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Why Does God Punish Us

Why did God make man knowing they would sin and then punish them eternally for sins he knew they would commit. Why make something broken you knew would break and then blame the broken thing for being broken and for the rest of eternity pour out your wrath on it for its brokenness that you allowed?

Moderator: Jesus paid the price for our sin through the Blood Atonement of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection at the Cross. God has given us the choice. Chose right.

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Many people are not taught the power over sin we are given through confession. Not only is the sin forgiven, buy the blood of Jesus Christ washes away that sin. That washing away is called...The Remission of Sin.
This remission is needed so the followers of Jesus Christ remain the light.

(Matthew 26:28)....for this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
---David on 11/18/21


David says if we can't SEE "HIS PEARLS" , then we are blind and wicked. Our pearls are THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT, LOVE being the first mentioned. God is LOVE. David says he's sinless, equal to God but has no love except for those who love him. But that's not GOD.

And 1 Corinthians 13 .... You don't even have to say you are sinless and God to obey and manifest LOVE God's way of love.

Temper tantrums, insults, judging another's conscience when you are rebuked is a true sign of AN UNHEALED HEART. Those who choose to hurt others are still hurt and not healed. Their SINFUL SELF gets in the way wanting revenge. That's SIN. That's the sin Paul talks about in Romans 7 that will always live in our earthly members.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/21


The HEART of man I believe consists of our WILL, INTELLECT, EMOTIONS. My belief is, those IN CHRIST,

1) surrender our will to the will of God,

2) Have the mind of Christ who is made into us the wisdom and knowledge of Him,

3) and our emotions now being controlled by the Holy Spirit if we obey Romans 6-8 resulting in Galatians 2:30-21 with Galatians 5:22-25 where one first HAS CRUCIFIED THE FLESH, that house our sinful emotions you display here daily.

You don't have a healed heart David. You don't even know what a truly healed heart consists of and have no business in diagnosing another's heart. Only GOD CAN SEE THE HEART OF MAN.

When you stop twisting another's beliefs then you'll start the healing process.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/21


David, you seem to be saying you have a healed heart. What I find inconsistent with your testimony here is one who makes false statements about others you've never met, and is not the fruit of one with a healed heart.

Yes Jesus can heal our lives, but that should not display a haughty and arrogant prideful disposition. A truly healed heart doesn't slander another.

A healed heart demonstrates 1 Corinthians 13.

I pray you will grow up into that healing one day and know how to communicate with others, even those who don't agree with you. Love your enemies is also just as important a teaching from Jesus as everything He said. You can't pick and choose what to obey and then expect others to take you seriously.
---Samuel on 11/17/21


David, who LIED and said we don't confess our sin daily? YOU DID. MAYBE I TOO HAVE ACHIEVED SINLESS PERFECTION LIKE YOU AND DONT HAVE TO ANYMORE. HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Those who claim sinlessness where they don't have to confess sin daily are those who have 1) seared their own conscience, 2) have no clue what sanctification is, 3) actually believe they are equal to God, which is blasphemy, 4) do not believe in the DEITY OF CHRIST. 5) believe you have to EARN YOUR SALVATION, 6) and don't believe we are given A NEW HEART WHEN WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

That's just the beginning of issues I have with your doctrine David.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/21




I think David's verse is addressed to those who actually have pearls. I just don't see he has any.---kathr4453

(Matthew 13:15)
For this peoples heart has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Kathrine
The healing of the heart, that's what the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is all about...The Healing of the Heart. Until you, and those like you, who don't believe in confession of sin, begin to confess your sins daily, you will all remain blind. And your hearts will not be changed.
---David on 11/17/21


EPHESIANS 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, we see some don't believe or obey.

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

I don't see anyone here posting hate and insults obeying Ephesians 6:10-18.

Not all men have FAITH and it appears some here have exhibited this to be true. If you don't have FAITH, you have nothing. Just a bunch of NOISE. CLANG CLANG DONG CLANG. Rolling your fights into others places. Do you also carry your fighting into others homes too? So rude. So classless.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/21


Trav:

The way accusations work is 1) YOU make a specific accusation, and 2) YOU prove it with evidence and witnesses. This standard of justice is literally in the Bible. You don't demand the accused admit to vague insinuendos [sic].


jerry6593:

I am NOT a Communist. Biden is NOT a Communist. If you think that, you have absolutely no idea of what Communism is. All it is to you is just a nebulous pejorative you throw at people you disagree with, without really undersanding it or them.

