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Why do some folks think Christ in them in obeying God is less effective than them obeying God without Christ in them? Isn't this why the Old Covenant was replaced with the New?

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 ---kathr4453 on 1/2/22
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David, so what part here do you see as sinless perfection? You don't understand WE DIE TO SIN. Sin dies not die, our OLD MAN is crucified with Christ and the NEW MAN walks in the spirit and not in the flesh.

In God's eyes David we are ALL spiritually dead. All born to Adam are already dead in trespasses and sin. Paul in Roman's 7 is addressing JEWS who think keeping the law will keep them sinless. Paul is saying NO NO NO. The LAW Exposes sin within.

Roman's 7 is reiterating Roman's 6. But is stated so Jews under the law can grasp the truth.

Only JESUS CAN DELIVER YOU FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH BY OUR BEING RISEN UP WITH HIM A NEW CREATURE and walking in the Spirit as Roman's 8 concludes.
---kathr4453 on 1/23/22


A final DEATH BLOW is our physical death.
---kathr4453a


Kathrine
Paul says below, The commandment which was ordained to bring life, brought him Death. So this would mean, if what you say is True and what I say is a Lie, according to your statement, Paul must have written (Romans 7:9-10) after he died...after his Physical Death.

For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died, and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
(Romans 7:9-10)


You have stirred our curiosity.
Do your teachers believe Paul wrote all his epistles after he died, or just Romans?
If so, who was his Ghost writer?
---David on 1/23/22


Ok so then David saying he has witnessed deathbed salvation is impossible. Seeing according to his understanding no one can know if that person has had that final blow to sin can they...except for David who thinks he's god and can see into another's heart.

But I DIE DAILY ,does not mean what David thinks it means. Paul never said "I DIE DAILY until I've reached that final death blow of fresh and self, and THEN I know I'm saved being sinless" .

I DIE DAILY IS our obedience of faith DAILY . ALWAYS BEARING ABOUT IN OUR BODIES THE DYING OF CHRIST SO THAT THE LIFE OF CHRIST IS MANIFEST.


A final DEATH BLOW is our physical death.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/22


StrongAxe
Salvation is instantaneous.
Death to sin is like having cancer, cancer kills us a little bit everyday, but death, when it comes, is instantaneous.

This was what Paul meant by..Dying a little each day.
Did death come each day?
No, he died a little each day, but when death came, the final blow...it was instant.

If you sin, you are not saved. Sin is your sign, death to the old man has not taken place. You champion the doctrine, you will continue to sin after this death has occurred. This is why I know you are not saved. I do not say it to discourage, but to encourage you to seek the truth. Not though me or anyone else, but through the Holy Spirit.
---David on 1/22/22


but in my experience it took approximately 6 months///

Here is the problem, David judges everyone according to his experience, not according to the WORD OF GOD. NO scripture even remotely says salvation takes approximately 6 months.

Another contradiction of David's is he says he has witnessed death bed salvation.

So which one is true? Does David remember from day to day what he says here? Every day is a different story.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/22




David, no scripture says Paul was saved sometime in that three years. Your trying to force Pauls salvation into your doctrine, not scripture. First you say God Chooses who he will saved, based on achieving sinless perfection. Yet we see God CHOSE PAUL , while he was still a sinner.

Paul realized on the road to Damascus that Jesus was in fact THE CHRIST WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD, calling Him LORD.

Unsaved people don't preach Christ crucified and risen as Paul did immediately, also showing Romans 10:9-10 to be the qualifications for salvation.

It's God who justifies, not you David.
Salvation isn't achieved through works or self effort, but FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/22


David:

You wrote: I can tell from your words you have not been saved.

Which words are those, exactly? Please be specific.

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - check.
Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." - check.

Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judge", yet you are here, judging my salvation. Does that mean YOU aren't saved, because you're disobeying Jesus in at least this regard?

but in my experience it took approximately 6 months

So you agree that salvation is not instantaneous.
---StrongAxe on 1/21/22


To say Paul was not saved until 3 years after his conversion is saying...Kathr

Kathrine
Did I say, It took Paul three years to be saved? No... I said he was saved during those three years.
"Paul is writing about his past, a time during the 3 years"
How long did it take? I don't know how long it took with Paul, but in my experience it took approximately 6 months. I would imagine Paul took much less time.

