinders on. Satan has blinded them.

Peter never continued to enforce the Law in Acts. If so, he NEVER would have stepped foot in Cornelius's home. And he would have followed in Saul's footsteps and murdered any Jew who believed in Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/21




Trav:
.you ignore what disagrees with your agenda.
I am disagreeing with your misapplication of them.
---StrongAxe on 9/7/21

Agenda? What agenda. Agenda for Israel specific scriptures to be posted that you cant. Well sure.
Their book, their prophets. Their messiah. Their Laws. Their sins. Their redemption. Applied.
Your future education, as you are a slow learner/applicator.
Deu 14:2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Isa 45:25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
---Trav on 9/7/21


Trav:

I just posted some on the other blog, but again, you ignore what disagrees with your agenda.

"these logic eater covenanted scriptures" ?? What does that even mean? What does "logic eater" even mean? Please speak coherently.

Yet again, for the zillionth time. I AM NOT DISAGREING WITH THE SCRIPTURES. I am disagreeing with your misapplication of them.

Since you are constantly making statements about me that are outright lies, I really wish you would re-examine "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor", as it seems to be missing from your repertoire.
---StrongAxe on 9/7/21


Trav:
You complain that I don't post scriptures.
---StrongAxe on 9/6/21

Complain? No complaint here. Challenge. You know that I know you have none verifying by prophet or Christ.
I post scriptures that you dont post. Wont post. Scriptures that few preacher teacher or denom will address or discuss.
You decided early you and your logic doctrines were a more than a match for these covenanted scriptures. And failed.
Then you go after the one posting these logic eater covenanted scriptures. And failed.
These scriptures are truth and light. A candle like specific scripture illuminates a room full of darkness. For some.
Some learn. Some despise truth.
Some its already in their hearts.
---trav on 9/6/21


Kathrine
You see me as a bully and a stalker, because the Holy Spirit has confirmed what I teach as the Truth, and your spirit is troubled. That's why you see me as a stalker and a bully. But it's not my doing, it's God making you question your doctrine.

Notice nobody else calls me a stalker and bully, only you see me in that light.
---David on 9/7/21


During time past, Jesus earthly ministry, and up to his encounter with the Roman, Cornelius, there was a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Peters ministry preaching. The Jews had a special spiritual standing with the Lord. Gentiles did not.
---michael_e on 9/6/21

Yes as I was saying on another thread..the Jews were Gods SERVANTS. However in John 8:35-37 Jesus said the servant does not abide in the house forever, only SONS DO. So we see in John 1:1-14 the way to become a SON was to receive HIM AS THE SON OF GOD.

So Peter is preaching SONSHIP not servanthood in Acts, that even though they Crucified the LORD He is STILL THE SON OF GOD AND MUST BE BELIEVED UPON...ROMANS 10:9-10. the same way you too are saved.
---kathr4453 on 9/7/21


Is the MYSTERY Jesus death and resurrection.....ans NO

Is the MYSTERY salvation of Gentiles ....ans NO

Is the MYSTERY that of a whole new creature would be formed after Jesus resurrection ...YES. and as Ephesians says the GENTILES are "fellow heirs" with Jews making ONE NEW MAN...And this new creature is neither Jew or Gentile. Something totally unheard of in the OT. After the Church is complete THEN God the Father will restore the Kingdom to Israel...AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION., AFTER THE RAPRURE OF THE CHURCH.

But ALL JEWS FROM PENTECOST to today as well as Gentiles are part of THE CHURCH are one body. 1 Cor 12:13. If there were two bodies...Paul,would have clarified that. See it says JEW AND GENTILE.
---kathr4453 on 9/6/21


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David I have asked you to stop bullying ME.... PERIOD END OF SENTENCE.

I have told you often I do not believe in your doctrine. I have told you I live by faith, not the law. Now I'm asking you to respect that and stop bullying and stalking me and falsely accusing me of rejecting Jesus. You are not Jesus. Do you understand? You are not the inquisition. Do you understand?

Now I will state my beliefs, but people can take it or leave it..... You however take it much further. You are just one out of billions of people who have a belief. You were not called to be an apostle ... You are not ABOVE anyone.