"Communism is bad. X is bad. Therefore, X is Communist." That is a logical fallacy of the same kind as "Apples are fruit. Oranges are fruit. Therefore, apples are oranges."
---StrongAxe on 11/16/21


Trav:
BLM exists because police have been killing people for "horrible crimes" .
---StrongAxe on 11/14/21

False witness? A question asking you to admit what kind of labeled leftist you are?
You embrace all you defend. You are a package kinda guy.
You admit you are not American, and get very agitated supporting defending left positions of the day on a Christian blog site.
Your own witness speaks. Darkness not light.
Job 5:13
Job 5:14 They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night.
---Trav on 11/16/21


ax: "I am neither BLM, Antifa, Chinese, nor communist."

OK, you're not Chinese. But you are indeed a Communist, even though you refuse to believe it. There's one simple test: If you love Biden and hate Trump, you ARE a Communist!


Let's Go Brandon!


---jerry6593 on 11/16/21




I think David's verse is addressed to those who actually have pearls. I just don't see he has any. But interestingly Jesus didn't say. HERE, WHEN YOU FEEL PERSECUTED, take this verse and assault your enemies with.

But somehow we have those who actually think throwing hate at others and hiding behind a verse that was never meant to use as a weapon to assault others will do the trick.. It actually shows one exposed without any ARMOUR. Ephesians 6:10-18.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/21


Proverbs 29:23
A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
---Beena on 11/15/21


Do not give dogs what is sacred, do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
(Matthew 7:6)


If I'm in error, this is the only error I have made.
---David on 11/15/21


Trav:

I am neither BLM, Antifa, Chinese, nor communist. Your unfounded accusations reveal your heart. You conveniently ignore "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".

BLM exists because police have been killing people for "horrible crimes" like "going to a convenience store", "sitting on your own front porch", "sleeping in your own bed", "playing video games in your own living room", and "lawfully showing your open carry permit to an officer" (while black) - and getting away with it with no consequences.

Jesus said "love your enemies" (another inconvenient verse for you), so if you despise anyone, that shows whom YOU serve.
---StrongAxe on 11/14/21


Police are despised because they kill innocents without accountability. .

Your partisan myopia is staggering.
---StrongAxe on 11/11/21

Your partisan blindness causes you to stagger and stumble.
But you reveal yourself more and more. Which are you BLM? Antifa? Chinese commie?
Be specific. Quit hiding. Tell us who you really serve.

Police are only despised by your small outlaw groups. Which shines more light on ya.

I despise American Imposters.
---Trav on 11/14/21


No one can obey Romans 2:6-7 if they don't have a conscience HAS BEEN MY ARGUMENT HERE WITH YOU FROM THE BEGINNING, so why are you now avoiding the questions asked to you?. Where's the scripture God withheld a conscience from Israel? You can't find it and just change gears.

Jesus "IS" LORD. And no one can call Jesus LORD except by the Holy Spirit. But He's even MORE THAN THAT.... HE IS OUR WHOLE LIFE. CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.So David, if Jesus isn't your whole life... Galatians 2:20-21 I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST, "NO LONGER I BUT CHRIST IN ME, Then He's not "your"LORD except in word only.

David, You say a lot, throw tantrums a lot but then argue against the very things you say.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/21


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David, I can say with all certainty anyone who claims to be sinless is the one who is not confessing sin, and would be one without conscience. Until we grow up into Christ into the fullness and stature of Christ, not a single one here on earth who is a Christian is without sin. And we won't reach that stage of perfection until we are glorified together with Christ. No one is in a glorified state on earth.

Your false beliefs David have led you to have no conscience, as displayed here accusing others and slandering those you don't know personally.

If you had a conscience you would repent and stop this attack on others.

I forgive you.

You need to work out your own salvation and let others work out theirs.
---Samuel on 11/14/21


David, if you are not going to be an example of doing what the Lord commands us to do, then please sit down and be quiet.

You have continually slandered others here without proof of your accusations. I don't see The Lord Jesus giving you permission to stone anyone here.

Where does the Lord Jesus Christ say" and those who have attained sinlessness will I authorize to be your judge, jury and executioner?

Your gospel is not my gospel David. Yours is made up, a sort of collage of scripture without a foundation. The foundation is Jesus death and resurrection you leave out.