Also, you presume a lot by telling me to do something that I already did 46 years ago.---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
Presuming?
I can tell from your words you have not been saved. But fill us in, what makes, you believe, you were saved 46 years ago?
Your testimony...
---David on 1/21/22


To say Paul was not saved until 3 years after his conversion is saying Cornelius too was not saved at the time he heard the Gospel when the Holy Spirit fell on them and was baptized. Yet the whole of Corneluis was that he Was saved after hearing the Gospel. Now if DAVID says, but yes Peter and the Apostles were there, so they were saved, again is a strange teaching that ONLY the original APOSTLES could decide if someone was saved or only they could preach the Gospel. If that's the case no one is saved today. Apollo was not an apostle however preached the Gospels where others were saved.

Faith comes BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD, NOT HEARING THE WORD OF THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES.

Paul preached THE WORD OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 1/20/22


David, you have no proof or scripture to back up your last statements concerning Paul. He certainly received the Holy Spirit before your three year timeline. He also immediately preached Jesus Christ right after. To say he wasn't saved is nonsense, and AGAIN YOUR OPINION, NOT FACT.

No one is said to be saved because they joined the other apostles. No scripture says..YOU ARE NOT SAVED UNTIL YOU JOIN THE OTHER APOSTLES. If that were so, DAVID is not saved.

Where do you come up with your nonsense. Please show another teacher who teaches this.....your one man opinion is not valid.
---kathr4453 on 1/20/22




David:

Romans 7:14-17
14: I *am* carnal
15: I *do* which I allow not, i *do not, I hate that *do* I.
16: I *do*
17: I *do it*, sin that *dwelleth* in me.
These are all PRESENT TENSE, not past tense. Paul is not writing about the past, but the present.

Also, you presume a lot by telling me to do something that I already did 46 years ago.
---StrongAxe on 1/20/22


Was Paul not saved, born again, and filled with the Spirit when he wrote his epistles?---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
In Romans, Paul is writing about his past, a time during the 3 years after he went blind on the road to Damascus, but before he joined the Apostles. He was saved when he wrote it, but he was not saved, during the time of which he wrote.

Many people believe Paul was immediately saved, after he went blind on the road to Damascus. Then went merrily on his way preaching the word of God. They forget about....the 3 years he spent...alone before he joined the other Apostles.

Who taught Paul?
Did he learn from men..or from God?
Read it for yourself in (Galatians 1:11-19) and do what he did.
---David on 1/20/22


David, another question....where exactly in Matthew Mark Luke and John is the explicit teaching of the New Covenant Trav posts here often. The exact words in Hebrews 8-10.

And what part of the New Covenant do you disagree with. Seeing Paul did not write Hebrews, even if you think so, there's no proof, but the Author of Hebrews clearly shows in Hebrews 10 something Jesus didn't specifically bullet point in Matthew Mark Luke and John. So do you also disgard Hebrews? Hebrews 10..A NEW AND LIVING WAY...THROUGH THE VEIL, THAT IS TO SAY HIS FLESH.

So what your really saying is you only believe Matthew Mark Luke and John? So where did the author of Hebrews get their info?
---kathr4453 on 1/19/22


David, you keep saying Paul's doctrine disagrees with Jesus. It's not my doctrine David, I just post scripture.

You need to be specific how Jesus and Paul disagree . And you need to state SPECIFICALLY what exactly you THINK I'm in disagreement with. You keep making that accusation but have never backed up with proof.

Why do you think Paul's teachings disagree with Jesus? That's the real wresting here.

And your paranoid accusations again are simply your own thoughts. No one hates you. Are you also making up your own thoughts as to what I believe? Where do you say WITH PROOF that I interpret Paul's teaching against Jesus. PAUL WAS TAUGHT BY JESUS. YOU WERE NOT.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/22


David:

Reuben brought up Romans 7:14-15:
"For I do not do what I want, but I do very thing I hate...because of the sin that dwells in me."

Was Paul not saved, born again, and filled with the Spirit when he wrote his epistles? If so, how then did he have sin that STILL dwelt with in him? The answer is that the transformation that Christ does to us is not an instantaneous event, but a gradual process that takes an entire lifetime.