I reject your doctrine. You need to get over that. Your ego and narcissism is getting in the way.
---kathr4453 on 9/6/21


Michael_e, yes the Jews did have a special standing, as God called the Jews to be a light to the nations. The special standing was SERVICE. We also see through out Israel being Gods chosen people Gentiles were SAVED BY FAITH. Saved the same way all are today. FAITH IN THE MESSIAH. Abel, Noah,Abraham , Lot, Isaac , Rahab, Ruth, Job......these are shown in Hebrews 12....the spirits of Just men made Perfect. THEIR perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead. See...they are in heaven just as the Church of the first born is.....see...there is only one CHURCH of the first born.

The difference after the Cross is that they did not have to join Israel or become proselytes . This was the mistake the Judiazers made in Galatia.
---kathr4454 on 9/6/21


Trav:

You complain that I don't post scriptures. I just did, on the other blog. But whenever you do, you always do so as a parting shot at the end of your messages - never to actually prove the point that you're making, but just to bolster your self-righteous judgmentalism of others, demonstrating how much better you are than they are.

Your entire last message said absolutely nothing about either the topic at hand, or about what others were posting. It was entirely about vicious mockery of me, kathr, some unnamed "particular cult" prostrate before some unnamed "democratic priests".

Why don't you grow up, and discuss like an adult, instead of constantly flinging insults like a spoiled child?
---StrongAxe on 9/6/21


Why do you assume I have "many priests"?---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
Over these years I thought I saw where you and Cluny attended the same church. Correct me if I am wrong. I believe he is Eastern Orthodox and they use priests.

Kathrine
If you look carefully at the conversation between us, you will see that you are one who resorts to name calling. And you are one of few bullies here on CN. And the only one I have seen reprimanded for doing so.
---David on 9/6/21


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Pauls gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile. All are counted in unbelief as sinners, and are judged by God without respect of persons whether given the law or not.
Paul says:
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Romans 2:16
During time past, Jesus earthly ministry, and up to his encounter with the Roman, Cornelius, there was a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Peters ministry preaching. The Jews had a special spiritual standing with the Lord. Gentiles did not.
---michael_e on 9/6/21


My church doctrine only has one priest, Jesus Christ, but StrongAxe has many priests.
Hmmm...??
---David on 9/5/21

Ahhh David, it is hummm to her. Maybe a special bazaro world word.
How bizarre, how bizarre.
This particular cult prostrate before democratic priests. Money, abortion deviant platforms. In over twenty post no scripture is even referred to by the student apostle while the matriarch high priestess does tag team on you.
If you notice it is scripture that infuriates the cult spirits.

Dusty here aint it pard, wow got some on my boots.
Giddyup.

Mat 10:13-14-15-16 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
---Trav on 9/5/21


David, the only one here claiming to be superior to man is you. You falsely claim I'm taught by man, but instead should be taught by you. Are you not a man trying to teach others? You are obsessed with me only. This is a sign of a mental illness. If you stalked me in person or at church I would have a restraining order taken out against you. It's your words and behavior and your delusions that I object to.

Many here have different views and understanding of scripture. You however take it beyond just stating your beliefs and stalk, bully, falsely accuse, claiming to be superior to all others. I just don't see Strongaxe doing that.

You never read or addressed the SCRIPTURE I posted. WHY did you choose to bully me instead?
---kathr4453 on 9/5/21


David:

"Cult" in modern Christian usage refers to heterodox splinter groups, accountable to nobody, often with bizarre doctrines, and frequenly requiring members to disassociate themselves from family. This is what I refer to. E.g. Jonestown, Moonies, Branch Davidians. These happen whenever a belief is put on the same level as scripture. Without accountability, errors can multiply.

Why do you assume I have "many priests"? When have I EVER mentioned "many priests"? Why are you totally making stuff up, as Trav frequently does? It would be pointless to criticize my "false doctrine" when you have no clue what it even is.
---StrongAxe on 9/5/21


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Cult
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

StrongAxe
Your doctrine fits the very definition of the word, "Cult". So please, stop using it as a reply, when you don't have anything relevant to add to the conversation.