We are not saved by our conscience. We are saved by Grace through faith. And God has given every man a measure of faith.
---Beena on 11/14/21


Have you ever noticed, when we are told what we must do to be saved, it's always...Believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ? Not just Jesus Christ, but believe in The Lord, Jesus Christ.
Why?
It's because of what Jesus said....
Luke 6:46) "And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Actions are louder than words folks, according to both Jesus and Paul. In other words, make Jesus Lord by doing what he commands you to do, and you will be saved.
(Romans 2:6-7) God who will render to every man according to his deeds: To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
---David on 11/14/21


David, please show scripture showing men under the Law of Moses did not have a conscience. They did have FAITH we know, as we see in Hebrews 11. And for one to have FAITH one had to have a conscience. So your NONSENSE HERE HAS AGAIN BEEN EXPOSED.

David anyone who sins like you do here daily and are not sorry for your sin is an example of one without a conscience. You are the perfect example of one who has seared his own conscience with a hot iron.

Seeing you also are not God as you seem to think you are under your delusions of Grandeur, your OPINION concerning anyone or your beliefs mean ZERO ZILCH here. You have Trav as your sidekick. Be happy with that.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/21


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The scripture posted here by others show man has a conscience David had chosen to ignore and then slander for a smoke screen to hide behind. This has been a pattern with David since I started reading contributions here. David has the most unteachable spirit I have ever witnessed in my lifetime and is not the Holy Spirit within.

Romans 1 is describing a time before the Law of Moses yet totally destroy David's teaching in Romans 2.

So where is this scripture God decided to withhold a conscience from the Jews? Why would anyone given the Law of Moses not be convicted of sin? Paul tells us that was the purpose of the Law.

Condemning others is sin David. Something you are blinded to. Why is that?
---Samuel on 11/13/21


NOW David believes in total depravity, HOWEVER says you have to prove to God YOU ARE WORTHY of salvation---kathr4453

You're leaving out one major piece of information...and I believe it's Intentional. I said under the Law of Moses,...they did not have a conscience before God.

Now I will admit, I do not believe you, StrongAxe or Samuel possess a conscience before God. I can say this in all certainty, because you don't confess your sins.

And if you do not confess your sin, they are not forgiven....
But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.(Isaiah 59:2)

Confess your sins before God...and you will have that conscience.
---David on 11/13/21


That each person will suffer for their sins then cease to exist.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/13/21

Give the verse that teaches this?
---Ruben on 11/13/21


NOW David believes in total depravity, HOWEVER says you have to prove to God YOU ARE WORTHY of salvation---kathr4453

You're leaving out one major piece of information...and I believe it's Intentional. I said under the Law of Moses,...they did not have a conscience before God.

Now I will admit, I do not believe you, StrongAxe or Samuel possess a conscience before God. I can say this in all certainty, because you don't confess your sins.

And if you do not confess your sin, they are not forgiven....
But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.(Isaiah 59:2)

Confess your sins before God...and you will have that conscience.
---David on 11/13/21


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I and many others do not agree with the teaching of eternal torment. We believe this verse is true. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This teaching is called Conditionalism. That each person will suffer for their sins then cease to exist.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/13/21


WARNING:

1) David does not believe in the deity of Christ.

2 )NOW David believes in total depravity, HOWEVER says you have to prove to God YOU ARE WORTHY of salvation by your own self effort, all the while being depraved. Then He teaches that God looks at those who's LOVE for God while depraved measure some standard and then WALLA, you might get lucky enough for God to pick you and give you the Holy Spirit so that you can achieve sinless perfection..AND AFTER ACHIEVING SINLESS PERFECTION THEN YOU ARE SAVED.

I said that sounded like Hinduism and Davis said so what, then Christianity is like Hinduism .

So before jumping in David's wagon like Trav has done, know this doctrine will give you a ride to HELL.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/21


Trav
I know, I don't post for them. I post for those whom God may lead to CN. For those who see the conflict in the Main Stream Doctrines. Those which tell someone, What they must do to be saved, and then later on, teach them the so called meat of those doctrines, You can not save yourself by what you do.

Can you imagine if they led off with the latter teaching..their so called meat?
Someone would come to them and say, "What must I do to be saved?" And they would respond, "Why nothing, for you can not save yourself, by what you do."

Why don't they teach it that way?
If there is nothing they can do to be saved, the recipient of this information, would just walk away.
---David on 11/13/21


Now if God, had written the Law on the hearts of those who were under the Law of Moses, God would not have needed to make this change, would he?
---David on 11/12/21

People aren't saved because God writes the Law on their heart. SOMETHING "TODAY" has to happen BEFORE. ANSWER: FAITH IN THE FINISHED WORKS OF JESUS CHRIST.