This is why Paul is constantly making concessions (e.g. with regards to eating meat) because he knows that doing so might cause new believers to stumble. How is it possible for that to happen? Because even though they believed, their transformation was not yet complete.
---StrongAxe on 1/19/22


Kathrine
Again...your doctrine disagrees with Jesus...not Paul. You simply use a few verses from Pauls epistles in which to weave your tangled web.

You hate me, because it's so easy for me to show folks the absurdity of your false doctrines. Absurdities, I reveal, in the hope folks will feel too foolish to follow. I will give your teachers credit though, The most powerful argument against their lies, is the Truth. And in your eyes, they were able to toss it aside.

That Truth which comes from The Gospel of Jesus Christ, written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Yours is the only doctrine I have ever heard of, which has done this. Truly an Amazing feat!!
---David on 1/19/22


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David* How does one go about knowing he is guided by the Holy Spirit?---Ruben

(Romans 9:1 & 2)

Paul also said about his conscience in Romans 7:14-15 " For I do not do what I want, but I do very thing I hate...because of the sin that dwells in me."

David* The early church taught this, because they knew the answer to this question. The Holy Spirit teachers us right from wrong....through our conscience. The Spirit Teaches us...The Law of Christ. (John 14:21)

Yes the HS does, but it will not interfere with our free will.The Early Church did not go by conscience but by what Jesus said to them .." Will teach you everything and remind you of ALL I HAVE SAID TO YOU." JHN 14:26
---Ruben on 1/18/22


Too funny David, because this is the third time I've corrected you on 2 Corinthians 13:1. First you didn't post the entire verse, second you've taken out of context, and 3rd, was addressed to the Corinthians about their carnal behavior. It has nothing to do with David using the verse to push his false doctrine, or insisting Romans 6-8 disagrees with Jesus in any way shape or form.

Paul explains 2 Cor 13:1 in verses 2-5. Something YOU disagree with. Paul said too...when I am weak THEN I AM STRONG. 2 Cor 12:10 SEE immediately after in ch 13 Paul reiterates this in vs 2-5.

Before throwing verses sound David LEARN WHAT THEY MEAN FIRST.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/22


5Examine Yourselves whether you're in the faith, PROVE YOURSELVES.KNOW YE NOT YOURSELVES HOW JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, UNLESS YOU BE FOUND A REOROBATE. 2 Cor 13:1-4 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. IS**DEUT 19:15** 2I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time, being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 4For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/22


In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.(2 Corinthians 13:1)

Kathrine
These are Pauls words above, not my commentary. Just One of many examples, of clearly written scripture, used by multiple teachers in the Bible. Scripture you simply dismiss....

Put me in my place...Show us someone else in the Bible...Pauls witnesses...teaching the,"No Works" doctrine, the doctrine you claim Paul taught.
I will leave you this Example of multiple witnesses, teaching the same thing I teach.
(Matthew 16:27) (Romans 2:6) (Revelation 20:13)

See how easy it is for someone who teaches the truth? And Notice...I give specific verses.
---David on 1/17/22


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David. I've never molded Paul's letters into snatching. I simply state scriptures the same as you do. You post a scripture and add your own commentary of what you THINK IT SAYS and then bully those who point out you you have embellished the verse. You've dine this multiple times with your John 14 verse. First you claim it means sinless perfection, now you say it means to follow your own conscience.

You also claim you are given the Holy Spirit before you are saved. However Roman's 6-8 state otherwise.

Projecting your own shortcomings on to another is clear here.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/22


They break the Law over and over...and they feel nothing.
Why?
Because they do not walk in the Light.
---David on 1/13/22

Their laws were never written in the heart and mind.
If one believes GOD, then this verse below is found accurate to this very day. Has to be, if one believes.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 1/16/22


Why have you always argued against Roman's 6-8?---kathr4453

Kathrine
My argument has never been with Romans....or anything Paul wrote. My argument is with doctrines like yours, who think they can mold Paul's letters into their own Truths, without any witnesses to corroborate these teachings. And which furthermore, Diametrically Oppose what Jesus taught.

Now, I will let you prove me wrong, in front of all your followers. Show me where Jesus Christ or any of his disciples taught the, "Not by Works, but by Grace" doctrine as you teach it.
Humiliate me...we're waiting!!

And then I will teach it, with multiple witnesses...including Paul.





---David on 1/16/22


David, you've had plenty of opportunity to say you believe Roman's 6-8, but have instead posted many comments denouncing over the past 2 years just as you have skirted around the DEITY OF CHRIST. He's not a deity.