Kathrine
My church doctrine only has one priest, Jesus Christ, but StrongAxe has many priests. Why don't you start a blog questioning his false doctrine?
Hmmm...??
---David on 9/5/21


I'm sure something happened to David when he had a psychotic break with reality and said he thought he was taken up into paradise like Paul. However God had a reason for Pauls experience. There is no reason that would happen to anyone else. Paul was chosen by God to be an Apostle.

Davids break with reality has given him some sort of delusion of grandeur thinking himself to be God or Jesus or some messenger usurping authority over the Apostles, seeing David did not nor has never acknowledged any of Pauls teaching or even commented on all those verses I asked him to read. GOD TAUGHT ME THAT DAVID, NOT MAN. But then again aren't YOU a man trying to reach? Those kind of comments suggesting you are ABOVE MAN is frightening.
---kathr4453 on 9/5/21


David, you have these tendencies. I can't and won't bow down to you or your teaching. And anyone who is in any church who has a preacher teacher that has exalted themselves above others RUN. GET OUT.

Cult leaders tend to be highly self-absorbed. Some cult leaders gain their sense of self-aggrandizement after having what they believe to be an encounter with a god or deity and it's that visit that inspires them to start their cult. Either way, narcissism is the root of several other behaviors commonly associated with cult leaders. "They seek to control others around them. Because they're driven by their ego, they believe that they deserve to make these demands.
---kathr4454 on 9/5/21


Let's see Paul address David's bazaar doctrine.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.


Notice Paul says in present tense OF WHOM I AM CHIEF. NOT WAS. And Paul never continues on like David does and claims he's achieved sinless perfection. John says " if you say you HAVE NO SIN, not HAD NO SIN.. you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

I believe this to be true.

Acting like the inquisition is sin.

David I really don't care what you believe. That's between you and your God. You should give others that same respect. No one is accountable to you. So why do you keep insisting they are?
---kathr4453 on 9/4/21


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Thesselonians talks about the wrath of God and never mentions the cross or the finished works of Christ.

The finished works of Christ are clearly laid out in Hebrews 10. But understanding the finished works of Christ is not your salvation....BELIEVE AND BE SAVED is your salvation aka your JUSTIFICATION.

It takes a long time before any new Christian understands the finished works of Christ AKA YOUR SANCTIFICATION.

There are not two different ways people are saved...one for Jews and another for Gentiles. It's hogwash.

It's anti Semitic, and anti-Christ. It's CULTISH.
---kathr4454 on 9/4/21


David:

When someone says "If you don't believe what I say, you don't believe the Bible (or you don't believe God)", that person is elevating their own doctrine to be equal to Word of God. As soon as anyone does this, they automatically place themselves above accountability, and above reproach. That is a very dangerous position, and is how all cults start.

Not even the Apostles themselves put themselves in such a position - e.g. Paul rebuked Peter.
---StrongAxe on 9/4/21


After Peter condemned the men of Israel for killing Jesus, who was both Lord and Christ, hey asked what should they do to save themselves from the wrath of God that would surely come as a result of their rejection of Christ?

Peters response did not include trusting the finished work of Christ on the cross. In fact, his response did not include the cross at all!
---michael_e on 9/4/21


I'm just not that into you or your doctrine David.---kathr4453

Translation...She is not into learning what the bible, actually says, she is only into what her teachers have told her what it says.
I can only put the facts in front of her, I can not make her drink. I give her light, and she rewards me with insults.

(Matthew 10:42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
---David on 9/4/21


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Are you hallucinating Again David? If you read the Bible you will understand that the finish works of Christ are that we are the righteousness of Christ we have no righteousness of our own. I suggest you read Romans 3:22 through 26 Romans chapter 5 but especially note verse 17 Romans 8:10 Romans 10:4 Romans 10:6 1st Corinthians 1: 30, Galatians 2:21 Philippians 1:11 Philippians 3:9 2nd Peter 1:1 just for starters. When you finished your assignment then get back with me and tell me what you think that said or what you think it doesn't say.

I'm just not that into you or your doctrine David. I whole heatedly believe in the finished works of Christ. You do not.

Oh yeah and read Hebrews 10:10. Only those SAVED will understand.
---kathr4453 on 9/4/21


(1 Peter 4:18) And, If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Kathrine
Of the three individuals above, being someone who sins, are you not the sinner? However...your doctrine has you believing you are someone not mentioned in this passage,....the righteous sinner.