The blood of bulls and goats under THE LAW, didn't come with the Holy Spirit.

ITS FAITH IN JESUS DEATH AND RESURRECTION that one is saved AND THEN Given the Holy Spirit...AFTER YOU BELIEVE....EPHESIAN's 1:13.

The Holy Spirit was given BECAUSE OF JESUS DEATH AND RESURRECTION, NOT BEFORE. JOHN 14:16

It's David who doesn't believe in Matt, Mark, Luke and John.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/21


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So the real question is... How did this blog question change from " why does God punish us " to "total depravity" ?

And I see fools rushing in to defend... TOTAL DEPRAVITY?

As I originally answered Joseph, FREE WILL is why God punishes us.

Only those rushing in without reading the thread first defending WHAT? David's rendition of TOTAL DEPRAVITY? Too funny.

Well, here a secret for David. Many many many Christians do not believe in total depravity. And selecting only certain scripture , but not all to try to prove your belief just doesn't cut it with those ON STRONG MEAT.

David, just accept the fact not everyone agrees with your doctrine.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/21


God wrote the Law on our hearts!!.

Now if God, had written the Law on the hearts of those who were under the Law of Moses, God would not have needed to make this change, would he?
---David on 11/12/21

Your dealing with specific scripture, and running into non specific problems.
Not everyone can eat the meat. They were never meant to.

Mat 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mar 4:11 he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
---Trav on 11/12/21


David, Romans 2 teach that those without the law had the law written in their hearts , accusing or excusing one another. The law was added so sin would abound Romans 5.

The Law didn't fail. No one was saved by the Law and it was to show man his sin. It was used as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

You are using verses where God gave THEM UP. Again, Paul never says God gave US UP, AS IN ALL HUMANITY.

The only one I see quibbling here is you.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/21


David, kathr4453 posted this early on you ignored. You see, below man has always had a conscience. If we didn't , there would have been nothing to purge . Now please read carefully. It does not say our conscience was dead. Correct? It says dead works. correct?

I would suggest doing a word study on all scripture that have to do with our conscience. If God didn't give man a conscience, then God cannot judge man by his conscience. And you should not be judging anyone either.


Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
---Samuel on 11/12/21


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David:

The Law God writes in hearts is NOT the Law of Moses.

It includes "love God and your neighbor", implying most of the Ten Commandments, but not "don't eat unclean animals" (explicitly done away with), "put anyone who violates the sabbath to death", "manslaughter victims' families can kill the killer unless they go to a city of refuge", a childless man's widow must marry his brother, and "go to Jerusalem every year for the Passover, and slaughter a lamb".

Nobody follows "the prophet who speaks falsehood in the name of the Lord must be stoned to death", as this happens frequently, especially today, yet they usually get away with it without consequences.
---StrongAxe on 11/12/21


Kathrine
Lets not quibble over clearly written and easily understood passages in the Bible. This is as simple as I can make it, but please let me know if you don't understand it, for it would make an interesting conversation.

In (Hebrews 8:8-10), it says the Law of Moses failed, so God made a change in the Law.
What was that change?
God wrote the Law on our hearts!!

He didn't get rid of the Law as many have been taught...he simply put it into our conscience, by writing it on our hearts.

Now if God, had written the Law on the hearts of those who were under the Law of Moses, God would not have needed to make this change, would he?
---David on 11/12/21


David, bearing false witness of others is one of the most dispicable sins in scripture. Why you continually do this is a giveaway here that you think too highly of yourself, and can only look good by making another look bad. I have no respect for such people. Please stop.

But let's establish some truth here. Tell me if you are a Sabbath Keeper? Do you obey this Old Covenant Law or do you believe it is included in the New Covenant? Do you condemn those who do not keep the Sabbath laws?

Let's beging here and build up from there. Would you accept this challenge?
---Samuel on 11/12/21


Romans 1 Romans 2 ... Is not the real issue here. The issue was David claiming men were without a conscience in Romans 1 but we see they have one in Romans 2-11.

That's strong meat.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/21


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David, I never stated your verse in Romans 1 was Romans 2.---Samuel

Samuel
You made the same mistake Kathrine did, arguing against (Romans 2) when I referenced the compelling evidence Paul gave in (Romans 1). Hardly a coincidence, I think.

I realize Paul is a difficult read for many people, and I earnestly tried to show evidence you might understand, but you rejected it.

Here is a thought for both you and Kathrine. Kathrine doesn't believe the first four books of the New Testament, what many call the Gospel of Christ, is the foundation for Pauls teachings. If that is the case with you too, what is the Milk, Paul mentions In (1 Corinthians 3:2)?