All one has to do is go back and read your comments to know who the liar is David.

So prove yourself and tell us when YOU OBEYED Roman's 6-8 and what that was like.

Why have you always argued against Roman's 6-8?
---kathr4453 on 1/15/22


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David doesn't believe Roman's 6-8.
Beware of false teachers.
---kathr4453


Ahhh...another lie from Kathrine. Her words have no Truth, so she is left with lies, lies she had learned from her Father.
As Jesus foretold...

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
(John 8:44)
---David on 1/15/22


Ruben
Sin separates us from the light of God. Without the light of God, we walk in darkness. When we confess our sins before God, and ask for forgiveness, God forgives the sin, if we meet the conditions set forth by Jesus in (Matthew 6:14-15).

When our sins are forgiven, the Light Of God is instantly restored. When we are in the Light of God...our conscience becomes sensitized to the Evil in the world. It's as if, we can now see the world, through the eyes of God.

No need to prove what I say is true, because I'm sure you have experienced this at least once in your life. Only now you know what that experience was all about.
---David on 1/14/22


The early church did not teach "let your conscience be your guide".

To be taught of the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit pointing to Jesus Christ. John 15.

Man was given a conscience when created. So man knows right from wrong. However we (those now saved) we see in Hebrews says our old conscience has been purged from dead works by the blood of Jesus Christ to Serve the living God. We are given THE MIND OF CHRIST...

So for one to be lead by the Spirit they first need to be saved and risen with Christ just as Roman's 6-8 teach us.

David doesn't believe Roman's 6-8, always arguing against and seems to say he has found another way around the CROSS.

Beware of false teachers.
---kathr4453 on 1/14/22


How does one go about knowing he is guided by the Holy Spirit?---Ruben

(Romans 9:1 & 2)

Ruben
"Let your conscience be your guide." The early church taught this, because they knew the answer to this question. The Holy Spirit teachers us right from wrong....through our conscience. The Spirit Teaches us...The Law of Christ. (John 14:21)

Does our conscience bother us when we are doing Good?
No.
It only bothers us, when we are not doing the will of God. The conscience in most people, is very weak. They break the Law over and over...and they feel nothing.
Why?
Because they do not walk in the Light.
---David on 1/13/22


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The foundation is Christ. Now Paul tells us we build upon that foundation either wood hay and stubble or Gold , silver and precious stone. So I believe correct doctrine is what we are building here. We're not saved by this Doctrine, but by faith in Jesus Christ, but if man-made traditions and man-made etc is built upon it will burn up. But the person is still saved. Others who have built correctly will be rewarded.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/22


Well, scripture does say that you must confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him up from the dead.

Do you have another definition for the term "accepting Christ"?
---Rambo on 1/13/22


So if a authority tells a person that you do not have to obey GOD in helping the poor. That makde it correct?

The Bible is misapplied by many people. Also I disagree on some points with other protestants. But they teach much of the same truth I teach. So we can have discussions. But to put human traditions above the Bible. It opposed by the Bible.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 3:15-17
---Samuelbb7 on 1/13/22


Ruben:

You wrote: That's because they believe in the Bible Alone doctrine, which is no where in scripture!

Not really. Most cults teach false doctrines because they have their own doctrine - whether it comes from their own experience, or "revelations" from their so-called "prophets" and teachers, that they consider more important than the Bible itself. Bible-only groups are necessarily closer to the truth, because if they actually hold scripture sacred, they can't depart far from it, as other groups do (e.g. Branch Davidians, Jonestown's People's Temple, Mormons, etc.). They may be as misguided as Pharisees, but they don't go off the deep end.
---StrongAxe on 1/12/22


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We're exercised to know both good and evil. God will put you through a battery of tests so you'll learn the difference between the leading of the Holy Spirit and, Satan who loves more than anything to confuse you or tempt you etc. Jesus was tested 40 days was also for our example of OVERCOMING THE EVIL ONE.

David had never testified to this and because his faith has never been tried and tested may not know he has been led by a counterfeit spirit.

James 1 testifies to this testing and it's results. We don't overcome SIN, we OVERCOME the evil one...as 1St John show is part of our growth and maturity. The TESTING OF YOUR FAITH is something every born again Christian goes through. If you haven't, check to see you are IN THE FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/22


David * Meaning...there are thousands of doctrines around the globe, all divided against each other. Each one believing they are teaching the Truth.
Because they all think they have the Truth, and all the others churches teach a false doctrine.