The reason you and many Christians are still sinners, is because your doctrines teach you that the Law as bad. What does Paul say?


(1 Timothy 1:8-9) But we know that the law is good if a man use it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,.....
---David on 9/4/21


the young word, gentile never used by Christ, prophets or Apostles. In its several meanings it can used of Israel also.
---Trav on 9/3/21
For David Seekers:
Ah but, is there proof, a searcher of truth would ask. Much.
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Judahite first, and also of the Hellen (gentile)
Helle & #772, hel'-lane Strongs concordance :G1671 found 24 times, a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas, by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Judahite:
Rom 2:14 For when the ethnos (Gentiles), which have not the law, ,
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,,,
Reference (Heb 8:10 Heb 10:16).
Contd
---Trav on 9/4/21


David, in case you haven't noticed TRAV DOCTRINE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR DOCTRINE OF SINLESS PERFECTION. Those who believe in the New Covenant don't believe in YOUR doctrine. At least the New Covenant believes in the finished works of Christ. YOUR'S DOESN'T. Trav loves you patting him on the back thinking that will help him on judgement day. That's too funny. But Trav only sees you as a Seeker, not a teacher. And if still a seeker certainly not sinless. He thinks your still seeking for truth. May be spot on there. It's obvious to many here you haven't found it yet.

First you need to stop being a double minded man. You will get NOTHING from God while you are. Hypocrites are not teachers or sinless.
---kathr4453 on 9/4/21


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Gentiles are never another word for Jews or Israel. Gentile in scripture no matter what translation means HEATHANS, BARBARIANS NON JEWS NON ISRAEL Greeks....and so many more words used that do not mean Jews or Israel.

All one has to do is read the verses, not just the word gentile to know it means other than Jew or Israel.

Scripture is not redundant. Why would anyone but Trav and Co think scripture is saying Jews and Jews? God deals with Israel and or Jews exactly the same. He would have no reason to group ....only Trav and Co does that.

Paul said he is both a Jew and Israelite. He never claims to be a Jew and Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/21


Trav
Just throwing it out there for thought.
Trav believes in the Gospel of Christ, but does not believe it is written to include Gentiles. Trav does not undermine the teachings of Jesus Christ.
---David on 9/3/21

Thanks David. Will need that at judgement perhaps. Your namesake is a constant uplifter for me. I do rebuke and I do provoke posting what I post.
I would not ever intentionally discourage if possible a searcher such as yourself. Ever.
Losing patience dusting feet with a couple here though. False doctrines, false teachers are a distraction to truth.
Would clarify my position on the young word, gentile never used by Christ, prophets or Apostles. In its several meanings it can used of Israel also.
---Trav on 9/3/21


And David I am not going to say this again. Stop lying and slandering me. Paul taught John 3:16. Paul also preached Jesus prayer in John 17.... I IN THEM AND THOU IN ME THAT WE MAY BE ONE. THAT THEY MAY SHARE MY GLORY.

This is the mystery revealed to Paul.

What I object to David is not Jesus teachings at all, BUT YOUR interpretation of what Jesus taught. You post a verse and then say that means we are to achieve sinless perfection. That's what YOU THINK IT SAYS not what it actually says. I don't believe your TWIST on scripture. You need to meditate on that before falsely accusing me again. It's SIN to falsely accuse another. So again you have not achieved sinless perfection.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/21


Paul said he wanted all to see the mystery of CHRIST IN YOU. Paul stayed with the Galatians after the judaizers came in TO FORM CHRIST IN THEM AGAIN, not save them again. OSAS. So Paul in Galatians showing Gal 2:20-21 is the workings of CHRIST IN YOU after you are Justified by faith. This is also parallel with Romans 6-8. This is the core of the finished works of Christ. This is what happens to EVERYONE SAVED after the Cross,whether they understand it or not. However to this very day very few teach or understand it or obey it. We are being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord.