I say it's the Gospel of Christ...what do you say?
---David on 11/10/21


David, I never stated your verse in Romans 1 was Romans 2. I said you are always using Romans 2 as your teaching point. As a matter of fact Romans 2:6-7. You went backward.

David, also Romans 2:4 again show men have a conscience. Romans 2:4 lead into your "go to" verses 6-7.

You're not teaching strong meat David. And those were Paul's words, not words we can apply to ourselves. You are not an Apostle. Not understanding that in itself shows you are still on milk.
---Samuel on 11/10/21


(Romans 1:24-32)---David on 11/9/21

David, again confusing. You are now saying God interfered with mans conscience and you use Romans 2 as your teaching point? ---Samuel

David, to understand Romans 2 please start in Chapter 1. That is not what Romans 2 is teaching at all. ---kathr4453

There's times David your teaching is like that of a 3rd grader.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/21


Samuel & Kathrine
I referenced (Romans 1), and you were both reading (Romans 2), maybe thats why you are confused. Perhaps my teachings for a 3rd grader are too high for you?
( 1 Corinthians 3:2) I have fed you with milk and not with meat, for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able..
---David on 11/10/21


Man was not created depraved. After Adam and Eve sinned, it appears their CONSCIENCE of knowing both good and evil was awakened within JUST AS SCRIPTURE TEACHES. That's why the hid from God. So they had a conscience after sin.

I believe Romans 1 , if read carefully is showing a time from Adam to the great flood. It must have been a magnificent time that just looking around you saw God in every part of creation. And scripture says they were WITHOUT EXCUSE. We do see God did give them up, ...BUT NOTICE THE WORD "THEM". It's important to pay attention to detail. Paul never says God gave US UP. God gave "THEM UP." ( Good catch Samuel) THEM, not US. The THEM would be those before the flood. It makes sense.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/21


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Now we see after Romans 1 men still do have a conscience.

Romans 2: 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..
---kathr4453 on 11/9/21


David, again confusing. You are now saying God interfered with mans conscience and you use Romans 2 as your teaching point? I don't see what you seem to be seeing. Man before the flood, seared their own conscience where God gave THEM OVER. Not only so, but brought in Gods wrath upon all but 8 souls.

A seared conscience is not inherited or passed down. But that seems to be what you believe. Are you Calvinist? I'm not, so we'll just have to disagree on that point. I don't know any Calvinist's who believe as you do in other areas.

I'm curious what denomination you belong to. Total depravity believes in no free will. The two thoughts can't survive without the other.
---Samuel on 11/9/21


David, to understand Romans 2 please start in Chapter 1.

I believe scripture says man not God seared their own conscience. So you are saying all humanity has a seared conscience? Or that was God's punishment to sear man's conscience?

That is not what Romans 2 is teaching at all.

Where do you come up with your nonsense.

No scripture says all men before the Law had no conscience and no man under the Law was sorry for sin.

Abraham, Lot, Sarah and their families and so many before the Law had a conscience AND HAD FAITH. Even Nineveh , not under any LAW OF MOSES repented showing sorrow for sin.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/21


Are you saying the law interfered with man's conscience?...Samuel

Actually it was God, when Man failed to keep Gods Law.
(Romans 1:24-32)Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men....

I don't see a conscience..Do You?
---David on 11/9/21


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Why would God use those before the New Covenant as examples of those in the New Covenant? HE DIDN'T.

Well maybe those examples have to do with FAITH, that has been around since Adam and Eve, Abel, Noah etc.

You see FAITH is the point here, not the new Covenant or the Law.

Men have had FAITH before the Law, during the law and after the Law.

And Paul teaches the Law itself is not of FAITH. The bible never teaches FAITH was put away when the Law came in.

So men like Enoch Abel Noah where Hebrews 11 teaches us ARE MEN OF FAITH.


But not all men HAVE FAITH. And that's the heart of the problem.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/21


David, again you are playing God assuming people didn't grieve AKA be sorry for their sin because they were under the Law of Moses.

You have no scripture to back that up. And that's NOT what Hebrews 10:1-4 says in the first place.

There's times David your teaching is like that of a 3rd grader. I really don't know who your audience is, but I don't think many 3rd graders are here online.