That's because they believe in the Bible Alone doctrine, which is no where in scripture!

David *You will not know who is led by the Holy Spirit, unless the Holy Spirit is leading You.

How does one go about knowing he is guided by the Holy Spirit?


David * The Bible was never intended to be an instruction manual, to be used without a teacher.

Those teachers were the Apostles and their successors, " He who listen to you listens to me." LK 10:16
---Ruben on 1/12/22


David:

But if you have a spirit that is telling you that something is The Truth, how do you know whether or not that spirit is, in fact, the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit? The fact that so many weird cults exists (including may Christian-based cults) demonstrates that a very large number of people are unable to make this distinction.

One way to know is, if that spirit tells you something that goes against the Bible, one of them is wrong - and guess which one that is?
---StrongAxe on 1/12/22


Ruben
Meaning...there are thousands of doctrines around the globe, all divided against each other. Each one believing they are teaching the Truth. Look in any town and you will see many different churches.
Do they worship together?
No.
Why not?
Because they all think they have the Truth, and all the others churches teach a false doctrine.
You will not know who is led by the Holy Spirit, unless the Holy Spirit is leading You.The Bible was never intended to be an instruction manual, to be used without a teacher. And if that teacher isn't Gods Holy Spirit, you won't know who teaches the Truth.
---David on 1/12/22


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David I'm still waiting for answers to my questions concerning the Deity of Christ you have skirted around. I still want an answer.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/22


What did folks use before the Bible?
They only had Gods Holy Spirit, where there is One Truth..One Way.
The Bible is a amazing, but only when it is used properly.
---David on 1/10/22

David

What do you mean by one truth and one way? So, many here have said they are led but the Holy Spirit including you , how do we know who is really led by the Spirit? Who or what determines if the Bible is use properly? Sorry for the many questions your statement is confusing to me!
---Ruben on 1/11/22


David, the Holy Scriptures have been around for thousands of years. You confuse that with the NT. The Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. What they were searching was the OT Scriptures.

No scripture says to accept the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe JESUS IS THE CHRIST , GOD IN THE FLESH who died for our sin and have repented. Acts 2:38-40.

I've received ALL of Jesus, as CHRIST IN ME consists of the RISEN CHRIST AND SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN ME, changing me from Glory to Glory. Cojlossians 1:24-27, 2 Corinthians 3... THE WHOLE CHAPTER, Romans 6-8. Is how Christ is in you AND how the Holy Spirit is in you. Actually Colossians 3:1-4 consists of the WHOLE TRINITY.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/22


David:

The Old Testament is much older than Jesus (i.e. much more than 2000 years old), and the New Testament has been around for almost 2000 years. It's a common conceit among many English-speaking evangelicals that the Bible somehow miraculously sprang out of nothing in 1611, and there was nothing before that.

Another problem is that many churches emphasize personal experience over scripture, and say "The Bible may say one thing, but the Holy Spirit tells me something else". Since God is not the author of confusion, they may be hearing from some spirit, but it probably isn't the one they think it is. Many cults are born this way.
---StrongAxe on 1/10/22


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What does one have to do to ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST?---kathr4453

Kathrine
It means to accept the sacrifice he has offered us, by using his body and his blood for the forgiveness of sin. So that we can walk in the light and not in darkness.
It means to accept the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift he has given us, to guide us through the darkness.

Most Christians today are not led by the Holy Spirit, but by teachers who are led by the Bible. The Holy Spirit has been with Christians for thousands of years..The Bible?...A few hundred years
What did folks use before the Bible?
They only had Gods Holy Spirit, where there is One Truth..One Way.
The Bible is a amazing, but only when it is used properly.
---David on 1/10/22


Wouldn't Jesus be illegitimate if God divorced Israel. Israel is the wife of God. Aka THE WOMAN seen in Revelation 12. And the Woman and child in Rev 12, the child is Christ. I think we can all agree here. So if God divorced Israel, Jesus would be an illegitimate child wouldn't He? Unless men think they still can have their way with a wife they divorced.

So IN CHRIST a BETTER COVENANT WAS MADE. God didn't take an illegitimate Son to make a better Covenant with Israel.