Peter in 2 Peter 1 say we BY FAITH IN HIS PRECIOUS PROMISES WE are partakers of His Divine Nature.... THAT WAS NEVER PROMISED TO EARTHLY ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/21


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THE FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST didn't bring in a different way of JUSTIFICATION. TO BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH has never changed from Abel to today. OT looked forward to the cross, we look back. They were JUSTIFIED BY FAITH....ABEL, NOAH, ABRAHAM ETC.

However Sanctification once and for all Hebrews 10, is through the body of Christ, being now IN CHRIST. The Gospel of our initial salvation as we see in Romans 10:9-10 is not based on our sanctification, but our JUSTIFICATION.

I find these false Gospels leave out JUSTIFICATION.

Paul teaches these deeper things to those already saved...like in Galatians. ( forming Christ in you, being crucified with Christ ) etc. these are the byproducts of salvation, not the means of salvation.
---kathr4454 on 9/3/21


Trav:

You wrote: My post of Israel scripture consistently find your doctrines false.

Please show ONE "doctrine" that I talk about that is false, according to your "post of Israel scripture". Be specific.
---StrongAxe on 9/3/21


David, if Trav doctrine omits the salvation of Gentiles that JESUS SAID GO INTO THE WHOLE WORLD TO PREACH, then Trav is disobeying and rejecting Jesus teachings and instructions. Stop being two faced here.

David is a perfect example Michael_e of someone who does not believe the Gospel OR THE FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST. David believes Jesus taught we need to work hard to save ourselves, first becoming sinless so that we can be saved.

What is interesting Michael_e is that not even Peter or the other Apostles in acts taught Davids gospel.

Just like false teachers then and now, they simply do not believe or preach Romans 10:9-10. They do act like they are under Kingdom LAW. .....without a kingdom.
---kathr4453 on 9/3/21


Trav
Just throwing it out there for thought.

Kathrine
You are the one who says Paul teaches a different salvation Gospel to the Gentiles, different from the one Jesus taught. If this is true, do you believe the Lords disciples taught a false doctrine?

Trav believes in the Gospel of Christ, but does not believe it is written to include Gentiles. Trav does not undermine the teachings of Jesus Christ. You do, and for me, that is troubling. That's why I spar with you and StrongAxe and not him.
---David on 9/3/21


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Also, unlike the northern tribes, the tribe of Benjamin stayed with the tribe of Judah,
---StrongAxe on 9/2/21

Consistent?
My post of Israel scripture consistently find your doctrines false.
Hey, you admit seeing the separation of the two houses. See truth isnt that hard at all.
24 yrs ago I was provoked by a GOD sent man, a buyer for a customer of mine. His manner and personality were matter of fact and irritating. I brought up Israel in casual conversation and then he provoked me with scripture. I set out to prove him wrong.
I would publicly wash his feet for provoking me now.
Truth is peace.
If provoking incites you to look and find peace so be it.
If enmity to truth. So be it.
---Trav on 9/3/21


Show the words one needs to preach "THE FINISHED WORKS" and is it any different than John 3:16. Or Romans 10:9-10

Doesn't it say right in the beginning of Acts they were all witnesses of Jesus death and resurrection? You're saying that is a different Gospel than 1 Cor 15:1-4???

Michael_e, please explain how their belief in Jesus is different than yours? Are you saying we are saved by our COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST before we are saved? Please support that by scripture. You can't. We really don't come into that FULL UNDERSTANDING until maybe years after we are saved, just like those saved from Acts 1 on.

Paul at Mars Hill ....Where did he preach THE FINISHED WORKS OF CHRIST?
---kathr4453 on 9/3/21


If Acts 2:38 is the gospel that saves today, then we do not need to understand or preach the finished work of the cross of Christ to save.
Peter did not yet know what was later revealed to the apostle Paul about the cross. With a full Bible, we have no excuse today for not reading further than Acts 2:38.
---michael_e on 9/2/21


Trav:

You wrote: Except the governments.

And you too, apparently, since you seem to make such a big deal about me being Canadian, even though I've lived more than half of my life in the U.S. So much for the command to "welcome the stranger".

Paul ... was not a Judean. He was an Israelite though.