YOUR...."Ok now let's see what Grace means bla bla bla" is not necessary. Those saved by grace through faith don't need you to explain it. Especially one who does not believe in GRACE the way scripture teaches GRACE. It's NOT OF WORKS DAVID. It's a FREE GIFT. Don't confuse GRACE with FAITH. They are not the same thing.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/21


David no one is leaving this out. Did you actually read and understand the scriptures I posted? If you had, you would see I left nothing out.

You make up scripture never said. Please show scripture that says I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU SO THAT YOU WILL GRIEVE WHEN YOU SIN, BECAUSE WITHOUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO GRIEVE FOR YOUR SIN.

It's not there David. You make so many statements that simply are not in scripture and then throw a tantrum when confronted with this extra biblical dogma. Then you cry that your being picked on.

If you make stuff up, YES I WILL PICK IT APART.
---kath4453 on 11/8/21


David I'm confused by your comment here. Are you saying the law interfered with man's conscience? You say those before the Law did grieve over sin, but those after the law did not? How is that possible?

I believe those who's faith was in God regardless of whether they were under the Law or not, just as today not being under the Law, feel a godly sorrow when we sin.

Those before the Law we're not under the New Covenant either so your point is confusing.

Would you clarify what you mean?
---Samuel on 11/8/21


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The animal sacrifice required under the Law of Moses for the forgiveness of sin, did not cause the sinner to grieve, grieve when they sinned against God. David/////
David, anyone can read what you said.
--kathr4453



Kathrine
Yes and anyone can read that I was referring to those under the Law of Moses. The relationship God had with men like Noah, David, Abraham, and Isaac, came many years before the Law of Moses. These men would grieve if they sinned. Why??
Because they loved God!!!

This is why they are used as examples in the New Testament. The changing of the heart is the defining point of the New Covenant. Your doctrine and many like it, leave this out.
---David on 11/8/21


And if they do not get caught in their sin, they will probably feel no guilt at all. This is true of both the atheist and the Christian . David/////

Who gave you the right to answer for Christians? If you believe you are sinless , then I would say you are the one feeling no guilt for sin, and have seared your own conscience by believing such nonsense. A CHRISTIAN has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin, especially those who don't obey 1 Corinthians 13. You are always accusing others without proof or 2-3 witnesses. It's called SLANDER. And that you have never apologized for it shows YOU are the one claiming to be a Christian who feels no guilt and have demonstrated your guiltless morality here daily.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/21


David, Hebrews 8 ,10 Trav posted hinges on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The whole of the New Covenant is....the BLOOD OF THE COVENANT. So if YOU have a problem UNDERSTANDING this point, I will be more than happy to explain it to you. I also wholeheartedly agree with the Moderators answer . Did you miss that? My scriptures completely compliment and agree with the Moderator.

To grieve means to be sorry...correct?

So again, your pride David has gotten in the way. All you had to say is....OH, I didn't mean it that way. Unless you did. As I said King David grieved AKA sorry for his sin. And unless you think you are God, you have no idea how many before Jesus death and resurrection grieved over their sin.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/21


(Hebrews 10: 1-4) tells us.
Basically it says, The animal sacrifice required under the Law of Moses for the forgiveness of sin, did not cause the sinner to grieve, grieve when they sinned against God. David/////

David, anyone can read what you said.

To grieve for ones sin has to do with ones conscience David. Blood of any kind doesn't cause one to grieve.

And again I GAVE SCRIPTURE ABOUT OUR GODLY CONSCIENCE.
Hebrews 9:14
Hebrews 10:29
1 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:6
1 John 5:8

All testify to Hebrews 9:14.

Do you have an issue with the Blood of Jesus David?

And no scripture says GODLY CONSCIENCE. Maybe you are meaning GODLY SORROW?
---kathr4453 on 11/7/21


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The problem I had with your original post David was your saying no one before Jesus was sorry for sin. No scripture says that.---kathr4453

Nor did I!
Kathrine, People who read this can see your dodging the question by running me down. It's important information you should know. If you can't answer the question, just ask, and I will give you the answer.

But Trav was kind enough to give you the answer,...and he used biblical verses, which are teachings, written by teachers, which don't need an interpreter. People who seek out a different interpretation, than the ones clearly written in the bible, do so, when the teachings don't say what they want them to say.
---David on 11/7/21


Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Here is how one gets a GODLY CONSCIENCE.

The problem I had with your original post David was your saying no one before Jesus was sorry for sin. No scripture says that.
---kathr4453 on 11/6/21


David, Joseph:

Some prefer to quote men.