Trav has no idea what he is posting here. He thinks he does, and that's sad.

The promise of the Messiah began in Genesis 3:15. And Genesis 3:15 is also continued into Rev 12, and Rev 22:16
---kathr4453 on 1/10/22


Trav, you need to post those scriptures in order. Jer 3:14 comes AFTER Jer3:1-4, proving God did not divorce Israel.

Plus divorce is not a death as David showed in Romans 7.

In Jeremiah 3 we see after God states vs 1-8He still refers to Israel as those He is married to.

Romans 7 is concerning the LAW. THEY HAD TO DIE TO THE Law to he married to another, which is Christ. Rom 7:4

Now we all know you will answer back in sarcastic vile verbage hissing like a snake at women who correct you, but that's OK. As long as OTHERS see your false teaching is all that matters
---kathr4453 on 1/9/22


(Romans 7:2)
For the woman who hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth, but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of the husband.
---David on 1/8/22

Paul understood the OT, why a New Marriage Covenant with the same people was created.
Jer 3:14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD, for I am married unto you:
Jer 3:20Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:1-8 I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
---Trav on 1/9/22


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I didn't ask you if Jesus was THE FATHER. I've always found that if someone answered that way they were deflecting.

John 1 says ...IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH.

One God David. not "a" deity .

So please answer again. Do you believe Before Jesus was made FLESH,He was/is THE WORD WHO WAS/IS GOD?

If you don't David, no matter how you try to deflect your answer, you do not believe Jesus is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, and since you don't, have not made Jesus Lord. Only by the Holy Spirit can you say Jesus IS LORD. LORD MEANING GOD. ....NOT LORD MEANING THE FATHER.
---kathr4453 on 1/9/22


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

David, do you believe this verse is prophecy about Jesus?
---Beena on 1/9/22


David:

In other words, perhaps, but there is no scripture that uses the words "accept Christ" or "accept Jesus" - which is a common ritual formula used by evangelical protestant churches.

And, as you yourself said, merely "accepting Christ" does not actually make him your lord. Jesus himself said many would come to him on the last day and say "Lord! Lord! Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name?" and he would tell them "I never knew you!". Many go through the ritual of "accepting Christ" without that making many meaningful change in their lives. Like Pharisees, whom Jesus accused of going all over to make converts, just as destined for hell as they were.
---StrongAxe on 1/8/22


To Accept Jesus Christ is again MAINSTREAM Christianity jargon.

David although you insist you do not like or believe in mainstream Christianity you keep using their jargon.

Also please give explicit detail on what exactly ACCEPTING CHRIST entails. What does one have to do to ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST?
---kathr4453 on 1/8/22


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Now interestingly I have pressed David for a couple years here concerning his belief in the DEITY OF CHRIST.---kathr4453

To be clear, No....I do not believe Jesus is God the Father. I believe Jesus is the Son of God...period, which is what the Bible teaches, which would make him a deity.
---David on 1/8/22


I don't believe there is any scripture that says we must "accept Christ" StrongAxe

StrongAxe
That's the summary of the entire New Testament. If sin is your master (John 8:34) and you want to change masters, don't you need to accept Jesus to be your new master? If not, please explain how you make Jesus, Lord, without accepting him?

Now by simply accepting him in that role, does not make him your master. This obedience is much like adultery, which brings death to the old man. When dead...then Jesus can become your new master.

(Romans 7:2)
For the woman who hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth, but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of the husband.
---David on 1/8/22


So another thought here....To make Jesus Lord is to first acknowledge Jesus is GOD. He IS The Lord God Almighty. But I don't hear anyone say we must make GOD GOD . Because GOD IS GOD, AND another word for GOD is LORD.

Now interestingly I have pressed David for a couple years here concerning his belief in the DEITY OF CHRIST. And he has refused to do so, siding with the JW's and MORMONS that Jesus is not GOD, but a god or Michael the Arc-Angel.

So, again David, if you have made Jesus LORD, declare here JESUS IS GOD IN THE FLESH. If you can't....then YOU have not made Jesus LORD, as scripture defines LORD AKA LORD GOD ALMIGHTY .
---kathr4453 on 1/8/22


Ruben
!

Not that it's totally false, we do need to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Problem is, people only see him as their Savior...never making him their Lord.

---David on 1/7/22

I myself also get in a hurry to write but I seem to miss many points!