Also, unlike the northern tribes, the tribe of Benjamin stayed with the tribe of Judah, so both of them were part of the Kingdom of Judea. Paul WAS "Judean", which is a political, rather than ethnic designation. If you're going to choke on the gnat of political nationality vs. ethnic nationality, at least please be consistent.
---StrongAxe on 9/2/21


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Place of residence does not give us ethnic origin.---Trav

Irish descendant and born in China, people would call you Irish, not Chinese.
---David on 9/1/21

Except the governments.
And if they called me American?
Paul was a Roman Citizen, a Benjamite, born in Tarsus, close to Galatia. Yet called a jew even today. He was not a Judean. He was an Israelite though.

It can be used the way you suggest but, if you are a Samaritan woman whose father Jacob dug the well, then we know why Christ was speaking to her. She was Lost Sheep that he said he came for.
Context can be another confirming witness confirming a truth.
Samaria where severed Nth House of Israel resided through a long period of Kings. Another.
---Trav on 9/2/21


David, if you read my posts I never said Peter and the other Apostles never preached to Gentiles. I said the opposite. It's hyper-dispensationslists ( re Michael e and Trav who make that claim.

But finally thank you for rebuking Trav on that issue. It's funny you never had an issue with Trav saying this. But only jumped in when YOU THOUGHT I SAID IT.

I have to wonder if you actually read these posts. You seem confused most of the time accusing people of things never said and agreeing with people who disagree with you. Could you explain?
---kathr4453 on 9/2/21


Kathrine
You're overlooking my point.
The Gentiles were being taught Salvation by the Lords disciples, well before Paul started teaching. So if the Gospel meant for the Gentiles, came from Paul, what were the disciples teachings the Gentiles?
---David on 9/2/21


In the OT there are TWO COMINGS OF THE MESSIAH,
1) The one who would die for our sin and rise again for our justification.

2) THE KING OF THE JEWS

Judas betrayed Jesus because Judas wanted THE KING to overthrow Rome then and set up His Reign .

So how is it Judas betrayed Jesus if that's all they understood .. the earthly Kingdom. The other 11 didn't follow Judas thinking.

Zechariah 12-14 show THE KING is coming , but it's a RISEN GLORIFIED KING, who comes AFTER the Great Tribulation. There was no Great Tribulation in Acts in the first place. Matthew 24-25 describe what that time will look like. It didn't start and stop in Acts just because some Jews rejected the Gospel. That's ridiculous.
---kathr4454 on 9/1/21


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Place of residence does not give us ethnic origin.---Trav

True, but when someone is called a Samaritan or an Ethiopian, that shows ethnic descendant. For example, if you were of an Irish descendant and born in China, people would call you Irish, not Chinese.
---David on 9/1/21


And THE CROSS WAS PREACHED IN THE OT.


Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?.".32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 9/1/21


Naming Jesus of Nazareth as Israels Christ was the purpose of the Lords ministry to Israel. It was on this issue that Jesus evaluated how his ministry was being received.

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? Matthew 16:13
All of this was preached before the event of the cross.
---michael_e on 8/31/21


John the Baptist said BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. Notice John didn't say "take away the sin of Israel".

To say Paul's Gospel excluded the Blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin is ludacris. From Abel's sacrifice that pointed to Jesus sacrifice of Himself is the very same as we are saved today. Genesis 3:15 before there was an Israel prophecied the Messiah where those from Adam and Eve to today have put our FAITH IN FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

Does Hyper Dispensationalists preach a BLOODLESS CROSS? IT SOUNDS LIKE IT. HERESY BEYOND WORDS.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/21


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For those who speak before reading scripture. This shows Jesus telling Peter NO NOT NOW ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN. Hyper-Dis say Peter OR RATHER THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH PETER preached it anyway and defied what Jesus just said...NO NOT NOW. It makes the trinity look like the 3 Stooges.

When the Kingdom is to be restored TO ISRAEL, will be AFTER the Church is complete....God began the Church in Acts 2 and is still going on to this day...TO BOTH JEW AND GENTILE .
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/21


David, it's clear you are not following the conversation. You are confused and maybe need to sit this one out. Or maybe just listen and ask and not jump to false accusations.

I never said what you just said.
And I'm not going to try to explain it to you.