2Co 11:14 no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Scripture explains it better.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16***saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

Rom 2:14 For when the ethnos,:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
---Trav on 11/6/21


(Hebrews 10: 1-4) tells us.
Basically it says, The animal sacrifice required under the Law of Moses for the forgiveness of sin, did not cause the sinner to grieve, grieve when they sinned against God. David/////

Basically David, that is not what Hebrews 10:1-4 say at all. You just made this up out of the air. But for what reason, who knows. Seeing the Blood of Jesus only applies to those SAVED, it says our sin is forgiven, not just covered year after year. Now Hebrews elsewhere says the Blood of Jesus has PURGED OUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD. Dead works would be trying to earn your way to heaven. What you teach. So it would appear yours may not have been purged yet from those dead works.
---kathr4453 on 11/6/21


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StrongAxe & Kathrine
It's appears to me, you may not know what the bible means by a Godly Conscience. Please explain the difference between the conscience, which all men have lest they be a sociopath, and what the bible calls a Godly Conscience.
---David on 11/6/21


David:

A woman once asked illusionist Penn Jillette, "If you don't believe in God, what stops you from killing all you want?"

He replied, "I DO kill all I want - and the amount I want is ZERO."

He went on to point out the really frightening people are those who live moral lives, but claim the only thing that keeps them from being depraved monsters is the fear of God - because this means they have no internal moral compass, and have to rely on one being forcibly imposed from the outside, as opposed to others who voluntarily choose a moral life without being coerced by a fear of an eternity in hell.

See Romans 2:14-15
---StrongAxe on 11/5/21


The issue is, many love their sin. And because many don't even believe in God they don't worry about consequences after death. Many don't even believe in hell or an after life.

But being sorry for sin doesn't save anyone. Many have a conscience and do feel bad for their sin, but still don't believe in Jesus Christ.

So let's be clear, only those who believe in Jesus FIRST are saved.

And that salvation promising the Indwelling Holy Spirit is continually putting to death the deeds of the flesh, aka our sin man. Romans 8:11-13. But first one has to have been baptized into CHRISTS death Romans 6 raised up together with Him and has surrendered our NEW CREATURE unto Righteousness....just as Romans 6 teach.
---kathr4453 on 11/5/21


All men do have a conscience, but when they sin, does everyone feel guilt before God?

Lets look at the extreme, the atheist. They may have a conscience when they sin against someone, but their guilt is before men, it is not before God.

And if they do not get caught in their sin, they will probably feel no guilt at all. This is true of both the atheist and the Christian.

David loved God, and this is why he grieved over his sin. A Christian who is in a relationship with God, like David, should feel guilt before God when they sin. It's like a person lies, calling in sick at work. Many feel no guilt, until they are caught out in public by someone they work with.
---David on 11/5/21


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David, where do you get your understanding? Having a conscience and feeling sorrow for sin comes from our conscience. Men had a conscience before Jesus died and rose again as we still do after.

King David was grieved of his sin long before Jesus was born, died and rose again.
---kathr4453 on 11/4/21


Now the question is...What did Paul mean by Grace...In his "Not by Works, But by Grace" teachings. To answer this, we must understand why God changed the Law.

(Hebrews 10: 1-4) tells us.
Basically it says, The animal sacrifice required under the Law of Moses for the forgiveness of sin, did not cause the sinner to grieve, grieve when they sinned against God.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, causes us to feel guilty when we sin. This guilt will be felt in our conscience, our very hearts, when we confess our sins before God. And this, a guilty conscience, is what changes the heart. Don't believe me..Confess your sin before almighty God...and see what the blood sacrifice of Christ does to your heart.
---David on 11/3/21


Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I imagine if you become a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST , you also get that NEW HEART.

If not it would be like putting an old patch on a new cloth, or New wine in an old wine skin. The new patch goes on the new cloth and the new wine goes into NEW wine skins .

BEHOLD ALL THINGS BECOME NEW.

I think this is difficult for many people to grasp. It might seem like our broken hearts are being healed, but the healing comes WITH A BRAND NEW HEART. AKA A HEART TRANSPLANT. Paul reiterates in 2 Corinthians 3.
---kathr4453 on 11/3/21


"Not by Works, but by Grace"
What did Paul mean by these words? Did he mean Christians are not accountable for their sin?

Back when God gave Moses the Law, God gave Moses laws of things they should do...and things they should not do. The things they should do, were called "Works". And that those things which man should not do, is called the Sin. (1 John 3:4)..Transgression of the Law.