Scripture itself shows who even those you say Lord also miss the point. Case in point is the verse you quote Matt 7: 22-23.

In Romans 10:13 It reads " Everyone who calls on the name LORD will be saved." They will then say , see that all you need . But a few chapters more Paul tells those who already call on his name , that their "Salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed." Romans 13:11
---Ruben on 1/7/22


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I don't believe we MAKE JESUS LORD, is in scripture either. Jesus IS LORD.

But I believe the correct thought should be that we surrender our lives to His Lordship. But again, that comes after we are risen together with Him, and is stated in Romans 6. It's just another word for YIELD YOUR MEMBERS TO GOD ALIVE FROM THE DEAD.

But I find it interesting David rejects Romans 6. Does David think his teaching is superior to Paul? RED FLAG FOLKS.

All these catch PHRAISES David says here , he didn't first think up on his own. He's just repeating SOME MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY TEACHINGS that he also rejects at the same time.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/22


David:

You wrote: Not that it's totally false, we do need to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Problem is, people only see him as their Savior...never making him their Lord.

I don't believe there is any scripture that says we must "accept Christ". If there is, can you point it out?

I don't go to a church. The People as Great!! But listening to the teachings are like fingernails on a chalkboard.

Doesn't that mean that the teachers are causing you to stumble (i.e. forsaking assembly), so they aren't free of sin? And what about everyone else? How many people do you personally know who have been 100% sinless since they were saved?
---StrongAxe on 1/7/22


I believe that you need a relationship with God, but no where does it say you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to be saved.---Ruben on 1/6/22

Ruben
Sorry brother, I was in a hurry when I replied and didn't read through your whole post. I totally agree..and great point!!

Not that it's totally false, we do need to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Problem is, people only see him as their Savior...never making him their Lord.

StrongAxe
Your right..I didn't answer your question. Thought I did, but after paring it down to fit, I removed the answer. I don't go to a church. The People as Great!! But listening to the teachings are like fingernails on a chalkboard.
---David on 1/7/22


"I never knew you",. .

---David/22

I believe that you need a relationship with God, but no where does it say you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to be saved! It reads that they said "Did we not prophesy IN THY NAME." Jesus goes on and said " I never knew you". not because they had no relationship with him, after all they prophesy in his name.But only the one who DOES thy will of the Father in Heaven. When ask What shall I do to enter Heaven, Jesus never said have a relationship with me but instead said Keep my commandments!
In Luke 19:9 Zacchaeus the tax collector, said he will pay back all of his wrong doing, thats when Jesus says " Salvation has come to this house."
---Ruben on 1/6/22


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Ruben
You need to use a little deductive reasoning. Now here is another Example...
(Matthew 7:22-23) Many will say to Me in that Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

"I never knew you",..this is something you say, to someone, with whom you don't have a relationship. So this clearly shows you must have a relationship with Jesus to be saved...else he will say..."I never knew you".
Understand?
If not, try reading what Jesus taught in the Gospels, then you may be able to see it for yourself.
---David on 1/6/22


(John 14:23-24) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him .

Can any of this happen, if we are not in a relationship with God?
---David on 1/5/22

So there no scripture that says we are saved through a relationship with God!

You need to Love one another, forgive one another, be born again with water and Spirit.

Remine in him and confess our sins.In Hebrews 12:14 it says that we will not see the Lord unless we are holy, and that we have to strive for this holiness.

So we have to continue to do these things in other to stay with God!

But there is a scripture that shows you can have a personnel relationship with him.

JHN 6:52-54"
---Ruben on 1/5/22


David:

We are saved through faith, not doctrine. In Matthew 25, Jesus rewards righteous sheep because they show love to others - NOT because they were in the right church, or knew the right doctrine. That they even needed to ask him WHY shows they didn't know Matthew 25.

I've met several people in my life with that glow ancient artists painted as halos around saints. One was even a Jehovah's Witness.

I didn't ask about mainstream churches. I asked if YOU know ANY churches (e.g. yours) where 100% of members are 100% perfect and never sin.
---StrongAxe on 1/4/22


Where in scripture tells us we are saved through personal relational with God?--Ruben

(John 14:23-24) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him. He that loveth Me not, keepeth not My sayings. And the Word which you hear is not Mine, but the Fathers who sent Me.