If you didn't understand my post you simply don't understand what ULTRA DISPENSATIONALISM IS. Or maybe now you are now an ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISTS. Go ask Trav to explain to you. TRAV will say OUR definition of Gentiles( non Jew or Israel) were never offered salvation. REMEMBER... So NOW you want to jump in and defend gentile salvation? ... That is so funny.

But still THAT IS NOT THE SUBJECT MATTER.
---kathr4453 on 8/31/21


To those who are paying attention, The Kingdom RESTORING THE EARTHLY KINGDOM TO ISRAEL...Acts 1-6-7 EXCLUDED GENTILES. Peter never preached that... michael_e says he did.

If Peter DID then Ezekiel 36 would be totally fulfilled, Israel would be back in their land 2000 years ago, and Jesus as KING would have ruled ON EARTH for 1000 years at that time.

When The Father does decide when to do this it will not depend on Israel's cooperation. God is just going to do it PERIOD.
---kathr4454 on 8/31/21


Saying Peter filled with the Holy Spirit defy Jesus is rediculous.
---kathr4453


You seem to be confused, I was quoting the Bible, AKA, the facts. And the Bible clearly shows Peter was teaching the Gentiles, well before Paul started teaching. And to dispute this fact, you say, Peter defied Jesus by teaching the gentiles, the gospel, that Jesus taught to him? Unbelievable
---David on 8/31/21


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The Samaritans were not men of Israel.
Was Peter wrong...or are all of you?
---David on 8/30/21

Place of residence does not give us ethnic origin. The Nth House of Israel was primarily in Samaria. Look in 1-2Kings.
2Ki 10:36And the time that Jehu reigned over Israel in Samaria ///
Mic 1:5For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?
Joh 4:9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:12Art thou greater than our father Jacob,///
---Trav on 8/31/21


All that was preached before the cross, was preached without the disciples understanding the cross (Matt 16:21-23). The cross was not being preached as the means of salvation unto all. What was preached was the name of Jesus Christ.
The new thing in Peters message at Pentecost was the presence of the promised Holy Ghost.
---michael_e on 8/31/21


Another glaring problem with hyper- dispensationalism is trying to reconcile Ezekiel 36....The New Covenant to Israel restoring the Kingdom to Israel to Acts. If you see in Ezekiel 36, God is not depending on Israel to do anything. God is going to do it all.....it says I WILL, I WILL I WILL and .never once says I WILL IF YOU WILL.

But the HD say that Peter did preach the Kingdom and Israel rejected it, so then God decided to close that door and open another giving Paul ANOTHER GOSPEL. Well that makes God and Ezekiel 36 prophecy a lie. And it says Peter disobeyed Jesus in Acts 1:6-7 and preached the Kingdom restored to Israel anyway. Saying Peter filled with the Holy Spirit defy Jesus is rediculous.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/21


Peter was the first to use the words THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Those are WORDS THE BOC USES.

David, ULTRA Dispensationalists believe there were two entirely different CHURCHES in Acts. One consisting of Jew and Gentiles before Paul where Gentiles were then part of the Israel Church REQUIRING CIRCUMCISION ( as we see no such animal) and the Church AFTER PAULS REVELATIONS of Gentiles ONLY, or so that is what some teach. Just more anti_semitic doctrine to be careful of.

The CHURCH AGE BEGAN THE DAY IF PENTECOST. ACTS 1:6-7 clearly state the Kingdom restored to Israel did not begin then. Only the Father knows when that will begin. It's AFTER THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES COME IN Romans 9 and 11.
---kathr4453 on 8/30/21


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Then Simon answered and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. And they, when they had testified and preached the Word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem and preached the Gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Acts 8:24-25)


The Samaritans were not men of Israel.
So Why did Simon preach the gospel of Christ to Non Jews? Wasn't he aware, the Gospel was meant for Israel?

Why did Simon give the teachings of Christ to the gentiles? Didn't he know Jesus was going to give, a new revised salvation message to Paul, which was to be taught to the Gentiles? And why would he preach salvation to the Ethiopian?

Was Peter wrong...or are all of you?
---David on 8/30/21


John's Baptism was preached BEFORE JESUS MINISTRY make the way straight for the Lord. That was not what Peter preached in Acts 2:38.