So in effect, there are two parts of the Law. When Paul said we are "Not under Law, but under Grace", he was not referring to the transgression of the Law, Sin....The Ten Commandments. Paul was only talking about, The "Works" of the Law.
(Galatians 2:16)
---David on 11/2/21


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For the heart of this people has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed, lest they should see***.
(Acts 28:27)
---David on 10/29/21

2Ch 7:14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray, and seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, ***

Psa 94:3. LORD, how long ***?

Psa 94:5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage.
Psa 94:6 They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder the fatherless.
Psa 94:7 Yet they say, The LORD shall not see, neither shall the God of Jacob regard it.
Psa 94:9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?
---Trav on 11/1/21


Genesis 2:9 - And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every Tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food : the tree of life also in the midst of the garden , and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form light , and create darkness: I Make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things .
---RichardC on 10/31/21


Joseph,
Look at it this way. Sin did not come from God, it came from Satan, Gods enemy. Sin is much like a disease, a disease of the heart, a disease for which God has given us a cure.

To heal your heart, you must accept Jesus as your Lord...and if you make him your Lord, you will learn how to love, and Love will change your heart. Which is the sole reason God changed the Law, to a Law which can heal the heart.

For the heart of this people has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(Acts 28:27)
---David on 10/29/21


I agree with WIVV
God created the first man, Adam, without sin. And since that first sin, God has afforded us every opportunity to redeem ourselves. With the children of Abraham, God used the Law to curb their sin, but the children of Abraham STILL, could not overcome sin.

The question...
What made Abraham righteous in the eyes of God, and the generations who came after, unrighteous?

It was the heart!!
Abraham loved God...and that's what made him righteous in Gods eyes. Abraham was not perfect..But he loved God...and because he loved God...and for this reason...he was able to keep Gods Laws. And that's why God did not need to put him under the Law.
---David on 10/28/21


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You are accusing the wrong person! God made a perfect creation, it was Adam who chose to disobey God and in doing so separate himself, and human kind, from God. It was God who made it possible for us to reunite with Him, through Christ. But again, it is a choice that each person has to make before they die. Read what the moderator said
---WIVV on 10/26/21


You are accusing the wrong person! God made a perfect creation, it was Adam who chose to disobey God and in doing so separate himself, and human kind, from God. It was God who made it possible for us to reunite with Him, through Christ. But again, it is a choice that each person has to make before they die. Read what the moderator said
---WIVV on 10/25/21


Romans 9:18 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires. how do I reconcile this when God torments people for eternity in hell?
---Joseph_Andrew_Budinsky on 10/21/21

Gonna say something no modern church will or brainwashed followers.
Ask GODs Son for guidance and teaching. Matt 23:8-10.
Hell was translated from different Hebrew and greek words. Sheol below means grave, death. There is Hades, Gehenna. Look up and apply the original meanings in verse reading.

Escape the money grubber preachers in Modern Churches.

2Sa 22:6. The sorrows of hell, me,

2Sa 22:7. In my distress I called upon, the LORD, and cried, to my God: and he did hear, my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.
---Trav on 10/22/21


Ephesians 3:9 - And to make all men see what the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:10 - To the intent that now unto the principality and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Ephesians 3:11 - According to the eternal power, which he purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord.
---RichardC on 10/21/21


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So Joseph, do you have a faith or are you an agnostic or atheist? Maybe we should start there. You do seem to be utilizing some scripture. But the verses you pulled out here are what Calvinists run to when arguing why they are the elect and everyone else is going to hell. So I'll be up front I'm not a Calvinist, and also believe those verses aren't talking about salvation. Those verses if read correctly are referring to God's ELECT ISRAEL, for service.

God has mercy on everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord. And God's mercy was demonstrated when He gave His only begotten son to die in you place so you can have eternal life. Sounds like an AWESOME GOD TO ME.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/21


Romans 9:18 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." God has full control over the human heart. Logically God's sovereignty should equate to responsibility being the creator and sustainer. how do I reconcile this when God torments people for eternity in hell? Do we just accept this by faith and trust we can't have all the answers?
---Joseph_Andrew_Budinsky on 10/21/21


Yes GOD ALLOWED, also known as FREE WILL. I don't see God creating a bunch of robots, whether Angels or man an anything amazing. And artificial love and worship is the epitome of a narcissis.

God created with the free will to freely choose Life or Death. He didn't force sin on anyone, and isn't forcing salvation on anyone. And He didn't create man in a broken state. He created Adam and Eve perfect. They chose to do what God said not to do. You can't blame God for their choice.

But RIGHT THEN God promised a redeemer. AWESOME.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/21


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