Ruben
According to Jesus, Who loves him?
His servants.
And what is Gods reaction to those who serve Jesus?
He loves them.
What benefit do we receive from his love?
They will make their home with us.

Can any of this happen, if we are not in a relationship with God?
---David on 1/5/22


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This says nothing about dying on ones deathbed. Also this will happen at the judgement seat of Christ.

The foundation is Christ. And how we build upon the foundation will one day be revealed by fire. You see WORKS are for rewards not salvation. But this has nothing to do with a deathbed salvation, and did not answer Strongaxe question about sinless perfection.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Please read the whole chapter.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/22


We are saved as individuals, through a personal relationship with God.

David..

Where in scripture tells us (we are saved through personal relational with God)?

Paul clearly taught the whole point of being born again, is to rid the body of sin. But if the body of sin has died, why do folks continue to sin?
If the Born Again continue to sin after being Born Again...Whats the point of being Born Again?

Paul also said Romans 7:15-20 - I do not understand what I do. For what ...

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. "


---David on 1/4/22
---Ruben on 1/4/22


In David's belief he says folks are saved on their death bed's but with his works salvation, how can he be sure God has saved them according to their works. Is David now the final judge of someone's works and salvation?

Also is saved the same as achieving sinless perfection. So David knows when another has achieved this sinless perfection. Plus David is saying everyone is lost except him and those he has pronounced saved. AMAZING.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/22


Do you know ANY church where 100% of the people in it have never sinned after being saved, not even once?---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
We are saved as individuals, through a personal relationship with God. I doubt anyone in a mainstream church is saved, because they have been led astray...by a false doctrine. Which are like fingernails on a chalkboard to the saved.

That's not to say God won't save them, though they followed a false doctrine. For I have personally witnessed folks saved on their DeathBeds....as mentioned in (1Corinthians 3:14-15).
These were good folks, who faithfully served Jesus most of their lives, but were taken in by a mainstream church.

My hope, is You and Kathrine are in that number.
---David on 1/4/22


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What I think David doesn't understand here is what is called the SECOND DEATH. VS THE FIRST RESURRECTION

Those who take their place in dying with Christ here and now will not experience the second death at the Great white Throne Judgement.

David also has misread Romans 6-8 thinking the first resurrection has already taken place. That's when believers will in fact be GLORIFIED AND RISEN AND SINLESS.

David thinks he's gone back to what Adam and Eve were before the fall. WRONG. Since David still gets sick, ages, and will one day die in his flesh, he has not.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/22


Why does David say there are only a few of you that have attained sinless perfection. How would you know that? I would have no clue about who claims they have and haven't, as I have never seen Christians sit around and talk about such things. It sounds narcissistic.

And to think, God sent His Son to die on a cross so only a few could achieve sinless perfection IN THEIR OLD SIN MAN RE THE FLESH like those in the OT. If we can so could they achieved sinless perfection?..RIGHT? Did God use Abraham, Noah, David, for example as models we can strive to be like? Where does it say they achieved sinless perfection ? Obeying and loving GOD in the OT is not less than obeying and loving Jesus in the New RIGHT?
---kathr4453 on 1/3/22


David:

Do you know ANY church where 100% of the people in it have never sinned after being saved, not even once? Where everyone is perfect, and perfect all the time? I sure don't. If you do, please tell us where this perfect church is.
---StrongAxe on 1/3/22


So David, why do you continue to sin? Is it because you have not obeyed Romans 6-8, OR HAVE obeyed Romans 6-8 and still found yourself sinning. Please share with us your experience of obeying Romans 6-8 and why God failed you.

The only way one can condemn Romans 6-8 is because they have not obeyed Romans 6-8.

Also if the NC promises to put God's spirit within you and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES, then going around accusing others of sin is another attack against God isn't it?
---kathr4453 on 1/3/22


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Romans 6:5-7) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, so we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this: that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If the body of sin has died, if folks have been resurrected in the likeness of Christ, why do they continue to sin, if the body of sin has died?

Paul clearly taught the whole point of being born again, is to rid the body of sin. But if the body of sin has died, why do folks continue to sin?
If the Born Again continue to sin after being Born Again...Whats the point of being Born Again?
---David on 1/3/22


Why do some folks think when they sin, they are obeying Christ? Why do some folks think Christ is in them, when they sin?
---David on 1/2/22


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