If Peter preached a different Gospel sanctioned by God, Paul was out of line rebuking him in Galatians. Also as we see the Judiazers who came with Peter in Galatians insisted the Gentiles be circumcised. YET, no such requirement is seen from Acts 2 to mid Acts or Acts 28 requiring Gentiles to be circumcised. Not even Cornelius was instructed to be circumcised.

The Judiazers preached an accursed gospel....just as we see many today preach an accursed Gospel.

Romans 1, 2Timothy, 1,2 Thess, Titus, 2 Cor ...never use the word CROSS, so are those epistles not addressed to the BOC either?
---kathr4453 on 8/29/21


Acts 19:1 Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and finding certain disciples,2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus..

Is Acts 2:38 John's Baptism or Jesus? And was Paul preaching two entirely different Gospels by Acts 19 going to Ephesis?
---kathr4453 on 8/29/21


Michael_e, it's only fair you disclose whether you're A MID ACTS DISPENSATIONALISTS aka The Grace Movement, or A HYPER or ULTRA Dispensationalist, meaning the church began in Acts 28, putting many of Pauls epistles at odds as well. Paul wrote many of his epistles through out Acts, not all after Acts 28.

People need to know exactly what this discussion is about, and to research these doctrines first before intelligently discussing and understand where you are coming from.

God revealed the Gospel according to the MYSTERY to Paul. Colossians 1:24-27. Christ in you the hope of glory. Totally different than Jesus death and resurrection....which was never a mystery. Matthew Mark Luke THE OT all tell...so it was no secret.
---kathr4454 on 8/29/21


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Peter did not preach the cross for salvation, he called them all to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
The same message of John the Baptist years earlier before the cross of Christ.( Mark 1:4)
---michael_e on 8/27/21


Explain Acts 2:38
---michael_e on 8/26/21

I have no single answer but, seen several links. Keeping in mind Paul refers to the OT over 269 times. The answer begins there.
Who is being spoke too in Acts 2. Why.
Promise is stated. Foes is stated. Such as should be saved, is stated.
Who was all that are afar off? Jer 30:10, 31:10, 46:27.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,.
Act 2:39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
eart,
Act 2:47. Lord added to the assembly daily such as should be saved.
---Trav on 8/27/21


After Peter condemned the men of Israel for killing Jesus, who was both Lord and Christ, many in the crowd sought deliverance from their actions. What should they do to save themselves from the wrath of God that would surely come as a result of their rejection of Christ?

Peters response did not include trusting the finished work of Christ on the cross. In fact, his response did not include the cross at all!
---michael_e on 8/28/21


Acts 2:38 >

"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" (Acts 2:38)

This is God's word . . . which means what God knows He means. So, don't throw this scripture out because of how ones might misrepresent it.
---Bill on 8/28/21


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The verses posted in Acts is testifying to Jesus death and resurrection WHICH IS THE GOSPEL PAUL PREACHED. AKA THE PREACHING OF THE CROSS Romans 10:9-10

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, (doesn't say according to Paul. ) 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: IT DOESNT SAY ACCORDING TO PAULS REVELATIONS.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/21


Building ANY theology on a single verse is dangerous. Many cults go off the rails because they do this - i.e. ignoring the big picture for a doctrine fished out of a single verse.

There's an parable about a group of blind men who encounter an elephant. Each felt a different part of it. The trunk felt like a snake. The ear, like a fan. The leg, like a tree. The side, like a wall. The tusk, like a spear. Each one is convinced of his experience, and thinks the others are lying. But we, seeing the whole elephant, know it is none of these.

It's the same with the Word of God. You can't just look at one piece. You have to look at all of it. This is why we have the Word of God, and not the Pamphlet of God.
---StrongAxe on 8/27/21


See Acts 2:24,32,3:15,26,4:10,5:30,10:40,13:23,30,33-37 ... Is this with Acts 2:38? Paul is preaching this same Gospel in Galatians to Gentiles:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

John's Baptism did not accompany the Holy Spirit. Only JESUS BAPTISM DOES.

Those at Pentecost preached the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus said when His work was finished here He would go to the Father and the Father would SEND the Holy Spirit. John 14:25-31. What's left?
---kathr4453 on 8/27/21


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